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How the barrier really threatens Arabs

If Palestinian lives are miserable now, that's only a preview of things to come if they are completely separated from the Israel they love to hate.
Arabs from Gaza and the West Bank argue that Israel can build a wall as high as it wants so long as it runs within the boundary line, and not one inch on the land they call Palestine.

Well, that's what they say. Had Prime Minister Ariel Sharon restricted the barrier to the Green Line, what are the chances that the Arabs would have been satisfied?

They would have probably found some excuse to oppose it and perhaps petition the International Court of Justice in the Hague, Netherlands, to order it dismantled. Sharon gave Yasser Arafat and his friends a ready excuse to fight the barrier when he extended it into the West Bank. The court gave Arabs what they wanted on Friday.

It does not make sense for the Arabs to obediently abide by the barrier no matter where it is built. It threatens them in two ways.

For terrorists, it leaves them with far fewer targets. They could only make their way from Jenin and other West Bank towns to murder Jews and others in Haifa, Netanya, etc., by crossing an unimpeded border into sovereign Israel.

However, they are now blocked by a barrier - mostly a fence but some of it a wall. That barrier stops them cold, usually. How can they possibly kill innocent people if they cannot travel to Israel proper?

This is frustrating. They cannot very well fight the Israelis if Israel cuts them off and refuses to fight. After all, a sure way to frustrate an enemy is to just decline to fight by keeping a safe distance from the would-be assailant.

All Gaza and West Bank Arabs - no matter how extreme or moderate - should worry about construction of the barrier if Israel should decide to separate altogether from them. That's the direction in which Israel is moving, and they know it.

The West Bank shares the longest border on dry land with Israel. How would a Palestinian state build a viable economy if the Arabs cannot do business with Israel? Separation could mean that Arabs will not be able to commute to Israel for jobs and that Arab businesses could not use Israeli roads to reach coastal ports.

Such a move would starve Arabs on the West Bank unless Jordan was willing to work with them, and that seems unlikely. If their lives are miserable now, that's only a preview of things to come if they are completely cut off from Israel.

The Arab leadership and their extremist followers essentially got what they asked for, anyway, when Sharon routed the barrier to include West Bank settlements. It is a public relations bonanza for them, and that is always more important than bettering the lives of their own people. Letting their people continue to suffer is well worth the price if they can harm Israel, even in terms of perception.

No matter where anyone stands on the route of the barrier, Arab extremists have been begging for it ever since they started this senseless war in September 2000. When Sharon ran for election as prime minister, Israeli voters had to choose between an incumbent, Ehud Barak, whom they deemed as ineffective, and Sharon, who many feared would be too heavy-handed.

Sharon must count the Arabs as his strongest campaigners. Without their ongoing terror war, Arab extremists could not have helped him more had they cast the votes themselves. Now their people are suffering even more with the barrier route, and they expect worldwide sympathy.

The Arabs, as a people, brought this on themselves and now they want Israel to pay for it.

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You are the Miserable One

Save it for some other site. Your lies are transparent and you are without logic of any kind.
Read Noam Chomsky for a start.

Barrier frustrates Arabs from murdering and pillaging

I mostly agree with this writer. I would add that the barrier does threaten the economic interests of the Palestinians---but then the Palestinians never had it so good as when they were under the Israeli occupation (the real one --- the one BEFORE the Oslo accords in 1994 which set up the PA as the administrative authority, a fore-runner to self-rule. Yes back in the good old days, the palestinians GNP grew 13% per year between 1967 and 1993. Once the PA took over, per capita income dropped by 35% by 1996. Things went to hell in a handbasket once Arafat launched his intifada against Israel. (Oh, and he blamed it on Sharon for walking up to the most holy site for the Jewish people smack dab in the middle of Jerusalem, the most holy city in the world for the jewish people. Thats like the pope walking into the Vatican. but I digress).

Since the Palestinian Arab economy is dependent on Israel's economy like a tick on a dog, the barrier is really going to make things suck bigtime for the Palestinians. I hope they turn around and blame their own leaders whose hate has led them to nothing but misery. But the current trend is to blame Israel for....EVERYTHING?

