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PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

4/5/05 -- photos by MATT FITT -- Students at UC Santa Cruz successfully rallied to force military recruiters off of the campus. March 5, 2005
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welcome.jpg
A fitting welcome.
Part 1 covers the rally in front of the book store. More to come...
tomas_brownberets.jpg
Tomas of the Brown Berets spoke to the crowd and got them fired up.
warhead.jpg
No wonder it's so expensive to go to UCSC!
outofcloset.jpg
Or toss themselves into a deep hole.
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1_crowd.jpg
Tomas speaks to the crowd.
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edunotoccupation.jpg
Education Not Occupation
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fuckthearmy.jpg
Direct, unambiguous language is helpful for making your point clear to everyone.
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Organizer 1
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onthemove.jpg
On The Move
 
 


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Comments

the slug says it all

Military...

Welcome To UCSC
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Way to go SAW!! Excellent article, excellent pictures, excellent action!
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

I am so proud to be an alumni. Keep it real UCSC!
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Thanks for printing these pictures. They are better than a thousand words!!
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

beautiful! i'm proud to be an alumni.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Great. I wish I was there.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

I love you, guys and gals, like a mother.
I also hope your actions are highly contagious. Hey, other universities - are you listening?
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

That's just beautiful. Organization and peaceful yet forceful resistance. We need more brave and fiery souls such as those at UCSC.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

awesome!! There are still folks around with heart who have the balls to stand up against what is so wrong with todays world...fuck the military industrial complex and the biggest terrorist on the planet Bush and his corporate buddies ,,well done people...people of the earth tribe rise!!!!
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Without the chance for those wanting and willing to join the military, there really will be a draft instated, and all these idiots will be likely candidates. Way to really think your options through... by the way, not a single uniform in any of the pics, so not much back-up that anyone was 'kicked-off' of the campus..
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Look at the others pictures and you'll see plently of uniform.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

woo-hoo! way to go santa cruz!
if the pigs in green wanna pretend to "defend our freedoms" lets give em something worth fighting for! yeow!

i hope to see the same energy in other schools off UC campus as well.

support our troops by letting them come home
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Awesome guys! You're an inspiration to the rest of us!
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

This is why California rules and Florida sucks.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

I guess this part of the conduct rules just don't apply eh?

"Fighting words" constitute "harassment" when the circumstances of their utterance create a hostile and intimidating environment which the student uttering them should reasonably know will interfere with the victim's ability to pursue effectively his or her education or otherwise to participate fully in University programs and activities. "

When you apply the rules to some, but not all, what is it you really have. It sure ain't freedom.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Ya'll should be very proud of yourselves.








NOT!
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

UCSC is for third rate students, faculty, and administrators who couldn't make it to Berkeley or UCLA. Gawd, these posters are so amateurish. Go up to Sproul Plaza and they'll show you how it is done. Pathetic people, pathetic school. Go Bears!
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Way to go USC! Student with the "Fuck the Army" sign: You rock!
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

.....thus impeding others 1st Amendment rights.........
 

The school for hypocrisy...leave your standards at the door...

I think it is wonderful that these students feel 'free' to express their 1st amendment. Thank god we live in a country where people are 'free' to express discontent or support openly and publicly with such free reign. The one thing that always strikes me as ironic is the fact that a large portion of the activist's, who rally for peace and change, are the most volatile ones. I think such demonstrations could be held without the use of such profanity and vulgar displays. To think these are the same people who support peace and equality. Where is the equality in signs with words like the 'f' word written on it. I would think that a group of students at such a renowned university would have a more extensive vocabulary than that. Perhaps their lack of education is a reason why such blatantly vulgar demonstrations are being held in such a manner. yet, perhaps if these folks were a bit more mature or educated they would be hold a demonstration in a less offensive manner. You see if a student held a sign that says 'f-the NAACP, or F- the faculty' well then we would see some action taken wouldn't we??? So then on a different angle, imagine if a group sponsoring and recruiting for say the Peace Corps were at the campus and a large group of students held a similar rally against the Peace Corps, that would create an unfair, hostile and Unequal environment. Such a situation wouldnt be tolerated under those circumstances would it? So then why is it tolerated in this case? No need to answer....I have seen the writing on the wall. It is blatantly clear to me that these students who claim to be peaceful activist's fighting so-called oppression amongst their peers are oppressive and subjugating in their own regard. Such double standards and hypocrisy are what are being taught these days. In an institution of such a caliber as this it amazes me that prejudice and un-equality run so un-checked. As a soldier who protects thier right to the 1st amendment, I will say this. How will anyone ever take you seriously if you act like a bunch of un-educated, disrespectful, mindless drones who can't even find a more diverse use of the English language??? Try again.....
 

