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LOCAL Announcement :: Civil & Human Rights : Police State : Poverty & Urban Development

Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

County Supervisors consider budgets for harassing glbt community, surveilance against activists, frontlines in the war on the poor, expansion of world's largets penal system EVER... in other words, the POlice, Jail guards, and Sheriff.
As we all know the Board of Supervisors and City Council both have been making some harsh budget cuts to health and human services in meetings
running all week. We should be there MONDAY to ensure that these cuts are equally distributed to the police powers that in the past year have
expanded with new SUVs, surveilance of activists despite Anti-P.A.T.R.I.O.T. A.C.T. resolutions, a successful harrassment lawsuit by the Blue Lagoon, and several lethal shootings.

The Board of Supervisors meets Monday in their chambers (5th floor of the tall 701 Ocean St. County building) to consider budgets for the Sherrif, Court Security, and the County Jail. If OUR salaries are cut, if we are asked to cut corners in helping the poor access services, to aid the mentally ill, and to get medicine for the sick,... If funding is cut to the agencies that make it possible for the poor to help themselves, for immigrants to participate in civil society, for the elderly to work together, then lets make sure they know we object to an expanded police-state budget, complete with a healthy does of Public Relations! Let's also demand accountability to the public and remind the Board that the good residents of Santa Cruz have been without a Citizens Police Review Board for the past two years.

I fully understand that there is a personal risk inherent in actually publicly confronting the police as they get their funding rubber stamped,
but if nothing else please be there to tell the story of the hearing... and report on it to santacruz.indymedia.org.

I want to know if the Sherrif's budget gets equal treatment: oh, these cuts are essential, we'll try to minimize them but there's nothing we can do, it's not us, it's the state, blame Arnold, not psuedoliberal Santa Cruz reps... you know the routine.
 
 


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Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

true that Danielsan!
Of course considering that the police budget in SC is already the largest single expenditure, at least in the SC city budget. And somehow I doubt the county is going to be any better. More sherriffs, more raises, more equipment, and less and less $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for schools, social services, health care, etc.

Chinga todos estos politicos que valen mas al dinero y la proteccion del dinero (los puercos) que a la gente y lo que la gente necesita para vivir.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Just to point out, the lawsuit by the Blue Lagoon was leveled at the SCPD, not the Sheriff.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Danielson,
I think that you need to get your facts striaght before making a mockery of yourself and lonely followers who choose to disrupt the County budget meeting.
The County is responsible for the Jail and Sheriff staff, not the City police. Therefore any points you try to make relating City relations with County would be unfounded.
Did you know that most of the County Police or City Police revenues are grant funded? Yup, that's right the government provides grants for police vehicles, equipment, even officers.
The SCPRB, police review board for you, was a waste of money. They received pay for only taking part in a handful of complaints each year. Don't you think it would be better to have a volunteer group that conferred with the police on a case by case basis rather than spend $$ for nothing?
Blaming the budget cuts on "psuedoliberal Santa Cruz reps" is also a crock. Have you opened your eyes to anything other than your Huff news reading or indymedia forums? It's not just Santa Cruz going through these budget crunches, it's all over. Santa Cruz happens to have it badly becuase of misappropiations of funds. No, not people pocketing it. In the City, the council blows tons of money on artist galleries that will not earn them back revenue, social services that are widely abused by those not necessarily in need, beautifying Santa Cruz, and other non-essentials. The county does the same.
So, with all of your apparent expertise and overwhelming amounts of knowledge; I ask would you rather fight to reduce police funding (thus, eliminating jobs, equipment, abilities to service, etc) or reduce the needless spending? I am not for a "police state"; however, I think that if I called 911 and needed some help, I would want whomever to respond with the best equipment possible,in the fastest amount of time, and with as many people as needed. I know I would prefer more than not enough, if it came to saving my life. Maybe you don't.
Not that you'll take any of this information to heart before disrupting the County meeting and probably meeting a deputy or two, but I hope you will think about what you and lonely followers are arguing for/against. Do you rally think the police need less money? Do you think CDF (Fire) needs less money? Or do you see a need to refurbish stop signs that get damaged for ungodly amounts of money (materials and labor)?
 

