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The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

On October 29, 2005, Activists, including the Watsonville Brown Berets, disrupt rally organized by Minutemen on the steps of the capital in Sacramento.
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On October 29, 2005, about one hundred Minutemen, a racist vigilante group, staged a rally on the steps of the State Capitol in Sacramento in order to gain support for an initiative that would create a state police force specifically responsible for enforcing federal immigration law. More than one thousand organizers, immigrant rights groups, students and families staged a spirited and emotionally energized counter protest on the length of the sidewalk in front of the Capitol steps where the Vigilantes held their program. Protecting the vigilante group were various police agencies, including the CHP and Sacramento police, who stood between the dissenting factions. Protesters carried signs demanding an end to terrorism on immigrants and that no human is illegal. Several politicians, including Peter Camejo,Green Party candidate, addressed the crowd of protesters and denounced the proposed measure and the Minutemen. The police, utilizing excessivly brutal force, arrested one demonstrator for standing on the street. Arnold Schwarzenegger has publicly supported the Minutemen. Jim Gilchrist, a founder of the Minutemen and the Save Our State Initiative, is planning on a run for Congress in 2006.

Photos by Gabriel Romo
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No human is Illegal!!
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Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

Great photos.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

Attempting to link racism to the subject of immigration is a fairly crude tactic - but one I won't oppose because it only serves to damage your position and standing.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

there were actually 4 arrests (if not more). 2 were released, one is pending release (resisting arrest), and one santa cruz resident is still in jail on two felony counts.
 

To n5567 Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

To n5667: borders are meaningless. This part of the US - occupied Mexico - has only been part of the US for just over 150 years, while the indigenous people of the Americas have lived here as long as anyone can remember. As the picture above says: who's the illegal alien, here? And the Minutemen not racist? Come on...
 

radio, san diego, san francisco, indymedia.us, delete_the_border, iheartgilchrist, organic_collective, anarchist action

antifa.jpg
Listen to the phone reports from Sacramento here:
radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7501.php

The No Border Movement Goes to Sacramento
sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/10/111596.shtml

SF-IMC: Anti-Racist Groups Hold Counter-Protest Opposing Minuteman Rally at Capitol
sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/1721346.php

Indymedia.us anti-racism page
indymedia.us/en/topic/antiracism/archive.shtml

deleteTheBorder.org
iheartgilchrist.com
organiccollective.org
anarchistaction.org
* austin.indymedia.org/feature/display/21842/index.php
 

No soy illegal!

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We Did Not Cross the Borders, the Border Crossed Us!

We do no recognize your borders, the earth belongs to everyone and no one!
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

May 9, 2005 Vigilante assault on Mexican immigrants kills one A USA masked vigilante with an assault rifle and military fatigues attacked a group of 18 Mexican immigrants on the border near Columbus, New Mexico yesterday. According to a report today by the Attorney General of Chihuahua, Patricia Gonzalez, one or more armed vigilantes, from the US side of the border, stopped a vehicle carrying 18 Mexican immigrants attempting to cross the border near the "Palomas, Chihuahua/Columbus, New Mexico" port of entry. The vigilante in a ski mask forcefully stopped their car and ordered the immigrants out of the vehicle and then proceeded to shoot the driver point blank, killing Apolinar Ortega Sanchez. The murderer who spoke in "broken Spanish" then ran to a vehicle waiting for him and raced to the USA side of the border according to the survivors. Attorney General Patricia Gonzalez is investigating the possibility that the assault was part of the Minutemen operations that took place along the Mexico/Arizona border and that are now moving westward.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

The shootings of two Mexican citizens, one who said he saw a laser dot on his body before he was shot inside the united $tates, has still gone uninvestigated by u.$. authorities, possibly in an attempt to cover up a so-called international incident that might draw the righteous anger of the Latin American peoples and oppressed-nation peoples inside u.$. borders.(4) The nonlethal shootings happened within a few miles of the VFW Post that the California Minutemen were using as a base. The comprador Mexican government, a lackey of u.$. imperialism, is trying to portray the shootings as an internal affair, but Minuteman James Chase himself has attributed the shootings to "rogue" border vigilantes.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

My prehistoric ancestor beat your prehistoric ancestor, so it's really my land! What we fail to take into consideration that if the US had not have won "occupied Mexico" as you call it, would it be that much better of a place? We'd still be in the same catch-22. The Mexican government isn't stepping up to solve their own social problems, but passing on the problems to us. I realize that many of those coming over are working toward a better life, but we can not keep giving social welfare to these people. It doesn't solve anything, change needs to be inspired in Mexico. Giving them money does not solve their problems. Stereotyping people against immigration as racist KKK members is like saying "only gay people spread diseases." Give me a break... Both arguments are propagated by hate-mongers who have little knowledge of the other side.
 

Mainstream news article on MM protest

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- Dueling demonstrations over a plan to create state border police drew nearly 1,000 people to the Capitol on Saturday, and about two dozen police officers, some on horseback, stood between the rival gatherings to maintain order.

Authorities reported three arrests during the two-hour standoff, which illustrated California's growing divide over how best to secure its border with Mexico.

A proposed ballot initiative by Assemblyman Ray Haynes, R-Murrieta, to create a state immigration police force was the reason for the rallies, but the role that volunteer citizen patrols known as "Minutemen" play on the Mexico-U.S. border also prompted debate.

READ THE FULL ARTICLE ON SC-IMC's OTHERPRESS
santacruz.indymedia.org/mod/otherpress/display/649
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

To Jay Nonviolent Protester: The Mexican government, occupied the area called California, for maybe 37 years. The US government has many properties in use, in this and other states. Don't expect an easy transition to Aztlan, in the near or distant future. Mexico will suffer from a war, and the border as we know it will be shifted south.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

Mi mas sincero reconocimiento a todos y cada uno de los hereos que se enfrentaron a esos ilegales llamados "Minutenmen", es un orgullo para nuestra raza que personas como ustedes hagan valer nuetro legado historico y nuestro derecho.
En nombre de Guerrero Azteca por la Paz, les agradesco de corazon su esfuerzo tan significativo y valeroso, a los muchachos de mi ciudad hermana Watsonville, gracias, muchas gracias y reciban mi cariño.
Paz y justicia hoy y siempre!!!
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

It was great to see all the kids in face scarves and bad dancers making a specatacle of themselves. Who is to blame for the condition of those illegally entering our country? Primarily Vicente Fox and his corrupt government. You should protest in Mexico - protest the cruel governnments south of the border - not American citizens assembling peacefully.
 

