Great while your at it why dont you protest all the traffic fatalitys in California every year. Since that number is alot higher. Just look up the numbers up. So protest that as more people die every year in Ca in traffic accedents than In a Sensible and Just WAR!!!! Stop your complaining!!

No demonstrations have been called for any landmarks in numbers of Iraqis killed during the war, but Iraq Body Count says that between 26,600 and 30,000 Iraqis have died. The Cost of War website says that over $203,009,000,000 has been spent on the war. ICasualities, which lists coalition deaths, puts the current total of US deaths at 1997, with 1990 confirmed and 7 pending.

www.iraqbodycount.net

www.costofwar.com

icasualties.org/oif/BY_DOD.aspx

Read more on Indybay's Anti-War News Page

www.indybay.org/archives/archive_by_id.php

www.indybay.org/antiwar

At least people dying in traffic accidents are possibly innocent of wrongdoing. I don't care if soldiers get killed while invading a foreign country. They should get killed, just like any home burglar.

I actually pitty people who believe that there is nothing in this world that is worth sacrificing there life for. For they are hollow and do not realize the freedoms that they take for granted every day. Only somone who has placed there life on the line for freedom and rights can even fathom what they have. I honor and repect my fallen military personel for what they have given. You want change then change it! Local demonstrations do nothing as one can see by looking at the news they dont care what you think or feel they are still prosecuting the WAR on Terror!

To Army Dude:

There are a lot of people who are against the war who would be willing to put their lives on the line, would it do any good. Unfornately, I cannot think of a way to do this without causing more death and destruction.

You claim that folks owe their freedoms to the solidiers who are fighting. What justification can you give for this claim? During all the wars of the last hundred years people's rights have been suppressed more than they were championed, in comparison to times of peace. Have you read about the reasons the soldiers went to war? Do you know that there were no weapons of mass destruction? Did you know that Bush talked of invading Iraq within the first months of his presidency, way before 9-11?

I don't know if you really did serve in Iraq and Afghanistan or not. If you did, it must be hard to face the fact that you did it for an empty (or even illegal) cause. That is a hard truth to face, but let me tell you something. A friend is someone who will tell you the truth, even when it sucks. Yeah, the Bushits will wave their flags on their SUVs and tell you that they support you, but hell will have frozen over before they actually lift a finger to help you or other soldiers. Shit! They even cut benefits to armed forces during this war.

You might not always like feeling like you've been double-crossed by the government that you thought you were working with for the good of the country. Most other folks don't like it either. But that's the truth and that's how we call it. When you are in the company of peaceniks, you are really in the company of friends.

The war on terror is the war against U.S. imperialism. Iraq had nothing to do with September 11th. Their only crime in U.S. imperialism's eyes was using some oil money for healthcare and education. This is a very different situation than with U.S. allies in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia where U.S. and local greed consume all oil profits.

Women’s' rights have deteriorated for women in Iraq since this unprovoked aggression and occupation began.

Studies on the ground in Iraq revealed that the real deaths of Iraqi civilians were probably over 100,000 over a year ago. I don't know why Indy Media keeps promoting these ridiculously low estimates of 30,000. But either way, these are a lot of people to dying for the corporate greed of an invading army.

In addition the numbers of U.S. deaths in Iraq are, according to Cuban academics that have done an extensive study, double what the U.S. military is telling us.

In addition murder and brutal occupation are crimes carried out by the Bush Administration and the Democrats and Republicans who approved the war. Blame for accidental freeway deaths is much more dispersed. Likewise the solution to this problem, bringing the troops home now, is simple.

See Other Press section,

"Death of Sargeant Brings Death Toll to 2,000" - Oct. 25th

2000 Too Many


By Medea Benjamin and Gayle Brandeis

Think back to the end of 1999. Millions of people were afraid of the coming New Year. 2000. Y2K. People were afraid that power would fail, that bombs would be unleashed at random, that chaos would reign in the streets. As it turned out, though, nothing much happened. Midnight struck, the calendar clicked over to a new year, a new decade, a new century, a new (some would say) millennium, and life went on as normal.