Thou Shalt Not Kill

Yeah, this is fucking funny!

SS is sooo concerned that these unruly, poorly-educated, vicious, oppressive, ignorant, spoiled, unthankful protesters are holding signs and using bad words to try to get their way.

Uh-huh...

And yet, he's putting himself out as a representative of an institution that uses cluster bombs and napalm to force its demands upon people. An institution that prefers to use fear and mass-murder to get its way.

The US military will happily indoctrinate our children to murder other people's children.

To drop bombs that will rip the limbs off of little children or burn alive entire families.

So, SS, why don't you try a little more self-reflection about what it is you support and represent before you give us any more of your self-righteous sermon about vulgarity.


===


"Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the heart of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism."

~ Thich Nhat Hanh (likely; as quoted by MLKing, April 1967)
 

Plus ca change, plus c’est la même chose

This need to maintain social stability for our investments accounts for the counter-revolutionary action of American forces in Guatemala. It tells why American helicopters are being used against guerrillas in Colombia and why American napalm and green beret forces have already been active against rebels in Peru. It is with such activity in mind that the words of the late John F. Kennedy come back to haunt us. Five years ago he said, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

Increasingly, by choice or by accident, this is the role our nation has taken -- the role of those who make peaceful revolution impossible by refusing to give up the privileges and the pleasures that come from the immense profits of overseas investment.

I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing-oriented" society to a "person-oriented" society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered.

A true revolution of values will soon cause us to question the fairness and justice of many of our past and present policies. n the one hand we are called to play the good Samaritan on life's roadside; but that will be only an initial act. One day we must come to see that the whole Jericho road must be transformed so that men and women will not be constantly beaten and robbed as they make their journey on life's highway. True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar; it is not haphazard and superficial. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. A true revolution of values will soon look uneasily on the glaring contrast of poverty and wealth. With righteous indignation, it will look across the seas and see individual capitalists of the West investing huge sums of money in Asia, Africa and South America, only to take the profits out with no concern for the social betterment of the countries, and say: "This is not just." It will look at our alliance with the landed gentry of Latin America and say: "This is not just." The Western arrogance of feeling that it has everything to teach others and nothing to learn from them is not just. A true revolution of values will lay hands on the world order and say of war: "This way of settling differences is not just." This business of burning human beings with napalm, of filling our nation's homes with orphans and widows, of injecting poisonous drugs of hate into veins of people normally humane, of sending men home from dark and bloody battlefields physically handicapped and psychologically deranged, cannot be reconciled with wisdom, justice and love. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.

-- MLK (excerpt, April 1967)
 

A noose of ignorance

While you label the military an orginination thats sole purpose is to kill children and destroy families, you overlook the some of the other horrible things the military has done. Here are some examples,

-The Military provieded over 50% of the disaster relief after the tsunami.

-The Military is the same horrible orginization that saves people when natural disasters strike here at home. Go and see an Army national gaurd Armory in the winter? They provide the homeless with food, showers and shelter.

-When impovershed countries are starving or dying of disease who has the ability to go in short notice to help? the military...

While the current war is a confusing and horrible thing, do not forget that the military still renders aid anywhere, anytime.