To minutewomen

We do not particularly care for that government (Vicente Fox, the coca cola guy) or your government, it is all part of amrikkkan imperialism. We respect humanity, being human, being treated with dignity and respect. We don't give a damn about your borders. The Earth (Tonantzin) belongs to all humans. Humans and animals migrated across your borders thousands of years before your country was built and they will continue to migrate even after your system falls...
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

The real racists in this foray are the members of "la raza" - "for the race (Mexican) everything, for everyone else nothing.
First of all, in response to the outrageous sign which states "who's the illegal alien here" and to the comments from some posters echoing this sentiment, as a United States native American Indian I would like to set the record straight. Mexican indios are not indigenous to any USA lands, and have never been. Mexicans are of Spanish-European and Mexican indio heritage, and those Mexican indios are indigenous to the lands SOUTH of the US-Mex border not north of it. There have never been any native indian tribes living on any land which is now the USA which were ever "Mexican", "Spanish", "hispanic", "latino", "aztec", "mayan", "toltec", "chicano", "cholo", "vato". or "homie". So you can stop with your "this land was ours" garbage. The land of the Mexican was, is, and will be the Mexico which is south of the border, if you are ashamed of that it is your problem. That your people did make enough of your homeland to be proud of is your problem. You can make as many signs as you want and yell and rant all you want, but it will not alter the reality that you are not United States Native American tribal Indians, and you will never become such. You are Mexican indios, and most of you are of mixed Euro-Spanish heritage.

Secondly, any person who enters the United States to live without immigrating legally IS an illegal alien or illegal immigrant, as defined by United States law, and this IS the United States of America, USA law is OUR law, if you don't like it go back to your homeland.

It is a CRIME to enter the US illegally.
It is a CRIME to live in the USA if you are here illegally.
It is a CRIME to work in the USA if you are an illegal immigrant.
It is a CRIME to lie about your immigration status, this includes applying for any type of suppliment (WIC, HUD, food stamps, medical care, after school program, free lunch school program etc....), enrolling in school or enrolling your children in school, renting an apartment or house buying a vehicle, filling out an employment application, filling out any forms to obttain medical care, etc....
It is a CRIME for any employer in the United States to hire any illegal alien for any job at any time.
It is a CRIME for any person in the United States to work without a legal social security number.
It is a FELONY to use a stolen (made up, bought or "borrowed") social security number, or to obtain a social security number by use of false identification, and the penalty for this felony is 25 year in federal prison and a $250,000 fine.
It is a CRIME to use false identification anywhere in the USA at any time.
It is a CRIME to transport any illegal immigrant anywhere in the USA at any time.
It is a CRIME to provide shelter to any illegal immigrant at any time ( this includes renting an apartment or home to an illegal alien or letting an illegal alien sleep on your floor or in your garage for even one night).
It is a CRIME to aid and abet any illegal alien at any time.
Why should illegal immigrants be treated any different than legal immigrants and United States citiznes? You want to live in the USA? Then you are subject to our laws. When US citizens and legal immigrants violate our laws they are arrested, charged with the crimes they have commited and jailed and fined, in the case of foreign nationals who have violated federal immigration laws, those illegal immigrant criminals are deported.
ALL illegal immigrants are criminals, they have no respect for United States law, they have no respect for the citizens of this nation, they have proven by entering the US illegally that they are dishonest with no morals and no respect for the law, therefore they deserve no respect. They deserve only to be returned to their respective homelands.

Lastly, to use the term "racist" in defining the Minutemen is a misnomer, illegal immigrants come from every nation on this earth.
It is rather, those who support a "guest-worker program" for ONLY Mexicans who are racist.
It is those who say "for la raza everything, for everyone else nothing" who are racists.
It is rather, those who say that the USA "belongs" to their "raza" because once long ago their nation claimed they "owned" this land for a few unimportant years who are the racists. Is it lack of education or blind ignorance that they omit the FACT that this land was the land of US Native American Indians who were NEVER "Mexican", and that the European nations of Spain, France, and England all claimed they "owned" this land before Mexico and for more years.
SHAME ON YOU who hide your face behind masks to make a public display of your lack of knowledge and YOUR racism.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

Hola! ~ I was there that great day to see the youth standing up for humane rights.

We must oppose the resurgence of blatant neo-Nazi racism wherever it rises as we seek unity among all peoples regardless of race. Unity in our day to day personal lives, not just at rallies. Unity within ourselves as we change for the better having been raised in a sick racist society.

At the same time, we must fight back against the growing Amerikan Fascism officially headed by Fuhrer Bush, yet knowing that corporate capitalism is the root manipulator.

Let us not relapse into the blatant racism of the 40's, 50's and 60's. Let us move onward!
Venceremos Unidos!
~~Peta de Sacra
sacranative{at}yahoo.com
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

NAFTA is clearly what triggered so many rural mexicans to lose their livelihood, and have to flee to cities or across the border in order to earn the basics of living, such as food and shelter. The rationale for accepting the collapse of rural agriculture due to cheaper subsidized corn from Iowa flooding the Mexican market is that the consumer would 'enjoy' the more efficiently produced and cheaper food - however... prices at the supermarket haven't come down. Everyone knows that the price of the corn syrup in soda-pop is about 4 cents, while the can costs 60 cents. The profit is all taken by the company and put into the stock market, rather than passed on to the consumer, meanwhile there is unmeasured human misery by millions of displaced farmers, and taxes that working class people have to pay for meager healthcare and policing of them
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

It doesn't matter who was here 200 years ago, the borders as they exist now are what matter.

And even many hispanics who live here in the U.S agree that illegal immigration is bad.

It has nothing to do with race but the negative effects from illegal immigrants in the form of decreased wages, job opportunities, unpaid taxes, decrease of social services, etc... The United States and its tax paying citizens can't and shouldn't have to be responsible for everyone.
 

Press Release on Arrrests at Minuteman Rally Saturday

Saturday, October 29, 2005

Media Contacts: Cres Vellucci 916.996.9170 or Scott/BACFTM 510.295.8843

Three arrested Saturday at Capitol protest against ‘racist' Minuteman border vigilante project

SACRAMENTO – Three people were arrested Saturday at an anti Minuteman rally at the State Capitol, and two were treated for injuries after hundreds of demonstrators protested the vigilante border patrol group "Minuteman Project."

A breakdown on the arrests, as of 4:55 p.m. Saturday: Joshua Ramirez, 19, Santa Cruz, being held in Sacramento County jail on $30,000 bail on charges of battery on a police officer, resisting an order of a police officer, both felonies. He has a Tuesday court date.