Now we have reached another 2000. Iraq 2K. Two thousand of our soldiers killed in Iraq. Our administrative power has failed; bombs are being unleashed, seemingly at random; chaos is reigning in the streets of Iraq and our global relationships have been torn asunder. This is the 2000 we should be afraid of. This is the 2000 we must grieve, honor and reflect upon.

This 2000 wouldn't have happened without the year 2001. Without 9/11. Those numbers gave our president the false justification to begin this war. Some 3000 Americans were killed on the attacks of September 11. Now almost 2/3 that number have been killed in Iraq. And that's not counting soldiers who have died after leaving Iraq, died from horrendous wounds and tormented suicides. It doesn't count soldiers who are left permanently disabled or those who survived in body but not in spirit, the broken souls whose lives have been shattered by what they did and saw.

And of course, that's not counting the uncounted, the Iraqis. We'll never know how many Iraqis have been killed at checkpoints, how many were caught in crossfires, how many were killed by roadside bombs. We'll never know how many Iraqi babies have died because of unclean drinking water from bombed out water systems, how many sick Iraqis died because hospitals were looted of critical equipment, how many Iraqis died because so many doctors have fled the country. Some say tens of thousands; others, like the survey in the medical journal, Lancet, say over 100,000. We don't know; we'll never know.

The Bush administration insists we must "stay the course" to help the Iraqi people. But a national survey conducted in August by an Iraqi university research team for the British Ministry of Defense found 82 percent of Iraqis "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops; less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security, and 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation.

But why should we expect the Bush administration to listen to the Iraqis, when they don't even listen to their own constituents? Since the summer of 2005, polls consistently show that a majority of Americans oppose this war, think it's unwinnable, think it makes us less safe at home and want a timetable for troop withdrawal. How many of our soldiers need to die before our elected officials start listening to us?

The grim milestone of the death of the 2000 th American soldier should be a time for national reflection. As the families of our soldiers know all too well, 2000 is not just a number. These are 2000 human beings we've lost; 2000 people with names, with grieving families; 2000 people with hopes and dreams that will never be realized.

Let's honor them by stopping more soldiers from dying. Let's honor them by giving Iraqis a chance to run their own country. Let's honor them by bringing their buddies home.

Medea Benjamin is the cofounder of CODEPINK: Women for Peace and Global Exchange. Gayle Brandeis, also with CODEPINK, is the author of The Book of Dead Birds, which won the Bellwether Prize for Fiction in Support of a Literature of Social Change

"Join concerned citizens in cities across the US in a public candlelight vigil to mark the loss of the 2,000th US soldier in Iraq."

There are plenty of ways that you can put your life on the line without risking getting killed. It is called constructing a right livelihood. If you spend more of your time working for peace, then that is a good thing.

I'm going to throw a party and celebrate 2,000 dead imperialist storm troopers! Huzzah! May the next 2,000 come even quicker! Arab citizens are putting their lives on the line to defend their sovereignty and homeland security.

I don't mean the minority of wackjob nut cases. America has its random murders and serial killers too, and mad bombers.

Who I mean is the grassroots civilian uprising against fascist imperialist invaders. Long live the resistance! May the fallen be honored for the courage of the sacrifice they have made for the benefit of their countrymen and their descendents.

"I'm going to throw a party and celebrate 2,000 dead imperialist storm troopers! Huzzah! May the next 2,000 come even quicker! Arab citizens are putting their lives on the line to defend their sovereignty and homeland security."

Do you even know who the majority of "freedom fighters" in Iraq are?

On top of that, do you not find it odd that those who fought Saddam are largely peaceful while those who were complicit now seem to be the one's fighting for Iraq's sovereignty?

"n5667" claims, "On top of that, do you not find it odd that those who fought Saddam are largely peaceful."

This is false. Those that fought Saddam Hussein (U.S. and British troops) are continuing their war against Iraqi sovereignty through massacres, torture, and terror.

U.S. Troops Out Now!

Er... kinda missed my point there, Steve - I was referring more to those groups such as the Kurds in the north who were massacred under Saddam's benevolent rule.

As for Iraqi Sovereignty, that's rather impossible without a government and order, and as it stands, Iraq can't seem to do either on its own. Not that I'm at all opposed to pulling out - I'm sure that would be the humanitarian thing to do...

