Santa Cruz Indymedia : http://santacruz.indymedia.org
Home
Santa Cruz Indymedia

News :: Alternative Media : Civil & Human Rights : Media Criticism : Peace & War : Resistance & Tactics

Iman al-Hams route "to school" last Oct. 5th

For the rabid anti-Israel mob, the death of a 13 year-old schoolgirl, shot while walking to school, is only more evidence of the intentional and willful violence committed by the IDF against Palestinian children. But is it? What are the facts? What do the various witnesses say? Was Iman al-Hams en route to school or was she engaged in a very different and deadly mission?
photo Iman al-Hams trip to school.JPG
Iman Al-Hams, according to her parents, left for school one day but while walking to school was shot mulitple times by the IDF and killed.

According, the Israeli soldiers who admit shooting and killing her, although an IDF investigation was unable to determine which bullet proved to be the fatal one, the little girl, who looked even younger than 13, walked directly into the forbidden zone around their outpost. She ignored warning shots, threw her backpack on the ground, at which time the IDF opened fire on her killing her.

The commander of the Girit outpost was exonerated following the IDF investigation. The rabidly anti-Israel crowd found this to be evidence of a cover-up for a defacto policy to shoot and kill Palestinian children.

But look at the aerial photo of the scene which shows the location of Iman al-Hams home, her school, and the Girit outpost where the IDF soldiers were. It's obvious from looking at that photo, that Iman was not "taking a shortcut to school because she was late" as one "eyewitness" account said.

In addition, the IDF soldiers testified at the hearing that they were coming under direct fire right around the time of Iman al-Hams entry onto the property about 300 yards from their outpost.

They also testifed that their outpost comes under "daily" fire, so they had plenty of reason to expect an attack.

To me, this is the slam-dunk smoking gun which proves that Iman al-Hams was put up to doing what she did for the express purpose of turning her into a martyr and blaming the IDF for killing a little girl.

She was murdered all right. She was murdered by the cynical, manipulative Palestinian adults who talked her into becoming a shehada in the first place.
 
 


New Comments are disabled, please visit Indybay.org/SantaCruz

Comments

How About A Map To Showing Johnson's Route To Insanity

The Israeli government pumps multiple bullets into a completely unarmed 13 year-old girl, and this is evidence of how bloodthirsty the Palestinian adults are? Becky Johnson has lost her mind.

As for her maps and other false, and in this case irrelevant, information: once again she provides no sources.
 

Becky you're brainwashed!

No parent would *ever* put their little innocent daughter "up to" becoming a martyr.... for no damn reason!! This makes absolutely no sense!

Please read what you've written and think about it. It simply makes no sense. This is the worst example of blaming the victim that I can think of!
 

"No parent would *ever* put their little innocent daughter "up to" becoming a martyr.... "

Makes no sense to YOU as you're no jingoistic Palestinian, let alone an Islamic sympathizing one at that. You're judging all Palestinian parents from a distinct Western, life affirming persperstive that not all of them share. Some of them prefer to sacrifice their offspring on the alter of the terroristic struggle against Israelis or Islamism in return for nationalistic pride and prestige in their community.

Here's one example of a Palestinian mother who has encouraged her children to become suicide bombers:

"Um Nidal Farahat, a Gazan mother of four, has a very different attitude. She says she encouraged her sons, from a young age, to
attack Israeli targets and become martyrs. One son, Mohammed, 17, was killed in March when he attacked Atzmona, a Jewish settlement in the southern Gaza Strip, and killed five youths there. Mohammed had been active with Hamas' military wing since he was 7, Um Nidal told the Saudi newspaper Asharq al Awsat last month.
"In this atmosphere, Mohammed came to love martyrdom," she said. "As a mother, I re-enforced this love for martyrdom in the mind of Mohammed and of all my sons."
She said she discussed the Atzmona operation with Mohammed before he embarked on it and posed with him for keepsake photos.

www.middleeastfacts.com/Articles/teenage_suiciders_bombers.htm


The source for the above map is IDF spokesman as noted in Hebrew below the photo. Beats any communist or Palestinian-terrorist source for all I'm concerned.
 

So Becky, do you ENJOY abuse?

A hate-crazed Israeli soldier empties his M-16, point blank, into an unarmed totally incapacitated 13-year-old girl, and your only emotional reaction is to spin more apologies for Israel. It's just absolutely disgusting, especially for someone who boasts about being a mother of three. CT's a moral corpse, too, but he at least has the sense to avoid proving it to everyone this decisively. What makes your position even uglier is that it's not just you; clearly, there's a BIG community out there whose viciousness inspires your own, your graphic proves it.

To Steven Argue and all the other great people of this IMC: thank you, thank you, thank you for standing up to these zionist degenerates. This sad world needs more heroes like you.
 

Re: Iman al-Hams route "to school" last Oct. 5th

Replacing Palestinian for Jew we get:

Makes no sense to YOU as you're no jingoistic Jew, let alone a Jewish sympathizing one at that. You're judging all Jewish parents from a distinct Arab, life affirming persperstive that not all of the Jews share. Some of them prefer to sacrifice their offspring on the alter of the IDF terroristic struggle against Palestinians or for Judaism in return for nationalistic pride and prestige in their community.

Here's one example of a Jewish mother who has encouraged her children to become an IDF sniper:

"Aliyah Rosenburg, a Tel Aviv mother of four, has a very different attitude. She says she encouraged her sons, from a young age, to
attack Palestian targets. One son, Ariel, 18, was killed in March when he attacked Jenin, a Palestian town in the West Bank, and killed five youths there."

She said she discussed the Jenin operation with Ariel before he embarked on it and posed with him for keepsake photos.
 

Whoops

CT posted at the same time, and in doing so placed himself overtly among the brain-sucking moral undead. I stand corrected.

By the way, this line he's spewing -- i.e. "you're judging them by your own standard, and you're wrong. They're just fundamentally icky nasty evil in ways you don't even comprehend" -- this is THE quintessential bigot line of bullshit. Every bigot in history has believed this.
 

Welcome to the anti-Zionist buffoon gallery

That gallery's ranks are really starting to swell as of late -- Ron from the other thread just entered a day ago.

Word games in themselves never replace evidence and substance. At best, such bare-bone rhetorical tools provide a humoristic twist, even if somewhat sick. Other than that, they attest to the lack of real ammunition by the person who resorts to them in lieu of meaningful input.

The comment slagging me as a moral corpse is actually denigrating me for having dared to stand up to certain commonplace anti-Zionist lies.
 

More about the Israel basher's lame word game

The new buffoon's stupid aforementioned word game is extremely lame as he doesn't understand the reason for the employment of certain replacements of names, e.g. "Jewish" vs. "Arab" (not "Palestinian") and "Western" vs. "Arab".

Here's what the new buffoon's paraphrased passage should have looked like:

"Makes no sense to YOU as you're no jingoistic Israeli , let alone a religious-Jewish sympathizing one at that. You're judging all Israeli parents from a distinctly Western, life affirming perspecstive that not all of them share. Some of them prefer to sacrifice their offspring on the altar of the terroristic struggle against Palestinians or militaristic Judaism in return for nationalistic pride and prestige in their community.

Here's one example of an Israeli mother who has encouraged her children to become suicide bombers:

"Aliyah Rosenberg, a Tel-Aviv mother of four, has a very different attitude. She says she encouraged her sons, from a young age, to
attack Palestinian targets and become martyrs. One son, Ariel, 17, was killed in March when he attacked Jenin, an Arab settlement in the West Bank, and killed five youths there.

She said she discussed the Jenin operation with Ariel before he embarked on it and posed with him for keepsake photos."

(Note that the rabid anti-Zionist couldn't find appropriate replacements for the text he omitted. Quite telling, eh?)

I expected the new buffoon to distort my words beyond recognition and he sure has. The basis for my observation wasn't racist but rather a culturally based one. The concept of shuhada or Islamist martyrdom is anathema to liberal Western culture. It could be understood by all Westerners who are sufficiently open minded and willing to learn, but the anti-Zionist buffoon and his ilk will never accept the logic inherent in my explanation and will always try to depict me instead as an anti-Arab racist.
 

Look at the aerial photo again

Here is one of many news accounts of the death of Iman al-Hams last October 5th.

"few deaths have stirred such a sense of disbelief or disdain as that of Iman al-Hams.

She was killed on Oct.5, as she made her way to school. Her friends say that, because they were running late, they took a shortcut -- a route that ventured dangerously close to an area deemed off-limits by the Israeli army.