CPRB Budget

For the record, the CPRB (Citizen's Police Review Board) WAS made up of volunteers!!! To my knowledge, there was only one full time position and maybe one half time. As for a "waste of money" the entire annual budget for the CPRB never exceeded $60,000. That's about a six month salary for 1 cop. C'mmon now....
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Cops making 120,000 dollars a year?..

Wow... how much overtime are they working?!
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

yeah, N5567 has is correct. Vinny, I'd like to know what city, county, state, or federal agency a cop is making $120 (even with overtime). I think that you are also making up points or ill informed. Don't you think the $60k could have been better spent? Especially if most were volunteers, why were one and a half positions funded?

I know I'd rather see $60k go to schools rather than people sitting on their duffs reading about complaints.

I think this topic is far over discussed now without appropriate rasoning, let it go.

Maybe someone can help me? I'd like to know if people on this forum who claim misappropriate behavior actually research the information they spew on these boards. If you do, what kind of information do you read? FWIW, the Huff news, rumors, and street talk is often incorrect speculation.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

The salaries for the sheriff's departments (among them public protection, detention, and court security) exceed 30 million. It's true that there are 'revenues' that include grants but the 'public safety' portion of the county's budget (which includes fire) is a whopping 50%.

There is also the matter of the departmental pensions that were awarded in fatter times and are now strapping the county's resources.

There's no supervisor who would advocate cutting the sheriff's budget and hope to get re-elected. It just isn't done. The sheriff is handled with kid gloves.

A lot of the questioning for the sheriff focussed on the medical wing at the jail.

Of course the DA didn't fare so well today. That's not to say his budget was cut but he was actually questioned and challanged. The supervisors are still hoping to get his department more monies on last day.

During a scheduled meeting you can listen live here.

sccounty01.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/bds/Govstream/ASP/Display/SCCB_Live_Frame.asp
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Ali, I wold like to thank you for your update to this "critical issue". I am very relieved to find you and N5667 have good minds and show intelligence. Please, if you get more information pass it along so that others can share the same intelligent knowledge you have. Danielsan and Vinny, take a look at Ali's link...maybe it'll help you out.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Well thank you for the compliment hello but I actually disagree with your position.

BTW the sheriff resorted to scare tactics today, and I found this unappealing. He tried to make me think like this:

It's a dangerous world and you never know if you are going to need the professional services of my department. Take this woman for instance....and went on to read how a crime victim was indebted to the sheriffs department for doing what is, basically and literally, it's job.

He wanted me to be afraid and grateful that I have someone to protect me.

It is in this way that all of law enforcement (and the military) can remain free from citizen review.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that there needs to be a police force and a military. But I agree with Lord Acton’s "Power corrupts..."
 

Thanks

So there are a couple things to respond to, but rather than waste my time responding to provocateurs who like to distract indymedia reporters from doing great work, I just want to point out that I did NOT invite ANYONE (much less my "lonely followers" ) to "disrupt" the hearings. I asked people to testify at a public meeting and participate in the democratic process (as flawed as it is), as I have been doing all week regarding other proposed cuts.

Aside from that, the main post by "hello" basically speaks for itself, starting with numerous factual and spelling errors (including my name), personal attacks, contradictions, misquotes, random stabs at unrelated topics, slander, and empty logic. Thanks for wasting my time.

Thanks, genuinely, to ali for offering REPORTING on the event, as I hoped someone would. Thanks for the links, they were informative and exactly what I hoped would come from my initial post. I suppose I should have expected to deal with the usual prowling snitch who resorts to insulting my intelligence repeatedly and making accusations that are false (and obviously so to most community members who know me).

Thank you ali, also for reporting that the Sheriff "resorted to scare tactics today." This is what all community members need to be aware of. At these hearings, we (community members and workers) are forced to sing and dance, to show the cuts we've already made, to be grateful when the cuts are decreased (but they're still cuts!!), to prove that our services are useful or vital or utilized,... while some (read: police) agencies have a 'get out of recession free' card, and whose budgets sometimes actually INCREASE in hard times in order to deal with the anticipated need for greater incarceration when services to the poor are put on the chopping block.