...Exactly what do you envision happening in Iraq if foreign forces were to suddenly pull up stakes and leave?

"I'm going to throw a party and celebrate 2,000 dead imperialist storm troopers! Huzzah! May the next 2,000 come even quicker! "

Thanks for truly sharing what a despicable piece of shit you are.

"n5667" claims, "On top of that, do you not find it odd that those who fought Saddam are largely peaceful."

Ah yes, then there is the CIA supported criminal Chalabi, wanted in Jordan for stealing so much that he bankrupted a major bank:

santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/18862/index.php

A nice red herring, but not relevant to the point I was making - that those fighting against the foreign forces and the Iraqi Government are not freedom fighters, but primarily foreign terrorists and baathists.

Therefore, the idea that the violence will subside with the departure of the U.S seems a little optomistic...

n5667 falsely claims, "Those fighting against the foreign forces and the Iraqi Government are not freedom fighters, but primarily foreign terrorists and baathists [sic]."

The foreign terrorists in Iraq are British and U.S. troops. They are there to loot Iraqi resources and have made life very hard for the Iraqi people. In addition, these foreign terrorists have put in power a religious government that does not respect women's rights as the previous secular did.

As a result of this war life is worse for the average Iraqi and life is worse for the average Amnerican.

As for the CIA man Chalabi, how is it a red herring to look at the criminal that the U.S. government has placed in control of the oil?

We're looting?

Tell me, compared to how much we've spent there, exactly how much have we extracted?

Otherwise this is proving to be a very costly looting.

And Steve, the previous government was not secular, and it didn't respect anyone's rights!

This is Saddam Genocide and Mass Graves Hussein we're speaking of here...

Next I suppose you'll be preaching about all the good things going on in Pyongyang...

n5667 asks incredulously, "We're looting? Tell me, compared to how much we've spent there, exactly how much have we extracted?"

We have extracted nothing. Yet I never said WE are looting. It is Dick Chaney's Halliburton and other U.S. based companies that are doing the looting.

In addition WE are also being looted by the arms industry that is pillaging our national treasury for the profits of war.

But no, WE, the people not of the capitalist class, WE are looting nothing. We are being looted while our sons and daughters are sent off by the looting capitalists to kill and die for their obscene profits.

You want to contend that there hasn't been any looting because the amount that the US has spent hasn't been equal to what we've gotten out of it?

Nick, it looks like we might actually agree on something. I AGREE that the United States hasn't gotten as much out of Iraq as it has put into Iraq --- yet. However, some people have been making a killing profiting off of the war effort. When Iraqi oil union leaders came to the United States this June (www.uslaboragainstwar.org/) they reported that they were exporting oil at a significant rate, but the Iraqi people weren't seeing a dime from that and they didn't know where it was going.

Is it just a coincidence that our brave leaders claim that oil exports in Iraq are down but the oil companies they own are accumulating hefty profits?

Besides this kind of "looting" going on, there has been widespread looting of the artifacts of Iraq, known once as Babylon and considered the cradle of civilization. US and British troops have made no secret about taking artifacts as if they were entitled to them. I know this is difficult for you to understand, but those things are PRICELESS.

And what about the destruction of homes, buildings and civil systems? What about the "looting" that will occur in the form of rebuilding for the benefit of companies like Halliburton and Bechtel.

What about the future looting that will happen once the fourteen permanent US military bases are built in Iraq if the Bush Cabal has it's way?

How stupid do you think people are, Nick?

This is vigil for all people concerned about this war and the toll it is taking on the people affected by it. Your status as a citizen is unimportant. I hope all people feel welcome to this event.

Thanks for pointing this out.

"As a result of this war life is worse for the average Iraqi and life is worse for the average Amnerican."

I think not.

My previou post seems to have disapeared, so let's se if it'll stick around this time...

To Steve, we are looting Iraq - to date, how much money have we made?

And I wonder, the prior government treated women better than the current one? The prior government was the one that engaged in genocide and was run by a cruel dictator with two crazy sons, is that the one that treated women fairly and with respect (when they weren't raping and killing them, that is).

You say we are looting the resources, how much oil have we looted?

