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Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

Prominent Jews’ December, 1948 Letter To New York Times
albert_einstein.gif
Letter to the New York Times:
New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed


Below is a copy in its entirety of a very important letter to the New York Times from Jewish intellectuals including Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt and Sidney Hook that appeared on December 4, 1948. While it is quoted from in brief on several web sites, it appears nowhere in its entirety, and it deserves to be disseminated as it originally appears.

— John Wheat Gibson
August 2, 2002


Letters to the New York Times
December 4, 1948

New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party? (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants — 240 men, women, and children — and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State? is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin. The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE

New York, Dec. 2, 1948



Source notes: Laura Nader gave a copy of the microfilmed NYT to Anne Lipow in April [2002]. (Nader has been using it in her class at UC). The copy was illegible in parts and the first column was cut off; Laura’s original was the same. Anne and UC Anthropology Librarian Suzanne Calpestri then tried to retrieve an electronic version of the letter. It appears nowhere in its entirety on the Internet, and is not in any NYT electronic archive accessible to UC Librarians (i.e., it doesn’t exist). Suzanne made another copy from a different microfilm; it solved the mystery of the missing first column but this copy was also “dirty? in other areas. Neither copy was scannable using OCR, so I typed it in by hand exactly the way it appeared in the original, and have proofed it carefully. However, the spelling of some of the signatories was unclear in the microfilmed originals, so there may be a few errors in this rendition. It would be nice if someone were to annotate the list of signatories, so that those less-familiar names could be placed in context. At any rate, this clearly belongs IN FULL TEXT on the web for distribution to as many people as possible. Please circulate this among anyone you think may be interested; I think it especially belongs in the hands of those friends and family members who are still reluctant to criticize the Israeli government.

Source info:
Jenny Lipow, Berkeley, CA
John Wheat Gibson
 
 


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Comments

Forged Letter is evidence of nothing!!

This letter is a fake.

I contacted my sources at DAFKA and they put me in touch with Peter Friedman, a collector of letters by famous personages. He sent me the following reply:

Peter Friedman writes:

This letter fairly mirrors the "Protocols of Zion" in that it appears to have been a forgery! In fact, the original signed letter does not exist, only fragments of the NYT edition when it was printed. Even the NYT does not have a "conformed" copy.

On the otherhand, Einstein, as well as several of the other alleged "signers" were avowed Socialists and supporters of Communism as many had emigrated from Russia and Russian-controlled territories. Einstein and the others had written extensively on the creation of Israel and the problems it faced, especially in 1948 after the Arab invasion was repulsed. Begin joined the Irgun, and gradually headed the organization, which can only be compared today to our Delta Force. The Irgun operated outside of the quasi-organized IDF and mainly harassed the British once the British decided not to cooperate anymore with the Arabs. The Irgun was responsible for blowing up the King Davids Hotel, which was the headquarters for the British, which really convinced the British to leave!

What is interesting about the letter is that the Red Cross fully investigated the Deir Yassin "Massacre" prior to the letter and discovered that what the Arabs had reported happened, in fact, never occurred! Deir Yassin was a on a hilltop overlooking Jerusalem and commanded the lookout to the Jerusalem road. In fact, the Red CRoss discovered that the town was full of Iraqi soldiers who had infiltrated, many of whom were disguised as women! They approached Israeli soldiers with their hands raised, and then gunned them down! The Arabs took pictures of the Iraqi soldiers disguised as women and published them to frighten the surrounding Arab communities. Again, the Deir Yassin incident was debunked by the time this letter went to the NYT.

The problem is that, as now, there are Jews who are aligned with the Left, and some who are downright Communists such as those who were prevalent in the 20's, 30's and 40's. These Jews, just like today, aligned with anyone who was attrempting to defeat Fascism of any kind! Begin, of course, was a Nationalist [read Zionist!] who wanted Israel for the Jews! If you were to take a literal definition of "Fascist", you could make the "intellectual" case that any "Nationalist" is, by that definition, a Fascist. Of course this is wrong, but there are those in our society who are willing to grab onto any little snippet that elevates their cause and belief!

Therefore, based upon the writings and public statements of the alleged signers of this letter to the NYT, it appears, and has always appeared to be a very clever forgery compiled from these public statements and writings. Again, the original letter does NOT exist, which has made it suspect all these years. Maybe Dan Rather knows where it is??? Anything of this magnitude would have been eagerly collected and would be in any of the various Einstein archives, which it is not. It also does not appear as a copy in any of the alleged signer's copies. More imprtantly, because of Einstein's Left-leanings, the FBI investigated him extensively and created a massive dossier on him, which includes copies of most of his writings. This letter is not even mentioned in the FBI files! Einstein was very much against the McCarthy hearings and published numerous statements about them, as did many of the other alleged signers. The FBI was keenly aware that there were a great number of Leftist Jews who were being investigated by McCarthy, especially in our nuclear program and in Hollywood. The major movie companies were all owned by Jews, many of whom were making propaganda movies supporting Stalin! Also, Einstein was working on secret nuclear programs, which made him a prime investigative target of the FBI for many years until his death.

In conclusion, all collectors and other persons of intelligence see the "letter" as nothing more than what we just went thru with Dan Rather and CBS with the forged Bush letters!





Peter M. Friedman
Concord, CA

also: Lee Kaplan of DAFKA writes: The Einstein letter is a concoction as usual. Einstein was a Zionist and supported a Jewish state. One of my board members from DAFKA has photo of him next to Ben Gurion. The "letter" goes in with the other fakes such as the "interview" with Ariel Sharon in Gaza in 1954 when he was supposedly a general and advocating murdering the Arabs (he was a college student back then and not even in the army).

Letters claiming Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. was against a Jewish state have also been posted on Arab websites. These are fakes also.

BECKY: You have to wonder why people would try so hard to make Israel look bad in the eyes of Americans that they would stoop to using forged "evidence."
 

Cred-ee-BULL!!

"I contacted my sources at DAFKA..."

might as well read

"I contacted my sources at stormfront.org, and they said Hitler and the other glorious heroes of the Third Reich never did all that stuff..."

There's a slight problem here of clear and extreme bias...

If NYT no longer has the original of this letter, that's probably because some zionist within their organization -- like, say, the publisher -- personally removed it from the archives and burned it.

What Becky and her "sources" are really doing, in their characteristic sleazy underhanded way, is answering this topic by not answering it at all and instead red-baiting Einstein to defame him. If Einstein was a communist, this is a feather in communism's cap.
 

Yeah rrrrrright

"If NYT no longer has the original of this letter, that's probably because some zionist within their organization -- like, say, the publisher -- personally removed it from the archives and burned it."

Proof, anyone? Or do we have to settle for the usual paranoid bullshit by the professional hate mongering idiots?
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

This letter was not completely lost; it was on microfilm and has been transcribed for you to read. Scholars and archeologists at UC have done this work.

The extremist Zionists of Dafka have presented no evidence that suggests any wrong doing by these scholars.

Likewise the Zionist murder of innocents at Deir Yassin is well established.

As for the attacks on Albert Einstein's socialist thought I will let him defend himself with the following essay:


This essay was originally published in the first issue of Monthly Review (May 1949).

Why Socialism?
by Albert Einstein

Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is.

Let us first consider the question from the point of view of scientific knowledge. It might appear that there are no essential methodological differences between astronomy and economics: scientists in both fields attempt to discover laws of general acceptability for a circumscribed group of phenomena in order to make the interconnection of these phenomena as clearly understandable as possible. But in reality such methodological differences do exist. The discovery of general laws in the field of economics is made difficult by the circumstance that observed economic phenomena are often affected by many factors which are very hard to evaluate separately. In addition, the experience which has accumulated since the beginning of the so-called civilized period of human history has—as is well known—been largely influenced and limited by causes which are by no means exclusively economic in nature. For example, most of the major states of history owed their existence to conquest. The conquering peoples established themselves, legally and economically, as the privileged class of the conquered country. They seized for themselves a monopoly of the land ownership and appointed a priesthood from among their own ranks. The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior.

But historic tradition is, so to speak, of yesterday; nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called "the predatory phase" of human development. The observable economic facts belong to that phase and even such laws as we can derive from them are not applicable to other phases. Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future.

Second, socialism is directed towards a social-ethical end. Science, however, cannot create ends and, even less, instill them in human beings; science, at most, can supply the means by which to attain certain ends. But the ends themselves are conceived by personalities with lofty ethical ideals and—if these ends are not stillborn, but vital and vigorous—are adopted and carried forward by those many human beings who, half unconsciously, determine the slow evolution of society.

For these reasons, we should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.

Innumerable voices have been asserting for some time now that human society is passing through a crisis, that its stability has been gravely shattered. It is characteristic of such a situation that individuals feel indifferent or even hostile toward the group, small or large, to which they belong. In order to illustrate my meaning, let me record here a personal experience. I recently discussed with an intelligent and well-disposed man the threat of another war, which in my opinion would seriously endanger the existence of mankind, and I remarked that only a supra-national organization would offer protection from that danger. Thereupon my visitor, very calmly and coolly, said to me: "Why are you so deeply opposed to the disappearance of the human race?"

I am sure that as little as a century ago no one would have so lightly made a statement of this kind. It is the statement of a man who has striven in vain to attain an equilibrium within himself and has more or less lost hope of succeeding. It is the expression of a painful solitude and isolation from which so many people are suffering in these days. What is the cause? Is there a way out?

It is easy to raise such questions, but difficult to answer them with any degree of assurance. I must try, however, as best I can, although I am very conscious of the fact that our feelings and strivings are often contradictory and obscure and that they cannot be expressed in easy and simple formulas.

Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting, strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society. It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior. The abstract concept "society" means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society—in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence—that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is "society" which provides man with food, clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of the many millions past and present who are all hidden behind the small word "society."

It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished—just as in the case of ants and bees. However, while the whole life process of ants and bees is fixed down to the smallest detail by rigid, hereditary instincts, the social pattern and interrelationships of human beings are very variable and susceptible to change. Memory, the capacity to make new combinations, the gift of oral communication have made possible developments among human being which are not dictated by biological necessities. Such developments manifest themselves in traditions, institutions, and organizations; in literature; in scientific and engineering accomplishments; in works of art. This explains how it happens that, in a certain sense, man can influence his life through his own conduct, and that in this process conscious thinking and wanting can play a part.

Man acquires at birth, through heredity, a biological constitution which we must consider fixed and unalterable, including the natural urges which are characteristic of the human species. In addition, during his lifetime, he acquires a cultural constitution which he adopts from society through communication and through many other types of influences. It is this cultural constitution which, with the passage of time, is subject to change and which determines to a very large extent the relationship between the individual and society. Modern anthropology has taught us, through comparative investigation of so-called primitive cultures, that the social behavior of human beings may differ greatly, depending upon prevailing cultural patterns and the types of organization which predominate in society. It is on this that those who are striving to improve the lot of man may ground their hopes: human beings are not condemned, because of their biological constitution, to annihilate each other or to be at the mercy of a cruel, self-inflicted fate.

If we ask ourselves how the structure of society and the cultural attitude of man should be changed in order to make human life as satisfying as possible, we should constantly be conscious of the fact that there are certain conditions which we are unable to modify. As mentioned before, the biological nature of man is, for all practical purposes, not subject to change. Furthermore, technological and demographic developments of the last few centuries have created conditions which are here to stay. In relatively densely settled populations with the goods which are indispensable to their continued existence, an extreme division of labor and a highly-centralized productive apparatus are absolutely necessary. The time—which, looking back, seems so idyllic—is gone forever when individuals or relatively small groups could be completely self-sufficient. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that mankind constitutes even now a planetary community of production and consumption.

I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor—not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production—that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods—may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.

For the sake of simplicity, in the discussion that follows I shall call "workers" all those who do not share in the ownership of the means of production—although this does not quite correspond to the customary use of the term. The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist. The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. Insofar as the labor contract is "free," what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists' requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.

Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.

The situation prevailing in an economy based on the private ownership of capital is thus characterized by two main principles: first, means of production (capital) are privately owned and the owners dispose of them as they see fit; second, the labor contract is free. Of course, there is no such thing as a pure capitalist society in this sense. In particular, it should be noted that the workers, through long and bitter political struggles, have succeeded in securing a somewhat improved form of the "free labor contract" for certain categories of workers. But taken as a whole, the present day economy does not differ much from "pure" capitalism.

Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an "army of unemployed" almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers' goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

Nevertheless, it is necessary to remember that a planned economy is not yet socialism. A planned economy as such may be accompanied by the complete enslavement of the individual. The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?

Clarity about the aims and problems of socialism is of greatest significance in our age of transition. Since, under present circumstances, free and unhindered discussion of these problems has come under a powerful taboo, I consider the foundation of this magazine to be an important public service.
 

Forged letter on microfilm is nowhere in NYT's, in Einsteins effects, nor in the effects of ANY of the authors

Steve--the letter is a fake.

Its NOT in the NYT's archives.
No one has a copy of the paper with it in it.
No person who "signed" the letter has a copy in their files.
And it doesn't appear in Einstein's effects.
Nor has this letter surfaced before.

It is a fake.

And UNLESS you can provide some PROOF to the contrary, you are trying to make a case with forged "evidence".

Readers should demand better from Steve Argue!

In fact, readers should ask Steve Argue to support many of the wild accusations he has made against Israel with more than one "eyewitness" account endlessly repeated.
 

"Readers should demand better from Steve Argue"

Steve Argue's readers here currently fall into two categories:

(a) those who don't accept his fabrications but would expect him to lie on Zionist pertinent topics, and
(b) those who do accept his lies and therefore will never challenge them.

Category (a) knows Argue can't support the unbridled charges he keeps making against Zionists and Israelis in particular, so they don't demand he try.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

mohamed1.jpg
mohamed2.jpg
mohamed3.jpg
Steven Argue has not exaggerated Zionist crimes.

On September 30th, 2000, a Palestinian, caught in the crossfire, tries to protect his 12-year-old son in Netzarim (Gaza), he tries to signal to the Israeli Army their presence. After a long time and to the amazement of the people across the street and under the eyes of the world community, they were shot. The boy was fatally hit in the abdomen and the father critically wounded. Israeli military later admitted that the boy and father were shot by Israeli forces. The Israeli government never apologized but blamed the boy for being there.
 

IDF not responsible for Mohammed Durra, Iman al-Hams, OR Nouran Deeb

Observation has it backwards: Very soon after the incident, caught on film by Dutch TV, the IDF apologized for the death. Later, when an extensive investigation was completed, it concluded that there was no way the IDF could have fired the fatal shots due to the angles at which the bullets traveled. Since then, the IDF has a new policy to not apologise until the investigation has been completed.

"At the same time, not every incident that is reported as a case of brutality or humiliation is one, as we know from the infamous story of Mohammed Durra, the Palestinian child whose supposed martyrdom at the hands an Israeli sniper in the year 2000 turned him into an international icon even after clear evidence showed that he was killed by Palestinians."

Sources:www.camera.org/index.asp
 

BECKY, YOU LIED ABOUT A *WAR*...!!

While you claimed that Barbara lied about a child.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

Israeli analysis of available video footage and a recreation of the event is said to indicate that the bullets that struck the al-Duras were fired from the “wrong? angle. Rather than coming from a position 30° to wall—where the Israeli soldiers were and a position to which the al-Duras were shielded by the concrete barrel—the bullets are said to have come from a position perpendicular to the wall, the position from which the incident was being filmed and a position to which the al-Duras were exposed. And where there were no known Israeli soldiers.

From this circumstantial evidence, which the Israeli government claims are “persuasive?, some have concluded that Israelis did not kill Mohammed al-Dura; Palestinians did. Some have even concluded that entire event was staged and that al-Dura was not killed at all. In either scenario, the Palestinian motive is the same: “To manufacture a child martyr, in correct anticipation of the damage this would do to Israel in the eyes of the world—especially the Islamic world.?

In the words of Nahum Shahaf, the Israeli physicist and engineer who instigated and led the revisionist analysis and whom Fallows quotes:

"I believe that one day there will be good things in common between us and the Palestinians. … But the case of Mohammed al-Dura brings the big flames between Israel and the Palestinians and Arabs. It brings a big wall of hate. They can say this is the proof, the ultimate proof, that Israeli soldiers are boy-murderers. And that hatred breaks any chance of having something good in the future."