I'd ask that el sandinista quizas puede ofrecer su cuenta del dia en su bici cuando estaba recibiendo una multa por no tener luz... recuerdas? y una mujer llego para decir algo al policia? La historia puede dar algo a esta conversacion.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Well, according to the Sheriff's website, a deputy's salary maxes out at 5,900 per month, or 70,800 - but it begins at 4,400 per month - 52,800.

To respond to Daniel's first post, I'd have to say that SUVs are rather important, considering how mountaneous this county is, on our property in Corralitos there are easily places where a car just can't go, so, and that also ignores the fact that police cars generally suffer wear and tear that is entirely uncommon with normal autos.

As for several lethal shootings - unless you can provide backgrounds on each individual incident that proves they were wrong, it's really not a valid complaint, is it?

As for the mentally ill - Hey, you should value increased police funding, because the county jail is where a lot of them end up due to lack of proper facilities!

And as someone else pointed out, I'm sure, there hasn't ever been a citizen police review board for the sheriff - nor is there really much of a desire for one, as far as I'm aware.

Finally, I'm not quite sure that the county board of supervisors has passed many anti-patriot act resolutions, have they? I hope they aren't as bad as the S.C City council...

A good deal of your complaints seem more based on opinion than fact - and many of your annoyances seem more directed towards the city of santa cruz, not the sheriff.
 

Okay....

Okay, so the ENTIRE CPRB budget for one year is about the same as the yearly salary for ONE cop in Santa Cruz. There are currently about 100 city cops. and about as many county sherriffs, with unknown numbews of CHP, City Rangers, State Parks Ragers, and other unknown federal law enforcement. Surely, there, sure at least be a few members of the public empowered to discipline these so-called public servants when they get out of line.
 

"Public Empowered to Discipline These So-called Public Servants"

"Surely, there, sure at least be a few members of the public empowered to discipline these so-called public servants when they get out of line."

The public will only be empowered to discipline these so-called public servants with the revolution. One of the reasons being is that they are not getting out of line when they abuse us, they are only following orders.

groups.yahoo.com/group/Liberation_News/
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Oh boy! A revolution!

Considering your flag of Che Guevarra in that other post, I'm really rather frightened what sort of police state will replace the current police state... ;)
 

Re: "n5667"

"n5667" Do you know anything about Che Guavara and the Cuban revolution?

The Cuban revolution overthrew the U.S. backed Batista dictatorship. Batista's torturers were executed with stadiums as the juries. Blacks were allowed to go to the beaches on an Island that had not previously allowed it. U.S. corporations were nationalized with the profits of those enterprises going to human needs such as education, healthcare, and food. Abortion is provided free and on demand. Agriculture is done organically. Cuban troops helped defeat South Africa in Angola thus paving the way for the defeat of Apartheid in South Africa. Cuban doctors have been sent around the world. Many other gains were made by the Cuban revolution as well.

I advocate a more democratic socialist system, but Cuba is still a shining example of much of what socialism can achieve, even on a small island underdeveloped by imperialism.

Perhaps my version of revolution will not succeed, but I stated a simple truth when I said, "The public will only be empowered to discipline these so-called public servants with the revolution. One of the reasons being is that they are not getting out of line when they abuse us, they are only following orders."

Likewise the growing inability of capitalism to meet human needs will not be solved under this system, and “danielsan? is right on track by not letting the local pseudo-progressives off the hook.

groups.yahoo.com/group/Liberation_News/
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Well, Steve, I have only 4 requirements of Cuba until I will agree that it's a nice place to live...

1) Democratic.
2) Recognizes human rights.
3) Can provide a comfortable life for it's citizens.
4) Doesn't rely on foreign aid.

Until then, I'll be a little skeptical of Che's legacy.
 