Robert Levine, 21, San Francisco, due to be released on his own recognizance later Saturday, pending misdemeanor charges of resisting arrest and battery. He also has a Tuesday court date.

Carlos Murillo, 19, Daly City, released on his own recognizance Saturday following his arrest on an infraction of pedestrian in a roadway, and a misdemeanor, resisting arrest. Unknown court date.

Both Levine and Murillo were treated for injuries suffered in their arrests. Supporters and other observers reported that those arrested were falsely arrested, and then abused by police officers.

www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/1779473.php
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

To Sequoia:

1. There is no way you are indian.

2. You need to work on your indian role.

3. We are already here. We have been here and migrating for thousands of years.

4. Human migration is human nature.

5. Fuck governmental laws and decrees.

6. Fuck you too.
 

To Sequoia

First of all, there is no way that you are native american!, on that note thanks for the list of "illegal activities" in this country... and also don't u think that then eating the vegestable and fruits that are picked by "illegal immigrants" should be illegal too?...think about that the next time that you eat...remeber that the fruits and vegestables, that this country and many other parts of the world, are the product of long hours of work by LA RAZA! and that it is their work that sustains the U.S. Economy.... and i am apalled to hear someone of supposed "native american descent"...place themsleves on the side of the people who came into this land and almost destroyed your poeple.... the poeple that took their land and put your ancestors through inimaginable pain....You see if you really were native american you would know better than that.. you would know what it is like to have your gente discriminated against by foreigners to your land, for them to tell you that your way of life is wrong and to make many generations of your gente feel ashamed of their cultura.... but you wouldn't know would you.... stop pretending and have some respect for those that are native american and dont make a bad name for them... have some guts and say who you are.... or are you ashamed?....
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

5. Fuck governmental laws and decrees.

6. Fuck you too.

The solution is not flooding the united states and turning it into a third world country, the solution is to fix those third world countries, why not try focusing on the real problem - corrupt and insecure government in the Americas?

The only why the U.S can provide all these illegal immigrants so much is because our citizens pay taxes, that in turn provide services - without these taxes there are no services. Without good jobs that aren't depressed by illegal labor there is no money to pay those taxes.

Those government laws you say fuck you to are the ones that have allowed the people of America to become so well off!

We need these laws to protect workers. The more we allow companies to employ illegal immigrants, the more lax we are, the worse things will get until no Mexican will bother coming to the U.S because it'll be no different.

I think you need to learn a little bit more about the situation, and just why illegal immigration is so dangerous, but I will re-iterate it for you...

illegal immigrants operate outside the law, when employers can have employees outside the law that does nothing but hurt everyone.

But hey, why not make them legal? Because if that happens, the market will be flooded with far more labor than there is demand currently, that too will hurt workers.

So no, it's not about race, it's about conserving the quality of life we enjoy in America. You want to ultimately improve the lives of illegal immigrants (and their families still back home?) then focus on the real problems.

Illegal immigration is the symptom of a problem that does not reside in the U.S
 

TO Godkillaa and Maria -FYI

In response to Maria and Godkillaa:
Your posts define the perimeters of your ignorance.

We United States Native American Indians do not appreciate "la raza"s attempt to rewrite the history of this nation, erasing the existance of our Native American tribal heritage and attempting to replace it with some fictious "aztlan" nonsense.

We US Native American Indians respect whatever pride you have in your Mexican (indio) heritage and in your hispanic (european) heritage. I would not ASSUME that you are not what you are, since I know nothing about you, and that, of course, would be abject ignorance.

We USA Native Ameircan Indians do NOT support uncontolled illegal immigration and we do NOT support open borders, we do NOT support any organization which attempts to undermine this nation (OUR nation) through anarchy, and we never will.

It takes a person of small mind to respond to another person with "Fuck you", as if that has some relevance in any exchange of information, Godkillaa. Pretty pathetic.

That either of you ASSUME you know more about my ethnic heritage than I do is laughable. Yes, I am full blood United States Native American Indian, and yes, I am proud of it.
This land, which is the United States was the land of my ancestors prior to the arrival of ALL Europeans, and that includes your Spanish-European ancestors.

That you assume no US citizen would have food to eat without illegal immigrants is a joke. Every job in this country was done before this recent 20 year influx of millions of illegal aliens, and every job in this nation would be done if it were stopped and all illegal aliens deported.

LA RAZA is a racist organization, that is undeniable, take care when you call others "racist" when you identify with racists yourself.

You are sorely lacking in basic US history education if you are unaware of the fact that it was the hispanic Spanish/Europeans who invaded our southwestern US Native Indian tribal homelands, who enslaved, raped, infected with disease, tortured and murdered our ancestors. Should we US Native American Indians hold every Spanish speaking person accountable for what your ancestors did to ours hundreds of years ago?
It was the Mexican indios who trespassed on our tribal homelands in the US southwest, to steal, rape and kill. In fact the Apache did a better job at keeping Mexicans in their own lands than the present day border patrol does. Lets get the Apache to protect our borders, I guarantee you there will be fewer illegal aliens getting in.

I know more about the history of our once more than 400 US American Native Indian tribes than either of you will ever know, first of all because I have been taught by my tribe all of my life, second because it is my lifes work, and third because neither of you ARE US NA Indian and neither of you care enough about us to learn anything about us.

To Godkillaa, if you don't think law is important to maintain civility you are truely uneducated. All societies have laws, from the most primitive to the most advanced.
If you think you would fare better in a land with no laws I challenge you to find one, and go live there, see how long you last.

I know exactly what it is to be discriminated against, my family has lived with discrimination all of our lives.
I had an uncle who had his tongue cut out for talking to a white girl when he was 16 years old, do I blame ALL white people? NO, I am not a racist.
I had a cousin who was raped and murdered by two hispanics, do i blame all hispanic people? NO, I am not a racist.
My husband was attacked, pistol whipped and robbed by a Black man once, do I blame all Black people? NO, I am not a racist.

Maria and Godkillaa, you both need to take a good hard look at where you are coming from, learn something about this nation you live in, whether you were born here, or came here from the homeland of your ancestors.

And lastly... to you Maria, you write to me :
"...stop pretending and have respect for those that are native american..."
and I can say the same to you, STOP PRETENDING TO BE USA NATIVE AMERICAN Maria, and HAVE RESPECT FOR THOSE THAT ARE NATIVE AMERICAN...you have shown no respect for me, and I AM ONE.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

I get the chills and become full of anger at the sight of one of our own on the ground being arrested. Yet I am proud to say he is one of ours and we are in our right minds to protest against these ignorant minutemen.....viva la raza!!
 