The revisionist analysis is thus offered as proof of two things. First, that Israeli soldiers did not kill Mohammed al-Dura. Second, and in some ways more rhetorically and politically important, that Palestinians will do anything in their propaganda war against Israel—including perhaps killing one of their own children.

And it is in this larger “artistic?, symbolic sense of truth that the image of Mohammed al-Dura has swept the Arab world and beyond. Not because it “proved? something that people didn’t already know, but because it perfectly represented something that they already “knew? too well. The critical question, therefore, is not whether the particular boy Mohammed al-Dura was or was not killed by Israeli soldiers on 30 September 2000 near the Netzarim settlement in Gaza. Rather, the critical question is whether or not Mohammed al-Dura being killed by Israeli soldiers represented a certain type of event that “probably or necessarily? happens quite regularly—a type of event that in its starkest form boils down to older adolescent males armed with the most advanced weaponry on one side killing younger adolescent males armed with the most primitive weaponry on the other.

In other words, the critical question in an examination of the dynamics of Mohammed al-Dura’s “martyrdom? is not whether the singular “Story of Mohammed al-Dura? is true, but whether the universal “Mohammed al-Dura Story? is true.

And the sad, incontrovertible fact is that the universal “Mohammed al-Dura Story? is true. According to multiple, credible international, American and Israeli sources, Israeli soldiers do kill little Palestinian boys on a regular basis. Sometimes for throwing rocks. Sometimes because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. And sometimes (apparently) for sport. (See, for example: “Killing the Future: Children in the Line of Fire?, Amnesty International, 30 September 2002; “A Gaza Diary: Scenes from the Palestinian Uprising? by New York Times reporter Chris Hedges, Harper’s Magazine, October 2001; and “Don’t Shoot Till You Can See They’re Over the Age of 12? by Amira Hass, Ha’aretz, 20 November 2000.)

According to B’Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, Israeli security forces killed 2,038 Palestinians between 29 September 2000 and 11 May 2003. Of these, 366 (18%) were minors under the age of 18. Indeed, by the end of the second day of the al-Aqsa Intifada, the day on which Mohammed al-Dura died, 15 Palestinians had already been killed. Of these, four (27%) were minors. Besides Mohammad al-Dura, whose death was so graphically captured on video, B’Tselem reports these otherwise-invisible child casualties:

· Khaled 'Adli al-Baziyan, age 15, from Nablus, killed by Israeli security forces live gunfire to the head in Nablus/The West Bank

· Nizar Mahmud 'Abd al-'Ayedeh, age 16, from Deir 'Ammar/Ramallah, killed by Israeli security forces gunfire to the chest in Ramallah/The West Bank

· 'Iyyad Ahmad al-Khashashi, age 16, from Nablus, killed by Israeli security forces live gunfire in Nablus/The West Bank

The day after Mohammad al-Dura died, four more minors—including another 12-year-old, Samer Samir Sudki Tabanjeh—were killed by Israeli security forces.

(By comparison, B’Tselem reports that between 29 September 2000 and 11 May 2003 Palestinians killed 483 Israeli civilians and 216 Israeli security personnel, or 699 total. Of these, 92 or 13% were minors. By the end of the second day of the intifada one Israeli soldier but no Israeli civilians, and therefore no Israeli minors, had been killed. Further information is available at www.btselem.org.)

Of course, the standard Israeli explanation is that Palestinian casualties consist of “terrorists? and unavoidable “collateral damage?. And no doubt many are. But there is equally no doubt that many Palestinians, including children, are victims of Israeli predation consciously intended to “break them? physically, mentally and economically so that they will, one by one, despair and drift away to other places where life will be better and easier for them and where their children will have a future.

The Israeli government consistently lies to cover-up their crimes. The true story of the murder of this 12 year child is likely to be one where he was murdered by the Israeli Army, but Israeli propaganda has done its job in attempting to cast doubts. Whatever the exact story in this particular case, the image of this child is the image of a war imposed on the Palestinian people through Israeli occupation.
 

You're full of shit

You have no proof. B'tselem and Amnesty International are known to have taken the Palestinian line to a considerable extent over impartiality.

Anyway, the intifada may be in its death throes now. Why constantly harp on what occurred more than 4 years ago, bummer. Get a fuckin' life.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

The violence of the Israeli government continues. It has not ended.

Yet the Zionist says, "Why constantly harp on what occurred more than 4 years ago, bummer. Get a fuckin' life."

While the Zionists want us to forget, the young people who died four years ago are still dead. To repeat a phrase: Never forget!

The following was sent after three socialist comrades were murdered by the Israeli government.


TEXT FROM PALESTINIAN STUDENTS(16th November, 2000):

[Note: we published another letter on this subject last week, but since then we have received a more detailed report together with a political statement form the palestinian Socialist Students - 21st November, 2000]

Dear comrades:

We are sorry, but we sent to you the mentioned document but here it is again :

1st comrade: ESSA ABED ABU SERI'A, Ramallah city.

Essa was killed before this Intifada, in another struggle, on 20/5/2000, he was shot in the head by a hunter bullet, the soldier who killed him said "Essa had to die, because he was a danger to the Israeli state" and when he was asked if he thought that he may have made a mistake, he replied "on the contrary, I'm proud of that work" and then he laughed in a rude way.

Essa was a member of our union and a member of the regional chief secretariat of the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). He was arrested in 1986 on the charge of belonging to the Revolutionary Communist Party and stayed in prison for 18 months, after that he was involved in the PFLP (a Marxist-Leninist movement) and again in 1988 he was arrested on the charge of taking part in Intifada work. This time he stayed in prison for 7 years . Throughout that period Essa was like a dynamo for our union in Ramallah city. He was released in 1995, then shot dead on 20/5/2000. (The source of the soldier's words are an Israeli newspaper, and another foreign one).

2nd comrade: ESMAT AL-SABER, Nablus city.
ESMAT was a father of 4 children, but he was really a great support for every single comrade of ours. In everything we did he supported us, helped us, doing his best in raising the Marxist word. ESMAT was shot in the chest, he died really bravely. I witnessed it myself: "ESMAT was with other comrades in the clashes between us and Israeli troops on a main street in the city. The first time ESMAT was shot by a tear gas bomb he became unconscious and was taken away to the mobile hospital to receive the necessary medical help. When he came round he returned to the scene of the clashes. This time an Israeli soldier noticed him again and shot him dead!

3rd comrade: DEIA'A, Jerusalem city
4th comrade: AHMED, Salem village.
Unfortunately we don't have much information about them, because of the difficult means of communications and the closure of all the roads. Many of our active comrades now are chased by Israeli troops on the highways between cities, so it's an adventure for one of us to go out from his own city! We have tried to transfer messages by fax and telephone, but even these aren't good in security matters!!

The latest analysis of our political committee states the following:
"- The farce of the Arab summit has proved to be a total failure. Nothing has changed in the most important Arab states that have good relations with Israel. Jordan and Egypt don't care about all the slaughter in Palestine, and the Nazi ambassador of Israel is still there.

- Again Arafat the puppet, has sent another invitation to his partner Barak for his silly peace. Arafat sent a videotape to Rabin's family on the occasion of Lea' Rabin's death, forgetting what Mr Rabin did during the days of the first Intifada: he ordered his soldiers to break the bones of the Palestinian youth. DO YOU KNOW HOW?? With stones! Every soldier was breaking a Palestinian's arm and then he would start to hit him in every single part of the body with the same stone. Thousands suffered long-term injuries from this brutality!!

- The Islamic summit, (which is also a farce) reveals also how religion is a cowardly system , and isn't suitable for the liberation struggle!!

- We repeat again: any talk here about Israel is meant about Israeli government, army and settlers. But for the foreigners (maybe we should say Israelis) who live in Palestinian lands, and respect the rights of the Palestinians, we can show them nothing but the same respect. And even when we talk of the USA these words are meant for the capitalist government of the USA. We haven't any bad feelings towards the American people or for any people. We aren't monsters as they would like to portray us. We are a people that has a dream of getting back all its stolen land."

Lastly, here are the latest figures on the Intifada:
285 have been shot dead, 90 are on their death-beds, of which 150 are under 18 (30% of them are under 12), 800 have been arrested, more than 9000 have been injured.
11,000 have been locked out of their schools (In Hebron , Ramallah , Hiwwara, Beitjala all schools are completely closed, while in Nablus, Tolkarm, Jenin, Jericho schools are partially functioning! The situation in the universities is a catastrophic one! But we are still here and we will be always!)

That's all for now, and we hope you could put this message on your web. We will try and send you photos, eye-witness accounts, analyses...

Keep in touch, it would be a tragedy for us if we lost touch. You are our last voice.. so keeeeep shouting!!

Comradely,
SY,
Palestinian Socialist Students - INTIFADA PALESTINE!!

16th November, 2000

*****
As for the Intifada today, just as four years ago, it will take more than a hand picked puppet put in power of the PA to stop the struggle for liberation. -Steven Argue
 

"young people who died four years ago are still dead"

And the big difference is, the Zionist casualties got murdered intentionally whereas the Palestinians you're bemoaning were either killed by their compatriots (like al-Dura) or killed in the course of warfare by Israeli military and police (either as combatants or collateral damage). Fair-minded people will never forget these facts!

But keep lying away for your personal gratification, racist asshole a.k.a. "Observation" a.k.a. Steven Argue.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

The Zionists who come to this site should learn to watch their language. This includes CT above.

I am not Steven Argue. You Zionists will not bait me into telling you who I am. As Lee Kaplan has pointed out, you are collecting names and turning them over to the police.

As for what happened to al-Dura, nobody knows who shot him, but nobody who has been watching this situation is going to take the Israeli government’s word on it. What is certain is that he was killed by the Israeli occupation.
 

Chris Hedges article has holes in story

Chris Hedges "Gaza Diary" printed in Harper's, in which he claims the IDF used silencers on their M16 rifles to shoot children soundlessly, asks the reader to believe the impossible.

There is no such thing as an M16 silencer.

Hedges mistakenly believed the specialized barrels of rifles used by the IDF to shoot rubber bullets were silencers.

What Hedges witnessed that day was the IDF shooting rock-throwing youth of Khan Younis in Gaza with rubber bullets. Then he segues to the hospital in Gaza where he says " Later in the hospital I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."

He reports the Israelis killed a boy that day. The dead boy was Ali Murad Abu Shaweesh, age 12, and his death by sniper fire was on June 17, 2001 in Khan Younis. What is the IDF point of view?

The ZOA* website claims that on June 17, 2001 the following occurred:

Sunday,
June 17, 2001: Cart filled with explosives detonated near Israeli soldiers in the area of the Dahaniyah airport, Gaza ... Fifty grenades
thrown at an Israeli Army outpost near the Israel-Egypt border ... Shooting attack on an Israeli Army outpost near the Israel-Egypt border ... Roadside bomb detonated as Israeli Army jeep descended Mount Ebal, near Shechem
(Nablus); two Israelis wounded ... Four bombs planted in Haifa ... Rock-throwing attack on an Israeli bus near Uhm al-Fahm ... Shooting attack
on the Israeli town of Neve Dekalim, Gaza ... Two mortar attacks aimed at Gush Katif, Gaza ... Grenades thrown at Israeli soldiers near Rafiah ... Shooting attack on the industrial zone of Neve Dekalim, Gaza .. Two shooting attacks on Israeli automobiles in the Samaria region ... Shooting attack on an Israeli automobile near Migdalim, in the Jordan Valley ... Rocks and firebombs thrown at the gates of the Israeli town of Neve Dekalim, Gaza.

*www.zoa.org/pressrel/20010625a.htm
(Yes, go nuts. Its the Zionist Organization of America)

With all these attacks by armed Palestinian groups, how can Hedges be sure those kids he saw in the hospital were hit by Israeli fire? How is he sure that any of them were shot intentionally? With all those bullets flying around a populated area, couldn't these kids have been caught in the crossfire? How is he sure that none of them were involved in the attacks that were recorded on that day?

No Hedges doesn't share any of this ambiguity with his reader. All the deaths are assumed to be from Israelis. This despite Hedges own admission that "Bands of Palestinians who often initiate the shooting, fire back."

When the Palestinians "initiate the shooting" why are the Israelis at fault?
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

All of the young people who are dying in this war are dying as a result of the crimes of the Zionist government; Just as the U.S. government is to blame for the American young people dying in Iraq.

In an earlier thread the racist Zionist so-called "Critical Thinkafier" says, "I must add that I haven't heard of Palestinians who would be insane enough to try to convert to Judaism as a means to obtain all kinds of benefits from the Israeli authorities. The rabbis in charge of conversions would detect any such insincerity on the part of such fakes and leave them outside the Jewish fold."

From a Zionist that says much.

Smash the theocracy! For a separation of religion and state with equal rights for all!

No to the billions the U.S. government sends the Zionist State every year!
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

Above I was responding to "Critical Thinkafier".

Now Becky Johnson wants us to believe that the Palestinians are all killing themselves while the poor peaceful Israeli troops who are only trying to defend all of the rights of the Palestinians under the Jewish state always get blamed.

She has no clue, or worse, she is truly sinister.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

And another thing about Becky Johnson,

What does refuting Chris Hedges and his article have to do with anything posted here?
 

For Steve Argue there is a Zionist behind every bush!

Steve, your ignoring facts and twisting my postings show a chilling resolve on your part to villify anyone who disagrees with you. And for a refutation to points I and others have made, you substitute personal attacks.

I refuted the Chris Hedges article because Observation used it as 'evidence' of the Israelis shooting Palestinian children. I was simply showing that once again, its a trumped up case against Israel where the facts don't matter.

We get it that you don't like 'Zionists' whoever THEY are. You call me a Zionist even though I haven't a clue what you are talking about. I am just like you. I am not Jewish, have never been to Israel, and I am a leftist.

I support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish State. You want Israel dismantled. Why all the name-calling? Why the personal villification unless ---you have to win so bad---it doesnt matter what the truth is or who gets hurt in the process.

This whole article and string are based on a lie. A phoney letter to the New York Times that can't be found in any issue of the New York Times. You should be apologizing for posting this garbage here. What's next, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
 

The Albert Einstein Letter Is Not A Fake

Becky, besides backing the massive U.S. military aid to Israel you also back the billions of dollars in military aid the United States sends the repressive government of Egypt. This makes you a big supporter of U.S. imperialist aims in the Near East.

Becky, you are not a leftist. You support the murderous and racist Zionist state. This makes you a Zionist. Your religion and your Scandinavian ancestry are irrelevant. Zionism is not a religion.

In addition, Becky Johnson, you backed the warmonger John Kerry for president and as a supposed homeless advocate you urged people to vote for anti-homeless candidates for Santa Cruz City Council under your useless slogan, "vote out the incumbents".

In response I asked, "Does this mean you suggest a vote for any four of the five: Norse, Brune, Coonerty, Fogel, or Madrigal? I think this is a big mistake. Why suggest people to vote for candidates that are going to be the same as the ones in power? I say vote Brune and Norse, dump the rest. For why check out this link:"

santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/12249/index.php

Yet you ignored my warnings and I heard you even suggest a vote for radical right-wing candidate Fogel who openly talked of a supposed over tolerance of homeless people in Santa Cruz by the government and spoke of driving the homeless out of town. Your claim was that at least he was honest.

Yes, and those holding power before Hitler were anti-Semites, but support for Hitler because he was “honest? would have made you a fool. Likewise with Fogel. A victory for Fogel would not have brought on the Fourth Reich, but it would have been a disaster.

On another subject

Sorry I missed "Observation's" source of Chris Hedges. Well it isn't difficult for a reporter untrained in weaponry to make a mistake. The facts of widespread terror and murder perpetrated by the Israeli government are well documented by Amnesty International, other human rights organizations, and by the Palestinian people themselves.