Evreem---back up what you say. Got facts? What is YOUR logic?

Sudan people. What about Sudan. Thats where the real victims are.

Ranking victims.

When you start ranking victims, all other arguments you make are meaningless to me. You need to re-examine your position, Becky.

Re: How the barrier really threatens Arabs

Israel's hands are not clean in regards to the decline of the Palestinian economy.

"Jerusalem, the most holy city in the world for the jewish people"...and the muslim and the christian.


Re: How the barrier really threatens Arabs

The cartoon shows a PLO (hamas, islamic jihad, alaks murderers brigade, tanzim, fatah ad nauseum) guy strapped with explosives...he's saying to a UN guy who is trying to break the "wall" with a pick-axe..."Hurry up, I have a bus to catch"...

Does anyone here remember Rwanda?

Response to Vinny:
Ranking victims is meaningless?
How about counting victims?
3,200 Palestinians dead and 1000 Israelis dead in 3 and a half years.
30,000 dead in Sudan in one year with another MILLION in the balance.

But to Vinny, this is "meaningless". I'll tell you what is meaningless. Vinny's continued preoccupation with villifying the Israelis while uncritically supporting those who are trying to slaughter them.

Has Vinny EVER interviewed a family member of an Israeli who was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber?

I stand by my positions. I've done the research and considered the arguments on all sides. All Vinnie can do when I raise these very real arguments is to call me names.

Al Aqsa Mosque: the tourist trap

Reply to noname:
YOU WROTE: "Israel's hands are not clean in regards to the decline of the Palestinian economy."

BECKY: The data suggests that once Israel stopped the occupation in 1994, the Palestinian economy declined rapidly. Now, due to the violent intifada, the tourist industry in Israel and the West Bank has diminished causing economic hardship to all.

I dont really see how Israel is culpable. Perhaps you can explain it. So far you have made an unsubstantiated assertion.

YOU WROTE: "Jerusalem, the most holy city in the world for the jewish people ...and the muslim and the christian."

Jerusalem is mentioned in the Torah 750 times but not even mentioned ONCE in the Koran. Muslims bow to Mecca, not Jerusalem. Mohammed never visited Jerusalem in his whole life.

The Islamic claim that Israel's Temple Mount is the "third most holy site for Muslims" is based on reports by Mohammed's friends who said that after he died, Mohammed went on horseback to "the farthest place" and there, he rode his horse up into heaven." They did not say it was Jerusalem.

About 12 years after Mohammed's death, some guy actually built a mosque ON TOP OF the Christian church left on top of the mound by the Crusaders. He then renamed the Jewish Temple Mount "Al Aqsa" which in Arabic means "the furthest place". His motivation was probably to increase tourist traffic to his mosque by saying it was the actual place where Mohammed ascended into heaven.

The Jews, by contrast, had two huge temples built on the site beginning about 3,100 BC. and lasting hundreds of years each. The Jews only left Israel in 135AD when the Romans had destroyed their temple and started to kill anyone who stayed in the area. But the Jews have never forgotten their holy temple and longed to rebuild it. As part of the annual Passover holiday, Jews lift their glasses and say this toast "Next year in Jerusalem!" They have been doing this since 135AD.

The Christians took the life of one Jew, declared him the Jewish "Messiah" even though most of the Jews and more importantly, the Sanhedrin, the Jewish Court, rejected him as a charlatan.

And because their "Messiah" got murdered by the Romans in Jerusalem, suddenly the city "belongs" to the Christians?

The Jewish people have had the longest association with the lands of Israel. Their religious claims are far more substantial and documented than any Christian or Muslim claim.

Thank-you for the websites on Sudan. The situation there is very critical and people need to know about it.