"Is it just a coincidence that our brave leaders claim that oil exports in Iraq are down but the oil companies they own are accumulating hefty profits?"

They're claiming hefty profits because the price of oil is up because demand is outstripping supply on a global level.

"Nick, it looks like we might actually agree on something. I AGREE that the United States hasn't gotten as much out of Iraq as it has put into Iraq --- yet. However, some people have been making a killing profiting off of the war effort."

There we are, so people in government wage this war so the companies they're involved with can have higher profits. I would say that is a stretch, but there's no evidence either way that this is the case, only speculation.

"Besides this kind of "looting" going on, there has been widespread looting of the artifacts of Iraq, known once as Babylon and considered the cradle of civilization. US and British troops have made no secret about taking artifacts as if they were entitled to them. I know this is difficult for you to understand, but those things are PRICELESS."

They only got the left overs, most of the looting of these priceless artifacts occured during the first days of the war when public order broke down - so don't worry, the Iraqis have their own priceless artifacts!

"And what about the destruction of homes, buildings and civil systems? What about the "looting" that will occur in the form of rebuilding for the benefit of companies like Halliburton and Bechtel."

There are over 1000 reconstruction projects underway right now - however you won't get an argument from me that it would be faster, better, and cheaper to higher local Iraqi businesses rather than U.S corporations to do the job.

Such as the looting in Germany? The U.S has permanent military bases all around the world and for the most part the local governments love it! Why? MONEY! Those rich American military personnel are a boon to the local economy.

"How stupid do you think people are, Nick?"

Hopefully not so stupid as to think that if the U.S and U.K pulled out of Iraq, it would magically transform into the garden of Eden... ;)

by n5667
> To Steve, we are looting Iraq - to date, how much money have we made?

Looting at a loss is still looting - it's just bad looting, same as running a business at a loss is still business, just bad business.

America steals Iraq's oil and sells it to help pay American war contractors like Haliburton and Boeing.

America spends money only on American construction and security companies, refusing to employ Iraqis.

America is looting Iraq to defray the costs of colonizing it, and creating new enemies to justify the destruction of civil rights and freedom here at home.

> The prior government was the one that engaged in genocide

No it didn't. The attempted civil war in the north of Iraq was drawn along racial Kurd boundaries BY THE KURDS. They made it racial, not Saddam.

Anyway, people like you claim the resistance is full of foreign fighters from Iran and Syria. Yet when the Kurds attempted seccession they were backed by Iranian fighters during the Iran-Iraq war. So it wasn't just Kurds that Saddam attacked with poison gas, it was Iranians too. Therefore it wasn't genocide, it was civil war with outside intervention.

What will you blame Saddam for next, the Black Plague? AIDS? World War II?

> You say we are looting the resources, how much oil have we looted?

Every drop that has been sold since the US invasion began, where the US has dictated where the profits would be spent (on "US re-construction costs" and "US security costs", all conveniently lining the wallets of US corporations).

Which includes US law enforcement personnel, collecting phat paychecks like $90k salaries TAX FREE over there.

Fucking pigs. There may even be some Santa Cruz pigs joining in the looting of Iraq. I know several Texas highway patrol pigs are making $90k right now.

I wonder what would have happened to our proud tradition of claiming that every war is like the revolutionary war and how great this is if the following had happened instead of what actually did:

1) The French did not intervene in the final moments of the 1776 rev war and the British put down the rebellion.

2) In 1812 the French invaded and occupied New England on the pretext that the British Colony posed an expansionist threat to the Louisiana Terriritory and the Canadian Provinces. Of course, they claimed initially that they were "liberating" New England, but in the end the new country called Canada extended from Toronto to Miami Florida and West to the Rocky Mountains.

There are of course parallels between this scenario and what actually happened in Iraq: The Kurd rebellion was not given air support when it was promissed and the US finally did invade on a pretext, later changed to a war of "liberation".

did this say 5pm was the start time, yesterday? I made a note of it and no one was there.

Anyway, we know that much of the world had monarchies in China/Europe, or was under colonial rule in the 1800s, but it is key to realize that when much of the world switched to beginning democracies in the 1930s-60s, the US interfered and assassinated leaders or had the CIA or small military interventions to institute their own ruler.