Trade agreements, border patrols, and militias: A death sentence for displaced migrants

 

In the Spirit of Crazy Horse, In the Spirit of Zapata

Migration is a characteristic of humans and animals. Nothing is ever static. Everything shifts with time. The concept of borders or private property was foreign to Native people. To us, attempting to own land was as abstract as attempting to own the air or sun. Native people on both sides of your artificial border have always engaged in exchange of traditions and culture. Ancient paths, such as El Camino Real, connected Native people from North and South to East and West. Native Peoples from the North borrowed many traditions from the South such as ceremonies and agricultural techniques (maize was a introduced by the Maya to the Anasazi). Native people on both sides of your artificial border are one nation. Your artificial policies and lines of demarcation will soon fade, just like empires before you. Words from assimilationist, xenophobic minutemen, and neo-conservatives mean nothing. Resistance will continue. Those who fear terrorism should look at their current government who is dismantling the constitution as you read these lines. No human is illegal, what is illegal is your concept of humanity.
 

to "Sequioa"

B.I.A goons, scouts, and anti-traditionalist were full blooded "Indian" too. Your claims to being "Native American" do not mean anything if you do not understand our connection to the Earth and humanity. The very concept of the Four Directions is the center of our understanding, something you need to discover in yourself. All my relations!
 

To the Anonymous Poster

Actually, your ancestors did not beat anyone, it was more the disease they carried on thier bodies. According to Jared Diamond, "No medieval force, no matter how bloodthirsty, could have achieved such enormous levels of genocide. Instead, Europeans were aided by a deadly secret weapon they weren't even aware they were carrying: Smallpox." You were lucky that time. Now are bodies are resistant, just like our hearts and mind!
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"Your artificial policies and lines of demarcation will soon fade, just like empires before you. Words from assimilationist, xenophobic minutemen, and neo-conservatives mean nothing. Resistance will continue."

Sure, sure, except the empires before us were all expansionist, the United States is hardly expanding its physical boundries - I'd love to see those lines disapear - but I doubt anyone in a first world country will be keen to see that happen until the rest of the world has gotten its act together.

Though, you should look into how Mexico handles it's southern borders, quite interesting - maybe if we followed suit there'd be a drop in illegal immigration.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"No human is illegal, what is illegal is your concept of humanity. "

I do not understand this statement that I see thrown around a lot.
What I do understand is that it costs money to have illegal migrants use public services. I am down to have folks come here to work and become citizens, but I have no clue what these folks are demanding other than throwing around a lot of rhetoric and 5 dollar words. If you have a better plan for how to deal with illegal migration than put it forth. But to simply argue that we should have no boarder is ridiculous and not a damn person is gonna buy it. So are we looking at a guest worker program? Full amnesty? What are these people realistically demanding?
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

Concerning the Minutemen, there is no doubt that there are neo-Nazis and racists in their ranks. But does that make the entire argument for stronger boarder security worthless? I think not. Does that mean just because there are racists, extreme communists, and vagrants involved in the anti-war movement that their argument is rubbish? I think not.

There is going to be extremists in every social movement, it is better to discuss the issue rather than discuss the participants.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

Look at the people with their faces covered! there is only one reason for that and it is to do crime!!!

Why are the only protests allowed are the ones that the liberal people want? Why are all others are racist?
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

n5667: "Illegal immigration is the symptom of a problem that does not reside in the U.S."

This sort of argument is even dumber than your more common refrain of "you represent extremist views and the majority of people do not agree with you" (attempting to preclude any rational discussion of what someone is actually saying). Do you think the United States exists in a vacuum?
You may think that child labor or poor working conditions are a problem in poor countries, whereas in the US many children are lucky enough to learn how to be a boss and get rich. And certainly it is more pleasant to learn such things than work 60 hours a week in a sweatshop, but the problem (for the working class and for your idiotic capitalist ideology) is that one implies the other. Especially in this age of neo-liberalism and globalization, it is incredibly untenable to claim that the problem resides elswhere. Capitalism produces poverty just as surely as it produces wealth. You know this. But since you side with the wealthy and powerful against the working class, you claim that WE must protect OUR wealth, hoping that workers (and I am not saying this is an unsuccessful tactic) will identify with the interests of the nation-state (i.e. those of the capitalist class) in which they reside and not with their social class. This forces you to obscure the reality of a global capitalism, and the reality of a global resistance to capitalism. And whenever you notice any anti-capitalist resistance in the news, it scares and puzzles you. It makes little sense within the narrow logic of nationalism and wage-labor. You denounce extremists and their idiocy, their impracticality, their childishness, etc. The rest of the world, to you, represents this childishness. It needs to "get its act together." You are incapable of understanding capitalism and resistance to it, because you look at everyone as a citizen, a taxpayer, a voter, a political opin ion. We are people also, exploited people who daily experience a reality of alienation, conflict, and class struggle. And this is what shapes the world you live in. Not political opinions. And this is the world some of us (i.e. in Sacramento) are resisting. But you cannot understand being against law and order, it is utterly impracticle within capitalism (the only reality). And reality cannot change except through piecemeal "realistic" reforms. Right? Actually you are quite wrong in this (obviously). It is no wonder that you cannot fathom the concept of a common humanity. You want no part in such a project and will continue to be on the side of the nation, the borders, the cops, and capitalism, things which you will try endlessly to separate from one another in people's minds, especially when their interrelation is extremely apparent.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

What is wrong with you people?
A recent study shows that the ones who lose their jobs first to illegal immigrants (and those most adversely affected by illegal immigration) is 1st generation USA-born hispanics. Why don't you care about Mexican-Americans who are born in this country? Are you all illegal immigrants or what?

Here is something for all of you silly protesters to think about, if you care to learn something.

Analysis of the latest Census data indicates that California's illegal immigrant population is costing the state's taxpayers more than $10.5 billion per year for education, medical care and incarceration. Even if the estimated tax contributions of illegal immigrant workers are subtracted, net outlays still amount to nearly $9 billion per year. The annual fiscal burden from those three areas of state expenditures amounts to about $1,183 per household headed by a native-born resident.

This analysis looks specifically at the costs to the state for education, health care and incarceration resulting from illegal immigration. These three are the largest cost areas. Other studies have been conducted in the interim, showing trends that support the conclusions of this report.