From all accounts, when Iman wandered too close, the soldiers fired warning shots from their guard tower. Jolted and frightened, she dropped her school bag and tried to run. She did not get far."

Read the full article at:

www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/scfcn/CTVNews/20041013/palestiniangirl_inquiry_20041013/World/

Look at the aerial photo again. Is it reasonable that she was 'taking a shortcut'??? Is it even possible?

Why did she drop her backpack? Wouldn't that have caused IDF soldiers to fear that there was a bomb in her backpack? Her arrival in the off-limits area occurred at a time in which the IDF outpost was under fire by snipers.

THAT is why the IDF exonerated the officers. It was entirely reasonable for them to shoot her under the circumstances. She was way way way far away from her school.

Perhaps those who still believe the fiction that she was an innocent schoolgirl walking to school when she was shot, can provide their own aerial photo of the site and prove a different result.

My guess is they can't even provide a map which disputes the photo above.

Please read the article at:www.dafka.org/NewsGen.asp about Palestinian use of childen in their terror operations.

Here are a few excerpts:

"At least 40 children from the city of Raphah have lost their arms as a result of the explosions of pipe bombs. They received five Israeli shekels (about one U.S. dollar) for throwing them." (see original article at
honestreporting.com/graphics/abumazen.gif)

"The Palestinian Authority has provided children with military training. The New York Times reports that 25,000 children were trained in the summer 2000 in PA camps in the use of firearms, the making of Molotov cocktails, the methods of kidnapping Israeli leaders, and conducting ambushes." (New York Times - Aug. 3, 2000)

"The use of children reflects a long-time Palestinian strategy in the fight against Israel. In June 1982, the PLO issued a military call-up order for all boys aged 12 and older whose fathers served in Fatah units. The children were promised $80 a month and were attached to regular PLO battalions, each serving in his father's company."

DOES THE PA ENCOURAGE CHILDREN TO COMMIT ACTS OF VIOLENCE AGAINST JEW?

"Religious leaders also encourage the martyrdom of children. Sheik 'Ikrimi Sabri, the Palestinian Authority-appointed mufti of Jerusalem, declared: "I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven... The younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him." ("Al-Ahram Al-Arabi" - Oct. 28, 2000)

And finally,:

"Another Palestinian mother was quoted in the London Times: "I am happy that [my 13-year-old son] has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my [12] sons and daughters to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem."

So much for the guy who chastised me by insisting the Palestinians never use 13 year-olds for suicide bombers or to become martyrs for Holy Jihad.

As for the commander shooting Iman al-Hams after she was dead--I too find this repulsive. But you can imagine, in a situation where suicide bombers come regularly to attack IDF soldiers, that they would want to make sure some injured bomber didnt have just enough strength left to pull a trigger.

War is hell. But it's the Arabs who have continually waged war against Israel and the Arabs who won't recognize the right of a tiny, Jewish country to exist anywhere in the mideast. Their hatred is so deep, and so cultivated by their schools, mosques, and civil leaders, that they will sacrafise their own children just to kill Jews.

As for Israeli mothers sending their sons and daughters into the IDF, I don't see a moral equivalence. Is it immoral to join a police force even if you end up shooting a bad guy now and then?
 

Re: Iman al-Hams route "to school" last Oct. 5th

What's really offensive, is that on January 20 at the Inaugurate the People rally in Santa Cruz, the very same Becky Johnson who justifies the murder of unarmed children, had the gaul to dance around waving her hands high in the air making 'peace' symbols. Reprehensible.
 

Re: witness

Actually, someone like Becky making herself conspicuous in leftist circles is easily explained: The zionists are keenly aware that their strongest opposition in U.S. society -- i.e. their most damaging opposition -- is concentrated on the political left. Their extremely active U.S. organizations therefore seek to infiltrate those camps and gather as much intelligence and as many names as possible, to what end remains to be seen. I've seen this myself at a "communist" bookstore (a logical place for CoIntelPro intelligence gathering) where nearly all the volunteers were A) remarkably disinterested in leftist theory, B) had no visible source of income, and C) harbored sneaky non-leftist sympathies for Israel. The same people constantly pushed patrons to fill out "customer registration" sheets.

Becky is probably a spy. If I were a leftist in Santa Cruz, I'd avoid her like the plague.
 

Don't you justify the murder of Israeli children?

Who ever said I wasn't for peace? I have marched against the war in Iraq on several occasions and hosted a peace vigil downtown just before Shock and Awe.

When I was 14 years old, I dedicated my life to world peace. You may not believe me, but I feel I am working just as hard for a just and peaceful world as I hoped I would when I was fourteen. I had a right to dance at the inaugeral demo just like anyone else.

You said I "justifies the murder of unarmed children."

I do not justify the murder of any children. The IDF did not murder Iman al-Hams. The Palestinian terror group who recruited her for this sick, perverse, and violent mission were her murderers. I condemn them. Don't you?

Consider this. Whenever you say "suicide bombings are terrible BUT you have to realize how desparate these people are..." YOU are justifying the murder of Israeli children.

I abhor the deaths of any children. It is mean-spirited and false to characterize me as not caring about children or, God forbid, as supporting their murder.

I assume your strident accusation that I "danced and gave a peace sign" was made in lieu of your having a coherent argument against the map I provided above.
 

Where is YOUR map"Truth" Warrior?

Okay. So you think the aerial map provided by the IDF is a forgery? Surely you can find a map of Rafah which shows where the Girit outpost is, Iman's school and home? Why don't you post a simple city map and then tell us all again what a lie the IDF's photo is. If you have a map, you can bring it over to my house and I will scan it for you and upload it to the internet free of charge!

Of course you would have to reveal your identity you coward!! Its easier to lie with a pseudonym, isn't it "truth" warrior???

So, what if my IDF aerial photograph is not a lie? What does that say to you about the little girl's death.
 

"Becky is probably a spy. If I were a leftist in Santa Cruz, I'd avoid her like the plague."

BECKY PROBABLY REPORTS TO THE ADL, THE *JDL*, AIPAC, AND THE JCRC EVERY DAY.

`
 

Character assassination? How Progressive!!

So you are wrong and yet you continue to condemn the messenger?

So far you have called me "insane," said I "have lost my mind." You've accused me of posting a false aerial photo (with no refutation other than a paranoid denial),said my input is "irrelevant" and "unsourced." (the source is on the photo: in Hebrew),you've said I "make no sense", I'm really offensive, I'm reprehensible and I was caught dancing. My ideas are "stupid" and I am an "insane cunt" (kind of sexist, don't you think?)I hold "visciously insane positions" and that I think a 13 yr-old girl "deserved to die" and that I am a spy.(I've lived in Santa Cruz for 25 years!!).

You guys are so busy practising your character assasination of me (and in a cowardly fashion--calling me names from behind your pseudonyms) that you forgot to actually refute any of my points.

Oh, Truth(?) Warrior--I never said she had a bomb. I said she probably was told that there was a bomb in her backpack--which would explain why she threw it at the IDF soldiers.

You really should read more carefully, and, wash your mouth out with soap. It needs it.

BTW: the Next showing of Club Cruz with Lee Kaplan will be February 8th and 10th at 7PM on channel 27. Set your VCR's!!
 

Note how JA let his guard down and

showed his unmistakable antisemitic colors.
 

JA let his guard down?

So now it's anti-Semitic to mention these organizations, or that they represent institutional zionist power in the U.S.? Oh of course, silly me, it's "anti-Semitic" to say anything critical about the power Jews wield in this country, isn't it?
 

As I said in another post to this thread...

...in which I got a bit too colorful for the mod's taste, you pretend this stupid map represents an atrocity equivalent to a hate-crazed soldier ripping an unarmed completely helpless little girl in half with a machine gun. All you're really proving with this, Becky, is how twisted by hatred your own mind is. Likewise with your conjecture that Iman was a "suicide bomber." You started off stating this in a hypothetical way, but now it's carved in stone for you:

"The IDF did not murder Iman al-Hams. The Palestinian terror group who recruited her for this sick, perverse, and violent mission were her murderers. I condemn them. Don't you?"