Saddam Hussein was on the CIA payroll. Look it up! The US picked him out because they were worried that the country was too socialist. This practice is what needs to stop immediately, and never should have happened, because it leads to blowback the majority of the time.
Most of us might be aware of the most egregious examples of this, such as the installation of the shah in Iran which led to such a backlash in 1979, but there is such a long list of countries where this has occurred. I didn't realize until I saw the movie Z that US operatives helped with political assassinations in Greece and installation of a dictatorship in the 70s. How many american tourists are going there and have no clue about this, and imagine that Greece has always been a long term stable country.
We helped out in the dictatorships in Brazil, Chile, Haiti, Philippines, Congo, Liberia, etc. and helped fund the wrong side in violent interventions in Angola, Lebanon, Iran/Iraq war, Cuba, Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia, Afghanistan (see rambo), not to mention the whole cold war with Russia and the east bloc and Korea.

"cp" makes good points, but I will point out that WE didn't support those dictatorships, it was the U.S. government and U.S. corporations that did. The U.S. government is not us, it does not represent us, it represents hostile corporate interests.

Likewise, as I pointed out to Nick n5667, but he saw necessary to ask again so I will respond again:

Nick n5667 asks incredulously, "We're looting? Tell me, compared to how much we've spent there, exactly how much have we extracted?"

We have extracted nothing. Yet I never said WE are looting. It is Dick Chaney's Halliburton and other U.S. based companies that are doing the looting.

In addition WE are also being looted by the arms industry that is pillaging our national treasury for the profits of war.

But no, WE, the people not of the capitalist class, WE are looting nothing. We are being looted while our sons and daughters are sent off by the looting capitalists to kill and die for their obscene profits.

IN OTHER WORDS: THE CORPORATIONS PROFITTING OFF OF THE WAR IN IRAQ ARE NOT SPENDING THEIR OWN MONEY, THEY ARE SPENDING OURS. THEY ARE LOOSING NOTHING!

"Saddam Hussein was on the CIA payroll. Look it up! The US picked him out because they were worried that the country was too socialist. This practice is what needs to stop immediately, and never should have happened, because it leads to blowback the majority of the time. "

I think Bush is a horrible president, as are most Republican/Democrats... However, I support the war because we started it, and Iraq simply isn't capable of fixing it on their own right now.

Nick claims, "The people vote in the government."

This is not true. Electoral fraud put Bush in power in the last two elections.

Likewise a president that did not fully represent the military industrial complex, John F. Kennedy, was taken out of power by the CIA in a murderous coup. Bobby Kennedy was killed for similar reasons, and they'd try to kill Jesse Jackson just the same today if he was serious about running.

Attempts at organizing alternatives to the corporate power of the Democrat and Republican Parties have also been met with extreme government repression. The Black Panther Party was physically annihilated and the U.S. government murdered 40 members.

The U.S. government also tried using all kinds of repression to stop the movement against the Vietnam war, including the shooting of protesters in the back at Kent State in May 1970, but that repression ultimately backfired with 8 million students out on strike and almost an entire generation turned against the war.

The U.S. government murdered 3,000,000 Vietnamese and 50,000 U.S. soldiers in its war of aggression in Vietnam. We, the people, did not carry out those crimes, the U.S. government did. WE, the people, ultimately put an end to that brutal war through a movement in the streets.

Yet the same government remains in power carrying out a new imperialist war against Iraqi people. It will take more than elections to end this war and remove the criminals from power. That will take a revolution.

Steven Argue, for Liberation News
lists.riseup.net/www/info/liberation_news

"This is not true. Electoral fraud put Bush in power in the last two elections.

Likewise a president that did not fully represent the military industrial complex, John F. Kennedy, was taken out of power by the CIA in a murderous coup. Bobby Kennedy was killed for similar reasons, and they'd try to kill Jesse Jackson just the same today if he was serious about running."

Wow, thats pretty out there. I would love to see you back it up.
Steven is a perfect example of why the left is lost in America.

"This is not true. Electoral fraud put Bush in power in the last two elections."

Indeed?.. I suppose he didn't get a majority of the votes in the last election either?..