Re: "n5667"

The millions who come out regularly in support of the Cuban revolution have their own opinions of the Cuban revolution and don't care for yours, or that of the State Department. They know that life is much better because of the Cuban revolution. Your demand that Cuba not rely on foreign aid is pretty silly since Cuba does not receive any real foreign aid, actually provides human aid to the people of the world such as the doctors they send everywhere. Your demand that Cuba: "Provide a comfortable life for it's citizens" is also silly since Cuba already does to a large degree, and to the extent they do not they are struggling as a country that has been made and kept poor by the world imperialist capitalist system. They were poor before the revolution, they are still poor because they still live in a capitalist and imperialist controlled world that controls trade, but they are still much better off now.

Your demands for democracy, recognition of human rights, providing a comfortable life for citizens, etc. would be better directed against the U.S. government for the U.S. governments treatment of us here.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

It's hard to take someone seriously when they believe that human rights and democracy is more alive in a dictatorship than a democracy, Steve.

I mean, has Bush thrown a dissenter like you in jail, as Castro does on a regular basis?

How many political parties does Cuba have? Can one call Castro a fascist nazi in front of his place of residence?

Regardless, your assertion that Cuba provides for its citizens to a large degree is hard to take seriously when Cuba suffers from food shortages.

www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7963366.htm
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Bush has thrown many dissenters such as me in prison, but your ignorance should be forgiven since you are depending on the corporate media.

In addition the well-publicized cases who have claimed to be political prisoners recently in Cuba have been proven to be on the payroll of the U.S. government and some as terrorists who had carried out a hijacking. Cuba has the right and duty to defend her national sovereignty. I do not deny that problems have occurred in Cuba. I am surprised by your denial of the problems in the United States, as well as your denial of the fault of imperialism in keeping most of the world poor, including Cuba. Cuba may not have much, but what they do have generally goes to the common need.

The millions who regularly rally for their revolution in Cuba recognize these facts. Any improvements that can be made on Cuba will have to come from the Cubans themselves. They have already experienced decades of murderous dictatorships and actual starvation under U.S. control.

I've had to respond to issues on Cuba, but I think it is important that discussion continue here more to the topic of the county budget.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

>>I've had to respond to issues on Cuba, but I think it is important that discussion continue here more to the topic of the county budget


Tomorrow, Thursday the 24th 9 AM is the last day of budget hearings. This is when everything that cannot possibly be put off will be decided. Last day usually doesn't last that long, ie everything is usually decided by then and unless some new information is presented things get voted through.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

I never denied any problems in the United States - merely that to compare a dictatorship to our republic is an interesting stance to take. We have our fair share of shortcomings, but to compare out government and freedoms to that of a dictatorship that imprisons political dissidants is going quite far.

As an aside, I wasn't aware that websites like um, indymedia.org and infoshop.org were corporate media outlets, as you suggest.

And of course they've experianced decades of murderous dictatorships - they've been experiancing the current one for nearly 50 years.

As for the topic at hand, the county sheriff's budget was cut by 350,000 - thus the department is reducing it's staff by 6... How they're managaing that when a deputy is paid 120,000 dollars a year I'm not quite sure. ;)
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

>>As for the topic at hand, the county sheriff's budget was cut by 350,000 - thus the department is reducing it's staff by 6... How they're managaing that when a deputy is paid 120,000 dollars a year I'm not quite sure. ;)

Looks like you read the sentinal article. I believe that these were vacant positions that were eliminated. I also beleive the 120,000 figure was clarified above.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Indeed it was, your average cop, it turns out, doesn't make 120,000 a year.

"The cut will preserve the number of deputies on patrol, but result in the loss of two deputy positions, two sergeants, two records clerks and a receptionist."

www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2004/June/22/local/stories/04local.htm

I read the article, but it doesn't mention if the 6 positions are currently vacant or not, or, if it does, I missed it.

However, I may be incorrect, it would appear funding over all for the Sheriff's department will increase it's budget over all because of a new wage contract.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

According to the Sentinal article:

Public affairs deputy Kim Allyn will be transferred to recruitment, and a community services deputy will also be transferred, resulting in the end of the DARE program.

So no deputies were lost.