As For The Einstein Letter

As I stated earlier the Albert Einstein letter was on microfilm and has been transcribed for you to read by respected scholars and archeologists. Among those who worked on it were Jenny Lipow, Tom Condit, and B. Basgen who worked on Transcription and Markup. You may have met Tom Condit at my wedding.

As is explained in the post, "Laura Nader gave a copy of the microfilmed NYT to Anne Lipow in April. (Nader has been using it in her class at UC). The copy was illegible in parts and the first column was cut off; Laura's original was the same. Anne and UC Anthropology Librarian Suzanne Calpestri then tried to retrieve an electronic version of the letter. It appears nowhere in its entirety on the Internet, and is not in any NYT electronic archive accessible to UC Librarians (i.e., it doesn't exist). Suzanne made another copy from a different microfilm; it solved the mystery of the missing first column but this copy was also "dirty" in other areas. Neither copy was scannable using OCR,so I typed it in by hand exactly the way it appeared in the original, and have proofed it carefully. However, the spelling of some of the signatories was unclear in the microfilmed originals, so there may be a few errors in this rendition. It would be nice if someone were to annotate the list of signatories, so that those less-familiar names could be placed in context."

You, Becky Johnson, a promoter of all Zionist positions whether they are true or not, have presented no evidence that the work of these good people is fake.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

The quote above is from John Wheat Gibson who, as he states, also worked on the project.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

The above post supposedly by "Simon Jones" is probably just another attempt by the Zionists to discredit human rights activists. With its anti-Jewish hatred it is another form of hate speech and should be removed.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

From the Editorial Policy of the Santa Cruz IMC:

"The Santa Cruz IMC editorial working group, in order to maintain the integrity of the Newswire and the media commons it creates for our community of participants, may hide or delete posts to the Newswire at their discretion. For example, posts that contain blatantly racist, sexist, homophobic, or other hateful material intended to objectify, intimidate, or injure traditionally oppressed or under-represented groups or that link to websites that advocate the same, may be hidden or deleted.

Posts that contain commercial offerings, advertising, or links to products for sale will be hidden or deleted at the discretion of the editors.

SC-IMC volunteers reserve the right to alter or amend this editorial policy without prior notice. Any alterations or amendments to this policy will be indicated by a notice posted on our Newswire."

This is the policy listed here on this website. If you get a post removed it, it is because it is a duplicate post or it is a violation of the above policy.
 

From another thread

Becky's putrid apologist mind pukes forth: "There is no such thing as an M16 silencer."

By this ridiculous statement we discover that Becky is as deeply ignorant of guns as she is of so many other things. A silencer is an "after-market" item, i.e. is not original equipment but is retrofitted to the gun after delivery. Several manufacturers DO make silencers for M16s, as they do for virtually any gun in existence. Here's one right here:

www.impactguns.com/store/knights_m4qd_silencer.html

Here's a write-up on another in a gun-nut magazine (this one's clearly been around for a long time):

www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/hel556.pdf

Furthermore, if a hardcore gun-nut / professional killer / soldier can't get a manufactured silencer for a gun, they often just make one. This is an esteemed gun-nut tradition. Therefore Becky's assertion is patently idiotic. As for whether or not a given military unit has them, this could only be verified by observing them, which Chris Hedges actually did, while Becky only has torrid fantasies of being an Israeli platoon's sexual mascot. However, if corpses are coming in from border sites riddled with M-16 wounds (which are VERY distinctive) and yet nobody in the vicinity ever hears gunfire, silencers are a pretty safe conjecture.

Guns are LOUD. No really, Becky, trust me on this.

I could rip the rest of your inane maunderings apart, but really, what's the use? Your denial is of psychotic proportions. I think you could stand in the presence of IDF soldiers as they pureed a playground of toddlers with mounted 50-caliber machine guns. Then when they finished, you'd snivel "my God, that was so horrible, but I know you had to do it. I definitely heard one of them use an Arabic word -- they were all terrorists!"
 

Additional note

The second site, the "gun-nut article" is actually a historical overview of early U.S. DoD development of silencers for the M16, which dates back to not long after the weapon was first introduced in Vietnam. This is the ultimate coffin nail for Becky's nonsense assertion.
 

Re: what happened to al-Dura in 2000

First off, don't think you'll get me intimidated with admonitions to watch my language. It's not lost on me and others that you don't take issue with anti-Zionists befouling this site with their profane language like the severely misnomered "Truth Warrior".

Now to the point. As Becky Johnson has already shown on this site, a German TV crew conducted a thorough investigation into the case and concluded the shooter couldn't have been Israeli. Ergo, the boy must have been shot by Palestinians. When only two options are are even thinkable and one is ruled out conclusively, no sane person should doubt only one possibility remains. So spare us your pseudo-levelheaded bullshit and don't expect everyone to believe your puerile conclusions if you insist on scribbling them down.
 

Label someone a 'Zionist' and then condemn anything they say?

"....is not in any NYT electronic archive accessible to UC Librarians (i.e., it doesn't exist)."

Steve, how can you be so sure the letter is real? It's not in the NYT's archives. Just because someone has a microfilm of the column doesn't mean its not a copy of a fake.

Does anyone have a copy of the paper in which the column appeared?

Why doesn't the letter show up in the effects of any of the signers? Why isn't it in Einstein's papers? If I had a letter published in the NYT's along with Albert Einstein, I surely would save a copy.

Why hasn't the letter appeared before? Everything points to it being a fake. The people who transcribed it (and yes I know Tom Condit. He is not an expert on documents either) have no way of knowing if its real or a not.

And contrary to your claim that I have submitted "no evidence", the document expert I consulted has raised a half dozen concerns---none of which you have answered.

As for you insistance I am a 'Zionist', thats pretty thin. First, YOU define what a Zionist is. Then YOU get to decide WHO is a Zionist, even if they say they are not. To me, it sounds like you like to put labels on people and then use that label to discount what they say.

Also, your characterization of Israel as a "murderous and racist state" is untrue. Israel does not murder people and its a pluralistic state reflecting the diversity of its citizens. Your condemnation of Israel revolves around your ire that they would protect themselves militarily from military attacks. It's like confusing a fireman with an arsonist because they are both found around fires!


Yes, I enthusiastically supported John Kerry for president. That is because I was so moved by his work 30 years ago in speaking out against the War in Vietnam despite coming back as a decorated veteran. That took courage, integrity, and guts. Who did you vote for?
Leonard Peltier?

As for the City Council race, I thought it a very poor field of candidates. I'm glad Kennedy and Primack are gone. Fogel early on made some promising statements, but he went on to show that he is an anti-homeless bigot after all. I never supported him. The only candidate (other than Norse or Brune) I supported was Tony Madrigal because of his position on the Sleeping Ban and because of his down-with-the-folks style.

But I don't expect great things from him.

As for USA military aid to Egypt, it is a innacurate to say I promote it. I have great concerns how Egypt is spending this money. And why hasn't Egypt stopped the tunnel building on the Gaza border?

YOU are the one who is always haranguing about cutting aid to Israel. I merely pointed out (and you have ignored completely) that aid to Israel is part of a peace treaty with Egypt brokered by Pres. Jimmy Carter. I have asked YOU if you advocate the USA unilaterally withdrawing from that peace treaty, or if you have any concerns about how Egypt is spending its billions.

That's quite a stretch to say that I am a "big supporter" of the military aid to Egypt.
 

More discussion on Hedges article

Chris Hedges said "There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital I will see see the destruction." Hedges makes no attempt to get the IDF point of view, but instead, relies soley on Palestinian sources.

What Hedges SAW was the IDF shooting the rock-throwing youths with rubber bullets. The kids he saw in the hospital could have been injured in any of a number of ways. Look at the report I published above which shows how many Palestinian attacks on the IDF were going on that day in Gaza. A kid could easily have been hit in the crossfire or even as a combatant themselves.

Hedges does NOT say he saw a child killed or even badly injured in front of him. He implies it. He leads his readers to believe that the IDF is out there shooting kids with M16's. They don't.

Barbara Lubin and the UN spokesman say that the IDF is using sharpshooters to assassinate elementary school students. They aren't and they don't.

By contrast, Hamas rocket attacks kill people at random, whether they are children, nurses, teachers, or elderly. I don't hear any of you condemning these attacks. Heck, you are PROMOTING them! Against civilians too! Aren't you concerned that Hamas might destroy the peace process thats going on right now, since Arafat, the roadblock to peace is dead?

BTW the CURRENT IDF policy when confronted with rock-throwing youths is to set off a concussion grenade. They don't even use the rubber bullets anymore. I learned this from a Lt. Colonel in the IDF.
 

Einstein, Zionism and Israel: Setting the Record Straight

Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq
Associate Professor of Economics and Finance
Upper Iowa University

I also personally endeavored to set the Times' record straight on one rather important matter--the exploitation of Dr. Albert Einstein by the Zionist movement. When the greatest scientist of our age died on April 18, 1956, at the age of seventy-six, the Times in the course of its eulogy referred to "Israel, whose establishment as a state he had championed." This "kidnapping" of Einstein for Israel was one of the most extraordinary coups ever perpetrated by any political group anywhere, but with the help of the omnipotent Times anything is possible. The great mathematician had vigorously opposed the creation of the State of Israel, but a myth to the contrary has been widely spawned by the media, and was repeated sixteen years later.

In late March 1972 the New York Times published a series of articles dealing with the life and thought of Albert Einstein as allegedly revealed in the collection of his manuscripts, letters, and other papers, which were to be published by his estate. The third of the series included on the front page a three-column photograph of Einstein with Israeli Premier David Ben-Gurion, and the caption read: "Einstein papers tell of scientist's efforts toward the creation of Israel." The article further referred "to his long efforts in behalf of the creation of a Jewish national state and of his sad refusal" to accept the Presidency upon the death of Chaim Weizmann.

Einstein, despite the Time's incessant recitals to the contrary, clearly opposed the creation of the State of Israel. A clear understanding of the position taken on Palestine by the great mathematician, himself a refugee from Nazi Germany, will not only set the record straight and correct journalistic inaccuracies, but is most relevant to the continuing quest for a just peace in the Middle East.

In his testimony in January 1946 before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, and in answer to the specific question whether refugee settlement in Palestine demanded a Jewish state, Einstein stated: "The State idea is not according to my heart. I cannot understand why it is needed. It is connected with narrow-mindedness and economic obstacles. I believe that it is bad. I have always been against it. He went further to deride the concept of a Jewish commonwealth as an "imitation of Europe, the end of which was brought about by nationalism."

Then, in 1952, in a message to a "Children to Palestine" dinner, Einstein spoke of the necessity of curbing "a kind of nationalism which has arisen in Israel if only to permit a friendly and fruitful co-existence with the Arabs." When this portion of the Einstein message was censored in the organization's press release so as to impart the impression of all-out support Israel, I went to Princeton to seek the Professor's views on the incident. Einstein then told me that he had never been a Zionist and had never favored the creation of the State of Israel.

It was then that he also told me of a significant conversation with Weizman. Einstein had asked him: "What of the Arabs if Palestine were given were given to the Jews?" And Weizman replied: "What Arabs? They are hardly of any consequence."

Einstein referred me to his book Out of My Later Years, published in 1950, in which he had expanded on his philosophy: "I should much rather see a reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain."45

In subsequent years he vigorously supported many Israeli cultural activities, in particular the Hebrew University and the Weizman Institute, to which he was deeply dedicated. According to biographer Dr. Philip Frank, the professor had a "good hearted weakness" and was hesitant to rebuke Zionists for their frequent manipulations of his views and unauthorized use of his name in order to enhance their prestige and fill their political Zionism helped confuse the American press.

In his modest manner, he publicly declined the Israeli Presidency, as Weizmann's successor, on the given grounds that he was not qualified in the area of human relationships. But, in fact, that acceptance of high office in nationalist Israel was hardly in keeping with the basic philosophy of this great humanist and universalist.

Attempts to tie the renowned scientist to political Zionism continued. First there were the welter of public tributes from Israeli and Zionist leaders, published at the time of his death. And two weeks later in a story prominently published by the Times, the Israeli Consul in New York claimed that Einstein had been preparing a laudatory speech for nationwide television in commemoration of the seventh anniversary of Israel. Not only was the evidence of Einstein's Zionist intent scarcely substantiated, but it was in direct conflict with the professor's last statement about the Israeli state, given in an interview with Dorothy Schiff, pro-Israel publisher of the New York Post. She quoted him as saying: "We had great hopes for Israel at first. We thought that it might be better than other nations, but it is no better."46

In the third of its articles on Einstein, the Times nevertheless repeated the myth of his support of the creation of Israel without indicating any new proof. Were the good professor alive today, there is every reason to believe that he would be in the forefront of those condemning the deprivation of the rights of the Palestinian Arabs. As far back as January 28, 1930, Einstein had warned in the Palestinian newspaper Falastin that "oppressive nationalism must be conquered" and that he could "see a future for Palestine only on the basis of peaceful cooperation between the two peoples who are at home in the country . . . come together they must in spite of all." And from the outset he had fully supported the idea of Dr. Judah Magnes, President of Hebrew University, of an Arab-Jewish binational state. In a letter to the Times with Rabbi Leo Baeck of Germany, he wrote: "Besides the fact that they [Magnes and his followers] speak for a much wider circle of inarticulate people, they speak in the name of principles which have been the most significant contribution of the Jewish people to humanity." Such statements are hardly consonant with the Times' allegation of the scientist's support of the creation of a Zionist state.

The Times revival of this Einstein mythology led me to call Op-Ed page editor Harrison E. Salisbury and suggest that it would be appropriate for him to run a piece presenting the true views of the learned scientist on this subject. Although every type of opinion has been presented on this important page. Salisbury refused to commission such an article, as is customarily done. He stated he would be happy to look at the finished product if it were written on speculation.

Even this I did, and here is his letter rejecting the article, the substance of which has been set forth in the above pages:

"I'm sorry to say that we decided against your article concerning Professor Einstein. As I told you when we discussed this matter on the telephone, I was dubious about the idea of elaborating on this particular aspect of Dr. Einstein's career, and I confess on reading the article my feeling was strengthened. You may feel that I overstate the case, but it would seem to the casual reader like myself that Dr. Einstein's views, as one might expect, underwent a series of changes over the years and the picture does not come out so strongly in your article as to compel its publication."

How possibly could any subsequent Einstein "change over the years" -- and his basic attitude toward political Zionism never altered on iota--affect what he did or did not do about the creation of Israel, an act which took place in 1948? The cultural Zionism in which Einstein believed was a far cry from Jewish nationalism embodied in the Zionist State of Israel, which he decried to his very death in 1956. [pp. 340-343]

globalwebpost.com/farooqm/writings/other/einstein.htm
 

John F. Kennedy Also Came Out Against Butcher Begin

Congressman John F. Kennedy from Massachusetts wired the Chairman of the Committee (that organized the reception for Menachem Begin), author Louis Bromfield: "Belatedly and for the record I wish to withdraw my name from the reception committee for Menachem Begin, former Irgun Commander. When accepting your invitation, I was ignorant of the true nature of his activities, and I wish to be disassociated from them completely."

The office of Congressman Joe Hendricks of Florida revealed that the congressman had been out of town and thus his name "mistakenly" had been given to the Begin Committee. Several other Congressmen could not recall later whether they, or their office, had ever authorized the use of their names. Dr. Harry C. Byrd, President of the University of Maryland, said: "Some people I know asked me if they could use my name as a member of the reception committee and I said they could. I didn't know who he was. I am not going to New York." And so it went--after the damage had been done.

globalwebpost.com/farooqm/writings/other/einstein.htm
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

Thanks for confirming my view that Albert Einstien was not a supporter of the Zionist State of Israel. Having carefully read some of his views on philosophy and politics, it simply wasn't consistent with his general outlook towards all humanity. I manage a discussion web site at; groups.msn.com/WorldSocialismNow please visit. Regards Bill
 

And even MORE on Chris Hedges article

FOOD FOR THOUGHT FOUND ON THE WEB

eyl09-01-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Philip


In fact, Christopher Hedges, a highly respected member of the news media, made exactly this claim in Harper's Magazine. You might try to do just the slightest bit of research before you make a goofball claim like you did.

