Correction: for name the village that is written about above is actually called Bi'liin and the incident happened the day before on 11-14-05 George was reporting from Qawawis. sorry for the error.

Qawawis and the mustawtaneen

thismuchicansayistrue.blogspot.com/2005/08/qawawis-and-mustawtaneen.html

While the ISM sponsored demonstatins in Bi'lin are always billed as non-violent, most include some kind of civil disobedience. George reported on a sit-in in which a vehicle was blocked by people sitting in the road.

While this is an accepted form of civil disobedience and involves no violence, it will entail arrests, percussion grenades, and tear gas.

In actions where the fence is cut or pushed over, where people penetrate into the closed security area, or commit vandalism, these cannot be called "nonviolent" demonstrations.

Demonstrators who get shot by rubber bullets, were undoubtedly engaged in the secondary type of demonstration, so an IDF violent response is provoked.

Failing to mention the underlying cause for the IDF action is a form of deceit.

The 'underlying cause' you speak of is called land theft.

The underlying cause for the IDF making arrests are usually:

1. evidence of involvement in committing criminal acts

2. conspiracy to commit criminal acts

3. evidence of an imminent attack from these individuals

4. evidence of committing vandalism or wanton destruction

5. harboring known criminals in their homes

The writer cannot assume that the IDF don't have legitimate reasons for making arrests. With 21 attempted violent attacks against Israeli civilians daily, there are LOTS of people who are suspected of being involved.

The PA is by international agreement supposed to arrest and prosecute criminals. But if the victim of the crime is Jewish or Israeli, the PA does nothing. Hence, Israel must make the arrests themselves.

The "land theft" the last poster mentioned is a canard. The only land that is truly "Palestinian" land is that which Israel recently turned over to the PA in Gaza.

All other territories are disputed lands, not clearly Palestinian lands.

See UN resolution 242 for the true disposition of the lands in question per international law.

Maybe you should listen to the interview from someone who is actually their, Israel's Apartied wall is stealing Palestinian land by surpassing the greenline taking out olive trees and homes of the people who have lived their for centuries.

The only reason settlements exist is through massive violence & Ilegal Occupation of the Palestinian land supported and funded by the U.S. Govt.

I look at it like this:

Rocks against Tanks kinda like David vs Goliath

except (Goliath is Israel now, funny how history repeats itself kinda like that wall thing)

The only Criminal acts commited are that of the IOF(Isralie Occupation Forces) The IOF cannot have "legitimate reasons for making arrests" if their very presence is Ilegeal.

"disputed lands"

The Palestinians have been on those lands for hundreds of years. The Israelis claim that they have a right to the land based on the deals they made with foreign landowners (recent) and former occupation of that site (ancient) or "divine right." The ironic part about the latter claim is that, genetically speaking, all people can be traced back to a common ancestor approximately 2000 - 2500 years ago. Not only that, most Palestinians have more in common genetically with Jews of Middle Eastern descent than those Jews have in common with Jews of Russian or Ashkenazi descent.

This means that culture is more about identification than delusions of racial or ethnic purity. In a genetic sense, the Palestinians are the brothers of Israelis. Instead of trying to eliminate these people, it makes sense to work out somekind of peace between the two. Not that I think that it is easy, but I do think that it is possible.

Itzak Rabin proved that it could be possible ten years ago. May his memory shine brighter to the world today and may his lessons not be lost on the rest of us.

There is a good deal of oversimplification here. Of course the situation of occupation is extremely complex - and in reading George's account one must remember that, horrendous as it must be to live under these circumstances - these soldiers were undoubtedly searching for someone suspected of planning (or maybe already having carried out) some kind ofattack on Israelis. Attacks may take the form of suicide bombings, shootings, etc - and I can assure you that living under the constant threat of such occurrences is also very difficult! I hope to see us Israelis withdraw from a large part of the occupied territories as soon as possible - and to deal with the fear and violence on both sides.

"The Palestinians have been on those lands for hundreds of years. The Israelis claim that they have a right to the land based on the deals they made with foreign landowners (recent) and former occupation of that site (ancient) or "divine right."

Actually, population figures for 1844 show that Jews were the majority population of Jerusalem, prior to the Zionism of 1880-1948.

Jews have had a continuous presence on the ancient land of Israel for the past 3,300 years. Though the bulk of the Jewish immigration occurred between 1880 and 1950.

Immigration from nearby Arab countries has paralleled Jewish developement of agricultural lands and of Jewish-owned businesses. These advances made first by the Zionists and later by the Israelis, provided well-paying jobs for Palestinian Arabs. For instance, the population of the West Bank increased three-fold since 1967, mostly due to a high immigration rate.

The Palestinian Arab whose family has lived on the land for centuries is the exception. Few Israelis or Palestinians can claim a continuous family presence in the region going back centuries.

Israel's claims on the land have little to do with "divine right" although the Torah does state that God gave the land to the Jews "from the river to the sea" which includes the WEst Bank and Gaza. ANd despite Islamic resistance to a Jewish state, the Koran also restates this right of ownership of land to the Jews. (Chapt. 5 verse 2).

Instead, Israel's claims are based on Jewish ownership of land (purchased by Zionists), the Balfour Declaration of 1917 (won by Zionist lobbyists), the League of Nations (which accepted the Balfour Declaration) and UN resolution 181 which partitioned the remnants of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab State.

Hence, Jewish ownership of the land came about through international agreement and a UN resolution.

That said, The Israeli govt. has no plans to dislocate the palestinian Arab population, despite numerous claims made on the pages here.

The only forcible transfer of People that has occurred was against 9,000 Jews in GAza.

Israel's withdrawal from Gaza did not bring peace.

Instead, Hamas has been declaring their "victory" saying that the Israelis retreated because of their violent attacks!

What makes you think that if Israel withdrew from more territories, that there would be peace?

And more generally, what makes indymedia readers think that the two-state solution will bring peace or prosperity?

The Palestinians can't even keep the peace and run a government in their own lands - maybe they'd be better off under the Israelis...

It is a myth that all the Palestinians have been on the land for hundreds of year. Most of them are descendents of people who came into Palestine to work for Jews after the 1880s, because the Jews treated them much better than their fellow Arabs in the neighboring areas.

Also, the wandering Arabs, with their herds of goats, helped to create desert land because the goats ate every morsel of growing plants.