I suppose you imagine your systematic morphing of this message has tricked everyone else into swallowing this crap whole, and now you're gloating to yourself over how clever you think you are, but all you've really done is prove for the fiftieth time that you're an extremely vicious ideologue, and that you harbor the zionist's symptomatic contempt for other people's intelligence. You still have absolutely no basis for claiming she was on any kind of political suicide mission; this map you're waving around doesn't even begin to prove this, especially since it's misleading: the articles clearly state that Iman was 70 meters from the tower, while this graphic lie you're so proud of shows her approaching to within 30 meters or so. She may have come closer than 70, but there's just no way she got this close. Then there's that clever little arrowhead at the end of her route, with which this bullshit artist implies she went even closer, and on a TRAJECTORY, no less.

So now that I've noticed how creative this piece of shit is, I'm supposed to blindly accept the word of the propagandist who produced it, that this was her exact route? Bullshit. All this scumbag did was get his hands on a satellite photograph and then assign to it his most incriminating guess as to how she might have approached the outpost.

Also, this is virtually her back yard. Maybe she lost something the previous day while playing closer to her house, and was wandering around trying to find it. there are all sorts of possibilities. Kids do flakey things. But in your sick apologist mind, she has to be evil, she has to deserve what happened to her, because after all she's Palestinian. And her killers are Israelis, so they can do no wrong.

You wanted me to be your monkey and wave maps around, so here are maps showing the history of zionist land theft since WWII:

map1.bmp

map2.bmp

map3.bmp

map4.bmp

map5.bmp


No, these are not "beside the point" they're the ENTIRE point. They represent a crime of incredible magnitude that you in your impenetrable disease will never acknowledge.
 

The war in Palestine is caused by the extreme injustices

Becky Johnson hates Palestinians and thinks that some non-existent all-knowing "God" in the sky gave Palestine to the Zionists. With this she denies that the Palestinians were the original inhabitants that had a vibrant culture, agriculture, and civilization before the Zionists began murdering, terrorizing, and evicting them from their land.

She says this is not true, that there is archeological evidence from 3,000 years ago… blah, blah, blah. Archeological evidence? So what? There is also evidence of Homo erectus inhabiting the land about 700,000 years ago. This is just as relevant to the debate on whether or not Palestinians should have equal rights to Jews.

The nonsense "logic? of Becky Johnson generally refutes itself.

Then Becky Johnson had to come up with this one: "More Nazis died in World War II than Americans. Did that mean the Germans were the victims and the Americans the perpetrators?"

The difference you lunatic Zionist is that the Nazis had power and the Palestinians do not.

Yet the Zionists will claim that the little PA Bantustans with no base for an economy and their hand picked Uncle Tom PA capitalist leaders constitute Palestinian power.

The war in Palestine is caused by the extreme injustices of the Zionist government. It is not a result of something inherently evil in the character of the Palestinian people, as these raving Zionists would have us think.

As for Becky Johnson's support for the murder of a 13 year-old Palestinian child, people who think that her arguments may be persuasive would do well to ask Becky Johnson for sources on her endless stream of made-up facts.
 

Re: Iman al-Hams route "to school" last Oct. 5th

Critical Thinker and Becky Johnson sound the same person. Becky Johnson is a foreign agent that has limitless time to spew her hatred and lies. "Critical Thinker" is obviously is writing under a false alias and is Becky Johnson's ideological identical twin.

Hate speech should be silenced.
 

This clinches it

"Of course you would have to reveal your identity you coward!! Its easier to lie with a pseudonym, isn't it "truth" warrior???"

This is Becky "Bullshit" Johnson trying to manipulate me into using my real name. I will never do this because A) for U.S. zionist extremists, the deepest desire of their shriveled black hearts is to hunt down and kill/maim/imprison people like me, and B) this country could quite soon be insane enough for them to actually do this. It's the only way they'll ever shut me up, and I'll be damned if I'll make it easy for them. I intend to keep doing this for a very long time. Steven Argue, you should think about this, too.

This is THE definitive sign that Becky is an intelligence gatherer. I've sparred with some really scary creeps this way, e.g. offspring of card-carrying neocons, and ALL OF THEM have tried to get me to reveal my identity in exactly this manner.
 

Anti-democratic and small-minded "Observation"

He has posted a copy of his post here on another thread but that doesn't make his claims linking me to Becky Johnson any truer.

He seems not overly intelligent anyway, so maybe he can be forgiven for asserting that I sound the same as Becky Johnson and that I'm her "ideological identical twin". But that's not true, as the diligent reader can tell from all of our posts over eve the last week.

I can only hope no editor will heed this anti-democratic "Observation" deadbrain's sinister attempt to have me or anybody else here standing up to the lies being spewed by anti-Zionists gagged. That would be this site's loss.
 

Re: Hate speech should be silenced

Hey, guy, I like it that you're on the right side, but this sentiment is straight out of the zionist mind-control handbook. They're the main advocates pushing to do this, because this way they can silence their critics.
 

Your description is a product of the paranoid anti-Zionist mindset

I'm not even a member in any Zionist organization you can think of. You don't know s**t but you're compelled to sound off anyway.
 

About the question by '???'

No, mentioning the ADL isn't antisemitic per se, nor is it necessarily antisemitic to say anything critical about the power Jews wield in this country, isn't it. However, when you mention a person's or a group's religious belonging when you discuss how wealthy or powerful they are, the context tends to be racist. Try to imagine you're talking about Muslims rather than Jews. Are you willing to apply the same strict PC standards to Jews you apply to virtually any other religious affiliation?

All that notwithstanding, it's a whole different ball game when a proven antisemite like JA does it in a certain context, then it is antisemitic.

You should do some rudimentary homework before you make such sweeping statements. The JDL does NOT represent "institutional zionist power in the U.S." as it's not a mainstream Jewish organization.
 

How about that little guy in the picture?

Was he a lying asshole too?
 

Re: Your description is a product of the paranoid anti-Zionist mindset

http://www.adl.org/combating_hate/

An excerpt from one document of ADL's massive oeuvre on this subject:

"ADL has long been in the forefront of national and state efforts to deter and counteract hate-motivated criminal activity. Hate crime statutes are necessary because the failure to recognize and effectively address this unique type of crime could cause an isolated incident to explode into widespread community tension.

"In June 1993, the United States Supreme Court upheld a Wisconsin hate crime statute that was based on model legislation originally drafted by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) in 1981.

"The following year, ADL published a detailed report on hate crimes laws, Hate Crimes Laws: A Comprehensive Guide, which functions as a reference on hate crimes legislation nationwide. This update is meant to complement the 1994 report and encompasses changes that have occurred since that time, including the League's recent addition of gender to its model hate crimes legislation, and the passage of additional Federal legislation, as well as a description of a number of Federal training and education initiatives to confront hate violence.
 

RE: "Gee, back to the moon"

Aha. I've got no recourse but to conclude you have a big problem with the ADL's self-proclaimed "efforts to deter and counteract hate-motivated criminal activity" and the fact that Wisconsin and the US Supreme Court in effect concurred with one of those efforts.

So you are greatly troubled by the struggle undertaken by the ADL and other Jewish organizations against antisemitism and you consider their efforts "zionist mind-control" that is attempting to "silence their critics". See, that's a classic antisemitic line which the notorious neo-Nazi sympathizing Wendy KKKlanbell and the NOI sympathizing Juif Antagoniste would always be more than happy to spout. Proud of the company you keep? You don't happen to be "Truth Warrior", do you?

Racists like you and your ilk are an albatross on the far Left's neck.
 

Maps leave out vital information

Reply to Truth Warrior: Your maps are very interesting and very telling. While they delineate where the Jewish kibbutzm movement had bought land prior to 1948, the inference is that all the remaining land belonged to the Arabs.

It didn't.

While some Arabs did own plots of land, much of the land belonged to the absentee landlords of the Turkish Crown. So anyone viewing your maps might mistakenly presume that the remaining land belonged to the Arabs.

Your maps don't show the previous partition of Palestine done to create the Arab/Palestinian state of Jordan--a country where no Jew is allowed to own land. So Palestine had already been divided into an Arab and Jewish state before your first map--with 75% of the land going to form an Arab/Palestinian state.

I also note you have no maps of 1993 and the Oslo accords that set up an agreement that would phase in an independent state of Palestine alongside Israel in five years. Of course the first requirement was that the Palestinians stop the terror attacks. They didn't. The plan got stuck at phase 1 and guess who got the blame?

Oh Truth(what a laugh!) Warrior-- I asked you to post a map of Iman al-Hams neighborhood--showing where her house is, her school, and the relative position of the Girit outpost where she died. You haven't.