As this report will note, other significant costs associated with illegal immigration exist and should be taken into account by federal and state officials. But, even without accounting for all of the numerous areas in which costs associated with illegal immigration are being incurred by California taxpayers, the programs analyzed in this study indicate that the burden is substantial and that the costs are rapidly increasing.

The more than $10.1 billion in costs incurred by California taxpayers is composed of outlays in the following areas:

Education. Based on estimates of the illegal immigrant population in California and documented costs of K-12 schooling, Californians spend approximately $7.7 billion annually on education for illegal immigrant children and for their U.S.-born siblings. Nearly 15 percent of the K-12 public school students in California are children of illegal aliens.


Health care. Uncompensated medical outlays for health care provided to the state's illegal alien population amount to about $1.4 billion a year.

Incarceration. The cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in California's prisons and jails amounts to about $1.4 billion a year (not including related law enforcement and judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes that led to their incarceration).
State and local taxes paid by the unauthorized immigrant population go toward offsetting these costs, but they do not come near to matching the expenses. The total of such payments can generously be estimated at about $1.2 billion per year.

The fiscal costs of illegal immigration do not end with these three major cost areas. The total costs of illegal immigration to the state's taxpayers would be considerably higher if other cost areas such as special English instruction, school feeding programs, or welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal alien workers were added into the equation. (Right now the largest number of California residents newly applying for welfare are hispanic citizens who are losing their jobs to illegal immigrants)

Californians, including those of us of Mexican heritage, should not be expected to assume this already large and growing burden from illegal immigration simply because businesses or other special interests benefit from being able to employ lower cost workers.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"This sort of argument is even dumber than your more common refrain of "you represent extremist views and the majority of people do not agree with you" (attempting to preclude any rational discussion of what someone is actually saying)."

I believe I used that as a logical reason why perhaps property destruction/vandalism isn't a great thing. And it was only a single aspect of my argument - Congratulations on taking something out of context, joey!

"it is incredibly untenable to claim that the problem resides elswhere. Capitalism produces poverty just as surely as it produces wealth. You know this."

It only does if it's allowed to. The citizens of Mexico have to take action to fix their problems. I'm not entirely clear on how opening the borders completely between the United States and Mexico will result in a properly functioning economy and government in Mexico.

" (for the working class and for your idiotic capitalist ideology)"

My idiotic capitalist ideology is responsible for unparralled material wealth and technological achievement. Try comparing it to communism that can gloat that it did it's part to control population growth by culling the human heard to the tune of 100 million people.

But I'm all ears, what system do you propose that is superior to capitalism?

And not to sound rude - but can you try to organize your post so it's not one large glob of sentences?

Anywho, have to run...
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

It was a great rally in Sac. on the 29th. The counter-protestors - many of whom were masked - totally failed to stop the Minuteman rally because the CHP wouldn't let them. Not content to be HEARD via their chanting and bullhorns the counter-protestors tried to march into the MM group several times only to be stopped. Anyone who watched the scene would have no trouble knowing which group was likley to perpetrate violence.

The counter-protestors are like the Chinese government that puts people in re-education camps for voicing 'wrong thinking'. That's because their only beef with the MM is their political stance. 99.99% of the talk of the MM harassing illegal immigrants is bogus. The MM just watch the border and 'drop a dime' on the illegals. So you see the only complaint the protestors really have is the MM 'wrong thinking' and 'wrong speech'. They (the counter-protestors) are the real fascists.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

I am glad that a good number of folks are forcing to deal with the boarder problem. I don't know the answer, but I do know that the left has dominated this topic for too long.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"My idiotic capitalist ideology is responsible for unparralled material wealth and technological achievement. Try comparing it to communism that can gloat that it did it's part to control population growth by culling the human heard to the tune of 100 million people.

But I'm all ears, what system do you propose that is superior to capitalism?"

I think n5667 is right. If you are going to say that capitalism is the cause of all pain and suffering, then you really need to show a system that works on such a large scale and works as well.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

n5667: "I believe I used that as a logical reason why perhaps property destruction/vandalism isn't a great thing. And it was only a single aspect of my argument - Congratulations on taking something out of context, joey!"

I think this illustrates one of the points I want to make quite well. My claim is that moderate liberal and conservative ideology seeks to obscure class antagonism by positing a "public interest" or "common good" as some objective measure of whether something is positive or negative.

So, for someone who wants to play this game (politics), you have to claim to represent the public interest. Now, someone who does not want to play this game (someone who takes direct action) does not seek the same support for their action, but probably sees the benefit in the target destroyed or in whatever positive ideas others may take out of the action.

Now, applying some of what I said to your other comments, it is clear that what you praise as capitalism's material wealth and technological development is not seen by everyone as the same absolute good, if only because a small percentage of people control most of that material wealth.

So, some will sing their praises to the accumulating wealth, and others have to go on strike and fight for it, steal it to survive, and in revolutionary situations, expropriate it from those who accumulate it based on the value they (as a class) produce.

So, based on the things I have said, it is clear that not much discussion on this is possible. You will appeal to politics and public opinion, I will appeal to the revolutionary potential of the exploited. And since this only exists as a potential, as a movement toward equal access to resources and an end to money, wage-labor, and commodity production, it is not a system and will produce no "system" in the sense of a state or government.

For me to explain how such a "system" (and I put this in quotes because I do not see any sort of liberated humanity as a system or state) might work and then counterpose it to capitalism so that we could debate the virtues of the various "systems" would be ridiculous, if only because we are looking for completely different things. And also because any post-capitalist society will only come into existence through struggle and not through my utopian blueprints.

And as for "communism" being represented by the states where a "Communist Party" came to power, I would only ask that you accept that I would never make such a connection. The former Soviet Union or Cuba represents no alternative to the world of wage-labor and commodity production, and this is why many communists consider such states to be capitalist. Just as fascism represented the capitalist need for a powerful militarized state after the defeat of revolutionary movements in Italy and Germany, state socialism merely represents a strategy for the development of capitalism by a ruling bureaucracy.

The Bolsheviks, for example, proved their counter-revolutionary character through the destruction of worker's self-management as represented by the factory committees and soviets, their killing and imprisonment of anarchist workers, their fight against the Makhnovist anarcho-communist peasant movement, and their fight against the rebelling workers of Krondstadt.

I do not defend or apologize for this legacy (you are used to arguing with idiots like Steve Argue who do), but rather defend the legacy of worker's councils and proletarian struggle outside and against the unions and political parties who seek to manage one or another form of capitalism.