I've read Hedges' report several times. There are several problems with it, which I've never seen anyone explain (even, for some reason, when I pointed them out :confused: ). In order of the article:

1) Hedges writes "They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me"

Since he also says he didn't hear any shots, I can only conclude he gathered his data by hearsay, though he doesn't say so.

2) Hedges writes

"There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers"

(emphasis mine)

This would require Israel to violate not only the laws of war, but the laws of physics as well.
The standard issue rifles in IDF service are variants of the M16 and Galil. An M16 or Galil has a muzzle velocity of 1000 mps - almost exactly three times the speed of sound. The shorter variants have slightly lower muzzle velocities, but the bullets are still supersonic. Therefore, once the bullet leaves the rifle, the noise you hear is the sound of the bullet moving through the air. While it is possible to mount a silencer on an assault rifle, these can mask only the sound (and sometimes the flash) as the bullet leaves the rifle (in order to protect the shooter from hearing damage and momentary blindness, as well as masking his location) but they do nothing to prevent the bullet from making noise afterwards. They can't slow the bullet to subsonic speed - that would completely throw off accuracy, and I suspect it would ruin the silencer. I should also note that, to the best of my knowledge, silencers are not standard issue in normal units (they might be present in special units, but those wouldn't be doing patrols).

3) Hedges writes "This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen"

According to B'Tselem's website (www.btselem.org), there was indeed a boy killed that day in the area, though the age and family name are different. More importantly, though, the Palestinian Red Crescent's website has a tally of Palestinian dead and wounded, listed by day (though I didn't find a breakdown by location). According to that list, on the day in question, there was one fatality and no injured throughout Gaza and the West Bank, directly contradicting Hedges testimony.
 

Setting Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq Staright

Allow me to correct Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq.
Albert Einstein was an ardent Zionist. In recent years the Arab media has tried to co-opt Einstein as one of their own. In reality, although a pacivistin his early years he quickly realized that Jews were murdered precisely because of their pacivity.[pp. 250-253]

A tale of Einstein:

If his theories were proven correct, France would have proclaimed him a man of the World.
Germany would have claimed him as a German.
Howver, if his theories were proven incorrect, France would have called him a German, and the Germans would have called him a Jew.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

Becky Johnson, there are so many inaccuracies, lies, and false allegations in what you have posted in another attempt to refute me that I will not bother responding to them except in saying I stick to every word I have said and if someone worth talking to (i.e. actually interested in the facts) wants something clarified I will respond.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

Steve don't worry about Becky people can see through her crap. You have better things to do.
 

A rebuttal to the "technical" bullshit emitted by Becky's ringer

The sound a bullet makes as it rips through air at mach 3 is negligible compared to that of the EXPLOSION that bursts from the muzzle as the bullet exits. That explosion is what a silencer muffles, and this really does make a huge difference; it diminishes its acoustic effect from a loud "crack" (an M16's report) to a soft "pop" or "poof." As for the noise made by the bullet itself, this is the much quieter "whizzing bullet" sound every caterwauling zionist knows by heart because it was played back repeatedly during their all-time favorite movie, Schindler's List (in which it was usually amplified for dramatic effect).

This bullshit from "Philip" is a good example of what Becky ALWAYS does in her "refutations" of IDF murder scenarios: goes and digs up some canned knowledgeable-sounding bullshit already cooked up by another zionist screamer, and presents this as irrefutable, which is how she regards it. In all fairness to Becky, I think she can't spot the fallacies invariably loaded into these because she's just intellectually quite feeble.
 

Albert Einsteins own words -- 1921

ALBERT EINSTEIN'S SPEECH ON ZIONISM

Excerpts from: Einstein the Zionist - About Zionism: Speeches and Lectures by Professor Albert Einstein. Translated and Edited With an Introduction by Leon Simon. London, The Soncino Press, 1930.


I have noticed this sort of thing in myself. Until two years ago I lived in Switzerland, and during my stay there I did not realise my Judaism. There was nothingl that callned forth my Jewish sentimcnts in me. When I moved to Berlin all that changed. There I realised the

{p. 28} difficulties with which many young Jews were confronted. I saw how, amid anti-Semitic surroundings, systematic study, and with it the road to a safe existence, was made impossible for them. This refers specially to the Eastern-born Jews in Germany, who were continually exposed to provocation. I do not believe that their number is large in Germany as a whole. Only in Berlin are they at alln numerous. Nevertheless, their presence has become a public question. At meetings and conferences and in the press there is a movement for disposing of them quickly or interning them. Housing difficulties and the economic dcpression are used as arguments for these harsh measures. Facts are deliberately exaggerated in order to influence public opinion. These Eastern born Jews are made the scapegoat of all the ills of present day German political life and all the after-effects of the war.

Incitement against these unfortunate fugitives, who have only just saved themselves from the helln which Eastern Europe means for them to day, has become an effective political weapon, employed with success by every demagogue. When the Government contemplated the expulsion of these Jews, I sood up for them, and pointed out in the Berliner Tageblat the inhumanity and the folly of such a measure. Together with some colleagues, Jews

{p. 29} and non-Jews, I started University courses for these Eastern-born Jews, and I must add that in this matter we enjoyed official recognition and considerable assistance from the Ministry of Education.

These and similar happenings have awakened in me the Jewish national sentiment. I am a national Jew in the sense that I demand the preservation of the Jewish nation ality as of every other. I look upon Jewish nationality as a fact, and I think that every Jew ought to come to definite conclusions on Jewish questions on the basis of this fact. I regard the growth of Jewish self-assertion as being in the interests of non-Jews as well as of Jews. That was the main motive of my joining the Zionist movement. For me Zionism is not merely a question of colonisation. The Jewish nation is a living thing, and the sentiment of Jewish nationalism must be developed both in Palesine and everywhere else. To deny the Jew's nationality in the Diaspora is, indeed, deplorable. If one adopts the point of view of confining Jewish ethnic nationalism to Palestine, then to all intents and purposes one denies the existence of a Jewish people. In that case one should have the courage to carry througn assimilation as quickly and as completely as possible.

We live in a time of intense and perhaps exaggerated

{p. 30} nationalism. But my Zionism does not exclude cosmopolitan views. I believe in the atuality of Jewish nationality, and I believe that every Jew has duties towards his co-religionists. The meaning of Zionism is thus many sided. To Jews who despair in the Ukrainian hell or in Poland it opens out hopes of a more human existence. Through the return of Jews to Palestine, and so to a normal and healthy economic life, Zionism involves a creative fusion, which should enrich mankind at large. But the main point is that Zionism must tend to enhance the dignity and self respect of the Jews in the Diaspora. I have always been annoyed by the undignified assimilationist cravings and strivings which I have observed in so many of my friends.

Through the establishment of a Jewish Commonwealth in Paletine, the Jewish people will again be in a position to bring its creative abilities into full play without hindrance. Through the Jewish University and similar institutions the Jewish people will not only help forward its own national renaissance, but will enrich its moral culture and knowledge, and will once again, as it was centuries ago, be guided into better ways of life than those which are inevitably imposed on it in present conditions.

{p. 31} The rebuilding of Palesine is for us Jews not a mere matter of charity or emigration: it is a problem of paramount importance for the Jewish people. Palestine is first and foremost not a refuge for East European Jews, but the incarnation of a reawakening sense of national solidarity. But is it opportune to revive and to strengthen this sense of solidarity? To that question I must reply with an unqualified affirmative, not only because that answer expresses my instintive feelingt but also, I believe, on rational grounds. Let us glance at the history of the Jews in Germany during the last century or so. A hundred years ago our ancesors, with very few exceptions, still lived in the Ghetto. They were poor, and were separated from the Gentiles by a barrier of religious traditions, sec,ular forms of life and legal restrictions. In their spiritual development they were confined to their own literature, and were influenced but faintly by the immense impetus which the Renaissance had given to the intenetual life of Europe. But in one recspect these men, humbly placed and scantly regarded as they were, had a distinct advantage over us. Each one of them was bound by every

{p. 32} fibre of his being to a community which embraced his whole existence, of which he felt himself a full member, and which made on him no demand that ran counter to his natural mode of thought. Our ancestors of those days were rather cramped both materially and spirituany, but as a social organism they were in an enviable state of psychological equilibrium. Then came emancipation. It opened undreamt-of vistas of progress. Individual Jews rapidly became at home in the higher strata of economic and social life. They eagerly absorbed the brilliant achievements of Western art and science. They threw themselves with ardour into these developments, and themselves made contributions of permanent value. In the process they adopted the ways of life of the non-Jewish world, became increasingly estranged from their own religious and social tradition, acquired non-Jewish habits, customs and modes of thought. It seemed as though they were going to be completely dissolved in the surrounding peoples, so much more numerous than themselves, so superior in their political and cultural organisation, and that in a few generations no visible trace of them would remain. The complete disappearance of the Jews in Central and Wesern Europe seemed inevitable. But things turned out differently. Nations with racial differences appear

{p. 33} to have intincts which work against their fusion. The assimilation of the Jews to the European nations among whom they lived, in language, in customs, and to some extent even in the forms of religious organisation, could not eradicate the feeling of a lack of kinship between them and those among whom they lived. In the last resort, this instinctive feeling of lack of kinship is referable to the law of the conservation of energy. For this reason it cannot be eradicated by any amount of well-meant pressure. Nationalities do not want to be fused: they want to go each its own way. A state of peace can be brought about only if they mutually tolerate and respect one another. {But is not the Jewish religion at war with all other cultures?} This demands above an things that we Jews become once more conscious of our nationality, and regain the self respect which is neeessary to our national existence. We must learn once more to avow our ancestry and our history; we must once more take upon ourselves, as a nation, cultural tasks of a kind calculated to strengthen our feeling of solidarity. It is not sufficient for us to take part as individuals in the cultural work of mankind: we must also set our hands to some work which can serve the ends of our corporate national existence. In this way and in this way only can the Jewish people regain its health.

{p. 34} It is from this point of view that I look upon the Zionist movement. History has to-day allotted us the task of contributing actively to the economic and cultural re-construction of Palestine. Inspired men of genius and vision have laid the foundations of our work, to which many of the best among us are prepared to devote their whole lives. It were well if all of us felt the full significance of the work and contributed each his utmost to its success.

It was in America that I first discovered the Jewish people. I have seen any number of Jews, but the Jewish people I had never met either in Berlin or elsewhere in Germany. This Jewish people, which I found in America, came from Russia, Poland and Easern Europe generally. These men and women still retain a healthy national feeling; it has not yet been destroyed by the process of atomisation and dispersion. I found these people extraordinarily ready for self-sacrifice and pratically creative. They have, for instance, managed in a short time to secure the future of the projected University in Jerusalem, at any rate so far as the Medical Faculty is concerned. I also found that it was mostly the middle classes and the ordinary folk, and not those enjoying a high social postion or any natural advantages, who had most conspicuously

{p. 35} preserved the healthy feeling of belonging together and the willingness to make sacrifices. The impression that I gained there is that if we really succeed in establishing a nucleus of the Jewish people in Palesine, we shall once more have a spiritual centre, notwithstanding that the great majority of us are scattered over the world, and the feeling of isolation will disappear. That is the great redeeming effect which I anticipate from the rebuilding of Palestine. (1921)
 

So of course Einstein COULDN'T POSSIBLY have changed his thinking...

...one whit over the ensuing 27 years as a result of the violent extremism of groups like Haganah, Irgun, and Stern Gang. Oh, no way -- that's just impossible. Nobody ever changes their mind about anything. Well, nobody in Becky's circle of friends, anyway.
 

Speaking of refutations

Here's a post from a while back:

by Supporter of Palestine Statehood
dbwall (nospam) earthlink.net
27 Dec 2004

I am Jewish and lived in Occupied Palestine for 15 years, 1981 - 1997, and saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears the genocidal destruction of Palestinian life throughout all of Palestine (this includes the area of 1948 Occupied Palestine, better known as Israel). I was also in West Bank and Gaza Strip in 2002. I saw demolished homes and destruction of private businesses and food crops in Ramallah, Beit Sahour, Beit Jalla, Bethlehem, and Gaza Strip. It was extremely clear that the Israeli soldiers had done their utmost to cause as much destruction to personal possessions of Palestinians as they could. In downtown Ramallah all I saw was destruction.

In Gaza I saw agricultural fields totally destroyed, not only the crops were ruined, food for the people, but also irrigation pipes cut up by the bulldozers. What is the purpose of destroying food? Can a crop of eggplant cause harm to anyone? Can plastic irrigation pipes in Gaza Strip cause any harm to anyone living in Tel-Aviv?

I have seen the aftermath of Israeli soldiers shooting at apartment buildings throughout the Gaza Strp. The outside of the houses look like swiss cheese there are so many holes in them. Many of the apartment houses, where children, women and men civilians live, have been so badly shot up that they barely stand and are too dangerous to live in, this is besides the thousands of homes that have been demolished by specially built bulldozers made by Caterpillar for the Israeli Army, for decades.

I have heard Zionist Israelis express their outright hatred of Palestinians, and all Arabs. I have seen them on Israeli television shouting out in the streets "Death to the Arabs". Inciting people to actually go out and commit murder.

Israelis are taught to fear and hate all Arabs from the time they are born. I know this because I lived in the Tel-Aviv area and I saw and heard their racism. When I would tell Jewish Israelis that I was going to a Palestinian village in Israel, they would always ask me "Aren't you afraid?" I would ask them, afraid of what? I was always made to feel very welcome in the homes of Palestinians wherever I went, whether inside the 1948 borders, better known as Israel, or in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It was always known by the Palestinians I visited that I am Jewish and had Israeli citizenship.

I have been to Gaza Strip and to Jenin many times and a few times to Nablus, my life was NEVER in danger, I was never afraid, at least not of the Palestinians. My life was in danger a few times by Israeli soldiers. There were times when I feared I was going to be shot by a trigger-happy Israeli soldier.

My experience of Palestinians I have met is that they are a peaceful people. They love their children, they love their families, they are extremely generous and will offer you their last food to welcome you into their homes. Despite living under a very horrendous and genocidal Israeli occupation for more than 50 years, they are not a hateful nor bitter people. They make very clear distinctions between Jews and Zionists and Israeli soldiers and civilians.

During my stay in Occupied Palestine (all of Israel is Occupied Palestine) it became very clear to me that the Israeli Occupation Forces, the Israeli settlers and the Israeli government commit War Crimes, crimes against Peace and crimes against Humanity on a daily basis.

I totally support Palestinian Statehood and the Right to Return to every Palestinian.

I had my own experience with Lee Kaplan and Becky Johnson, both are extremely uninformed as to the truth about Palestine and Palestinians.
 

Letter is a hoax, and an irrelevant one

Lee Kaplan says the letter is a hoax but it's irrelevant anyway. Israel does exist and 5.5 million Jews live in Israel now. They are not going to submit to Arab Islamic domination. If someone argued against the formation of a Jewish state in Palestine back in 1948, what would that matter now?

The Quartet keeps insisting the solution lies in there being two states side by side, an Arab state and a Jewish state. But ill-informed people in Santa Cruz keep arguing for dismantling of the Jewish State and replacing it with some pie-in-the-sky state where everyone lives together happily ever after. The Israelis are never going to go for that with a people who are so intent on their own demise.

It's not reasonable and it's not going to happen. You have to ask yourself, considering these circumstances, what do you want to happen next?
 

Well why didn't you say so?

If LEE KAPLAN says it, it MUST be true!! ROTFL
 

You don't have to be Einstein...

"ill-informed people in Santa Cruz keep arguing for dismantling of the Jewish State ... It's not reasonable and it's not going to happen."

If that's really a foregone conclusion, how is it Becky and Lee and about 200,000 other whack-jobs have been able to make full-time careers of keeping everyone "persuaded." Contrary to what you're saying, a propaganda war this massive can only mean there is great insecurity about this. The will of Israelis is almost beside the point. If the United States were to suddenly withdraw all support, Israel's long-term existence would be in doubt immediately. Is there some danger of the American people swinging this way? If not, why do you keep hammering us with your multi-billion-dollar propaganda campaign?
 