So you think she was wandering a distance of 2 and 1/2 times the distance from her home and school IN THE WRONG DIRECTION from her school and despite warning shots fired from the IDF still entered the forbidden zone? And that the IDF is at fault for shooting her AFTER she took her backpack off and threw it at them during a gunbattle with Palestinians?

Your graphic description of the horror of the soldier shooting her body after she was probably dead is a separate issue. It does not prove she was murdered by the IDF. Its even possible she was killed by a Palestinian bullet as there was a gunbattle going on at the time of her arrival on the Girit outpost property and the IDF investigation said it was impossible to tell which bullet from where killed her.

So Truth Warrior-- the aerial map I posted shows she didnt accidently cut across the forbidden zone on the way to school as the vast majority of outraged press reports relate. She very deliberately took a bizarre and dangerous trek that day. Since the Palestinians do recruit children to become shehadas, that is the most likely reason she did what she did.
 

IOF "soldier" shoots dead another Palestinian school girl

Israeli occupation forces shot dead a 10-year-old Palestinian girl while she was entering a United Nations school in Rafah refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip....

www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp
 

Hey, anonymouse

You're yet another propaganda hack who's not here in the interests of truth, but to defame Israel, therefore you're intentionally using older news. It has been found that no IDF soldiers fired any shots in the area at the time that girl was standing where she did. One of the Palestinian idiots who were firing their guns in jubilation at their successful pilgrimage to Mecca actually caused that girl's death.

See www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite
 

Okay, I'll connect the itsy-twitsy little dots for you...

First of all, you shifted the debate with your trademark deceitfulness away from the point I initially made, which was that zionist organizations are the leading advocates of 'hate crimes' legislation in the United States. You said this perception was "a product of the paranoid anti-Zionist mindset." Then I backed my assertion up with one of the ADL's own documents. That is, I kicked yore asshole to the moon again.

But of course you avoided acknowledging this by shifting the subject. I don't think this sleazy maneuver was a conscious calculated act on your part. I think you're just deeply pathologically dishonest, on a level that precedes and dominates conscious thinking. Which pretty well summarizes my opinion of all religionists, including zionists, including Christian zionists.

Every position I have taken on this site has represented my opposition to Israel and to zionism. In response to this you have called me an anti-Semite repeatedly, especially now that lesser attacks have failed to silence me (this will also fail, since I regard your opinions of me, critical or otherwise, as less than meaningless). I've noticed that zionists always ALWAYS fall back on this 'anti-zionism = anti-Semitism' death-ray when facing determined opposition. The correlation is mendacious and manipulative of course, but zionists are insane ideologues whose paramount ideal is Israel's continued existence; every other value, including truthfulness, is martyred that this one might live...

It's not that you employ this 'anti-zionism = anti-Semitism' equation in a conscious calculated way; YOU REALLY BELIEVE IT. Zionism is an organic system of delusions, essentially a zealous fundamentalist religion, and you believe fervently in all of it. That's what makes you impossible to reach, as is typical of religionists in general. Your fervent (fervid, actually) belief in this particular fallacy is motivated by its convenience to the larger envelope of assumptions you accept without question, which by the way can be summed up as straightforward racism carried almost to the point of paranoid psychosis, complete with delusions of grandeur.

So. You believe absolutely in this 'anti-zionism = anti-Semitism' fallacy, as do zionists in general, as do the zionists of the ADL, and just admit it the ADL is filled to the rafters with zionists. Zionism has become the centerpiece of ethnic advocacy among Jews, which is what ADL has always represented.

Therefore, when you assert that the ADL "struggles to suppress antisemitism" and when I say the ADL (as a zionist organ) "struggles to suppress opposition to Israel," we're not really saying two different things. That's the effect of this equation you buy into so fervidly -- the two things become one and the same, and that's your mentality, not mine. By screaming "anti-Semite!" at me just because I don't like Israel, you've made my point for me that suppressing anti-zionism is integral to and inseperable from the ADL's efforts to suppress anti-Semitism. You and they think just alike; you both believe in the same religion.

That's my position on this, and I really don't give a shit what your reactionary 'anti-Semite' fetish makes of it. I will concede one thing, though, and that's that I suspect you've taken my bitterness and hostility to mean that I hate Jews particularly, and that's not true. What I hate is weak-mindedness, dishonesty, and stupidity, things which are wrecking the world and by doing so are extinguishing hope itself. I rip into these things in this same way wherever I see them, which is everywhere. In case you haven't noticed, I'm also intensely critical of the United States.

I tear into zionism and zionists because they embody an extreme of all three things.

So CT, about the Israel / 9-11 connection, what are your "thoughts" on this? I really want to know. Here's a website that might stimulate your "mind":

www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp
 

Re: "I'll connect the itsy-twitsy little dots for you..."

You originally said, "Hey,... this sentiment is straight out of the zionist mind-control handbook. They're the main advocates pushing to do this, because this way they can silence their critics."
You didn't even name the ADL (or other organizations for that matter) specifically, yet somehow expected me to infer you did. But never mind that, because when I retorted "your description is a product of the paranoid anti-Zionist mindset", I was referring to your unfounded certainty that "this way" "they" "can silence their critics", AND to how you were falsely branding their effort to promote anti-hate crimes legislation as "Zionist mind-control". I'm not into deceit here. Again, you've scored no victory other than within your hateful mind. And again, you're projecting your creepy subterfuge onto me. You've been cunningly conflating the ADL efforts at snuffing out antisemitic hate crimes with snuffing out the ADL critics' voices. This crap won't work on me and many others.

As far as I recall, the ADL consists of non-Zionist members too. So it's not really a Zionist organization -- at least not in its express purpose -- but rather a Jewish one.

I admit I hadn't read the ADL webpage you linked to. Now that I have, it's quite revealing! It only serves to reinforce the fact you're full of lying s**t as usual. The excerpts you gleaned above -- I don't know from which link therein -- don't even remotely prove your "case" that the ADL has been trying to gag its critics through the promotion of anti-hate crimes legislation. You're a lying sicko who knows he's lying, but you keep standing by your lies so you could say the last word. That's what your latest protestations are about. You're not only essentially pathologically mendacious, you're also pathologically racist. Like I said on another thread where you juxtaposed the Zionists against the goyim, you're an antisemite masquerading as a bona fide anti-Zionist. A non-antisemitic anti-Zionist critic of Israel would never make that juxtaposition. I've already reiterated on a few IMCs that not any and all opposition to Israel are antisemitic nor does anti-Zionism equal antisemitism. As I asserted on the other thread, I've debated and read posts by staunch anti-Zionist critics of Israel, the Israeli governments and Israel's might, and acknowledge that many of them aren't antisemitic, despite what you would have everybody believe here. I have labelled you an antisemite because of your racism, not due to your opposition to Zionism and Israel. Now really, I don't give a damn how you regard my opinion of you as a racist now that you've proven you'll stay that course come what may. Also, I'm not kidding myself you can be silenced nor would I deliberately try to strip you of your freedom of speech, though I would feel amply rewarded had I known any habitually lying anti-Zionist or antisemite decided to stop spouting at least one particular lie due to my rebuttals.

As Becky Johnson has repeatedly pointed out, your alias is a goddamn joke. Much of what you say couldn't be further from the truth, unless you mean your own ideological brand of Truth with a capital T. Here's a collection of your laughable statements:

~ "I've noticed that zionists always ALWAYS fall back on this 'anti-zionism = anti-Semitism' death-ray when facing determined opposition."
(Not even true in this IMC).

~ "zionists are insane ideologues whose paramount ideal is Israel's continued existence; every other value, including truthfulness, is martyred that this one might live..."
(Two hilarious statements in one.)

~ "Zionism is an organic system of delusions, essentially a zealous fundamentalist religion, and you believe fervently in all of it."
(Just too laughable to refute. And no, O psychic, your characterization of me doesn't do what I believe justice).

~ "It's not that you employ this 'anti-zionism = anti-Semitism' equation...; YOU REALLY BELIEVE IT."
(I've already demolished this crap.)

~ "Your fervent (fervid, actually) belief in this particular fallacy is motivated by its convenience to the larger envelope of assumptions you accept without question, which by the way can be summed up as straightforward racism carried almost to the point of paranoid psychosis, complete with delusions of grandeur."
(Nice prose and syntax but remarkably off the mark tripe.)

~ "So. You believe absolutely in this 'anti-zionism = anti-Semitism' fallacy, as do zionists in general"
(Wrong on both counts and ridiculous of course.)