Re: How the barrier really threatens Arabs

From the World Bank report:

Nigel Roberts (World Bank representative in the West Bank and Gaza Strip) attributed most of the Palestinian economic decline to Israel's policy of maintaining roadblocks and closures in the Palestinian territories. "The security measures that Israel has implemented over the past four years have essentially shredded the web of transactions that the Palestinian economy depends on," he said.
Roberts said the key to reviving the Palestinian economy was for Israel to allow more Palestinian goods and services to reach foreign markets. "The most binding constraint to Palestinian economic improvement is closed borders to trade," he said.

On who Jerusalem is more important to:

To Christians it is where the young Jesus impressed the sages at the Jewish Temple, where he spent the last days of his ministry, and where the Last Supper, the Crucifixion and the Resurrection took place.

Gabriel escorted Muhammad to the pinnacle of the rock, which the Arabs call as-Sakhra, where a ladder of golden light materialized. On this glittering shaft, Muhammad ascended through the seven heavens into the presence of Allah, from whom he received instructions for himself and his followers. Following his divine meeting, Muhammad was flown back to Mecca by Gabriel and the winged horse, arriving there before dawn. The Dome of the Rock is a mashhad, a shrine for pilgrims. Adjacent to the Dome is the Al-Aqsa Mosque wherein Muslims make their prayers.

I post this information even though I don't see the value of debating it (you cite your sources I site mine ...). If you've never been in Jerusalem you should go. It would take more than a few paragraphs to describe the labyrinths, the people, the *feeling* there.

BTW many of Israel's Jews are closer to a secular society than a biblical society.

The situation in Sudan and Chad is worsening with the seasonal rains. Food and supples are not coming from N'Djamena fast enough to sustain the overwhelming number of refugees in inadequate camps.

Who respects other religions? Not the Muslims!

Reply to noname: That is not what I have heard. What I have heard is that tourism dropped to almost nothing as people were too afraid to come to a violence-ridden area. And since the Palestinians launched the intifada which triggered the checkpoints, the Palestinians are the ones responsible for their own economic peril.
Israel will gladly dismantle the checkpoint when the Palestinians reign in their terror groups. Right now, every opinion poll shows they are urging them on to kill more Jews.

Your World Bank "expert" has found a scenario that completely ignores Palestinian violence and finds Israel entirely culpable. Not much of an expert in my opinion.

About Christianity's claims on Jerusalem: You wrote: "To Christians it is where the young Jesus impressed the sages at the Jewish Temple, where he spent the last days of his ministry, and where the Last Supper, the Crucifixion and the Resurrection took place."

Jesus was Jewish. He studied the Torah. He impressed the sages with his knowledge of Judaism. I can understand Christians wanting to visit the places where Jesus lived and walked. But how does Jerusalem "belong" to the Christians from this? I do note that the Israelis have protected all religious sites in Israel for all religions, not just their own.
Not like the Palestinians who in recent history sacked Rachel's tomb.

Thanks for your longer version of the Death of Mohammed and his ascencion into heaven. I note that in your description of "the pinnacle of the rock" no mention specifically to Jerusalem was made at the time. That came later.

I have a question for you. What kind of people come in and put up their church/mosque/temple on top of the most holy site for another religion?

Only religions which have absolutely no respect for other religions.

The Islamic claims to the temple mount in Jerusalem are a hokey as a three-dollar bill.
And yes, I know that the Jews in Israel include a large swath who are secular Jews. Religion is not obligatory in Israel like it is in a lot of Arabic countries.

Re: How the barrier really threatens Arabs

To Becky: to ask someone to source a statement and then to counter with "That is not what I have heard." does you no credit.

I am not interested in tit for tat.

War is a horrifying. Evil. It is the real hell.

To villify an entire people whose eyes you've never looked into is irresponsible.

Go to Jerusalem and see what it is you are talking about.

Miserable Ones

You all have a right to work on suffering. You are doing a good job on yourselves. Keep up the good work. Stay with your day job and forget trying to write. Pathetic. Spend more time reading Noam Chomsky; if you are able to read Chomsky, that is.

Noam Chomsky is no "ultimate source" of truth

Noam Chomsky is a brilliant man. But on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he is very one-sided. While reading his works is educational on many levels, he is not the ultimate source of truth.