Lee Kaplan says the letter is a hoax but it's irrelevant anyway

Who is Lee KKKaplan?
Why should anyone care what
DAFKA says?

Albert Einstein has much more credibility than those proven haters.
 

And some call me a racist!

JA calls me a racist. But one person was so moved by JA's crude interruptions of a pro-Israel speaker up at Berkeley a while back he wrote in a letter complaining to the newspaper. In it he said that JA repeatedly shouted “You’re all a bunch of filthy Jewish liars.?

JA then approached the paper to say he had said no such thing. The paper printed a retraction of sorts. But then the scheduled speaker, whose speech JA was so intent on interrupting, wrote in to say that he repeatedly heard the man saying "“You’re all a bunch of filthy Jewish liars,? As he spoke from the podium.

Of course JA says I'm a racist because I support Israel. If that passes the standard for proving racism, then the word has lost any real meaning.

I don't know about you, but JA's words sound like hate speech to me.
 

Attack of the killer ideologues

Becky blats "I don't know about you, but JA's words sound like hate speech to me."

By "JA's words" I suppose you mean “You’re all a bunch of filthy Jewish liars.?

Can you give me some miraculous unforeseen reason as to why I should take your word for this? For your parable of corroborating accusations to be convincing, you would need to establish that 1) they weren't made by the same party, and 2) the unrelated parties were both honest, i.e. that this is not merely coordinated character assassination. You have done neither. From all that I've seen of scheming zionist extremists like you and your friends -- and I've seen much -- my skepticism on the second matter is extreme. Before you enlighten us with your "proofs," bear in mind that neither I nor anyone with a particle of sense trusts you in the least.
 

The Nazoid Truth Warper's repugnant racism chimed in

"As for the noise made by the bullet itself, this is the much quieter "whizzing bullet" sound every caterwauling zionist knows by heart because it was played back repeatedly during their all-time favorite movie, Schindler's List (in which it was usually amplified for dramatic effect)."

To those who've doubted whether the nauseating and depraved Truth Warper is a deranged antisemite, reread that excerpt attentively. He/she's using "Zionist" as codeword for Jews.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

sabra_and_shatila.jpg
Speaking of racist, Becky Johnson defends the mass murder of 3,000 innocents at Sabra and Shatila saying, “They were not innocent Palestinians.?

Radical Zionist and Dafka (Hebrew for “in your face?) member Becky Johnson wrote:

Steve, so you have to go all the way back to 1982 to find a massacre to pin on the Israelis. And you have to fudge the facts to make even THAT work. They were not "innocent Palestinians" since a day or two before a group of them went into a Lebanese camp and murdered 65 men, women, and children. When the Lebanese Phalanx came up the road to the camp where the murderers were hiding, Ariel Sharon let them through. It was the Lebanese army that killed the Palestinians. Not a single IDF soldier killed anyone. Sharon was later disciplined by his own govt. who ruled that he should have known what the Lebanese were about to do and he should have tried to stop them.



********************
Steven Argue responds on responds On Sabra and Shatila

Becky Johnson seems to think that the Sabra and Shatila massacre is not worth discussing because 1982 is supposedly ancient history. 1982 is hardly beyond the statute of limitations for crimes against humanity. I’m sure you don’t have the same attitude towards Nazi butchers of the Third Reich. While I could, and have, written about the most recent crimes of the Israeli government in Jenin and elsewhere, the Sabra and Shatila massacre is still worth talking about since the current crimes are only a continuation of the past. Likewise, Sharon’s guilt in the Sabra Shatila massacre is worth mentioning.

Becky Johnson shows here extreme ignorance by claiming that this massacre was carried out by the Lebanese government. The Lebanese government had nothing to do with it. The massacre was carried out both by the Israeli military under the command of Sharon and by Israel's allies in Lebanon, the Christian Phalangists.

With the testimony Mrs. Sersawi in the Belgium appeals court on the Israeli government’s war crimes, which I’ve posted twice, I've provided Becky Johnson with clear evidence of the involvement of both the Israeli government and Lebanese Christian Phalangists in this mass murder of unarmed civilians, many that had been slaughtered after being taken prisoner by Israel. Among the dead was Mrs. Sersawi’s husband. Yet you Becky have chosen to ignore this evidence I have provided you to absurdly claim that this mass murder was only the killing of combatants and that it was the work of the Lebanese government.

I will post Mrs. Sersawi’s testimony here once again at the end of this writing.

Prior to the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon both Ariel Sharon and Bashir Gemayel had declared that they would create a panic amongst Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon that would reduce the numbers living there from 500,000 to 50,000. The Sabra and Shatila massacre was part of this stated goal of ethnic cleansing.

Ha’aretz reported on September 26, 1982: “A long-term objective aimed at the expulsion of the whole Palestinian population of Lebanon beginning with Beirut. The purpose was to create a panic to convince [sic] all the Palestinians of Lebanon that they were no longer safe in that country.?

As such the people of Sabra and Shatila facing the Zionist slaughter of innocents, were to meet the same fate as the Palestinian towns of Dueima, Kibya, Kfar Qasim, and Deir Yassin from 1947 to 1950.

As Time Magazine admitted on October 4th, 1982, “On several occasions Gemayel told Israeli officials he would raze the camps and flatten them into tennis courts. This fits in with Israeli thinking. The Christian militia forces that were known to have gone into the camps were trained by the Israelis.?

Major Saqr of the Phalangist Militia bragged after the massacre, “The only way you will find out how many Palestinians we killed is if they ever build a subway under Beirut ... A good massacre or two will drive the Palestinians out of Beirut and Lebanon once and for all.? (Jonathan Randal of the Washington Post).

Yet the massacre was not just carried out by these murderous Phalangist militia trained and allied with Israel, Israeli forces were also directly involved.

On February 14, 1983 Der Spiegel carried an interview with one of the killers at Sabra and Shatila, who described direct Israeli participation along side his own. The article, entitled “Each of You Is An Avenger?, is a first person account of crimes against humanity:

“We met in the Schahrur wadi, in the valley of the nightingales Southeast of Beirut. It was Wednesday, the fifteenth of September ... We were approximately three hundred men from East Beirut, South Lebanon and the Akkar Mountains in the north ... I belonged to the Tiger Militia of ex-President Camile Chamoun.

“Phalange officers summoned us and brought us to the meeting place. They told us that they needed us for a “special action? ... “You are the agents of good,? the officers told us repeatedly. “Each of you is an avenger.? ...

“Then a good dozen Israelis in green uniforms without indication of rank came along. They had playing cards with them and spoke Arabic well, except that like all Jews they pronounced the hard “h? as “ch.? They were talking about the Palestinian camps Sabra and Shatila ... it was clear to us what we were to do, and we were looking forward to it.

“We had to swear an oath never to divulge anything about our action. At about 10 p.m. we climbed into an American army truck that the Israelis had given over to us. We parked the vehicle near the airport tower. There, immediately next to the Israeli positions, several such trucks were already parked.

“Some Israelis in Phalange uniforms were with the Party. “The Israeli friends who accompany you,? our officers told us “... will make your work easier.? They directed us not to make use of our firearms, if at all possible. “Everything must proceed noiselessly.? ... We saw other comrades. They had to do their work with bayonets and knives. Bloody corpses were lying in the alleys. The half-asleep women and children who cried out for help put our whole plan in danger, alarming the entire camp.

“Now I saw once again the Israelis who had been at our secret meeting. One signaled us to move back to areas of the camp entrance. The Israelis opened up with all their guns. The Israelis helped us with floodlights.

“There were shocking scenes that showed what the Palestinians were good for. A few, including women, had taken shelter in a small alley, behind some donkeys. Unfortunately we had to shoot down these poor animals to finish off the Palestinians behind them. It got to me when the animals cried out in pain. It was gruesome.

“A comrade entered a house full of women and children. The Palestinians screamed and threw their gas stoves on the ground. We sent the hard-hearted rabble to hell.

“At about four in the morning my squad went back to the truck. When there was morning light we went back into the camp. We went past bodies, stumbled over bodies, shot and stabbed all eyewitnesses. Killing others was easy once you have done it a few times.

“Now came the Israeli Army bulldozers. “Plow everything under the ground. Don’t let any witnesses stay alive.? But despite our efforts, the area was still teeming with people. They ran about and caused awful confusion. The order to “plow them under? demanded too much.

“It became clear that the pretty plan had failed. Thousands had escaped us. Far too many Palestinians are still alive. Everywhere now people are talking about a massacre and feeling sorry for the Palestinians. Who appreciates the hardships that we took upon ourselves ... Just think. I fought for twenty-four hours in Shatila without food or drink.?

Many of the mass graves were never opened, but over 3,000 people were murdered at Sabra and Shatila.

In addition to the scenes described above, Palestinians were also rounded up and systematically slaughtered in the thousands by Israeli troops in a Lebanese stadium.

As survivor Mrs. Sersawi testified in a Belgium appeals court on the Israeli governments war crimes, "The Lebanese forces militia [Phalangists] had taken us from our homes and marched us up to the entrance of the camp where a large hole had been dug in the earth. The men were told to get into it. Then the militiamen shot a Palestinian. The women and children climbed over bodies to get to this spot, but we were truly shocked by seeing this man killed in front of us and there was a roar of shouting and screams from the women. That's when we heard the Israelis on a loudspeaker shouting, 'give us your men.' We thought, 'thank God, they will save us.'

"We were told to walk up the road to the Kuwaiti Embassy, the women and children in front, the men behind. We had been separated. There were Phalangist Militiamen and Israeli soldiers walking alongside us. I could still see Hassan (her husband with whom she was 3 months pregnant) and Faraj (her brother-in-law). It was like a parade. There were several hundred of us. When we got to Cite Sportif, the Israelis put us women in a big concrete room and the men were taken to another side of the stadium. There were a lot of men from the camp and I could no longer see my husband. The Israelis went around saying 'Sit, sit.' It was 11 AM. An hour later we were told to leave. But we stood outside amid the Israeli soldiers, waiting for our men.

"Some men came out, none of them younger than 40, and they told us to be patient, that hundreds of men were still inside. Then about 4 PM an Israeli officer came out. He was wearing dark glasses and said in Arabic: 'What are you waiting for?' He said there was nobody left, that everyone had gone. There were Israeli trucks moving out with tarpaulin over them. We couldn't see inside. And there were jeeps and tanks and a bulldozer making a lot of noise. We stayed there as it got dark and the Israelis appeared to be leaving and we were very nervous. But when the Israelis had moved away, we went inside. And there was no one there. Nobody. I had been only three years married. I never saw my husband again."
 

Nobody kills Arabs Like Arabs do...but hey, let's blame the Jews

" Becky Johnson seems to think that the Sabra and Shatila massacre is not worth discussing because 1982 is supposedly ancient history. "

There's nothing new about Arabs killing arabs, that's what Sabra Shatila was ll about..
Just like Black September, when Jordan saughtered 20,000 palestinians...except in that case, the Jews weren't blamed for it, the Jordanians proudly admitted it (hey, waht a coincidence, that's why the murderous palis ended up in Lebanon, once there they set out on a program of mass extermination of Christian Arabs - which was the direct cause for the Arab massacre of other arabs a sabra shatilla)
 

The crimes of the Hashemite monarchy are well established

The crimes of the Hashemite monarchy are well established.

I've already dealt with the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan calling for an end to U.S. military aid to the Kingdom and for the Kingdom’s overthrow as part of the establishment of a federation of socialist republics in the region that guarantees the rights of all national groups, including Palestinians and Hebrew speakers.

According to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan’s official U.S. Embassy website, “The president requested $198 million in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) compared to 2002 level of $75 million, and $250 million in Economic Support Funds (ESF) compared to $150 million in 2002.?

In addition they state, “Jordan will receive $2.4 million under the International Military Education and Training program compared to $2 million in 2002.?

We already know that Becky Johnson backs U.S. military aid to the repressive government of Egypt. We also already know that she accuses us of being silent on the crimes of what are in reality U.S. puppet governments ruling over Arab peoples.

Yet it is not the human rights activists who have been silent: Will Becky Johnson join my call for ending U.S. military aid to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan?

But let's not let Becky change the subject here either.

The Zionist above calls Palestinians, "murderous palis". The Zionist then claims that the Nazi inspired and Israeli funded and militarily backed Christian Phalangists were driven to murder Palestinian innocents. In addition the Zionist ignores all of the direct roles that Israel played in the massacre. The Zionists do this not just to deny blame for Israel’s crimes against humanity, but to make it look like it was only the two people Zionists hate the most killing each other, Arabs and Arabs.

Sounds a whole lot like Becky Johnson's chillingly racist reference to the 3,000 murdered, "They were not “innocent Palestinians?.? Of course they weren’t “innocent Palestinians?, because in Becky Johnson’s sick and demented mind there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian.
 

BULLSHIT BECKY, YOU ARE *SO* PATHETIC!!:

And some call me a racist!
by Becky Johnson 10 Feb 2005

BULLSHIT BECKY: " JA calls me a racist. But one person was so moved by JA's crude interruptions of a pro-Israel speaker up at Berkeley a while back he wrote in a letter complaining to the newspaper. In it he said that JA repeatedly shouted "You’re all a bunch of filthy Jewish liars."

JA then approached the paper to say he had said no such thing. The paper printed a retraction of sorts. But then the scheduled speaker, whose speech JA was so intent on interrupting, wrote in to say that he repeatedly heard the man saying "You’re all a bunch of filthy Jewish liars," As he spoke from the podium. "


BULLSHIT BECKY: "I don't know about you, but JA's words sound like hate speech to me."

WHY, BECKYO?: WERE YOU THERE???

NOW LET'S SEE JUST *WHO* BECKY IS TALKING ABOUT (OF COURSE SHE DOES NOT NAME THAT MYSTERIOUSLY UNNAMED SPEAKER -- OR THE OTHER PERSON (A BAY AREA OPERATIVE OF THE ZIONIST LOBBY) WHO WAS "SO MOVED"):

===============================================================================


The Berkeley Daily Planet
Weekday Edition, February 24-26, 2004


"LAST WORDS ON LECTURE CONTROVERSY: TRUTH TO POWER"


In its February 13-16, 2004, weekend edition, the Berkeley Daily Planet printed a defamatory letter to the editor written against me, an African American progressive activist, by a conservative pro-Israel individual named Dan Spitzer.

That letter contained an absolutely false allegation about a statement that Spitzer purported I made while engaged in a public protest at the February 10th, UC Berkeley campus speech of right-wing, pro-Israel media pundit Daniel Pipes. Spitzer pathetically claimed that I screamed, "You're all a bunch of filthy Jewish liars."

As the anti-racist, anti-Zionist, Jewish-American essayist and public lecturer Tim Wise (read online) noted, "[Zionists] can’t be expected to place a very high premium on truth" and, obviously, no lie is too brazen.

As I understand it, it is general newspaper policy to refrain from printing an undocumented — and especially defamatory — accusation such as a second-hand, unverified quote.

Of course, I did not say what Spitzer claimed, as many witnesses to the event can readily attest. In fact, it was I who urged the Daily Planet, in their published apology to me for printing Spitzer’s letter, to seek to obtain a recording of the event from Berkeley Hillel. Such a recording would directly demonstrate the falseness of his accusation.

[In fact, if Dan Spitzer's accusation were true, no one would even have to ask Hillel for an audio record copy of the event: an audio record would be readily provided. Such a record has never been provided.]

My actual verbal protest against Pipes was only one voice amongst numerous others speaking out from both the campus and the community. Pipes is a highly controversial and divisive figure, well-known as the American voice for the most reactionary anti-Palestinian and anti-Muslim elements in the far right-wing of Israel’s conservative (Ariel Sharon’s) Likud Party.

Pipes is also a founder of CampusWatch, a right-wing ideological organization that engages in McCarthyist intimidations of academics. It attacks the very free speech and academic freedom that Berkeley Hillel pretends to champion in this case. CampusWatch attacks, particularly, those who politically criticize Israel or Zionism (its fundamentalist, apartheid ideology), or for their so-called “un-Americanism.?