~ "Zionism has become the centerpiece of ethnic advocacy among Jews, which is what ADL has always represented."
(No, the ADL has not always represented it.)


Let the reader make no mistake, YOU're the one repeatedly insisting that I posit and fervently believe the false equation anti-Zionism = antisemitism. Therefore, when I assert the ADL "struggles to suppress antisemitism", I'm maintaining something quite different than your stubborn claim that it "struggles to suppress opposition to Israel,".

Your contention that "By screaming "anti-Semite!" at me just because I don't like Israel [lie], you've made my point for me that suppressing anti-zionism is integral to and inseperable from the ADL's efforts to suppress anti-Semitism [you're confusing your personal opinion -- a factually wrong one at that -- for a fact]." is bunk logic since it's premised on a few logical fallacies as I've shown. You're truly an accomplished bullshit artist.

As far as religion goes, I'd say that fanatical anti-Zionism of the antisemitic stripe that you happen to subscribe to seems a lot more of a religion that Zionism.

Whether or not you hate Jews in particular doesn't detract from the reality you're antisemitic.

You represent virtually all that you loath: weak-mindedness, dishonesty, stupidity, bigotry, racism, paranoia, deceitfulness, violence on cyber, sleaziness, silencing ideological opponents by saying the last word at any cost, tendency toward insanity, lying, delusions, zealous fundamentalist-like ideological hostility, impossible to reach, typical of religionists, assumptions accepted without question, grandeur delusions, psychosis, reactionary. Hope I've missed nothing...
In effect, you're one hell of a projecting machine.

I don't have anything to add about 9-11 to what has already been said on this topic.


As long as the US Left tolerates racists like you, it'll remain in its current duldrums, and the American far Left for sure will never win the hearts of a substantial percentage of the population.
 

How to blame Israel for all the violence, all the suffering, and the Tsunami too

Hey Al Jazeera!!
I see you are right on the spot with your phoney stories about how the IDF shoots little girls.
Check out what really happened!!

This from: www.honestreporting.com


When a Palestinian civilian dies under disputed circumstances, the media (1) overwhelmingly blame Israel, and (2) ascribe a 'revenge motive' to any subsequent Palestinian terror.

"On Monday (1/31), 10-year-old Nuran Deab was struck by a bullet in southern Gaza and died shortly thereafter. The IDF immediately suggested the gunshots may have come from nearby Palestinians firing celebratory shots in the air. Further, Reuters stated that 'it did not appear that Israeli soldiers some 600 meters away could have seen into the [school] compound from their position behind high walls.'

"Despite this, many news agencies were quick to promote the Palestinian version of events, backed by the UN:

? Agence France-Presse, under the headline 'Palestinian schoolgirl shot dead by Israeli troops in Gaza,' prominently quoted the PA prime minister condemning it as 'a crime.' The Israeli denial of responsibility was buried at the very end of the AFP report.

? The Independent based its story on a UN official who directly accused the IDF of firing on Deab, then passed off IDF spokespersons who denied culpability as 'plainly embarrassed.'

? Knight Ridder-Tribune quoted both Ahmed Qurei decrying the shooting as an IDF 'war crime,' and a UN official condemning 'the Israeli military's indiscriminate firing into civilian areas.'

This lopsided version of events appears all the more ludicrous given the Jerusalem Post's report that PA police have now arrested a Palestinian man for the shooting."

Okay kiddies! Did you get taken in again by the PA media magicians? Did you jump in with your knee-jerk conclusion that this was more 'evidence' to justify the venom you already have in your hearts for Israel?


Oh, and how about this one? A Moslem cleric on PA TV has proclaimed from his pulpit that Israel and the USA were at fault for the Tsunami!

Yes, the largest loss of life from a natural disaster in the memory of anyone still living was CAUSED by the United States and Israel!!

You don't believe me?

Here are the words from a Jan 7th Sermon in the Palestinian Authority broadcast on State-TV.

Entire article posted at: www.dafka.org

Sheik Ibrahim Madiras Friday sermon, PA TV Jan. 7, 2005:

"The Muslim remembers, how the Jews corrupted the land...
Oh Muslims! The Jews are Jews. Their character and custom are the corruption and destruction of this land. We keep warning you: the Jews are a cancer that spreads inside the body of the Islamic and Arab nation.... They invest in the East Asian countries, which were destroyed [by the Tsunami] because of the Jewish and American corruption and destruction."
 

Gee Truth Warrior, you must really have hated Mother Theresa

"All religionists are deeply pathologically dishonest, on a level that precedes and dominates conscious thinking."
--Truth Warrior Feb 2, 2005

Wow!

Now that I know the "Truth" I will pass this on to 2 billion Christians, 1.3 billion Muslims, 900 million Hindus, 360 million Buddists, and those 14 million Jews you can't stand so much.
 

Itsy-Twitsy little dots, part deux

Well, congratulations, CT. Once again, you got caught being a sleazy liar, and once again you slithered around this by shifting the debate. You know, you keep doing that and people might catch on that you're a sleazy liar...

"I've already demolished this crap."

You've "demolished" jack shit. I tried to jolt your mind out of this toxic set of assumptions it's locked into, but clearly this is wholly beyond you.

As I've tried to point out to Bonehead Becky, zionism is an insane fanaticism that is not only victimizing Palestinians horribly and keeping the entire Islamic world extremely angry, but is now also sucking all of U.S. society into its insane fascistic envelope, and by doing this is endangering everyone on the planet. The zionists through their elite agents, the neocons, are doing all of this quite consciously and deliberately. For them, Israel is God. It's the centerpiece of the world, the only part of it that really matters, and if all the rest of the world and the other 99.77% of humanity must be sacrificed to this God, well that makes sense doesn't it? It's very very clear, more clear all the time, that zionists think this way. If they were to become convinced that an unlimited nuclear war would somehow guarantee Israel's future, and could get one of their people within leaping range of the Red Button, they would trigger the apocalypse tomorrow. This has to place them among the most insane extreme bigots in history. In point of fact, thay already have people MANNING the Red Button; they must simply not be convinced of this. Yet.

For informed people outside the disinformation caldrons of the U.S. and Israel, all this is rapidly gelling into common knowledge. That's why they put Israel and the United States right at the top of their rankings of the gravest threats to the world, even above Islamic extremism (see www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp ). And they're right: al Qaeda doesn't have nukes. If they did, sure they'd be crazy enough to use them, but they don't. The zionists however DO, and are amassing more strategic power all the time, and they're every bit as crazy as al Qaeda. The apocalyptic Christian fanatics are a third uniquely American set of nihilist-lunatics, quite possibly the most dangerous of all...

For your own part, CT, there is simply no comprehending that zionism is this sinister and dangerous. You can see it clearly with Islamic exremism, maybe even with Christian extremism (though you'll never admit it), but Judaic extremism? You'll just never see it, and that's because you yourself are this type of extremist. Corrupt people do this, too. It's impossible to get them to fully understand and acknowledge how pervasive and destructive corruption is in the world, because if they did that then they'd have to comprehend what sinister selfish shits THEY are, and they just never will, period. You could hammer them with lucidly presented proof for weeks on end, and they'd just lie to you that they were convinced. Then as soon as they got away they'd go right back to thinking the way they did before, only more spitefully. You're just like that. It takes real sterling honesty, a quite rare thing, to overcome this, and that mental state is totally alien to you.

Therefore when you encounter people who DO see zionism as sinister and dangerous, your mind automatically shuts out any possibility that this view might be valid, i.e. that YOU are a villain, and so this viewpoint defaults to mere "Jew-hatred." That is, a thing that constitutes villainy and warrants hostility itself. It's really quite depressing how often human "morality" reduces to this gymnastics of delusion.

Sixty years ago, the Nazi regime was the world's 'Great Villain,' yes, but since then it is the United States and its imperial satellites that have claimed this title. Go ahead, challenge me on this -- I WILL BURY YOU. Over time, admittedly brilliant zionist "pragmatists" (like Leo Strauss and his disciples) have made themselves indispensable to this empire's villainous conquest of the entire planet, and by doing so have cultivated more and more power for themselves, so that now they enjoy a position of unchallenged power at the Empire's most extreme level of command. That's what the 'neocons' represent. And so it is YOU, the zionists, who by serving as Machiavellis to the 'Great Villain' in order to serve your own interests, have taken your place alongside him and made yourselves into a 'Great Villain' also. That's what megalomania gets you, and the neocons are textbook cases. Naturally, as you've done this it has become harder and harder for you to hide behind the 'anti-Semite' ploy you've gotten SO much mileage from over the past six decades. That shit's wearing out. It was incredibly potent 40 years ago, but now it's becoming a transparent gambit that has nothing to do with anything real. Get used to it. Hell, you know it already or you would use it more freely.