Sentinal: Administration and community services will lose sergeants.

It doesn't say if the positions are currently filled or, if so, those are also transfers.

Similar reporting on the receptionist positions.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"Cuba has the right and duty to defend her national sovereignty."

Does that include murdering any citizen that dares flee the country? You are a hypocritical fuck Steve Argue.
 

Re: alias "i" and "n5667"

Cuba recently executed hijacking terrorists that would have been well rewarded if they had made to the United States. History has proven to that the U.S. government treats anti-Cuban terrorists and murderers very well when they land on U.S. soil. This recent incident was a threat to the safety of every Cuban, and the Cuban government acted decisively to show like-minded thugs that Cuba will make them pay if they are caught carrying out terrorism.

Obviously "n5667" knows nothing of the many political prisoners in the United States.
 

Derisive name calling serves no purpose

Nobody wants to read dialogue here which attempts to intimidate or provoke an angry response while serving no other purpose.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"Cuba recently executed hijacking terrorists that would have been well rewarded if they had made to the United States. History has proven to that the U.S. government treats anti-Cuban terrorists and murderers very well when they land on U.S. soil. This recent incident was a threat to the safety of every Cuban, and the Cuban government acted decisively to show like-minded thugs that Cuba will make them pay if they are caught carrying out terrorism."

Yeah, I think North Korea probably calls people who flee their country terrorists too... Wait, you probably think North Korea is a pretty keen place too that can blame its problems on the U.S.

"Obviously "n5667" knows nothing of the many political prisoners in the United States."

Care to enlighten me? Will I get to hear about Wesley Cook, or Leonard Peltier?
 

How do you know what people want to read?

sc-imc volunteer wrote:
"Nobody wants to read dialogue here which attempts to intimidate or provoke an angry response while serving no other purpose."

I write this in all seriousness. How do you know what people want to read? While it is not desirable to have vitriolic, nasty people flaming each other on this site, you must admit, sometimes its kind of entertaining to read these posts. I mean, when I see a post that has 30 comments, I automatically click that onbe first, to see what the cxontroversy is. Besides, there is some dialogue going on, and maybe some education. Even if at times, people get nasty.
 

serving the public good

It is the name calling ("You are a hypocritical fuck Steve Argue") which can often lead to flame wars. Dialogue and education are great though!
 

Schools Not Jails

The SC County Sheriff's dept budget is a "sacred cow" which boasts higher wages, benefits than other job classifications in job descriptions which require many more years of college preparation but are paid much less. Teacher's pay is the most glaring example I can think of.

Conversely, using incarceration as a deterrent to crime does not prove itself to be an efficient way of spending our public dollars. Speaking of $60,000 a year, we can literally send a youth to four years at Harvard cheaper than we can send them to four years in prison. Which solution do we, as a society choose to do?

Well, you can see where we are putting our money.

Coming up soon at a ballot box near you is a plea to tax ourselves for 30 years to raise funds to build a $533 million dollar hwy. one widening project. Oh,and when it is all finished, we will still have the fishhook!! HUFF passed a resolution on June 23rd opposing the widening of Hwy One as a misuse of public funds of which a fraction could solve homelessness in Santa Cruz County. Please take the time to educate yourself on this issue as well.

I believe if police stick to real crimes (and the City and the DA) such as fraud, theft, assault, rape, kidnapping, arson, and murder to name most of them none of us would have the criticisms of the police that we do now. The Police need to leave alone a person who is holding a sign closer than 500 ft. from a freeway entrance, sleeping, camping.

And while we have our heavy-duty cleaver out,lets cut the heart out of the drug war money. No more undercover sting operations or special ops who spend huge amounts of money with the limited results of sending many more poor people to jail. No more arrests for possesion of less than an ounce of marijuana. The public will save a ton of money, the status of police in our community will be restored
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"It is the name calling"

Oh really? I guess it's just political commentary to call cops "jack booted thugs" or Bush "Hitler" but when I challenge Steve Argue to defend Cuba's policy of murdering it's citizens for the horrible crime of wanting to emigrate it's "name calling". Hypocracy is live and well in IMC land.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"The SC County Sheriff's dept budget is a "sacred cow" which boasts higher wages, benefits than other job classifications in job descriptions which require many more years of college preparation but are paid much less. Teacher's pay is the most glaring example I can think of."