Capitalism is not the cause of all pain and suffering. And it is incredibly adaptable, and works well for some. But it also MUST do this through war, dispossession, destruction of the earth, and MOST obviously, the production of wealth and poverty.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

Stick to the facts please.
If you want to call someone a racist or a child molester or a felon or a gangster or a dodgerfan, then you should back up your statement with facts and not suposition.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"So, for someone who wants to play this game (politics), you have to claim to represent the public interest. Now, someone who does not want to play this game (someone who takes direct action) does not seek the same support for their action, but probably sees the benefit in the target destroyed or in whatever positive ideas others may take out of the action."

What do you mean by direct action? Considering what statement of mine you are rebutting, I assume it is circumventing the laws of society through physical actions (be it against person or property). But if your side can utilize it, so too can the other side, and rather than progress or at least compromise you merely get destruction. At least, that's what I'm gleaning from the comment, perhaps you can clarify.

"So, some will sing their praises to the accumulating wealth, and others have to go on strike and fight for it, steal it to survive, and in revolutionary situations, expropriate it from those who accumulate it based on the value they (as a class) produce."

Yes they will, but let's be honest, most Americans have obtained a wonderful existance, I don't know about you, but living in a society where are greatest risks come from excess and hedonism isn't so horrible. Certainly there are grave problems that need to be dealt with, indeed the division of wealth is unfair, but put up next to anything else history has witnessed, it is a wonderful life... Even if you are the poor and down trodden forced to watch their cable on a 32" T.V rather than a 70" widescreen.

"I do not defend or apologize for this legacy (you are used to arguing with idiots like Steve Argue who do), but rather defend the legacy of worker's councils and proletarian struggle outside and against the unions and political parties who seek to manage one or another form of capitalism."

I didn't mean to imply you supported communism, I was using it as the obvious example that considering all known alternatives, capitalism is ideal - or at least, our hybrid state of capitalism mixed with socialism-lite is.

But humor me, tell me, what this...not state, but existance would be? Surely you're not suggesting we "destroy our current system in favor of something that must be superior, but I have no idea what it is..."

"Capitalism is not the cause of all pain and suffering. And it is incredibly adaptable, and works well for some. But it also MUST do this through war, dispossession, destruction of the earth, and MOST obviously, the production of wealth and poverty."

In the past
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

Gilchrist, 56, is a member of the American Independent Party founded by
former Alabama Gov. George Wallace. But he urges voters not to read anything
into that. He says he's no bigot.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"Gilchrist, 56, is a member of the American Independent Party founded by
former Alabama Gov. George Wallace. But he urges voters not to read anything
into that. He says he's no bigot."

Ok, again I don't think it matters who the leader is. The boarder security issue is bigger than a few right wing folks. If your best argument against boarder security is that there are some racists involved with the movement, your going to lose the fight.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"Gilchrist, 56, is a member of the American Independent Party founded by
former Alabama Gov. George Wallace. But he urges voters not to read anything
into that. He says he's no bigot."

Is that the same George Wallace who recanted his racism and went on to become an advocate for equality?
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

I can't believe that people really care about what happens to people who come into this country illegally. Those people who complain should go to Mexico and start their advocasy there. I know why they don't..... The Mexcian government won't put up with their crap!
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

Charlie Fuentes says, "Those people who complain should go to Mexico and start their advocasy [sic] there. I know why they don't..... The Mexcian [sic] government won't put up with their crap!"

It is worth noting, however, that the Mexican government kills leftists with weapons supplied by the United States.

Personally I have gone to Mexico where I participated in revolutionary campaigns. As an internationalist I oppose both the U.S. and Mexican governments. But telling people to go to Mexico to try to bring change ignores the fact that U.S. imperialism through unfair trade, military aid, and military intervention is the single biggest problem for the people of the entire world, including Mexico.
 

well put, steve

I agree with Steve here. Be sure to check out an article written by Jen Lawhorne called

Trade agreements, border patrols, and militias: A death sentence for displaced migrants
santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/18896/index.php
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

whoa, did the SOS/American Patrol messageboard flood this website?

looky here Billy Bob, Billy Ray, and Billy Goat, stop your bickering and stop making up stupid excuses like:

"Is that the same George Wallace who recanted his racism and went on to become an advocate for equality?"

and..

"Ok, again I don't think it matters who the leader is."

idiots. human migration is human nature and you will not stop it. ever.

some more facts about the MM=KKK are that in Sacramento, members of the National Alliance were passing around their propaghanda without being harassed. I wonder what would have happened if a Brown Beret member would have been doing the same thing. actually, I do know, they would have been kicked out. TRUST ME. I was there. IT HAPPENED.

also, it has been reported...by the conservative Mexican media, I might add, that people have been recently shooting across the border to the Mexican side in the areas of Arizona and Texas. this was not heard of before.

the MM, along with anyone who supports them, are racists and are classists. since you can't freely say the word "nigger" anymore without getting your ass mopped, your new focus are "wetbacks" who are mostly poor, working-class people, and who are mostly dark-skinned (you don't see any white-complected Mexicans crossing the border).

so, in conclusion, fuck you. all of you. i hope you never eat another burrito in your life. (heheh)
 

Ties between the American Independent Party, the John Birch Society, and the National Alliance.

American Independent Party is a United States American political party. The party was established in 1968 by Alabama governor George Wallace. The party was opposed to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and opposed to federal government welfare programs. In 1972, the party nominated former Congressman John G. Schmitz of California for president. John G. Scmtitz, like many other members of the American Independent Party, were members of the John Birch Society. The John Birch Society (JBS) is an ultra-conservative organization that was founded in 1958. Some Birch members also helped organized the "Minutemen," a paramilitary group training to lead guerrilla warfare in case of a "Communist" take over. (The current Minutemen project is an off shot of the John Birch Society's version).

The National Alliance

The group was founded in 1974 by William Pierce, a former physics professor and author of the book, The Turner Diaries: (under the pseudonym Andrew MacDonald) a novel about "white revolution" in America. The National Alliance was reorganized from an earlier group: the National Youth Alliance (NYA). The NYA was formed out of the remains of Gov. George Wallace's 1968 presidential campaign organization Youth for Wallace. The NYA broke into factions as a result of infighting. Pierce gained control of the largest remnant in 1970 and continued the organization under that name until its reorganization in 1974.

Pierce previously had been an associate of the assassinated leader of the American Nazi Party, George Lincoln Rockwell.