It is with this reduced impact that I experience your use of this 'death-ray.' Really, it's more like a wadded up piece of paper now. The one thing you've used to substantiate your charge -- that my hostile use of the word 'goyim' counts as definitive anti-Semitism -- is quite weak. I didn't create this word or its ugly racist ramifications. It is an obvious weapon, though, and hey I fight dirty.

It's analogous to you assuming my voice, and as you do that using terms like "kike," "hebe," "yid," etc. Would that be fighting dirty? Yeah, probably. Would it automatically qualify you as a "WASP-hater?" No, that's ridiculous. And yet that's the "logic" you're employing here, and that's because you're A) hypersensitive to non-Jews using this word (which again only relates to your own racialist obsessions) and B) you're a dishonest double-standard-dealing snake asshole cum-catcher, as I've established many times now.
 

Aw, darling Becky

Uh, Becky-Bitch, you keep imagining that I care about your opinions as much as I care about a cockroach that's trying to horn in on my lunch. It's so cute!
 

Sometimes people are what they hate

"You represent virtually all that you loath: weak-mindedness, dishonesty, stupidity, bigotry, racism, paranoia, deceitfulness, violence on cyber, sleaziness, silencing ideological opponents by saying the last word at any cost, tendency toward insanity, lying, delusions, zealous fundamentalist-like ideological hostility, impossible to reach, typical of religionists, assumptions accepted without question, grandeur delusions, psychosis, reactionary. Hope I've missed nothing...
In effect, you're one hell of a projecting machine."

Ya gotta hand it to CT--he's a real quick take on YOUR psychological profile, Truth Warrior.
 

Systematically terrorized, murdered, robbed, and denied decent livelihoods by the Zionist State

Becky Johnson says, "As for a refuge for white Christians you have all the RED states in the USA. But where do the Jews go? You see? Its not the same."

Jews are born in and live in many countries, including the United States, where they are not discriminated against anywhere near the amount of Palestinians.

And where do the Palestinians go. Palestinians are systematically discriminated against in all of occupied Palestine (what you call Israel). Those who were driven out through the terrorism of the Zionist State are not even allowed to return to their homes. Those who are driven into Warsaw like WW2 Jewish Ghettos are told they are independent while they are systematically terrorized, murdered, robbed, and denied decent livelihoods by the Zionist State.

And Becky Johnson has the nerve to say, "Watch out! Your double-standards are showing!"
 

So Becky, did you not see the comment above yours?

Or are you so deeply stupid that you couldn't grasp the metaphor?
 

Re: Iman al-Hams route "to school" last Oct. 5th

"Now that I know the "Truth" I will pass this on to 2 billion Christians, 1.3 billion Muslims, 900 million Hindus, 360 million Buddists, and those 14 million Jews you can't stand so much."

Wow, Becky talks to a lot of people.
 

Re: Itsy-Twitsy little dots, part deux

I was composing a gigantic retort for that diatribe when about an hour ago a power outage eliminated my work when I was like 78% done. So I'll now confine myself to a few brief remarks as I'm not in the mood to attempt reconstructing from scratch.

--------------------------------------------------

For any diligent reader who needed additional proof for the deranged "Warrior" being a racist paranoid lunatic, there it is...conflating Zionism with "Judaic extremism" and being positive I'll never admit Christian extremism is "sinister and dangerous". Aside from this being horseshit, why doesn't he lump any other particular national movement together with the religion the dominant population benefiting from that movement belongs to? The answer should be obvious. Why for example isn't he charging Palestinisn with being Islamic extremism?

Maybe this twerp is trying to outdo himself in vitriolic hatred with every new post he makes here. If he actually thinks and speaks this way in a mundane manner in real life, he should at the very least be hauled off to the nearest psychiatric facility and be given a frontal lobotomy and electro-convulsive therapy.
 

I hate when that happens!!

Yeah, losing a whole bunch of work in an instant happens to every writer. Usually by our own error!

I hate to wish the extremes of modern psychiatry on any human being. But perhaps there is some therapy for hate.

Years ago a man who specialized in deprogramming people who were stuck in cults, told me that it's possible to deprogram people stuck in irrational schemas based on hate and bigotry by an intensive de-programming procedure done nearly round the clock for about three or four days.

Neither Critical Thinker nor I have that kind of access to any of you, nor would you welcome it. Until then, you are "lost causes" causing damage with every other person you infect with this malicious hatred of anything to do with Israel.

I can only hope that some or the readers here, who maybe haven't set their minds in stone assured that they "know" the situation better than the people who actually live in Israel.

I am far from an expert. I am not Jewish. I have never been to Israel. I am only one person talking. I used to think just like you do. I was so hip I could even be critical of the JEWS in ISRAEL who had survived the holocaust. I was filled with my own self-righteousness.

When I first heard the things I have been repeating here on these pages at indymedia, I didn't believe them either.

The "Truth" is nothing like what "Truth" Warrior and Steve Argue would have you believe it is. Do your own investigation. If one side says one thing and the other side says the opposite, take some time to do your own research to find out where the truth really lies.
 

Yes indeed!

I'd like to thank Becky for the sympathy she extends for my loss of the retort draft. I really should have done a few savings of the material every few minutes.

On the topic of the damage wrought by the morbid Warrior and his ilk on the IMCs, I'd say I would have totally laughed them off if they didn't represent a slightly amplified version of the misguided assortment of anti-Israel views held by the majority in the West to differing extents. But then again, Israel has its own journalistic anti-Israel cadres, most notably in Ha'aretz. These Israeli anti-Israeli journalists cause untold PR damage to Israel and the Israelis with their biased reporting. Just this weak I noticed one of their reports that was published in Indybay spoke of Ramat Rahel -- a Kibbutz just south of Jerusalem -- as a "settlement" built after 1967, though in actuality it was founded in 1926! Was the Ha'aretz reporter just being sloppy or was he lying? Who knows.

As you have seen or are about to see, also JA is among the professional hatemongers who cannot be reached.

In closing, I'd like to share a quite interesting and illuminating report I stumbled on today concerning the real demographics in the disputed territories: www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite
 

Re: power outage

I must say, CT, the temptation to hit you while you're down is strong, but this has happened to me too and I know how much it sucks. I sympathize.

As for this stuff:

CT: "he should at the very least be hauled off to the nearest psychiatric facility and be given a frontal lobotomy and electro-convulsive therapy."

Becky: "it's possible to deprogram people stuck in irrational schemas based on hate and bigotry by an intensive de-programming procedure done nearly round the clock for about three or four days."

It is simply unbelievable to see these things being said by people who have made so much rhetorical hay of Nazi super-villainy. Your intellectual dishonesty is truly world-class. Dr. Mengele would have cherished your company. If this is meant to intimidate me, it doesn't. What it does is validate everything I've said about you two: you're both fascists.

Hey Becky: Ah yes, 'attitude adjustment' through operant conditioning combined with sleep deprivation. That's been the favorite political torture method of U.S. spooks for decades. Spare us your bullshit that this is 'therapy.' It's nearly as destructive as CT's recommendation, especially in the hands of a vicious ideologue, e.g. yourself. And THAT characterization, darling, is borne out by your posture on Iman al-Hams. To anyone sane, that is.

If it works as you say, though, maybe shrinks should start using it on IDF jarheads...
 

Another explanatory note

Another reason I have opposed you so ferociously, CT, is because here you are an obviously conservative zionist Israeli, devoting huge amounts of time and energy to hectoring and badgering a U.S. LEFTIST website. If there were no criticism of Israel happening here, you wouldn't spend two minutes here. But there is, and you can't stand that. You can't stand that people who've been alienated by Israel's policies, here in this country on the other side of the planet from you, might find a place where they can affirm each other's views without an asshole like you shoving his face into it and screaming them down.

You don't belong here. Get your screaming face out of my country and out of my politics, because you have no stake in either. This is so crystal clear about you, just as it's crystal clear about all the other zionist "thought police" who now infest EVERY U.S. leftist forum.