Have you ever actually talked with a soldier? We are not killers waiting to kill. We do much more than that. As a human if you were hit by a car I would drop what I was doing and do my best to help you live, not kill you. As an American who lives in the same country as I do, I would support and defend your rights to demonstrate. I would even laydown my life for the fact that you can do that. But I would never, insult who you work for, what you believe in or why you believe in it.

That is what seperates us........
 

Food Not Bombs

>While you label the military an orginination
>thats sole purpose is to kill children and
>destroy families,

Oh, no. I didn't say that such acts are the *sole purpose* of the US military. They're not. The primary purpose of the US military is to maintain and expand economic and political control around the world for the US corporate government.

The children, families, villages which are raped, murdered, burnt, destroyed... their deaths are often incidental to the primary objective(s).


>you overlook the some of the other horrible
>things the military has done.

I apologize that I mentioned only a few of the millions of atrocities and other crimes against humanity committed by the US military.


>-The Military provieded over 50% of the
>disaster relief after the tsunami.

This could easily be accomplished by a non-military force.

>-The Military is the same horrible orginization
> that saves people when natural disasters strike
> here at home.

As before, such actions could easily be accomplished by a non-military force.


>Go and see an Army national gaurd
>Armory in the winter? They provide the homeless
>with food, showers and shelter.

Awww... that's so sweet. Although those same actions could be provided by a non-military force, I'd prefer to imagine the HOMES that we could have provided to those homeless folks by spending TRILLIONS of dollars on internal infrastructure instead of continually pouring down the murder hole.


>-When impovershed countries are starving or
>dying of disease who has the ability to go
>in short notice to help? the military...

Yes, yes. They're well-trained in the "art" of invading foreign countries. But as for bringing in food on short notice, I've seen nothing to make me believe that the same services couldn't be provided with equal or greater efficiency by the UN WHO (World Health Org) or perhaps the Red Cross.


>While the current war is a confusing and horrible
> thing, do not forget that the military still
> renders aid anywhere, anytime.

Anywhere, anytime, huh?
Wounded Knee: Mass murder of civilians.
Hiroshima: Mass murder of civilians.
My Lai: Mass murder of civilians.
Fallujah: Mass murder of civilians.



>Have you ever actually talked with a soldier?

Maternal grandfather served in the Pacific in WWII.

Paternal grandfather shot down, MIA in Korea.

Some family friends returned from Vietnam, though others did not.

Close friend served on front lines of Gulf War I. Made it back, but struggled with his physical and psychological health due to the outrageous horrors he was part of in Iraq. He disappeared a while back.

I've also spoken with Camilo Mejia, who was in charge of a unit in Iraq, but over time had a shift in conscience, finally declaring himself a Conscientious Objector. He spent 9 months in a military prison for his refusal to continue his participation in war.


>We are not killers waiting to kill.
>We do much more than that.

That doesn't change the fact that you kill. No matter haw many good deeds you do, you'll never make up for your unbelievable violence.

The knowing killing of innocent persons is murder. Each of us has a moral and ethical obligation to refuse to engage in such acts.


>As a human if you were hit by a car I would
>drop what I was doing and do my best to help
>you live, not kill you.

But in Iraq, you would fire 50 rounds into the car. You'd hit my whole community with cluster bombs.

You, as an individual, might wish to do good. But when you affiliate yourself with the US military, you pratically guarantee that you will wind up being part of crimes against humanity.


>As an American who lives in the same country
>as I do, I would support and defend your rights
>to demonstrate.

Then how about you help do something about police brutality? 'Cuz I'm not really too concerned about whomever the WhiteHouse has announced as the official Enemy-of-the-Week. Osama and Saddam and all those other bogeymen live on The Other Side of the World.


>I would even laydown my life for the fact
>that you can do that.

That's very noble of you. Really, I'm not kidding. But it seems like all your good intentions get misdirected by rich, powerful men so that instead of risking (and perhaps, losing) your life to protect freedom, they send you around the world and put your life at risk (and kill other people) in order to promote their business interests, to increase their profit margin. That's not fair to you or me.