I think the problem is, Steve - that most Americans find your views quite extreme - and there are many more Americans who support Bush than share your views.

Oscar, perhaps the following links will help you discover what is really going on:

050517/ The Dynamics of the JFK and RFK Assassinations
Ralph Shoenman
radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim050517.mp3
radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim050517.m3u

051011/ A Farewell to Justice: Jim Garrison, JFK's Assassination,
and the Case That Should Have Changed History
Three hour special program.
Where to buy the book: Joan Mellen's website
radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim051011-1.mp3
radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim051011-1.m3u
radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim051011-2.mp3
radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim051011-2.m3u
radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim051011-3.mp3
radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim051011-3.m3u

Bush Regime Maintains Power Through Electoral Fraud
santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/12684/index.php

Nick says, "There are many more Americans who support Bush than share your [Steven Argue's] views.

Oh really? Here is a very recent poll (released October 25) where 75 percent opposed the war in Iraq.

www.mddailyrecord.com/pub/5_402_wednesday/businessnews/173009-1.html

A poll taken in Maryland is hardily indicative of the entire nation... regardless, I wasn't referring to the war in Iraq - but rather to the election, sorry if I was too vague.

You really are going to have to do better than post some left wing radio segments.

Oscar says, "You really are going to have to do better than post some left wing radio segments."

Actually I posted a few things. I posted an article I wrote documenting how the
Republicans stole the election. That was written right after the election and even more proof of electoral fraud has accumulated since. Yet there is plenty in that article to show you that this was not a free and fair election.

In addition I posted the radio show of Ralph Shoenman. Ralph Shoenman participated in the investigation of the assassination of Kennedy.

Oscar, you asked me to back up my claims, and I did. Oscar, it seems that you will disapprove of anything I say, but at least check out my evidence before you dismiss them, it would make you look a little smarter.

this isn't rocket science.

for hundreds of years, the Sunnis have been used to running things with an iron fist. they've dominated by fear and murder and unspeakable torture and skimmed the goodies off the top for themselves.

now they are losing power, so they are treaking out and fighting dirty - real dirty - to keep their mafia-like setup intact.

hell, they're even blowing up other members of islam in their own churches.

none of this has a damn thing to do with Iraq's sovereignty. thsi has do do with a bunch of thugs who've been busted hard. their kingpin - Saddam - got nabbed, so they're scrambling deperately to keep their foothold.

the US is trying to create a climate where normal rank-and-file citizens can conduct their day-to-day lives in peace and freedom.

I realize i am probalby stirring up this hotbed of pathologically leftist hornets, but sorry, charlies: reality is reality. deal with it.

With regard to discussion of warfare (and other subjects), Steven Argue is hopelessly inflexible. You'll never get him to change. He wants homeless sleeping on the street, and will never concede that this might be not be the best idea.

Those he wants on the city council are unelectable. why is this?

He cannot conceive (or will not concede) that there could be any shred of good in any war he decides to oppose. At the same time, perhaps not surprisingly, his protests are often sound war-like. Why is this?

I think the guy's probably, deep-down, at least to some extent, sour grapes and jealous of those who have made it in society.

It should be said that soem aspects of his knee-jerk defense of all that is fringe and anti-government might sometimes be valid. But, I will guarantee you, he is not coming from deliberationa nd wisdom, but from just a knee-jerk mindset. Do not count on him for a fair hearing. Do not count on him to deeply contemplate both sides of a situation. He is hard-wired to blindly throw darts on behalf of an anti-government agenda, and if one of those darts actually do some good, that doesn't mean that what he is doing is wisdom-guided. Be very surprised if he gives a balanced viewpoint. You will have found a four-leafed clover if you hear him say, "but on the other hand, at least in some ways, what the government is doing is good and wise." Never will he do this.

Don't expect an accurate picture form Steven Argue.

Take him not with a grain of salt, but with a rock of salt.

but don't listen to me. Let him speak for himself

links to Steven argue info:

Steven Argue on Homeless Activists Running for City Council

Steven whips up support for Iraq, Palestine, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, and US getting out of the Philippines.