Just a quick question, but how many teachers die on the job every year?..
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"n5667", On North Korea and Cuba you are comparing apples to oranges. This is natural, since most Americans are xenophobic and know little about the outside world and, strangely enough, even less about their own country. This is not your fault; you have been cruelly miseducated by a system that wants to keep you in the dark.

When I refer to terrorists from Cuba that the U.S. government has treated as heroes I am speaking of those who have used weapons in terrorist hijackings and in some cases have carried out murder. These are the only people who have been executed as you claim for trying to "flee Cuba".

Yes, I defend North Korea, on many levels and on similar grounds as to why I defend Cuba, but I would have to be as blind as you not to see that North Korea is both a more oppressive society than Cuba and a society that has abandoned too much of the socialist system to meet human needs in the way that Cuba has kept this a priority.

What imperialism would impose on North Korea would be much worse for the north and the entire nation than the current situation. Parallels can be seen in the former Soviet Union where in a much richer country capitalism has brought a large decrease (10 years) in the life expectancy, fratricidal wars, unemployment, etc. Capitalism in a country as poor as North Korea would be nothing short of a massive humanitarian disaster.

The U.S. has already murdered millions of Koreans in the so-called "Korean War" of the early 1950s. The military destruction of what is left of the socialist system in North Korea now would cause a massive humanitarian crisis that would engulf the entire region with refugees and war. Likewise, the days of imperialist subsidies and capitalist investment in South Korea are long-gone due to both the destruction of the Soviet Union (and thus an end to competition with the Soviet Union) and the higher price of South Korean labor that resulted from a militant union movement that exploded in the 1980s and continues to this day. That labor movement also forced some reforms on the U.S. imposed dictatorship in the South, yet there are still today prisoners in South Korean jails for owning the works of Lenin and Marx and for being leaders in the labor movement.

U.S. imperialism creates systems in its own image around the world. While giving lip service to high ideals like democracy, they destroy democracies and murder and torture revolutionary and reformist advocates of democracy everywhere they go. From the Pinochet in Chile, to Batista in Cuba, to the Samozas in Nicaragua, to the Shah of Iran, to the Taliban itself, and the list could go on and on of dictatorships established by the U.S. government abroad, U.S. imperialism is the ultimate murder incorporated.

Likewise the U.S. government fears the American working class and oppressed minorities within our borders. Our movement is weak and thus they know they do not have to apply the same level of oppression that they have to abroad, at least not yet.

This does not mean they do not use the same methods in the United States. It is only the scale that is smaller. When blacks had become so fed up with institutional racism and leaders like Martin Luther King, Malcom X, and the Black Panther Party all advocated radical solutions in fighting the problem and had a broad hearing amongst blacks, who were the most advanced political element of the working class in the United States at the time, the U.S. government through the FBI and local law enforcement agencies moved ahead with the extra-judicial executions of Martin Luther King Jr., Malcom X, Fred Hampton, and 39 other leaders of the Black Panther Party. Many other Black Panther Leaders who were not executed outside of the judicial system were framed-up and put in Prison. Some sit in prison to this day as political prisoners. Some have been completely exonerated and freed such as Jeronimo Ji Jagga Pratt who was freed after doing decades in prison under an FBI organized frame-up. Assata Shakur was able to flee to Cuba where she lives to this day in freedom but in exile.

Likewise American Indians became a threat to the U.S. capitalist class and its government in the late 1960s and 1970s when they began to speak out for their rights that were being denied in America and comparing their historical mistreatment to the Vietnamese who were being murdered in their millions. While Native Americans are numerically insignificant in terms of the American power structure, their moral strength having faced genocide from the American capitalist system caused a major problem for U.S. imperialism.