>But I would never, insult who you work for,what you believe in or why you believe in it.

You'd never insult who I work for? WHY?
Do you really think so highly of my boss? Or is it just a respect for employers, in general?

Insult what I believe in?
What I believe in is insulted and rejected with every bullet fired and every bomb dropped. Every time a little kid (and anyone else) gets his arms blown off, or is ripped to bloody pieces, by another immoral, criminal US-made and US-delivered cluster bomb is a gross insult to everything I believe in.
 

Peace is but a shadow of war

I my self have never killed anyone....Nor would I want to....However I firmly believe that what we have in this country far out weighs what others have and people have fought and died for it. I will politiley agree to disagree with you on just about every subject you mention....I do think a strong military is effective and needed...But to hate, or attck soldiers here at home is unfair, and prejudice as a whole. To dislike or even resent the government is a right you embrace as do I. To openly express or even fight that is a right I embrace as do you....So please when you feel the hate or anger build up and you feel strong resenment or whatever emotion you feel, do not turn it at the soldiers and servicemembers....I admit some recruiters are vultures, yet people have the 'Right' to ecplore any and all choices of their futures whether you agree or disagree with what their choice is....when a person asks a question I trust that there are plenty of educated people to share facts or conflicting opinions to ensure that each individual is making a well educated decision. I weighed my choices when I join...i knew the odds....and granted some are displeased....but I am happy....and others should be allowed to look at these roads as well...
 

Do Not Support Murder

> I my self have never killed anyone....
> Nor would I want to....

And yet, you will KILL when the order is given, won't you? Even if it means dropping cluster bombs on some random little village of unknown people in the middle of absolutely nowhere.

And remember that other members of your organization engage in those activities on a regular basis. You are part of that organization, the one that blows off the arms and legs and heads of impoverished little kids in the middle of nowhere. You're not responsible for making the murderous decisions, but you can REFUSE to obey the orders to murder innocent people.


====


"Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the heart of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism."

~ Thich Nhat Hanh (likely; as quoted by MLKing, April 1967)
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Work for peace.......It's apparent that you have no grasp of reality, and it's as well, painfully apparent that it is impossable to carry on an adult conversation with you, soldiering student happens to be a great friend of mine, but yet I am not biased. You make speculation that the US Military's primary function is to blow childrens arm's off.........lets step in to reality. I have to ask you this question, do you think the US would survive without a military? Would you pick up arms and fight to protect our lands if they were being invaded? Rather then label us as murder's, etc. Thank us for protecting your freedom to voice your thoughts, to have the political and world view's you do. Do you think you speak out against the governent and the military like that in the soviet union before it's collapse, of even Iraq under Saddam.....I don't think so, you wold have been found on the banks of the Tigris with a Makarov bullet in the back of you head. As well, regarding the orginal content of this forum, you realize, by keeping recruiter's from recruiting those that might want to join, your screwing everyone else, god forbid a draft start, all of you would be in, and I don't want that....and I know you don't want that.
 

Fight War, Not Wars

>It's apparent that you have no grasp of reality

Wrong.
What's apparent is that you and I live in different realities. (If you can wrap your neurons around that one.) While I am certain that there are many others, one of the crucial differences between these realities (academic-minded folk might call these "paradigms") is that in yours it actually makes sense to "destroy the village in order to save it," while in my reality such behavior is known as a Crime Against Humanity.


>and it's as well, painfully apparent that it
>is impossable to carry on an adult conversation
>with you

It may prove difficult to maintain a well-educated conversation between the you and me, but I suspect that we are both legal adults. If you wish to imply (or state outright) that I am immature, then I suggest that you provide some evidence to back up such an unexpected declaration.


>soldiering student happens to be a great friend
>of mine, but yet I am not biased.