Pipes has taken the position that the Middle East peace process should be abandoned altogether. He believes that Israel should pursue the most extreme military action until the Palestinians are totally crushed as a viable, indigenous people and abjectly surrender all claims to their homeland and self-determination. He also characterizes the vast majority of Muslims and Arabs, internationally and in the Muslim and Arab-American community, as either actual or potential terrorists.

Given his background, it is shocking and shameful that his Hillel sponsors — who are keen to count (typically including any political criticism of Israel) every single incidence of hate speech against Bay Area Jews — would invite a hate speaker like Daniel Pipes to campus.

This invitation prompted a February 10th formal letter to the Daily Californian, signed by many Jews and others in the university community, objecting to Hillel’s invitation to Pipes in the strongest possible terms. The letter described Pipes as "vilely xenophobic" and "echo[ing] messages directed against Jews in the past." The signatories to the letter included Professor Emerita Bluma Goldstein, who lost over 30 members of her family in the Holocaust, but who nonetheless morally rejects the imposition of nationalist Zionism in Palestine.

It was Albert Einstein who once said, "It would be my greatest sadness to see Jews do to [Palestinian] Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews."

I, especially as an African American, consider Pipes’ notorious anti-Arab racist views and extreme anti-Muslim bigotries — which he again espoused that evening — morally unacceptable. Thus, my conscience compelled me to be included in the many ethnically and religiously diverse (including Jews, Muslims, Christians, other faiths, and secular) voices of objection to Pipes’ hate speech.

In a highly visible, nonviolent form of potential civil disobedience, with the voluntary expectation of being escorted out, I proclaimed to Pipes individually, stating: "You're a racist Jew [implicitly noting the irony] and you should be *ashamed* of yourself. Gandhi opposed Zionism. Nelson Mandela opposes Zionism. Desmond Tutu opposes Zionism. Paul Robeson opposed Zionism. You're the Jewish David Duke!"

Thus, I did not, contrary to Spitzer’s false quote, engage in invective or derogatory remarks about Jewish people as a group. I noted Pipes’ Jewishness to emphasize the tragic irony of such a person engaging in the same sort of racist and bigoted behavior which Jews themselves have suffered under throughout history, and which goes against the traditions and philosophy of the Jewish faith.

As for right-wing Spitzer duplicitously invoking Mario Savio: First, Savio was not a racist or a bigot. Second, Savio championed the meaningful free speech rights of those who politically dissent — those without state or corporate media backing — to speak truth to Power; he didn’t champion Power’s right to free speech, which it inherently has. Third, Savio said that when a system becomes so heinously oppressive, people of conscience must throw themselves upon the gears of that onerous system. In a small but visible way, that’s what we protesters did. Savio also said that protest should be principled, not necessarily polite.

Not one word of Pipes’ prepared speech went unspoken: he still had his (otherwise media-ubiquitous) “free speech.? No protester attempted to actually stop him from speaking. But, we people of conscience will not let an evident racist/bigot like Pipes carry on without inconvenient interruptions for truth. Pipes wasn’t engaged in free speech, he was engaged in hate speech.

There’s a clear message here: if you’re a notorious racist, bigot, or oppressor, don’t come to Berkeley.


Joseph Anderson,
Berkeley, CA


================================================================================


NO BECKY0: YOU'RE NOT JUST A *RACIST*; YOU'RE ALSO A *LIAR*.
 

Some more crap from Argue the buffoonish liar

As if to add some seasoning to the usual lies he ever defiantly repeatedly drones, he's now apparently making an insinuation that the Phalangist party was Nazi inspired ideologically. The party's founder was inspired by the Nazi party's organizational structure and tried to emulate it when he created his own, but soundly rejected Nazi ideology:

"In 1935, Gemayel was appointed to lead Lebanon's Olympic team at the Olympic Games in Berlin. There he had a chance to study the organization of Germany's Nazi Party. Gemayel strongly opposed Nazi ideology, but admired their formidable and efficient organization, and concluded that to have any hope of success, any Lebanese nationalist movement would have to be structured similarly. Accordingly, on his return to Lebanon in 1936, he founded the Kataeb Party together with four colleagues" www.falange.us/pierre.htm

Before Argue the buffoon tries babbling about the supposed unreliability of the source as if it can't be trusted, remember his anti-Israel sources in general and communist ones in particular routinely employ lying as a weapon.
 

"Critical Thinkafier", The History Expert

Supposed proof of the distance of the Christian Phalangists from Nazism.

"Gemayel strongly opposed Nazi ideology, but admired their formidable and efficient organization..." I could get into details, but the quote pretty much refutes itself.

And this history lesson from so-called "Critical Thinker", the rabid Zionist who claimed that no credible source would ever say that Jabotinsky was ever part of the Haganah. Yet I proved to him that Jabotinsky not only was a member, but founded it.

It seems my “communistic? sources are far superior to his ignorance and knee jerk racist reactions to corporate propaganda. Yet I must say that my sources are far more diverse than so-called “Critical Thinker? would suggest.
 

Steve is using his Shit-colored-brush again!

Steve, I don't mind you voicing your disagreements with me, but you falsely state my positions.

You OUTRAGEOUSLY falsely state that I support the mass murder of 3000 innocents. In reality, I have said that the massacre was prompted by Palestinian mass murder of Lebanese Christians (a fact that never gets mentioned despite your REPEATED POSTS of the same article with the testimony of ONE witness.)Hence, the Palestinians "were not so innocent". That said, many who were killed had no part in the previous murders, and so innocent life was lost. Why you bring this up again and again and again is no doubt your need to PROVE that Israel commits mass murder, when in fact, it doesn't. Black September doesn't 'ignore' Israel's role. There was no role in the killings other than a later investigation ruled that Sharon "should" have known what was about to happen and he "should" have tried to stop it. That's hugely different than "committing mass murder of 3000 Palestinian innocents."

And STEVE---do you have ANY other source than the one eyewitness you repeatedly post to a role of the IDF in the actual killing 23 years ago?
I'm sorry, but one eyewitness isn't much evidence.

I am not aware that the US government has "puppet governments" in Egypt or any other Arab country. I think your political assessment of the situation is wrong. Certainly, the USA would LIKE to have a lot of influence, but its only marginally successful in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and few other places.

Remember, even Turkey turned the USA down prior to the Iraq war.

NOTE TO CLARENCE DARROW: "In a highly visible, nonviolent form of potential civil disobedience, with the voluntary expectation of being escorted out, I proclaimed to Pipes individually, stating: "You're a racist Jew [implicitly noting the irony] and you should be *ashamed* of yourself. Gandhi opposed Zionism. Nelson Mandela opposes Zionism. Desmond Tutu opposes Zionism. Paul Robeson opposed Zionism. You're the Jewish David Duke!"

While JA denies saying "You're all a bunch of filthy Jewish liars!" he DOES admit to disrupting the speaker and shouting epitaphs at him. Pipes AND Spitzer both claim he said it. That's two to one. No I wasn't there. But I can read.

Perhaps JA can get the tape, upload it for us, so we can all here how innocent he is.







I do NOT back US military aid to Egypt. In fact, I was the one who asked YOU if you had a problem with the aid, considering Egypt has numerous human rights violations, racist policies encoded into law (unlike Israel) AND because $2 billion of that US aid is part of the provision of the Egypt/Israel peace treaty of 1979.

You falsely state that I favor the aid. In reality, I have serious concerns about how Egypt is using that aid, but I'm not so reckless as to call for its abrupt ending either, per the aforementioned peace treaty.
 

She ALSO says Rachel Corrie had it coming

rachel.jpg
rach1.jpg
Corrie2.jpg
BESIDES Becky Johnson defending the mass murder of 3,000 innocents at Sabra and Shatila saying, “They were not innocent Palestinians.? And refusing to admit the well-known role Israel and Ariel Sharon had in orchestrating it:

She ALSO says Rachel Corrie, defending a Palestinian home with her body, had it coming.

Some homeless activist: She promotes homelessness.

In addition Becky Johnson is completely ignorant of the fact that most of the repressive governments of the region are puppets of U.S. interests. The nationalist rhetoric of the leaders Kuwait and Saudi Arabia is meant to mask the fact that the monarchies are conspiring with U.S. oil interests to rob the people blind of their resources and labor.

On Egypt she has repeatedly argued with me in support of military aid saying that it, along with military aid to Israel was assuring peace. I could pull out actual quotes, but will accept that she has now changed her position.

Now will she join me, as I requested earlier, in calling for an end to U.S. military aid to the repressive Hashemite Monarchy in Jordan?


The Courage of Rachel Corrie
Revolutionary Worker #1194, April 13, 2003,posted at rwor.org


Rachel Corrie, holding a megaphone, confronts an Israeli bulldozer driver attempting to demolish a Palestinian home, Rafah, Occupied Gaza, 16 March 2003. Taken moments before she was killed.

23-year-old Rachel Corrie left her home in the United States and went to Palestine to join other volunteers organized by the International Solidarity Movement. Along with other "internationals" she participated in non-violent direct action resistance to the Israeli occupation. Rachel Corrie stood with the struggle of the Palestinean people and for this she was murdered in cold blood by the forces of Israeli occupation.

Rachel was in Rafah in southern Gaza, where stone-throwing youth have been resisting the occupation forces for several months. In an e-mail to her family on February 7, she described Rafah as "a city of about 140,000 people, approximately 60 percent of whom are refugees."

Rafah existed prior to 1948, but most of the people here are themselves or are descendants of people who were relocated here from their homes in historic Palestine, now Israel. Rafah was split in half when the Sinai (which had been seized by Israel) returned to Egypt. The Israeli army is now building a 14-metre- high wall between Rafah in Palestine and the (Egyptian) border. Over 600 homes have been completely bulldozed and even more homes have been partially destroyed. The Israeli army has also been destroying the wells where people get their water.

On March 16, Rachel Corrie and several others sat down in front of a house that was being targeted for demolition by the Israel military. Joseph Smith, who was also in Rafa as an "international," gave this eyewitness account of how Rachel Corrie was murdered:

"Still wearing her fluorescent jacket, she sat down at least 15 meters in front of the bulldozer, and began waving her arms and shouting, just as activists had successfully done dozens of times that day. The bulldozer continued driving forward headed straight for Rachel. When it got so close that it was moving the earth beneath her, she climbed onto the pile of rubble being pushed by the bulldozer. She got so high onto it that she was at eye-level with the cab of the bulldozer. Her head and upper torso were above the bulldozer's blade, and the bulldozer driver and co-operator could clearly see her. Despite this, he continued forward, which pulled her legs into the pile of rubble, and pulled her down out of view of the driver. If he'd stopped at this point, he may have only broken her legs, but he continued forward, which pulled her underneath the bulldozer. We ran towards him, and waved our arms and shouted, one activist with the megaphone. But the bulldozer driver continued forward, until Rachel was underneath the central section of the bulldozer. At this point, it was more than clear that she was nowhere but underneath the bulldozer, there was simply nowhere else she could have been, as she had not appeared on either side of the bulldozer, and could not have stayed in front of it that long without being crushed. Despite the obviousness of her position, the bulldozer began to reverse, without lifting its blade, and drug the blade over her body again."

The same day Rachel Corrie was murdered, six Palestinians, including a two-year-old girl, were killed when Israeli tanks and armor invaded the Nusseirat refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. And Zionist armed forces killed two more Palestinians elsewhere in Gaza on this day.

An Israeli military spokesman blamed Rachel Corrie for her own death, stating that she had "acted irresponsibly by placing herself in front of the bulldozer." The U.S. Embassy had no comment. When a memorial service was held for Rachel in Rafah, the Israeli army sent its own representative: A tank pulled up beside the mourners and sprayed them with tear gas. Then the Israelis brought out a bulldozer accompanied by more APCs, and fired guns and percussion bombs.

Rachel had stayed in Palestinian homes targeted for destruction by Israeli bulldozers, and other peace activists say she had quickly developed close relationships with the families in these homes. Rachel also helped organize a demonstration in Rafah in solidarity with the people of Iraq --which took place on the international day of action in March and attracted several hundred Palestinians. For the protest, Rachel had made a banner that said, "No War on Iraq, No War on Rafah." There is much to learn from the courage and commitment of Rachel Corrie and how she lived and died, supporting and learning from the people of the world. In her e-mail, she wrote, "An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two weeks before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me, `Ali', or point at the posters of him on the walls... There are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago at least regarding Israel, in resistance to the constant stranglehold of the world's fourth largest military backed by the world's only superpower in its attempt to erase (them) from (their) home...I am just beginning to learn, from what I expect to be a very intense tutelage, about the ability of people to organize against all odds, and to resist against all odds."
 

Oops, Spoke Too Soon

I saw where Becky Johnson said, "I do NOT back US military aid to Egypt."

And didn't see where she said, "I have serious concerns about how Egypt is using that aid, but I'm not so reckless as to call for its abrupt ending either, per the aforementioned peace treaty."

So she does not call for an end to military aid to the repressive government of Egypt. So how can she complain about the repressive nature of Arab governments when she supports sending billions of dollars in military aid to these U.S. backed puppet regimes? She is more to blame for those governments than the masses of oppressed Arabs who suffer under and struggle for freedom under them.

Likewise Becky Johnson has yet to call for an end to U.S. military aid to Jordan, in addition to calling for an end to U.S. military aid to the racist government of Israel.
 

'Funny', only * 2 * out of the *MANY* Jews all around heard what Spitzer & Pipes claimed I said â with their 'magic ears'!!

-

BULLSHIT BECKY: "While JA denies saying "You're all a bunch of filthy Jewish liars!"..."


WHY DIDN'T PIPE'S SPONSOR **HILLEL** SAY THAT THEY HEARD WHAT SPITZER AND THEIR OWN GUEST SPEAKER CLAIMED I "SCREAMED"!???

WHY DIDN'T THE UC BERKELEY DAILY CALIFORNIAN, WHO COVERED THE EVENT, REPORT THIS, IF I *"SREAMED"* THAT OUT???


ANDERSON COLUMN: " In fact, it was I who urged the Daily Planet, in their published apology to me for printing Spitzer’s letter, to seek to obtain a recording of the event from Berkeley Hillel. Such a recording would directly demonstrate the falseness of his accusation.

[In fact, if Dan Spitzer's accusation were true, no one would even have to ask Hillel for an audio record copy of the event: an audio record would be readily provided. Such a record has never been provided.] "


AND WE KNOW THAT *SPITZER* AND *PIPES* ARE JUST ABOUT AS TRUSTWORTHY AS, SAY..., **BULLSHIT BECKY**!! -- WHO ALL DON'T BELIEVE THAT A JEW CAN EVEN BE *RACIST*.

NO DOUBT -- NOW THAT SHE BROUGHT IT UP -- WITH BULLSHIT BECKYO'S -- OR NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER'S -- 'PULL', BERKELEY HILLEL CAN BE PREVAILED UPON TO FINALLY, PUBLICLY RELEASE THE TAPE!!

SINCE BECKYO (AND CT) KNEW ABOUT IT A LONG TIME AGO, WHY HASN'T **SHE** (THEY) GOTTEN THE AUDIO TAPE RELEASED FOR *ALL* TO HEAR!???

YO BECKYO!: WHERE WAS/IS **YOUR** RESPONSIBILITY!!???

ARE YOU JUST STANDING BY AND DOING **NOTHING**!!???

WHY NOT GET THE TAPE AND PLAY IT ON YOUR (OR LEE KAPLAN'S) RADIO PROGRAM!!??? WHAT AN *EXPOSE*, HUH!!?


BULLSHIT BECKY: "he [JA] DOES admit to disrupting the speaker and shouting epitaphs at him."

YES [EYES CAST 'SHAMEFULLY' DOWNWARD]..., I MUST ADMIT THAT I AND ABOUT *100* OTHER PEOPLE -- JEWISH, PALESTINIAN, AND OTHERS -- *DID* INDEED GO PROTEST -- AND *DISRUPT* -- THE ANTI-PALESTINIAN ANTI-SEMITIC RACIST DANIEL PIPES.

ANDERSON COLUMN: " My actual verbal protest against Pipes was only one voice amongst numerous others speaking out from both the campus and the community.