Steven also thinks it's great that bus drivers making as much as $70k a year left handicapped and minimum wage people, some commuting from as far away as Boulder Creek and Davenport, out on the curb with no warning. He likes to think the bus drivers were forced to do this. (Several links are in this website, under "Labor and Economics")

Regarding the bus strike, you will NEVER hear Steven Argue say, "But on the other hand, I can see where there might be some validity to what Metro is doing."

The anonymous rightist advocate for war claims the Iraqis are, "treaking [sic] out and fighting dirty - real dirty..."

The radiation the U.S. has scattered all over Iraq with DU weapons is not exactly clean. DU is a weapon of mass destruction that should be banned. Nor is the U.S. morally clean with tactics of putting fear into the people through shooting unarmed protesters, torturing prisoners, rounding up innocents for torture in the night, and indiscriminant murder in populated centers of resistance such as Fallujah.

You claim that this resistance is not about sovereignty, but for the Iraqi people this is exactly what this about. Americans have short memories and many of them still probably can't find Iraq on a map, but the Iraqi people remember how the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein when the U.S. government thought it was useful. When the Ba'ath Party first came to power the CIA gave them a list of 5,000 leftists and union leaders that the Ba'ath Party subsequently executed. These executions helped pave Saddam Hussein’s path to power. Iraqis also remember how the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein in the 1980’s in his wars against both Iran and the Kurdish people. They also remember how the U.S. government starved Iraq through sanctions for much of the last 15 years.

In addition the Iraqis can see how the U.S. has been unable to rebuild most of the infrastructure such as water and electricity and can see that they did much better rebuilding under Iraqi rule after the U.S. war on Iraq in the 1990’s. They can see their country being looted by companies like Halliburton. In addition Iraqis can see their industries have been destroyed by the U.S. imposition of free trade policies that have flooded Iraqi markets with cheap goods made in China that Iraqi industry cannot compete with.

For women in Iraq they can see that the current U.S. imposition of an Islamic puppet government that does not recognize women’s rights means an end to the rights that they enjoyed in the past.

The reasons for resistance to U.S. imperialism in Iraq are varied and very deeply ingrained through the decades of suffering the U.S. has imposed on the people of Iraq. Opposition to U.S. control includes people of all religions and national groups. It is time the U.S. stop doing more damage to the people of Iraq. U.S. out now!

Steven, the problem with the info you posted is that it is exactly what i expected to see you post. If you would have brought forth some documents that were at least remotley middle of the road, I would have been more likely to agree with you. But using just some left wing outlets to support a rather large conspiracy theory is not gonna cut it for anyone but UCSC students.

Oscar, it is no surprise to me that a pro-war right-winger like you does not like my sources, but I will assure you that they are superior to yours. You have said that I am wrong, but you have made no attempt to prove your assertions. Oscar, why don't you try to back up your claims? And Oscar, it will take more than just trying to dismiss my good evidence as being leftist.

Since it is you who comes here to mouth off every conspiracy theory on the planet, I would say the burden of proof is in your court.
As for the Kennedy assassination, I would recommend this book to dispell your many 'out there' arguments.
Jfk Myths: A Scientific Investigation Of The Kennedy Assassination by Larry M. Sturdivan

I'm not coming off with any conspiracy theories; I'm talking about conspiracy facts. If you want to believe the lone gunman theory (impossible) and that bullets can defy the laws of physics (also impossible) I guess you are one of the fools that the Warren Commission Report was written for, but back here in reality there are plenty of people who aren't so gullible. Jim Garrison and Ralph Schoenman are two of the reliable people that investigated Kennedy's assassination. Their work was the factual basis of Oliver Stone's movie JFK.

If you don’t want to listen to the facts presented on Ralph Schoenman’s radio show, perhaps you may feel like renting Oliver Stone’s movie. The movie is quite accurate.

On sources Oscar seems to think that that the Sentinel, a rightwing corporate newspaper that endorsed Bush, is a leftwing paper. In fact he stated in a different thread that, "I can think of countless topics over the years that the Sentinel has taken a hard left on." With this kind of strange outlook on the world it would seem that any source besides Joseph Goebbels’ Der Angriff (The Assault) is leftist in Oscar’s poor deluded mind.