Of course you're biased. We are ALL biased. A person who believes that they are truly objective in their opinions and decisionmaking is painfully deluded and is easily manipulated into parroting the words and ideas of others.


>You make speculation that the US Military's
>primary function is to blow childrens arm's off

Wrong.
Perhaps you'd care to *read* my previous posts prior to commenting upon them? Not only did I not suggest this absurdity initially, I further clarified on 19 July when I stated:

"I didn't say that such acts are the *sole purpose* of the US military. They're not. The primary purpose of the US military is to maintain and expand economic and political control around the world for the US corporate government.
The children, families, villages which are raped, murdered, burnt, destroyed... their deaths are often incidental to the primary objective(s)."


>I have to ask you this question, do you think the
>US would survive without a military?

From Edward S. Herman:
In a widely quoted line from his book The Lexis and the Olive Tree (1999), [Thomas] Friedman says, “The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist. McDonald’s cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the U.S. Air Force F-15, and the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley’s technologies to flourish is called the U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps.? This is not said with any hint that it might be wrong to use force to impose the market on people who don’t seem to want it. It recalls Kissinger’s famous line justifying the U.S. intervention in support of the Chilean coup and followup terror and mass murder, that the Chilean people had been irresponsible in voting in Allende.
zmagsite.zmag.org/Nov2003/herman1103.html


>Would you pick up arms and fight to protect our
>lands if they were being invaded?

I don't know about these being "our" lands, but just like the Lakota and Cheyenne warriors at the Battle of the Little Bighorn, I'd fight to protect my folks from the murderous invaders.


>Rather then label us as murder's, etc. Thank
>us for protecting your freedom to voice your
>thoughts

I thank the people who struggled and died to protect what freedoms we have... I thank the activists who marched, picketed, sat-in, sang... who went on strike in the face of violent cops, thugs, and national guardsmen... who were harrassed, beaten, arrested, murdered. I thank them from the bottom of my heart.

You, on the other hand, have chosen to associate yourself with an organization that prides itself on being one of the most effective and efficient killing machines this planet has ever known. You're part of the machine. Congratulations.


>Do you think you speak out against the governent
>and the military like that in the soviet union
>before it's collapse, of even Iraq under Saddam

Wow, is that the best you can do? Are you seriously telling me that I should love the US military because the socio-political situation in the US is better than it was in the Soviet Union or under Saddam Hussein? That's pathetic. What do you think would happen to me if I said these things in Switzerland? Or Sweden? Or Canada? I'm not saying that those countries are the ultimate bastions of liberty... I'm merely pointing out that comparing the US to some shitty dictatorships is really lame. And also, that the US isn't really unique in terms of free speech.


>you realize, by keeping recruiter's from
>recruiting those that might want to join,
>your screwing everyone else, god forbid a
>draft start, all of you would be in, and I
>don't want that....and I know you don't want
>that.

Screwing everyone else? I don't think so. Every person that doesn't join the US military is one less pawn on the lunatic Neo-conservatives' chessboard. One less person pulling the trigger on Iraqis and Afghans, etc. One less person who will have to live with that murder on their conscience for the rest of their life, if they survive, that is.

A draft? Not bloody likely. Public opposition to a military draft is overwhelming. Seriously advocating for a general military draft would be political suicide for 90% of US politicians. Not going to happen.

But if a draft were implemented, you'd see marches and protests and sit-ins and draft card burnings and endless other forms of civil disobedience almost overnight all across the country. It would make the 60's look like the 50s.

The draft was a major factor in radicalizaing young people during the Vietnam era. A return to the military draft would be a nightmare for the economic elite... far too expensive.

www.warresisters.org/

www.resisters.ca/

;-)
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

You just proved my point.........thank you.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Kudos to all UCSC students from CSULB!