As long as you keep doing this plainly rude and ideologically rabid thing, I will continue to fight you tooth and claw. I have seen all I can stand of the "zionist gatekeeper" phenomenon -- now I'm gonna do some "gatekeeping" of my own. And I'll keep kicking your ass, too, cuz I have a right to this turf and you don't. Yeah, it DOES matter.
 

Warring for "truth"

Deranged Warrior:
"Another reason I have opposed you so ferociously, CT, is because here you are an obviously conservative zionist Israeli, devoting huge amounts of time and energy to hectoring and badgering a U.S. LEFTIST website."

No, if anything I've been hectoring and badgering some rabid anti-Zionist radical leftists who are hell bent on proactively repeating their plethora of anti-Israel lies and apologetics for Palestinian and Islamist terror in a strident manner, as if it's not bad enough that they love, support and excuse the people committing all this anti-Jewish, anti-Israel and anti-Western violence.
My beef isn't with this website, not even as a far leftist one.

Deranged Warrior:
"If there were no criticism of Israel happening here, you wouldn't spend two minutes here. But there is, and you can't stand that."

You're twisting again.
What I take issue with is *unjustified criticism* based on outright lies, half-truths, deliberate wild hyperbole and distortions. I would barely say a word in response to fair and contextual criticism of Israel. But see, that's the catch. Hate consumed people like you and your comrade Argue are nearly incapable of producing only fair critiques of Israel. I know an anti-Zionist on Indybay who is much better in that department and isn't afflicted by the emotional and mental issues you and Argue suffer from and compel you to keep droning the falsehoods on.

Deranged Warrior:
"You can't stand that people who've been alienated by Israel's policies, here in this country on the other side of the planet from you, might find a place where they can affirm each other's views without an asshole like you shoving his face into it and screaming them down."

Yet another twist.
I surely can stomach written input by people who have developed a gripe against certain Israeli policies anywhere in cyber. What I find hard to leave uncontested is when folks who had turned themselves into obsessive anti-Israel and/or pro-Palestinians hacks repeatedly rant and rave spewing stuff divorced from reality and expect everybody else, including underinformed people, to accept their utterings as gospel. If you had your way in every instance, fair minded underinformed people would have to swallow all the lies you spout. I've already witnessed just such a person on the cesspool called SF-IMC hanging for days undecided between the rabid anti-Zionist and pro-Israeli sides, ultimately resolving to side with the latter due to the efforts by Gehrig and myself.

Deranged Warrior:
"You don't belong here. Get your screaming face out of my country and out of my politics, because you have no stake in either."

I'm not interfering in American internal affairs and US politics. But I'm so enthused about allowing you to shit out all your mendacious dung about Israel, Zionism and my people uninterrupted. That's really why I've been here.

Deranged Warrior:
"This is so crystal clear about you, just as it's crystal clear about all the other zionist "thought police" who now infest EVERY U.S. leftist forum."

I'm not frequenting IMCs to stifle debate. I'm here to expose all kinds of crap you and your cohorts constantly emit about the issues I comment on. I and some other Jews and non-Jews alike, are fed up with seeing all the shit you (in the plural) dish out go unchallenged. In contrast to us, I see you and your ilk seeking to impose your version of things on everybody else in a dogmatic fervor that's probably second only to the reactionary Catholic dogma of the late Middle Ages.

Deranged Warrior:
"As long as you keep doing this plainly rude and ideologically rabid thing, I will continue to fight you tooth and claw. And I'll keep kicking your ass, too, cuz I have a right to this turf and you don't."

You're full of shit.
I seem rude and ideologically rabid to you mostly because I don't always let your highly irrational slander go unchallenged. Well, I'm delighted to know I'm perceived this way by you. And you may rub your body odor and piss on this site all you want in a demonstration of territorial behavior, but *everyone* deserves to roam this turf and have their say, that is except the people who seek to bring it down by spamming, hacking and cracking it.

CT: "he should at the very least be hauled off to the nearest psychiatric facility and be given a frontal lobotomy and electro-convulsive therapy."

Becky:
"it's possible to deprogram people stuck in irrational schemas based on hate and bigotry by an intensive de-programming procedure done nearly round the clock for about three or four days."

Deranged Warrior:
"It is simply unbelievable to see these things being said by people who have made so much rhetorical hay of Nazi super-villainy. Your intellectual dishonesty is truly world-class. Dr. Mengele would have cherished your company."

What hugwash. For one, the means Becky and I mention are nowhere near the Nazi atrocities in terms of cruelty. For another, you're again engaging in that projective behavior, validating what I said that you're responding to.

Deranged Warrior:
"If this is meant to intimidate me, it doesn't. What it does is validate everything I've said about you two: you're both fascists."

I doubt I could dream of being able to intimidate such a fervidly zealous lying deluded hack like you. Now, I would have to become extremely angry to suggest a forceful deprogramming session in the 1960s CIA style as once performed in Canada. I do believe though there's an excellent chance you answer to the criterion Becky Johnson alluded to and could benefit enormously from an effective deprogramming session performed in the most benign manner possible.

Come to think of it, I must concede Becky Johnson's deprogramming idea is better than mine, much better.
 

A tiny word omitted

Correcting one passage to read:

I'm not interfering in American internal affairs and US politics. But I'm not so enthused about allowing you to shit out all your mendacious dung about Israel, Zionism and my people uninterrupted. That's really why I've been here.
 

Hey asshole you forgot those last three sentences

As usual, it's your omissions that say the most.
 

A**hole Report

Nice mouth Mustafa....
 

A little more on deprogramming hate-mongers

I'm sure this is going to give Truth Warper orgasmic conniptions in which to extrapolate bizzare conspiracies about my alleged evil Zionist connections when I tell her(?) the following, but here goes anyway:

I got to know an Israeli Lubavitch Rabbi who worked as a deprogrammer. He only worked with Jewish families, and he was able to re-unite parents with (mostly grown) children after they had gotten taken up by a cult.

Those seedy stories of people being kidnapped and held against their will while the deprogrammers hammered at them around the clock may have happened somewhere with some people, but he used no such methods.

All he did was find the kid and talk to them. Over time, he was able to convince them that the cult-theology-organization had been playing mind games with their heads, using falsified information, and had purposely tried to break their bonds with their parents and family.

Some of the cults he was involved with were the Scientologists, the Moonies, Jews for Jesus, the Hare Krishna. He felt the the Palestinians have been so heavily indoctrinated with hate against Israel and the Jews, that each one of them needs to be deprogrammed.

That is when he outlined to me the method, that if employed would work. Perhaps a family member could talk a person into taking the treatment? In any case, I certainly was not suggesting that any treatment be coercive.

Hey, Truth (?) Warrior?? I'm surprised to hear you get so darn territorial. "THIS IS MY FREE SPEECH!!" What a dip!

I live in Santa Cruz. Do you??? What makes you so invited here? Personally I welcome CT's input and have learned a lot in these forums.

The thing you seem to have forgotten is that one of the great things about democracy and freedom is EVERYONE gets to express their point of view. Even those with unpopular views.

For you to insist on making this a territorial turf battle or for someone to post a death threat on this very site against Lee Kaplan and myself is just the opposite of freedom or democracy.
 

Re: a little more on deprogramming hate-mongers

A year and a half ago I floated on SF-IMC the notion of putting into practice a sort of Marshal Plan tailored to the needs of the Palestinian population, including an important element of deprogramming. Back then I said it should be applied on the basis of the lessons learned from the de-Nazification of the erstwhile Western Germany.
 

Re: Becky's latest putrid apologetics

No Becky, the Palestinian arrested for firing into the air is called a P-A-T-S-Y

For someone who pretends to consider all sides, you have an amazing ability to swallow the official Israeli disinfo version without question, as if reading it out of the jpost or some such rag is like seeing it with your own eyes. This is not skepticism.

The trajectory of the bullet was flat. It took a horizontal path, entering beneath her nose and exiting the back of her head. This bullet was not fired "into the air" -- those don't come down nearly as fast as they go up. They come down at their terminal velocity, which is much slower. It's fast enough to hurt you, if it's a large caliber (higher mass & terminal velocity) it might even penetrate a kid's cranium, but blasting a hole straight through it, especially through the complex bones of the face is simply out of the question. This "fact" you're referencing about bullets fired into the air is just another childish myth you accept unthinkingly, much like the one about Palestinians all being VIE-YULL DEE-MONS!!! Aaargh!! SNARL!!! and stupid as rocks while Israelis are just widdle flit-ting goo-goo angels with widdle harps. Aw!