Pierce died of cancer July 23, 2002, and was succeeded as National Chairman by Erich Gliebe. In April of 2005 following his termination as editor of National Vanguard Magazine, Kevin Alfred Strom and a small faction of the unit coordinators and members of the Executive Committee issued a declaration calling for Gliebe to step down. Gliebe refused, claiming that the National Alliance operates under a so-called "Leadership Principle" and that he would not yield to any coup. Strom then formed a new group called National Vanguard. Shortly thereafter, Gliebe resigned as National Chairman of the Alliance stating that he needed more time to spend with his family. Gliebe appointed Shaun Walker as his successor.

The National Alliance is strongly anti-Semitic. The group claims that Jews exert a negative influence at nearly every level of American society. The National Alliance has long claimed that Jews control both the news and entertainment media in America.

After the September 11, 2001 attacks, the National Alliance claimed that these attacks were caused by the U.S.'s support of Israel. The National Alliance also claims that Israel's Mossad launched the 2001 anthrax attacks in order to set up the US invasion of Iraq: a longtime enemy of Israel. In the article "The Anthrax Mystery: Solved" [1]which appeared in the March-April 2004 issue of the National Vanguard, it suggests Israel's Mossad--using the cover of Israeli Art Students--learned of the September 11 plot in advance and did little or nothing to inform the American authorities. Also prior to the September 11 attack, the article describes a series of anthrax hoax scares claimed to have been perpetrated by Mossad agents in order to implicate Dr. Steven Hatfill, and set him up as the "fall guy" for a future anthrax attack. The article further claims the Mossad issued a warning via instant message service (Odigo warning) to Jews near the World Trade Center hours before the attack.
 

CROSSING THE LINE: DOCUMENTARY PUTS THE MINUTEMEN SQUARELY IN THE WHITE POWER CIRCLES

If anyone were to still try to tell us that the Minuteklan Project was not a racist group, we might have to slap that person around just on the principle (figuratively speaking). If they do still think they are fooling people, this DVD is not helping matters much. There's this guy from LA now living in Utah named Byron Jost, who produced a documentary called The Line in the Sand. Basically it is the Triumph of the Will for the Minuteklan Project, and we are not pushing the envelope when we say that. It not only prominently features the two Minuteklan founders Chris Simcox and Jim Gilchrist, but also three well-known white supremacists giving commentary as well.

Since the group’s inception earlier this year, the Minuteman Project has tried to paint itself as a non-racist organization, emphatically denying any association with racist activists. This denial always seems to come with a wink and a nod as it become more and more apparent that this is not the case. There is Joe McCrutchen, a Minuteman from Arkansas who is a member of the Council of Conservative Citizens, and whose reports from working with the Minutemen would appear on the website of Billy Roper’s group, White Revolution. There is anti-Hispanic activist Glenn Spencer of Voices of Citizens Together (VCT), who has spoken at many Council of Conservative Citizens events. There are the two National Alliance members that the Southern Poverty Law Center found working with the Minutemen. There is also John Clark from Florida, a member of two hate groups, California Citizens for Immigration Reform (CCIR) and the American Immigration Control Foundation (AICF), who was a keynote speaker at a meeting in Bridgewater, NJ on June 25. California saw neo-Nazis demonstrating openly with the Minutemen, complete with swastika flags. Minutemen leaders in Texas resign because of the rampant racism that no one would do anything about.

If the Minutemen thought that even with all of this they will somehow beat the charge of being a racist crowd, along comes something that might suggest otherwise. Touted as the first and only feature-length documentary about the Minuteman Project, The Line in the Sand is a DVD recently produced by Byron Jost, an independent filmmaker from Torrey, Utah with ties to the white supremacist Vanguard News Network (VNN). Featured prominently in the documentary are Gilchrist, his fellow Minuteman Project founder Chris Simcox and anti-immigrant congressman Tom Tancredo along with Glenn Spencer, VNN webmaster Alex Linder and Dr. Kevin MacDonald, a Professor of Psychology at California State University-Long Beach who has claimed Jews are responsible for a "breeding program" to conquer other "races." In the documentary Dr. MacDonald has a rather lengthy segment where he blames the Jews for the current immigration situation.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"so, in conclusion, fuck you. all of you. i hope you never eat another burrito in your life."

Wow, with an argument like that, no wonder your side is losing the argument in the realm of public opinion.
 

To Oscar G.

Who is taking score, you? We'll see on next election day when you're Nazi buddy Gilchrist goes home in defeat.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"Who is taking score, you? We'll see on next election day when you're Nazi buddy Gilchrist goes home in defeat."

Like I have said a few times, I am not a fan of Gilchrist or a number of folks in the MM project. What all of you don't seem to get is that a large portion of of the population is tired of our mess of a boarder policy. You think that just because a few right wingers are involved with the MM that it discounts the entire point of the operation?
 

Responce to Oscar G.

Oscar G.
What you don’t seem to realize is that ignorant amerikkkans like yourself blame everything that is wrong with this country on the poor, immigrants, minorities, gays, etc. instead of analyzing the effects of mass consumerism, capitalism, amerikkkan interference with foreign government (such as with the Sandinistas Nicaragua, FMLN in El Salvador, Venezuela, and the rest of Latin America), and international trade agreements. Take for example, during the Sandinista revolution; Nicaragua had the highest literacy rate and lowest infant mortality rate. After the United States destroyed the Sandinistas, due to its hysteria of communism, it is the poorest of all Latin American countries. The same goes for El Salvador. Now when the poor of that country come to the USA after this country destroyed their government and instilled a dictatorship, they are vilified as gang members and MS13ers. You're government is responsible for most of the disasters in Latin America. If it were not for Humanitarian organizations around the world, the Mexican Government along with the aid of the United States would have destroyed the indigenous struggle of Autonomy in Chiapas Mexico. I would suggest you open a book or take a course on the history of amerikkan interference in Latin America, pendejo.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

"What you don’t seem to realize is that ignorant amerikkkans like yourself blame everything that is wrong with this country on the poor, immigrants, minorities, gays, etc."

This is a fine example of how not to sound intelligent.
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

chinga tu madre n5667
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

" I would suggest you open a book or take a course on the history of amerikkan interference in Latin America, pendejo."

I think you need to open a few books yourself. And not that it makes a differance concerning this topic, but I am a Mexican American. So don't start mouthing off about how you are some rep for an entire group of people buddy.
 

Mural of Action against the Minutemen

This mural was the design of Gabriel Romo of Sol Collective.
Click on image for a larger version

sol.JPG
Mural of Action by the people against Minuteklan in Sacramento, October 29, 2005.
 

Mural of Action against the Minutemen in Sacramento

Click on image for a larger version

sol-cultura.jpg
*
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

That is an incredible mural! I'm completely amazed and inspired. Thanks for sharing it.