Face the facts: Some people do NOT want to join the military. The fact that recruiters have called my schooling "a waste of a poor taxpayer's paycheck" shows that our country is seriously screwed up. Yes, let's forget my dreams, goals, and interests and ship me to Iraq. THAT'S THE HONORABLE THING TO DO. Whatever.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

"some people DO NOT want to join the military"

And while thats true, some people do want to join the military, and your going to opress those individuals rights to get that information? I thought opression was the very thing you people were fighting. Makes alot of sense to me people, hypocritical don't you think? If you don't want to join, then just let a recruiter know "Hey, I'm not interested", your an adult. Instead you gather around like little children, bitching and crying about how life isn't fair and things are screwed up. I've dedicated 6 1/2 years of my life to serving my country, and guess what, I'm going to serve another 14 years and retire by 38. Are you going to honestly tell me that what I do is wrong? Man up and let the people that are interest get the information they might want, if your not interested, then don't talk to a recruiter. I know if I attended a school and people protested ANY employer trying to pass out information, I would be pissed, because I have my own voice and opinion, I wouldn't need someone assuming that they were speaking up for me. Time to grow up children, your in college, I think you should be educated enough to not mass up in a huge mob and act like thugs. Thats all.
 

The Military: Huge Mob of Thugs

The SGT wrote:
>Time to grow up children, your in college,
>I think you should be educated enough
>to not mass up in a huge mob and act
>like thugs.

How ironic that you should say that, Sarge.

And Sarge... are you ever going to respond to my previous points?

CAN you respond to my points?

I'm waiting.

PS: Speaking of being educated enough, it's "you're." Nice try, though.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

hello all,
right! fuck the army! yeah!
no more bush shit...
danny.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

When I was a boy there's a dream that I had
That a war if it's fought was for good against bad
And I woke up to find that the world had gone mad
And we'd all fall down


And I feel like a child again sitting observing
You're toying with power, your fingers are burning
You're pushing so hard that the worms won't be turning
We'll all fall down

While you try to pretend you're a god upon high
With your party ideals and your squeaky clean lies
When it comes to the crunch you're no smarter than I

And we'll all fall down

If it's colour or creed or your old time religion
Well fighting for that shows a pure lack of vision
The fight that we strive is the fight to survive
And we'll all fall down


Well look in the mirror and what do you see
An American, Russian, a soldier or me
When you've all pressed the buttons just where will you be
When we all fall down


It gets harder to see just what future's in store for us
Hard to see through all the wool you pull over us
Words that you give are just words to console us
We'll all fall down

And what will you do when you've pulled the release
When the sound of the thunder has drowned out the pleas
Cos after all that was your idea of peace
When we all fall down

No sun for a world that once stood so tall
No wind's going to blow and no rain's going to fall
No flowers for graves, in fact no graves at all
When we all fall down
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Maybe when you punks grow up you'll get a clue. You don't even know who you should be angry with. Send me the pictures where you protested against the terrorists who slaughtered 5000 inocent Americans. Why don't you go to someplace where the general populace appreciates this kind of anti-american crap (like another contry - accept they wouldn't put up with this kind of BS). Glad to see my tax dollars at work being WASTED on unappreciative malcontents - shouldn't you be in class? I'll bet your parents are proud.
 

Just Go Away

Here is some free speech for you.....
STFU.jpg
Oops, too late.
 

Nationalists Can't Make a Point, They Just Grunt

Wow!

You pro-military nationalist America-is-always-right idiots are... well... IDIOTS.

When are any of you actually going to offer forth a point that makes sense? Do any of you read books? (Sorry, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity don't count.)

Can ANY of you respond in a calm, logical manner to the points that I've made? I haven't seen it yet. All we get from your side is a lot of farting and grunting.
 

Farting? Grunting?

Dear work for peace,

I have truly enjoyed the banter that you have propagated throughout this post, it has been most entertaining. I am a bit surprised however that someone as enlightened as you would be goaded into making such a prejudicial comment as ‘all Nationalists are farting, grunting idiots’ (I am paraphrasing, forgive me). I thought such narrow-minded, hateful rhetoric was reserved exclusively for use by the uneducated right-wing…surely you can do better. I am also amused by the irony of your screen name; especially your use of the word ‘work’ – using all lower case letters was a nice touch though.