...This invitation prompted a February 10th formal letter to the Daily Californian, signed by many Jews and others in the university community, objecting to Hillel’s invitation to Pipes in the strongest possible terms. The letter described Pipes as "vilely xenophobic" and "echo[ing] messages directed against Jews in the past." The signatories to the letter included Professor Emerita Bluma Goldstein, who lost over 30 members of her family in the Holocaust, but who nonetheless morally rejects the imposition of nationalist Zionism in Palestine. "


BULLSHIT BECKY: "No I wasn't there.

YEP! THAT'S RIGHT!


BULLSHIT BECKY: "But I can read."

DID YOU EVER *READ* ANYTHING ABOUT *YOUR* CLAIM THAT "ISRAEL WAS *ATTACKED* IN THE 1956 [SUEZ] WAR"!??? ...WE'RE **STILL* WAITING FOR YOU TO GOOGLE IT, READ IT, COPY IT, PROVIDE A URL, AND REPORT BACK.

WHEN CAUGHT **LYING** ABOUT *THAT*, YOU 'INTELLIGENTLY' AND EVER SO 'ELOQUENTLY' THEN SAID, "I DUNNO ABOUT IT"!!

SAY, *BECKYO*, WILL BERKELEY HILLEL HELP YOU OUT -- FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK(!!) -- AND RELEASE COPIES OF THE AUDIO TAPE FOR *ALL* TO HEAR -- ESPECIALLY TO SC-IMC AND INDYBAY AND FOR YOUR OWN (OR KAPLAN'S) RADIO SHOW!!???

WHY, NOT EVEN **DAVID HOROWITZ** HAS BEEN ABLE TO GET A COPY!!

-
 

Becky Denies and Once Again Justifies The Murder Of Innocents

sabra_and_shatila.jpg
Becky Johnson Says:

"You OUTRAGEOUSLY falsely state that I support the mass murder of 3000 innocents."

More Becky blabber and then wammo:

"Hence, the Palestinians "were not so innocent"."

Sounds like your other statement:

“They were not innocent Palestinians.?

Of course they weren't, Becky, they spoke Arabic.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

All 3,000 Arabs shot themselves to prove how bad the Jews are. Anyway the Palestinians had it coming. They blow up buildings and rape white women. Israel is the victim here, but you are too blind in your antisemitism to see it.
 

Twist, twist, twist that meaning

Steve: Its disingenuous to remove the context of my speech, post a snippet which has a different meaning altogether when taken out of context, and then condemn me for that new, fictionalized meaning. Case in point:

HERE IS WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE: "the massacre was prompted by Palestinian mass murder of Lebanese Christians (a fact that never gets mentioned despite your REPEATED POSTS of the same article with the testimony of ONE witness.)Hence, the Palestinians "were not so innocent". That said, many who were killed had no part in the previous murders, and so innocent life was lost."

So where is the part where I support the mass murder of 3,000 innocents?

By contrast, YOU keep insisting the Israelis committed mass murder there. They didn't. And you can post Mrs Serwawi's statement 20 years after the event until hell freezes over and it won't change the facts. Israel killed no one at Sabra and Shatila.

If you want to badmouth some mass murderers, you should go to Sudan. And you dont have to dig thru some dusty record from 1982 either. Of course its hard to blame Israel for the mass murder in Sudan, so it may not be worth your time. Since your motive is to defame Israel no matter what crooked trick you have to pull,what logic you have to twist, and what phoney document you have to hawk. Anything goes when it comes to defaming Israel, right Steve?

What did the Jews ever do to you?

thanks for posting the phoney ISM pictures of rachel corrie too. Everybody look!! they are TWO DIFFERENT BULLDOZERS! one is red. one is blue. the lights are mounted on top on one and in hte front on the other. the skylines are different and the time of day is dramatically different.

Phoney doctored photos.

Oh, I and I never said Rachel Corrie had it coming. You lied about that too.
 

Twist, twist, twist my words

Steve, quit quoting me out of context. You twist my meaning by removing the context. My position is that Israel did not kill any Palestinian, innocent or otherwise at Sabra and Shatila.

My position is against the killing of innocent life regardless of race or creed. It always has been and ALL my writings are consistant on this point. Must you twist my words to win a point?

The Rachel Corrie photos you have posted are of TWO DIFFERENT BULLDOZERS. Please, everyone take a good look. One bulldozer is red. The other is blue. One has lights mounted on top and the other has headlights mounted on front. Also, the time of day is distinctly different.

If you are trying to suggest those photos were taken seconds apart,...well...I guess you are a liar...again. Big surprise.

Rachel Corrie put herself in harms way for a cause she believed in. I personally wouldn't have put my life on the line to defend a Palestinian gun smuggling tunnel, but thats what she did. ISM has doctored several photos in an effort to make their story match the photos. See a series of photos on the dafka website.
 

And the truth shall set you free....well, maybe

JA--you are the one who is under suspicion of having said bigoted and racist remarks to a pro-Israel speaker. YOU are the one who should be beating the bushes to find that tape which could clear you. Because right now, it looks to me like you are a racist, anti-semitic hate-monger.

I know you feel bad that you have lost my respect. But I will do my best to try to get a copy of the tape so your name can be cleared. You don't want people thinking you are a racist, bigotted anti-semite!
 

Steve, why post photos of those dead bodies twice in the same thread?

What's the deal? Steve, are you so short of material you have to post, repost, and repost the SAME material? I mean you've posted that tired and unconvincing "eyewitness" account of Mrs. Serwawi's testimony over a half dozen times. ANd now you posted this grisly photo of bodies KILLED BY LEBANESE CHRISTIAN PHALANGES twice now in the same thread.

Shall I post some photos of bloodied bodily remains from Palestinian suicide bombings?

How about the 15 Kassem rockets Hamas fired into Israeli towns near Gaza YESTERDAY --not in 1982!!

You seem to almost relish American soldiers blown up by suicide bombers in Iraq.

Are you for dead bodies or against dead bodies Steve? Or does it matter to you who's bodies are dead?
 

Becky Johnson Slithers And Squirms, But Here is What She Said

Becky Johnson, "So where is the part where I support the mass murder of 3,000 innocents?"

Here it is, "They were not "innocent Palestinians" since a day or two before a group of them went into a Lebanese camp and murdered 65 men, women, and children. When the Lebanese Phalanx came up the road to the camp where the murderers were hiding, Ariel Sharon let them through. It was the Lebanese army that killed the Palestinians."

Besides denying the facts you claimed, "They were not "innocent Palestinians". Now you are slightly changing your position. So how many of the 3,000 were not innocent and how many were innocent?

In addition I cited many more sources than just one regarding Israeli involvement in the massacre, but just keep lying, people can look for themselves.

And, Becky, when are you going to apologize to the Lebanese Army for their supposed role?
 

Rachel Corrie Facts

largerachfront.jpg
rach3.jpg
The ISM site clearly states that the two pictures of Rachel Corrie are of her at two different locations a few hours apart. Yet Becky Johnson and Dafka create another straw man to knock it down.

In addition you have no evidence that the house I post here that Rachel Corrie was defending was anything but the house of a Palestinian doctor, his wife, and three children.
 

Re: Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis

Above I am not referring to the two latest photos I posted, but the ones Johnson claims are fakes.
 

Hey JA

Is it really true what Becky says about you 'hurling epitaphs' at the insane fascist extremist Daniel Pipes? Hey, that's not nice, man! especially if they happened to be engraved in great big granite tombstones (did you splatter his head? Huh? Huh? Did ya??)
 

Ever notice how similar the photo looks like Jewish Holocaust victims laid out at a Nazi death camp?:

Becky Denies and Once Again Justifies The Murder Of Innocents
by Steven Argue 11 Feb 2005
 

The nauseating lying buffoon Argue will always twist

any text into the contortions that could serve his poinsenous lying anti-Israel propaganda.

The buffoon claims that the excerpt I quoted from the official Phalangist website, "Gemayel strongly opposed Nazi ideology, but admired their formidable and efficient organization..." pretty much refutes itself. But then again, anyhing is possible in that jerk's la-la fantasy land.
He even tries to dig up my mistake of initially claiming that no reliable source would maintain Jabotinsky's organization was the Haganah (notice how he distorted even my initial claim), as if that mistake can somehow erode the credibility of the assertion made by the official Phalangist site that their party wasn't *ideologically* inspired by the Nazis.
 

Steve Argue posts more doctored photos!

Any ruse is acceptable in the service of condemning Israel, huh Steve?

The photo you posted of Corrie in front of a house has also been doctored. Look carefully at the photo. Corrie and the man next to her have no feet!! Also, they are not standing upright as gravity would dictate. This is a photo-shop special.

The reason the ISM has posted doctored photos is because Corrie was NOT killed defending a house. She was standing in an open field defending an arm's smuggling tunnel. What a waste of a human life!! And yes, I support Israel's efforts to shut down those tunnels.

Hypocrite tries to make the claim that the deaths in 1982 somehow prove the Israelis are no better than the Nazis. But how is this proof of anything when the Israelis did not kill those people? What about photos of the bodies of the people the Palestinian terrorists who were hiding in the camp murdered? What would those photos prove?

Steve posted these photos for their shock value only, but they are no evidence of any Israeli war crime. If anything, they are evidence of the retribution suffered by many for the acts of a few Palestinian murderers.

Also: Lee Kaplan of DAFKA informs me that the 3,000 figure for the dead is hyper-inflated. He says the death toll was more in the 800 -900 range. If I get some more confirmation on that, I will post it.
 

Info on Sinai Campaign 1956

What was the background of the Sinai Campaign in 1956?

www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sinai_backgd.php
 

The legendary (to herself) bullshit Becky stars in "Moonbound!"

Becky wretches: "Steve, I don't mind you voicing your disagreements with me, but you falsely state my positions."

No he doesn't. He says you "justify the murder of innocents," and you do. Everyone who's ever been in the path of your projectile vomitations on the subject of Iman al-Hams, etc., knows this about you. You're never gonna live that shit down.

"Why you bring [Sabra & Shatila] up again and again and again is no doubt your need to PROVE that Israel commits mass murder, when in fact, it doesn't."

No, he keeps bringing it up because it DOES very damningly implicate Israel, and he's demonstrated this to everyone's satisfaction but yours, which is mission impossible anyway. You'll NEVER admit that Israel has EVER perpetrated a single human rights violation, and that's cuz you're just Lee's little shiksa on a rampage. Or is it a payroll?

"Certainly, the USA would LIKE to have a lot of influence, but its only marginally successful in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and few other places."

This just clinches it. No authentic leftist would EVER say this about U.S. influence in the Middle East, or any other spot on the globe. A self-deluded conservative fuckhead would, though. They'd also get excited about Kerry, as if his position to the left of Bush were larger than a tiny increment (the closer you yourself are to their tiny little fake right/far-right spectrum, the more different they look).

My mother-in-law is just like you: in her 50s, has this delusion about Kerry and also about Clinton, was a way-rad-groovy-cool-freaky hippy and feminist back in the day, and is just unshakeably convinced she still is. But she's just NOT. It's all ego. Everyone has their price, somehow, for getting corrupted away from all that, and some are downright cheap. Also, once you get started down that path, gravity's on your side. What takes heroic effort is staying there.

Meanwhile, back at the leftist ranch, this is not just some shallow totem of coolness you can put on and take off like a tie-dyed shirt. You take it off once for the sake of convenience, and you forfeit the right to call yourself this. It's an intellectually demanding state of mind; how, why, and what you think is everything. And you, dear Becky, just simply DON'T.

re: NOTE TO CLARENCE DARROW
Woe mwy Gwod! JA actually used the "J" WORD??!?!??! And right to a Jew's face, even??!?!?!!!?!?! Holy shit, let's get Meir Kahane's ghost to hurl acid in his face! I hope he doesn't go around calling African-Americans "African-Americans" or some shit!

This whole fracas with Daniel Pipes has this telltale stink of classic zionist back-stabbing. Pipes is Jewish, correct? And if he's also demonstrably a racist, which is plausible, there's nothing inherently inappropriate in what JA admits to saying. But his accusation (that being a Jewish racist is particularly shameful) IS extremely damaging to the zionist's core tactic of manipulating genteel guilt: as Jews (typically), zionist activists can count themselves among History's Ultimate Victims Of Racism™, which by some weird defect of human psychology makes characterizing THEM as racist just WRONG!!! If you do this even for a second, you're a super-villain wearing a Kaiser helmet and cackling maniacally as you shovel Zyklon-B onto piles of terrified babies... You might as well just slash your wrists.

The zionists reinforce and hide behind this mythology continuously; it's the fulcrum of every single one of their bullshit strategems; it's THE THING that makes their motives in Israel so amazingly immune to critical examination. If it became common for people to entertain the idea that, NO, they ARE racists, then next people would realize why YES they DO satisfy the definition perfectly, whereupon the zionists' most crucial mind-control gimmick would be so much airborne bullshit flying to the far ends of the earth.

This particular criticism that JA leveled is thus much too strategically damaging; a stern intimidating punishment must be delivered to anyone who does this. In fact, it warrants an extreme public dose of the Death Ray: the "anti-Semite" epithet (check that last word there, Beck-O). And so that's what they hit him with. It's SO obvious.

Again, JA, kudos -- you got real cajones and real brains, and that's what heroes are made of.

I encourage everyone to begin calling zionists bigots every time they indecently puke out their bullshit in public. Better yet, get people to CHANT this!

C'mon, people!

BI-GOT!

BI-GOT!

BI-GOT!

Hey Becky, you haven't pretended to be a firearms expert lately. C'mon, I wanna see you pop open more cans of bullshit relating to "Physics," "technology," and all the other subjects you don't vaguely understand. What gives? Your silence on this couldn't possibly mean you're TOTALLY FULL OF SHIT, could it?
 

Why we should question the Hedges article

My "silence" has been the indymedia system crashing when I go to post a comment.

I concede that there are indeed silencers on M16's. The source I had, that there is no such animal was wrong. However, as I previously posted, a silencer does not make a gun silent. The guns Hedges described sound and act more like guns the IDF uses to shoot rubber bullets. I have seen photos of these and I can easily see why Hedges might confuse these with M16's with silencers.

In his article Hedges says "The boys descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me" meaning that Hedges did not see the IDF shoot anyone. He no longer had a visual of the boys.
Then he says "There is no sound of gunfire. The Israeli soldiers shoot with silencers." He claims the bullets then "tumble end over end through the children's bodies."

He doesn't say it, but since he couldn't see the children anymore, he must be relying on "eyewitness" reports. Hence, he concludes (falsely) that the IDF shot children with M16s.

Also, the PA only reported one death that day, and it was of a different person, with a different name and a different age. So where is the "victim" Hedges "saw" the IDF "kill" that day?
 

Steve can post photos till the cows come home

...but it still is no proof whatsoever of an "Israeli" massacre. Please, readers who have been following this discussion READ A HISTORY BOOK!! Steve FALSELY claims those people were killed by the Israelis. They weren't.

Furthermore, Steve Argue gives you NO INFORMATION WHATSOEVER about the massacre committed by Palestinian terror groups the previous days where dozens, if not hundreds of Lebanese Christian men, women, and children were murdered. THAT is why the Lebanese Christian Phalanx went into the camp that day. THAT is why they committed the slaughter.

ISRAEL had nothing to do with that.

LIKEWISE, Deir Yassin was reported to have been an Israeli massacre too, where even Arab sources exaggerated the number killed and fabricated Israeli rapes of Arab women. Ironically, the Arab leaders did this to spur Arab soldiers to attack the Jews ever so much more fiercely. Instead, the reports incited a panic among local Arabs and contributed to the Arab flight in 1948.
 

You're trying out for an AIPAC gig, aren't you Becky?

"I concede that there are indeed silencers on M16's."

Why, thank you. Your honesty here would be most refreshing if you did not immediately follow it up by returning to your 'rubber bullet gun' line of apologetic bullshit. So you're saying M16s with silencers are not perfectly silent, but these rubber bullet guns ARE? What's more, you've pretty much proven now that when it comes to guns you don't know shit from shinola, and yet now you want to play Big Bwana Gun Expert again and have me believe you know absolutely positively that's what Hedges saw, when in fact this is just an unsupported guess on your part, and probably an ignorant one.