The worst happened when the FBI moved into the tiny but outspoken Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, where the FBI committed mass murder as it backed their puppet tribal chief Dick Wilson who maintained dictatorial control through electoral fraud, GOON terror, and murder. The FBI was an integral part of this terror campaign, supplying automatic weapons, intelligence, and personnel. Around 100 people were murdered by the FBI agents and Dick Wilson’s death squads, including women and children. AIM warriors, and anyone wanting to stay alive on Pine Ridge, including Leonard Peltier, became armed to defend themselves and the women and children. Two FBI agents were shot and killed when they came in shooting at the compound where Leonard Peltier, other AIM warriors, and women and children were living. Leonard Peltier is serving two life sentences, yet there is no real evidence that Leonard Peltier shot anyone.

Many union leaders have also done time in America for standing up to capitalism. With the recent death of Ronald Reagan we should remember that one of Reagan’s first acts in office was declaring the air traffic controllers strike illegal and dragging its union leaders away in chains. This was combined with his support to the right-wing Solidarnosc union movement in Poland that upon taking power instituted privatization and austerity that brought on 50 percent unemployment while also outlawing abortion that had been free on demand in the Communist system that had resulted from the military defeat of Hitler’s occupation. Meanwhile in Afghanistan Ronald Reagan was backing, with BILLIONS of dollars, Osama Bin Laden and his religious fanatics that murdered women for teaching little girls how to read and write and who threw acid in the faces of women liberated from the veil. Osama Bin Laden’s Mujahideen did this as they waged a holy war against a Soviet backed government committed to literacy and women’s rights. In Central America Reagan was backing the death squad government of El Salvador to the tune of a million dollars a day as that government murdered leftists, students, unionists, peasants, and religious leaders. Etc. etc.

Meanwhile a tiny group in the United States called MOVE was outspoken about many issues including racism and police brutality in Philadelphia. As a result many of their members were murdered and framed-up by the Philadelphia police under the racist leadership of Mayor Frank Rizzo. A young reporter who did not remain silent on this issue was Mumia Abu-Jamal. As a result he was framed-up and sits on death row to this day. For more on Mumia Abu-Jamal’s case please read: Yet Another Witness Refutes The frame-Up Of Mumia Abu-Jamal! At: twincities.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/12426

There are many other political prisoners that I have not mentioned, but I would hope that some of this helps clear up some questions regarding the supposed absence of political prisoners in the United States.
 

Hypocracy is live and well in IMC land

bush is hitler

and, cops are pigs

no money for war, no money for police.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Yeah... Listen kiddo, when you grow up you'll find out the world is not so black and white you percieve it.

The U.S is not evil, Communism is not Great - neither are the truth, and neither are lies.

But to be so blind as to believe that Cubans have more political and personal freedom that do people in Western Democracies is... well, it takes a leap of faith and a gap of logic.
 

google is not a dictionary

>>Oh really? I guess it's just political commentary to call cops "jack booted thugs" or Bush "Hitler" but when I challenge Steve Argue to defend Cuba's policy of murdering it's citizens for the horrible crime of wanting to emigrate it's "name calling". Hypocracy is live and well in IMC land.


Main Entry: jack·boot
Pronunciation: 'jak-"büt
Function: noun
1 : a heavy military boot made of glossy black leather extending above the knee and worn especially during the 17th and 18th centuries
2 : the spirit or policy of militarism or totalitarianism
3 : a laceless military boot reaching to the calf




But when I type jack booted (sic) into google I get links to 'jack booted thugs'.


The word 'thugs' was never used in the article.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

On last day the board allocated more monies to CSA 23 (might have been 23 or 28 - sorry), 10 million dollars and a portion went to fund patrols.

Under construction allocations monies were given for the strip search facility.


Monies were allocated for homeland security.
 

Re: "n5667"

"Yeah... Listen kiddo, when you grow up you'll find out the world is not so black and white you percieve (sic) it."

Besides the false age you perceive me to have, and the age discrimination it implies, I think I was pretty clear in pointing out that the world is not black and white in the ways presented by you and America’s corporate politicians.

"The U.S is not evil, Communism is not Great - neither are the truth, and neither are lies."