In order to fulfill your wish of having someone present a counter-argument to the myriad of ‘points’ you have made, I have decided to respond. In the interest of time, however, I will respond only to those points based in fact (we accuse right-wingers of being conspiracy theory mongers all the time – it wouldn’t be fair) and those points devoid of logical fallacies any freshman philosophy student could avoid (i.e.; feelings, distraction from the argument, misinformation, generalization, irrelevant connections, etc.).

OK….hmmmm…….Well, I guess that’s it then.

Gee, I’m not sure what to do with the time I had set aside for this little e-debate. I guess I’ll just have to go back to farting and grunting.

P.S.

I had to have one of my liberal friends help me write this. OK, maybe he is not really my friend so much as someone who feels sorry for me because I am such an idiot.
 

Warmongers Retreat From Debate

Well, well...

I make point after point and nobody on the "other" side offers meaningful response..

"The Vet" says she has responded to _every_ point I've made, but her posts all get removed. Strange, since other pro-military/war folks seem to be able to post comments that remain. Maybe you should try again?

Alternately, GBOT covers her inability to respond to my points with empty barbs that amount to nothing more than total avoidance of the issues raised. In a formal debate, GBOT's reponse would constitute her concession of all the relevant points. I'll interpret it as such here unless serious reply is soon forthcoming... but I'm not holding my breath.

Who knows, maybe the Sarge will reply to my points someday.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

Sorry....I'll respond when I get the time. Just had a new addition to the family and the Army is keeping me busy.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

So what was it folks were saying, that the military never helps people, it takes an event like the ones unfolding in LA to show the value of our young men and women in the service.
 

Military Only as Good as its Commander

Hmmm... interesting point, Sarge.

I wonder how much more effective those troops would've been if they hadn't been in Iraq!

And, of course, the govt/military response in NO hasn't exactly been impressive. (Unless by "impressive" one means to say, "I never realized just how ineptly things could be handled.")

neworleans.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/4683.php

Additionally, while a huge, well-coordinated response is necessary for NO, why does it need to be done by an institution whose primary focus is on attacking and killing? Imagine if we put hundreds of billions of dollars into the maintenance and expansion of critical infrastructure (in the US) rather than tossing that money away on stealth bombers, nuclear weapons, cluster bombs and napalm. Just imagine it.

When it comes to responsibility for this situation, which is now FUBAR, we should focus on the decision makers:

Pentagon: USS Bataan Waited Days For Orders to Help Out
Criticism of the federal government's response is also coming from some unlikely sources including the Pentagon. Lt. Commander Sean Kelly, a Pentagon spokesman for Northern Command, revealed on the BBC that NorthCom was prepared to send in search and rescue helicopters from the USS Bataan almost immediately after the hurricane hit. He said, "We had things ready. The only caveat is: we have to wait until the president authorizes us to do so." That authorization didn't happen for days even though the ship was docked just outside New Orleans. On board the ship had doctors, hospital beds, food and the ability to make up to 100,000 gallons of water a day.

===

PS: Are you ever going to respond to my points, Sarge?
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

I'll get around to it like I said.....to busy to devote any time. By the way, no one uses napalm anymore.
 

Re: PIX: Military Recruiters Off Campus

What is really obscene is the fact that Bush lied to start a war that has ended or ruined thousands of innocent lives. I will proudly continue to say fuck the army, fuck the war and fuck Bush. I've been saying "fuck" a lot since the last election. PEACE NOW!
 

US Used Napalm in Iraq

The SGT wrote:
"By the way, no one uses napalm anymore."

Hmmm, that an interesting claim...

The Independent
August 10, 2003

US Admits It Used Napalm Bombs In Iraq

www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030810-napalm-iraq01.htm

OR SEE

ZNet
April 7, 2003

Irregular Weapons Used Against Iraq

www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm
 

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