-paz y justica!
 

Re: The People Confront Racist Minutemen in Sacramento

to Sequioa

your comments about la raza are off the subject. Still you struck a note with me. whether you are NA or not doesn't really matter . if you were really taught by you tribe all your life then you know you learned many good things . but you also learned some terrible things. i've experienced discrimination before by other INDIGENOUS americans. and i figured out why. you mentioned we mexicans committed crimes against your people.

i know what you're talking about.

500 + years ago our indian peoples met the spanish. you know some of what happened. just like the american holocaust our indians were forced to become colonized. that doesn't mean we ALL became mestizos/half breeds. WE got our mexican last names out of being slaves and being forced to baptize ourselves. but one thing that most NA and our own RAZA don't know is "MEXICAN"INDIANS DID INVADE "NA" INDIANS. What i mean is Mayans and other indians were forced into the spanish army or their families would be killed. so they signed up and were sent to aztlan to fight. kinda like the "NA"'s on both sides of the american revolution or the NA scouts in the army. What the "Native Americans" were not mestizos but other indians. The spanish govenrment like the american and british used indians to fight indians. but the spanish governments had hostages to make their indians fight. Your Grandfathers would only remember the spanish uniforms though and since they probably didn't speak mayan or nahuatl wouldn't know this .

remember Native Americans were just beginning to suffer. Native MEXICAN AMERICANS were already suffering for 300 years. but we did something different. We went underground so oneday we could rise again.

You mentioned Aztlan. Aztlan is our native language. In english it's just the southwest.which means california , arizona, texas, nevada, even utah. That shouldn't bother you. we were here before the borders and were nomadic ChiCHImecas.(some of us) we traveled south and mixed with other indians there. Then when the spanish came we migrated back mixing with the surrounding southwestern tribes.

So many of us "aztecs" are also apache, navajo, shoshone, chumash, hopi, tarhumara, huichol, etc.

just cause two european govt's want to fight out THEIR own borders doesn't mean we as NAITVES have to believe in their borders. SOme of us were nomadic and will continue to migrate forever.

As far as being full blood or not . That doesn't matter. But just to let you know we are not all mixed. We as raza were being forced to forget our identities as natives. many bagan to believe they were not natives. so just because you may know a mexican who says they are not indian doesn't make it true.It was just better to tell the kids they are spanish so they wouldn't get killed.

And that whole thing about being full blooded came after world war 2 . the nazis came up with blood quantum. after WW2 , the german scientists were brought to america to work in u.s. companys and research and govt. Before that we natives didn't really care to much about blood quantum.

these nazi americans get us to fight about being at least an eigth of indian blood so they don't have to honor any treaties. Now if you want to know what treaty was signed with mexicans, if the word mexicans still matters to you check out the treaty of guadalupe. They broke that one too.

Raza just means race. what race? of the four races we are red. but sometimes we like to say brown. don't trip on our word selection.

any way this is all off the subject off minutemen.

isn't it?

redmankoykoy (at) yahoo.com

if you wanna talk history -to keep this site on the subject
 

RE: Coyotl

It's clear from your response you are not US Native American tribal indian (we do NOT call ourselves "redman", if you knew the history of that term you would not use it, proof enough that you are a liar), and judging from the content of your post you are simply another hispanic/latino/meztiso/Mexican indio/Mexican, Central American or South American who has indigenous roots in Mexico, Central or South America, lives now in the USA, and has chewed up enough of the MEChA lies and raza garbage, choked on it and knows nothing what-so-ever about the true history of this continent.
The aztec NEVER lived north of the current US/Mexico border, and anyone with any sense knows that "aztlan" is not a "language" as you profess, but it is, as confirmed by leaders of the MEChA organization (which created "aztlan" on a California college campus in 1969- well documented), exactly what they stated, in the public media, that "aztlan is an IMAGINARY place, created to give chicanos (first generation born US citizens of Mexican heritage) a sense of belonging", that they "never intended chicanos or any Mexicans to actually BELIEVE that aztlan ever existed", it is, in fact a fairy tale, it should be prefaced with "once upon a time", and anyone who believes that any such place as "aztlan" existed on USA soil is uneducated and a fool.
The premise that the aztec were distant "cousins" of the Ute tribe (which I assume is where you got your reference to 'aztlan" being a "language") is based on a theory (opinion) by one WHITE MAN named Wissler, a linguist from the US northwest who executed his "study" on the language of the native tribal indians of the North American continent in the early 1900s, without ever traveling to the US southwest himself. At the time Wissler wrote his thesis (which unfortunately has been grasped on and touted as FACT, although unproven) the tribes of the US southwest had been decimated, the Spanish had invaded from Europe, brought Mexican indios and meztiso into the lands of the US native indian tribes, and the languages of the tribes had been slurried, just as the language of English has been altered by the addition of German, French, Irish, Italian and Spanish speaking peoples in this nation. Wisslers theory (opinon) is seriously flawed.
In any case the Aztec would be nothing more than distant cousins of the Ute, at best.
There was never any massive "aztec" empire anywhere on what is the USA today, if so remnants and archeological remains would be present, neither of which exist.
If anything the aztec, if related to the Ute, are in fact distant counsins of the great Ute tribe, and are the very people whose tale is an old Ute story handed down for generations.

The story goes like this:
Two families of the tribe (Ute) were discovered to be killing their own people (murderng Utes) and shared eating the flesh (cannibalizing). This was forbidden in the Ute, the famiies were driven away in shame, they fled to the south, stones rained on their heads. They were never seen nor heard of again.
It's quite possible that the "aztec" were in reality those cannibalistic Ute who ran all the way to central Mexico to continue murdering and eating their own flesh and blood.
You certainly know the story, if you are, as you say, US native American tribal indian.
 

Can I use photos?

Does anyone know how to get in touch with the photographer, Gabriel Romo? Our band (pictured above), the Brass Liberation Orchestra, would like to ask his permission to use some of these photos on our website, www.brassliberation.org

If Gabriel, IMC editors, or anyone else can give me a lead, please email me at jeffsotheraddress (at) hotmail.com
Thank you. --jeff g (BLO)
 

Can I use photos?

Does anyone know how to get in touch with the photographer, Gabriel Romo? Our band (pictured above), the Brass Liberation Orchestra, would like to ask his permission to use some of these photos on our website, www.brassliberation.org

If Gabriel, IMC editors, or anyone else can give me a lead, please email me at jeffsotheraddress (at) hotmail.com
Thank you. --jeff g (BLO)
 

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