You've been caught over and over in these threads twisting "facts" to fit your predetermined conclusion that Israel is totally innocent of any wrong-doing, as if this can ever be said of ANY country. Every time you get nailed, you slink off and disappear for a while, then slither back and start a fresh line of bullshit, as if your opponents here are too stupid to remember you just got your ass kicked.

Your dishonesty and psychotic denial are exceeded only by your chutzpah.

"Arab sources exaggerated the number killed..."

So you're admitting here that Deir Yassin was indeed attacked by Israeli terrorists, who did indeed make an incursion into Palestinian territory to attack this town and kill its residents, and yet this was not an "Israeli massacre?" Wow, dude, trip me out, man! Hey, Beck, I'm like peakin here. You got any more of those 'window panes' on ya?

If I remember correctly, the official zio-apologist bullshit-in-a-can on Deir Yassin is that the Israeli terrorists (Irgun & Stern Gang) killed "only" 100 people there. Ah shit, 'taint nuthin.

Just out of morbid curiosity, what's your official bullshit-in-a-can on the Qana massacre of 1996? For the benefit of others, Qana was a UN compound in southern Lebanon into which Palestinian refugees fled during an Israeli offensive called Operation Grapes of Wrath, which Israel pursued in defiance of a UN security council resolution. Claiming their military positions had been fired upon from the vicinity of Qana (who knows what to believe from these lying fucks), the Israelis leveled the camp with 155-mm artillery rounds, killing 102 people, mostly women and children.

qanababy.bmp


qanacarnage.bmp


On the same day, an Israeli attack helicopter fired rockets into a house, killing Fawziyya Khawaja and all eight of her children (the youngest a four-day-old newborn), along with three other people.

To belabor a point, the IDF's very presence in Lebanon had been declared illegal by the UN

Robert Fisk's Qana dispatch is a must-read, especially for context: www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html
 

Why don't you stop flinging crap and address my arguments?

I never said Israel is totally innocent of any wrong-doing. Don't put words in my mouth, and then condemn me for your words.

All you are doing is hurling insults at me and calling me names. I don't see how that advances any of your arguments or "destroys" mine. You have to challenge my facts with your facts. You have not done so.

As I said about the Chris Hedges article, how do you explain that he did not see the children but reports that bullets passed through their bodies? How is it that he didn't hear any sound of gunfire? How do you explain that the death Hedges reported was not on any PA records for that day? Could Hedges have misreported the incident? YOU have not addressed any of my arguments. My rubber-bullet theory makes more sense than what Hedges reported in his hit piece on Israel.

You are so sure that Israel is an apartheid state which is racist and is committing war crimes against the Palestinians. You are wrong on most counts.

Answer me this: Why do you claim Jewish settlements in their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria on only 1.7% of the West Bank constitutes a human rights violation? What law or treaty do they violate?

Has the security barrier Israel put up actually worked to stop suicide bombers coming from the West Bank? How many lives has it saved so far?

Why do you accuse Israel of stealing Palestinian water when the aquafirs Israel draw on are on Israeli territories within the green line?

Why did the German TV station conclude that Mohammed Dura was NOT killed by the IDF?

What was the death toll in Jenin in 2002? Why did the PA report that 1000 had been killed there?

And regarding Lebanon: (and your grisly photos show the horror of war, but you must admit that there are equally grisly photos of the victims of Palestinian bombings---but Israel has a policy of not showing those out of respect for the families of the victims) Syria has been conducting an illegal and brutal occupation of Lebanon for 20 years!! All without a peep from you or your cohorts (can we say double-standard here??). Israel was begged to come in to protect Christian and non-muslim Lebanese from the Syrians. They pulled out due to the massive protests within Israel to the detriment of the Lebanese Christians.

The bombing today in Lebanon of the former Prime Minister underscores the Syrian occupation and the kind of extortion these occupiers use to suppress any opposition.

Lastly, I am not anti-Palestinian. I want the Palestinians to live in peace, have good housing, good schools, food and medical care. I want them to have self-determination too---but right now that goal is to destroy Israel and to kill the Jews. That is not any kind of worthy goal and I will continue to oppose all such efforts.

BTW: Robert Fisk is biased against Israel and any report of his should be considered in that light.
 

Anytime Arabs lose, it's a massacre

" So you're admitting here that Deir Yassin was indeed attacked by Israeli terrorists, who did indeed make an incursion into Palestinian territory to attack this town and kill its residents, and yet this was not an "Israeli massacre?"

Any time an Arab loses a battle, it's a "massacre"..In a war, both sides get to shoot...Dude..
But, if you're really interested in massacres, you should check out Hama, and Black September...man o man them Ayrabs sure know how to kill their own!
 

Reply to Beckyjohnsonisfullofshit

I am responding to comments made by beckyjohnsonisfullofshit on 31 Jan 2005

FULL OF SHIT WROTE: All the zionist organizations that terrorize people in the news (and academia and politics) for even mildly speaking out against israel, its racist ideology, or for palestinian rights.

BECKY: Have I terrorized anyone? Have I made death threats or suggested we follow anyone home? On the contrary, I have been the victim of such behavior by "peace" advocates who leave anonymous comments here.


FULL OF SHIT: All the zionist organizations that won't even permit an open and fundamental debate on any major network broadcast media (tv/radio) stations.

BECKY: Those would be the media executives of the major networks. Zionists? I don't think so.

FULL OF SHIT: All the zionists that attack imc (fortunately grassroots, independent and run by people who won't be threatened), even though zionists get to spew their ignorant propaganda all over imc discussion boards - but fortunately it does get effectively and openly challenged (much to zionist frustrations).

BECKY: By attack do you mean infect with computer viruses or spam attacks? Do you mean by launching specious lawsuits against IMC? I actually think fullofshit means my having the nerve to present counter-comments to his ideas, which in no way amounts to an attack on the entire IMC network or even on him/her.

FULL OF SHIT: All the zionists that have launched denial of services attacks on the various imc's,.....

BECKY: This is news to me.

FULL OF SHIT: try to _impersonate_

BECKY: I personally use my real name and e-mail address when I use indymedia. I think the format of allowing anonymous postings leads to this kind of misuse. I'm not aware this is a problem exclusive to Zionists.

FULL OF SHIT: and discredit effective voices on imc boards,

BECKY: Your sacred cow is my fatted calf. This is America. Voicing a lot of different opinions is good, healthy, and indicative of democracy in action. If I have libeled or slandered anyone, they can sue me in civil court. Believe me, Barbara Lubin of MECA is not about to sue me for the comments I have made about her here.

FULL OF SHIT: and try to smear them as - what else - "anti-Semites",

BECKY: If the shoe fits....

FULL OF SHIT: or try to infiltrate imc.

BECKY: IMC is a forum and media center for the people. Ordinary people can join in and participate by posting articles, and comments. Why one person is "infiltrating" while another is not is highly subjective. I guess if you disagree with FULL OF SHIT then, you are not one of the people but an outsider stealthily entering where you are not wanted. Of course, I always post my real name, so if I am "infiltrating" then I'm not being very sneaky about it.

FULL OF SHIT: Just a few of these scummy zionist organizations are _israel_, aipac, the adl (you know, the zionist domestic _spy_ organization), the jcrc, and campuswatch.

BECKY: I am not a member of any of those organizations. And I am not a Zionist.

FULL OF SHIT: You, CT (Critical Thinker), are the _last_ person that needs to ask, since you quite well fit several of the above descriptions. Now if you want to play stupid - well, okay, you and becky _not_ playing - that's up to you. (Before I noticed, I originally thought it was becky. Had I originally noticed that it was you under "by", CT, I wouldn't have even bothered to answer. One idiot at a time is enough to deal with.)

BECKY: Your last sentence was garbled, but I take your meaning to be that you originally thought CT and I were the same person, but you were wrong. And we're the idiots. Is that what you meant?
 

THE QANA MASSACRE OF 1996

-

"Just out of morbid curiosity, what's your official bullshit-in-a-can on the Qana massacre of 1996? For the benefit of others, Qana was a UN compound in southern Lebanon into which Palestinian refugees fled during an Israeli offensive called Operation Grapes of Wrath, which Israel pursued in defiance of a UN security council resolution. Claiming their military positions had been fired upon from the vicinity of Qana (who knows what to believe from these lying fucks),..."

THIS IS KNEE-JERK STANDARD PRACTICE FOR THE ISRAELI MILITARY/GOVT -- TO CLAIM THAT THEY "WERE FIRED UPON" FROM WHATEVER LOCATION FILLED WITH CIVILIANS THAT THEY ISRAEL WANTS TO ROCKET, SHELL, OR MACHINE GUN.

(IN THE ISRAELIFICATION OF OUR GOVT AND MILITARY BEHAVIOR -- AND SOONER OR LATER OUR SOCIETY -- THE U.S. MILITARY HAS FREQUENTLY USED THIS EXCUSE TOO.)

ISRAEL (AND THE U.S.) KNOWS THAT IT CAN USE THIS CATCH-ALL EXCUSE BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT IT (AND WE) HAVE A MAINSTREAM/CORP MEDIA THAT WILL NEVER QUESTION OR CHALLANGE SUCH A RUSE

--AND WILL DUTIFULLY STEGNOGRAPHIZE IT RIGHT UP IN THEIR PAPERS OR 'PROPERLY' ECHO IT ON THEIR BROADCASTS.


"the Israelis leveled the camp with 155-mm artillery rounds, killing 102 people, mostly women and children."

UN PERSONNEL SAID THAT THEIR WAS NO FIRING -- ISRAEL ACTUALLY CLAIMED MORTAR OR ROCKET ATTACKS -- FROM THE POSITION/AREA OF THE CAMPS.

AND UN PERSONNEL SAID THAT ISRAEL *KNEW* THERE WAS NO FIRING FROM THE AREA OF THE CAMPS.

BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT *ISRAEL* WOULD NEVER *LIE*, RIGHT BECKYO?

-
 

No Photo Was Doctored.

Since you claim Israel was not involved in the Sabra and Shatila massacre, why are you now arguing about how many they murdered?

3,000 is the best estimate.

Becky Johnson says the photos were doctored.

She must know, she knows everything.

Becky, you lying idiotic supporter of genocide SCUM, you have presented no evidence that the photos were doctored. Not a one of them.

Stop wasting the time of good people working for a better future!
 

Look for Rachel Corrie's feet -- They are not there!

And she and the man standing next to her are not standing at a proper angle for what gravity would dictate. The ISM needed a photo of her standing in front of a house, so they manufactured one! The two bulldozers you posted earlier were of two different bulldozers taken hours apart--not a before and after picture like the ISM intimated. They were put together in sequence to make the viewer believe that the driver ran her over when she was in his plain view.

She actually was sitting on top of a mound of earth that collapsed underneath her, dropping her out of sight of the cat driver. The IDF investigation concluded that her death was accidental.

She died for a cause she believed in. I think its completely a waste of a life to defend Palestinian arms smuggling tunnels, but that is what she did. And since she was killed defending a tunnel in an open field, the ISM had to doctor the photos to "prove" that she was defending a house.

The Israelis murdered no one at Sabra and Shatila. However, after the massacre, both the IDF and the Lebanese authorities went in to assess the aftermath. The Lebanese authorities counted 440 bodies. The IDF counted 700 - 800.
Where did you get your figure of 3,000 dead?
 

Consider the words of Tamara Fiche & Brigette Gabriel

FROM: The Layman Online
Presbyterian Church USA

LETTER TO THE EDITOR:

Many in PCUSA are not getting the full story on the Mid East conflict

November 29, 2004

I have been heartbroken by the anti-Israel position taken by the Presbyterian Church. I hope that you made sure to get facts from the Israeli side, as well as the Palestinian side. It is clear that many in the Presbyterian Church are not getting the full story on the Mideast conflict.

I am a Jewish Arab refugee who was forced to leave my home in Iraq in 1951. I was lucky that Israel welcomed me and 800,000 other Jews and allowed us to assimilate and create new lives for ourselves. In contrast, the Arabs that left their homes in Palestine (at the word of the surrounding Arab states whose plan was to rid the area of Jews), lost their homes because they chose to leave. Those Arabs who chose to stay became Israeli citizens, and experience a very high standard of living compared to most Arab citizens of all other countries.

The other Arab countries should have absorbed the refugees, and allowed them to attain citizenship in the various countries. Instead, the Arabs committed a crime against their brothers, by forcing these Arabs to remain in refugee camps. Please talk to Bridgette Gabriel, a fellow Christian from Lebanon. She will tell you of the horrors her family (and the Lebanese Christians) suffered at the hands of the Lebanese. She grew up thinking that Israel was the devil, and learned instead that Israelis were the most compassionate and caring people around.

Tamara Fiche, Ph.D.
West Orange, N.J.


Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel delivered
at the Duke University Counter-Terrorism Speak Out
October 14, 2004


I'm proud and honored to stand here today as a Lebanese speaking for Israel the only democracy in the Middle East. As someone who was raised in an Arabic country I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the Arabic world.

I was raised in Lebanon where I was taught that the Jews were evil, Israel was the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea.

When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17 without electricity, eating grass to live and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water.

It was Israel who came to help the Christians in Lebanon. My mother was wounded by a Moslem's shell and was taken into an Israeli hospital for treatment.

When we entered the emergency room I was shocked at what I saw. They were hundreds of people wounded, Moslems, Palestinians, Christian Lebanese and Israeli soldiers lying on the floor. The doctors treated everyone according to their injury. They treated my mother before they treated the Israeli soldier lying next to her. They didn't see religion they didn't see political affiliation, they saw people in need and they helped.

For the first time in my life I experienced a human quality that I know my culture would not have shown to their enemy. I experienced the values of the Israelis who were able to love their enemy in their most trying moments. I spent 22 days at that hospital.

Those days changed my life and the way I believe information, the way I listen to the radio or to television. I realized I was sold a fabricated lie by my government about the Jews and Israel that was so far from reality. I knew for a fact that if I was a Jew standing in an Arab hospital, I would be lynched and thrown to the ground as shouts of joy of Allahu Akbar, God is great, would echo through the hospital and the surrounding streets.

I became friends with the families of the Israeli wounded soldiers, one in particular, Rina. Her only child was wounded in his eyes.

One day I was visiting with her and the Israeli army band came to play national songs to lift the spirits of the wounded soldiers. As they surrounded his bed playing a song about Jerusalem Rina and I started crying. I felt out of place and started walking out of the room, and this mother holds my hand and pulls me back in without even looking at me. She holds me crying and says: "It is not your fault." We just stood there crying holding each other's hands.

What a contrast between her, a mother looking at her deformed 19 year old only child, and still able to love me, the enemy, and between a Moslem mother who sends her son to blow himself up to smithereens just to kill a few Jews or Christians.

The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism versus civilization. It's democracy verses dictatorship. It's goodness verses evil.

Once upon a time there was a special place in the lowest depths of hell for anyone who would intentionally murder a child. Now, the intentional murder of Israeli children is legitimized as Palestinian armed struggle. However, once such behavior is legitimized against Israel, it is legitimized everywhere in the world, constrained by nothing more than the subjective belief of people who would wrap themselves in dynamite and nails for the purpose of killing children in the name of god.

Because the Palestinians have been encouraged to believe that murdering innocent Israeli civilians is a legitimate tactic for advancing their cause, the whole world now suffers from a plague of terrorism, from Nairobi to New York, from Moscow to Madrid, from Bali to Beslan.

They blame suicide bombing on "desperation of occupation" Let me tell you the truth. The first major terror bombing committed by Arabs against the Jewish state occurred ten weeks before Israel even became independent. On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948, in anticipation of Israel's independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on Ben Yehuda Street in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem. Fifty-four people were killed and hundreds were wounded.

Thus, it is obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the desperation of occupation, but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state.

So many times in history in the last 100 years, citizens have stood by and done nothing, allowing evil to prevail. As America stood up against and defeated communism, now it is time to stand up against the terror of religious bigotry and intolerance. It's time to all stand up and support and defend the state of Israel, which is the front line of the war against terrorism.
 

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