If "war is horrifying" (which I agree it is) then why are you supporting the Arabs who continue to wage wars on innocent civilian populations in the name of Jihad?

1948---the Arabs offensively attacked Israel--right after a UN vote declaring their legitimacy!
1956--Arabs attacked Israel
1967 -- Egypt massed 100,000 troops on Israel's border and shut down their access to the sea. Israel in 6 days drove Arab forces back well beyond "the green line".
1973--- the Arabs attacked Israel during Yom Kippur when religious Jews fast and pray all day.
The Israelis barely won.

This is history folks. The Arabs have been out to genocide the Jews from BEFORE 1948. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler and gave him the idea of making Jews wear gold stars.

I would like to think these genocidal rivalries are a thing of the past, but I am afraid that is just wishful thinking.

Am I condemning a whole people? I have read the opinion polls in the West Bank and Gaza and the majority of Palestinians favor the suicide bombers. I am sure that if I went to Israel and met people on all sides I would find good and bad people everywhere. But at some point, a people either back their corrupt leaders or they throw them out of office. The Palestinians elected Arafat 8 years ago to a 5 year post. What does that tell you?

I am not so much anti-Palestinian as I am defending Israel from the constant unwarranted attacks made here, at the RCNV, by WILPF, the Committee for Justice in Palestine, Free Radio and the Muslim Student Alliance (just to name a few of the most outrageous local Jew-bashers).

I have not had good personal experiences with Palestinians. One woman, who spoke at the RCNV, staged an anti-Israeli "incident" which I have on videotape if anyone is interested. Now I know its wrong to blame an entire people for the actions of one of their people, but this woman was appointed a spokesperson for her cause and should have been one of the best and brightest her people could offer.

And to noname: I'll try to find some sources for the economic info. Basically, the Palestinian don't have much of anything--industry or agriculture and largely live on handouts. Their only income (when they had it) was from the well-paying jobs they had inside of Israel before their intifada pretty much eliminated them.

Ask yourself, Becky

Becky wants to know.... "Has Vinny EVER interviewed a family member of an Israeli who was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber?"

You're a journalist, Becky. Have YOU ever interviewed *ANY* Palestinian? How about a Palestinian victims grieving family member? I concur. I have never interviewed a family member of an Israeli who was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber. But, in the same breath, I'll also mention I've never interviewed a family member of a Palestinian who was killed by an IDF terrorist ether. I HAVE interviewed the parents of Rachel Corrie, an American peace activist who was murdered by a bulldozer driver. I've also interviewed numerous grieving family members of 9-11 victims... Ask yourself. I stand by my record of VOLUNTEER reporting.....

When you throw around the term Jew-bashing about me and about FRSC, it does a disservice to ACTUAL hate. Like this example from today's NY Times...

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) -- Vandals smashed historic headstones and cut a swastika into a lawn at a Jewish cemetery overnight, authorities said Friday. The attack came just hours after two Israeli men were imprisoned for passport fraud and labelled spies by the New Zealand government.

Acts like that I deplore. Resasonable people who read this string and know of my work are laughing at your silly accusations, Becky. One of my good friends is Jewish. Disagree with me, fine. Just drop the Jew-bashing accuasations...

Re: How the barrier really threatens Arabs

"Becky. One of my good friends is Jewish" is probably not the best way to make the point. I don't think you're antisemitic but this is too much like "some of my best friends are....".

Rachel Corrie was not "murdered"

Reply to Vinny: Your shows feature one Israel-basher after another. Since Israel is the only Jewish country in the world, I will let readers here draw their own conclusions. I don't have a clue why you've jumped on the Israel-bashing bandwagon --- but your shows reflect bias and misinformation in a constant stream if they are critical of Israel. You do not have opposing viewpoints on and even used an emergency operator interrupt me so I couldn't finish my point when I called FRSC to comment on another show on this topic.

BTW, Rachel Corrie was accidently killed when she engaged in a deadly game of "chicken" with an Israeli bulldozer. See the articles below which show how ISM photos were doctored.


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