I'm not coming off with any conspiracy theories; I'm talking about conspiracy facts. If you want to believe the lone gunman theory (impossible) and that bullets can defy the laws of physics (also impossible) I guess you are one of the fools that the Warren Commission Report was written for, but back here in reality there are plenty of people who aren't so gullible. Jim Garrison and Ralph Schoenman are two of the reliable people that investigated Kennedy's assassination. Their work was the factual basis of Oliver Stone's movie JFK.

If you don’t want to listen to the facts presented on Ralph Schoenman’s radio show, perhaps you may feel like renting Oliver Stone’s movie. The movie is quite accurate.

On sources Oscar seems to think that that the Sentinel, a rightwing corporate newspaper that endorsed Bush, is a leftwing paper. In fact he stated in a different thread that, "I can think of countless topics over the years that the Sentinel has taken a hard left on." With this kind of strange outlook on the world it would seem that any source besides Joseph Goebbels’ Der Angriff (The Assault) is leftist in Oscar’s poor deluded mind.

"If you don’t want to listen to the facts presented on Ralph Schoenman’s radio show, perhaps you may feel like renting Oliver Stone’s movie. The movie is quite accurate."

Oliver Stone’s film was hardly factual. In fact, even amongst JFK conspiracy theorists I have not heard someone make that argument. Great movie, but hardly a good work of history. I know it is hard for some people to believe that a normal guy could end up killing the most powerful man in the world, but that’s how it is. Not every act on this planet is part of a cosmic struggle. I think that is the inherent problem with conspiracy theories. They assume that there must be some sinister reason why bad things happen, that is often not the case. The Warren Commission Report is hardly my bases for denying your JFK conspiracy theory. For every book you post in favor of conspiracy, I can post disproving.

And it seems to me that Steve thinks that any outlet that does not support his crazy conspiracy theories is a right wing fascist news source. If you really think that everyone who voted for Bush is a right wing fanatic than you need to get out of Santa Cruz one of these days and join the real world.

Just because you think the Sentinel is a right wing news source, does not make it a reality buddy.

The great thing is, your ideas are their own worst enemies. Its like arguing with folks about Evolution. Creationists can bring forth all kinds of works defending their ideas, but in the end, it stands opposed to the overwhelming facts. So keep up the good work!

Oscar says, "The Warren Commission Report is hardly my bases for denying your JFK conspiracy theory."

OK Oscar, if you don't accept the official government version (i.e. cover-up) contained in the Warren Commission Report, whose investigation do you base your lone gunman theory on?

I base my information on the careful investigations of the evidence carried out by Jim Garrison and Ralph Schoenman. As I stated earlier those investigations were the basis of Oliver Stone’s historically accurate movie. The fact that Oscar has never heard anyone say that the movie is accurate does not change the facts. While the movie does take some minor artistic license by having a secret Washington source explain the motive of the conspiracy for the audience, the movie does lay out the evidence in the assassination of Kennedy as well as the character assassination carried out against Jim Garrison.

While Oscar may find the lone gunman theory comforting, it has nothing to with any of the evidence.

On Oscar’s defense of the pro-Bush Sentinel he now says, "Just because you think the Sentinel is a right wing news source, does not make it a reality buddy."

Of course Oscar right on this. Likewise my knowledge of the Earth revolving around the sun does not make that so either.

"On Oscar’s defense of the pro-Bush Sentinel he now says, "Just because you think the Sentinel is a right wing news source, does not make it a reality buddy."

Of course Oscar right on this. Likewise my knowledge of the Earth revolving around the sun does not make that so either."

It's a matter of perspective, Steve's opinions are so extreme that a socialist is probably a centrist, a democrat a right winger, and a republican an extremist! ahhhh! :D

I must agree with Nick, I do see Republicans as war mongering rightwing extremists. Likewise any paper like the Sentinel that has backed Bush's pro-war lies is not a reliable source.

"I must agree with Nick, I do see Republicans as war mongering rightwing extremists. Likewise any paper like the Sentinel that has backed Bush's pro-war lies is not a reliable source."

Then I guess we will just have to leave it at that.... what is a reliable source then?