Nor was this a single errant bullet. The schoolyard was hit with a BURST of bullets. Another girl in the yard was shot through the hand. It's all much more consistent with Barbara Lubin's version than with yours.

Your claim that you were EVER a leftist is super gross. The character Newt in the movie "Aliens" could have been talking about you: "But Ripley, HER head's made of PLASTIC!"

Here's what really happened to you: you were a shallow poser who wanted to hang with the cool kids, and then you had kids yourself, which made you a super-conservative latent bigot, cuz it can do that. It alters your brain. As with so many things, you're too weak-minded to figure this out, and like so many Americans who style themselves "leftists" you're actually anything but this. That takes REAL free thought, not this manipulative histrionic horseshit you're peddling.

All of which makes the following extremely offensive:
"What if you were in Nazi Germany in the 1930's and somehow you KNEW the Jewish holocaust was coming, wouldn't you feel moved to act to stop it?"

In 1930s Germany, and everywhere else in Europe for that matter, it wasn't conservatives like you who fought Hitler. They were too busy jostling with each other to slurp him off. The people who fought him were the REAL leftists: the communists, anarchists, syndicalists, etc., i.e. the brilliant courageous principled types you see fit to sneer at, like Chomsky and Goodman.

How do I know all this about you? Because you ARE in Nazi Germany, stupid ass. RIGHT NOW. You're in a fascist imperial state that's whipping up a mass psychosis of race-hatred as a means to advance empire, the only difference being a trivial matter of who's targeted. This time it's Arabs. And how are you reacting to this? "Oh mwy Gwod, Clairisse, we have to kill all dese ragheads, they're so ee-vull ! Hey pass duh clamm chowdah." You are EXACTLY like the complacent disgusting German Middle Class who massaged their tonsils with Hitler's cock as the Jews burned because they thought it would make them and their kids safe.

When you get your lungs sucked out through your mouth in a firestorm like they did in Dresden and Hamburg, now you'll know why.

This goes DOUBLE for you CT. Pop that scrambled vicious brain out of your head, wipe the memory, and drop it into a blonde-haired blue-eyed body named Von Klugensturm or some shit back in 1930s Germany, and Hitler would have

BEEN

YOUR

GOD!!

It all goes hand in talon with the way you hate leftists. That it was the leftists like Tito who opposed them with incredibly courageous guerrilla wars, or that the United States employed ex-Nazis following the war to help them slaughter those same leftists, and in so many other ways just took up right where the Nazis left off -- the significance of all this is entirely lost on you. "Hey, let's cozy up and suck America's cock now. Mmm, yummy, tastes like charred sauerbraten just like Ariel's. When do we get our F-16s?"
That is the full measure of your dishonesty.
 

Where's the proof for Truth Warper's version?

Truth Warper fails to back up his version that the Palestinian man arrested by the PA police was a patsy. Are we to take TW's claim at face value? Why? Are his rags any more credible than the JPost? Why should we believe anti-Zionist rags more credible than those that aren't decidedly anti-Zionist? Did TW see the incident unfolding with his own eyes? And what compelling reason is there to believe Barbara Lubin that it must have been (an) Israeli soldier/s?

That Palestinian may have well fired into the air horizontally.


Look, Truth Warper, it's becoming clearer by every post you make on this thread or by the day that you're terminally ill, what with continually de facto branding the US Nazi Germany. Fortunately for you, you'll never be able to recite all your morbid musings right in my face. I don't stand for listening to a person spouting your sort of hateful venomous crap in my face without reacting violently. You probably would have felt completely at home among the Islamo-Nazi Hamas members in Gaza.

I'll keep your morbid hatred in mind next time I'm called to serve in the disputed territories. I've already had a few run ins with ISM characters and am proud I have had opportunities to inconvenience them a bit. Hopefully I'll be able to get more chances to cause your communist comrades there some more displeasure. I'll be sure to tell them how I've dealt with you as their red comrade on cyber, so as to show them they'll find themselves under pressure no matter where they turn for having resolved to try to make my country more vulnerable to Palestinian terror.

What do you know about honesty, filthy Truth Warper psycho?
 

HAAA-haa-ha-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

"Truth Warper fails to back up his version..."

Truly hilarious. This from a guy who NEVER 'backs up' ANYTHING, just shits it out of his keyboard unsourced like he's Moses coming down off the mountain.

Hey psycho-bigot, about your "service" in the disputed territories: bring it on, baby. The more of an asshole you and the other brownshirts are to the Human Rights people, the more surely the last shreds of legitimacy will slip through your fingers. NO ONE on my side will EVER forget Rachel Corrie and Jeffrey Hurndall.

Hey, is it true that you and the other Sturm Abteilungen wear baby-ear necklaces?
 

Re: That Palestinian may have well fired into the air horizontally.

Your semifluency is showing. In American English usage, your sentence is self-contradicting
 

Human Rights people?! Puh-leeaze!

These rabid anti-Zionists stand for human rights of Palestinian terrorists and combatants; any Palestinian who'd go against the line dictated by the terrorist factions, they'd never try to stick up for his or her human rights, let alone any Israeli people, be they Jewish or not. Human Rights people my ass!

As to that pair of ISM idiots you're naming, the second is Tom Hurndall, not Jeffrey. And I wouldn't expect a vicious deranged dingbat like you to forget these enablers of Palestinian terror or to stop trumpeting your repeated lie that Corrie was murdered. There's apparently too much at stake for your sorry ass to lose if you desist from flinging Corrie's stupidity in everybody's faces.

You keep doing what's totally natural to you, namely raving at the top of your lungs, because you know you and your sorry ISM comrade jerks are on the losing side in their meddling in the conflict in the Land of Israel.


In case you've forgotten, we're still waiting for you to provide back up for Lubin's version. All the red herrings you may pull won't cut it.
 

retraction

The 'Sturm Abteilungen' shot was too low even for my taste. I'm sorry, CT.
 

Truth Warper fails to back up his version

Hey! I take it you're pretending to appease me by posting a moronic retraction you don't even mean, probably to divert attention from your inability to back up your support for Barbara Lubin's argument. Thanks for playing.
 

Re: Iman al-Hams route "to school" last Oct. 5th

"Rachel Corrie and Jeffrey Hurndall"

Never forget that:
Rachel Corrie died of stupidity.
Hurndall was shot by an Arab member of the Israeli military.
 

I know it for a fact (duh, slobber)

I saw it on FOX News

re: Rachel Corrie died of stupidity.
Hurndall was shot by an Arab member of the Israeli military.

Hurndall's shooter was Bedouin, and are you pretending this makes it not matter? Typical bigot move, zio-snake, good work.
 

Apology retracted

Uh no, asshole, the apology was actually entirely sincere. As for why I bothered, this is quite mysterious now. For the Barbara Lubin thing go to the other thread
 

No Rhyme or Reason for pulling posts

IMC workers have again pulled my most recent post to this thread without any rhyme or reason.
My remarks were not based on personal attacks, but simply were part of a discussion and debate.

IMC has 'rules' but many people who post dont know the rules or follow them. What is worse, IMC seems to be arbitrarily deleteing posts for specious reasons or for no known reason at all.

Either the rules apply to everyone or you don't enforce rules on anyone, but simply suggest guidelines.

What is happening right now is undemocratic, arbitrary, petty, and not in the spirit of IMC.
 

Well, maybe you can get some JDL types to firebomb them

Come on, Becky, just give in to your true self
 

Why are you advocating violence?

If your posts were getting pulled for no good reason you would be peeved too. Just because the IMC monitor has a different opinion does not give him/her the right to pull a post.

The essence of democracy is that even unpopular speech is allowed. You blame the 'corporate' media for being biased and then you demonstrate your own bias and suppression of dissent. Doesn't Indymedia aspire to have higher standards? A people's media. Where ordinary people can have a voice.
 

Re: Iman al-Hams route "to school" last Oct. 5th

"Just because the IMC monitor has a different opinion does not give him/her the right to pull a post..."

If it doesn't fit the guidelines of what the IMC monitors have determined for this site, then yes, they do have that right to pull a post.

I don't know who pulled the post you refer to, nor the content of the post in question, but I'll bet it crossed a line somehow...

However, you raise a good point. IMHO, IMC editors should explain why a certain post is pulled.
 

Calendar

No events for this day.

view calendar week
add an event

Views

Media Centers

Syndication feeds

Account Login

This site made manifest by dadaIMC software