The fact that U.S. imperialism is pure murderous evil representing corporate interests everywhere it goes does not mean that the communist movement is always right. I've already conceded that ground, and here you are putting words in my mouth. I will say that any force in today’s world that is fighting against the U.S. occupation of their country is always right, whether they are communist or not. I will also say that the American pretexts for war and mass murder are always lies.

"But to be so blind as to believe that Cubans have more political and personal freedom that do people in Western Democracies is... well, it takes a leap of faith and a gap of logic."

Again you are putting words in my mouth. I established that there are political prisoners in the United States and that Cubans are not executed as was claimed for trying to "flee" their island.

A better comparison for Cuba would be the lack of freedoms and oppression they suffered before the U.S. backed Batista dictatorship was overthrown and the expanded freedoms and much better life they have after.

Few Cubans want to go back to what they had before the revolution, yet capitalist dictatorship and exploitation are all that the so-called western democracies have ever have had to offer to the poor countries of the world.
 

Re: "n5667" correction

I meant to write the additional capitalized words:

I will say that any force in today’s world that is fighting against the U.S. occupation of their country is always right IN DOING SO, whether they are communist or not.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

How dangerous is teaching?

According to the U.S. Department of Education, from 1994 through 1998, teachers were the victims of approximately 668,000 violent crimes, which include rape or sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault and simple assault. About 80,000 of those were serious violent crimes.

Not listed but a major factor in job safety for teachers are the large number of possiblities for being exposed to disease such as colds, flus, hepatitus, TB, and all infectious disease. A teacher is constantly in with hundreds of students in small confined spaces.

How dangerous is it to be a cop? It doesnt make the top 10 list of dangerous jobs. With all jobs being equally rated as averaging a danger factor of 1, Cops are at 3.4. However, the danger comes from the higher chance of being killed in a car accident rather than from being shot or dying from being assaulted.

BTW Pizza delivery drivers are in a more dangerous job than cops.
 

when you grow up

Re: "n5667"
by Steve Argue 26 Jun 2004
"Yeah... Listen kiddo, when you grow up you'll find out the world is not so black and white you percieve (sic) it."

um, i believe n5667 was directing that comment at me, not you steve.

i'm not a kiddo anymore! I'm a big girl!

last night there were lots of cops on the streets of santa cruz!

let's be honest, cops suck.

"Monies were allocated for homeland security."
- fuck them too
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"The fact that U.S. imperialism is pure murderous evil representing corporate interests everywhere it goes does not mean that the communist movement is always right. I've already conceded that ground, and here you are putting words in my mouth. I will say that any force in today’s world that is fighting against the U.S. occupation of their country is always right, whether they are communist or not. I will also say that the American pretexts for war and mass murder are always lies."

Same thing with communist countries - all nations are out to better themselves, there's no morality involved - it's self interest.

The USSR subjugated Eastern Europe, and quite a bit of Asia, China currently occupies Tibet and the Xinjiang Uygar province. We won't even get into Vietnam and North Korea...

There's no moral superiority involved - but Steve, could you hold a pro capitalism pro democracy protest in Havana, I wonder?

And Becky, I'm in no way trying to demean the jobs teachers do, but all the same, I think basic economic principles can be applied here, police officers have high rates of suicide, divorce, depression, injury, and death - much higher than teachers do - and while both police and teachers don't get paid enough, being a cop is utlimately more dangerous than teaching, and their pay reflects that (however pitifully).

As for "Cops are Pigs," no, I wasn't addressing you, but I am sorry your party got broken up - or was it a parking ticket?
 

Teachers' pay vs. Police/Sheriffs' pay

Question for n5667: Shouldn't pay for teachers/police reflect the number of years of college education required to do the job? Teachers begin at 4 years of college paid at their own expense (I've had 6 yrs of college). Police get 6 months of training which is paid for them and they receive pay for going thru the training. Death statistics for police officers are skewed by counting all causes of death rather than causes of death arising from the unique dangers of their job description.

Second, teachers in Santa Cruz County are not paid wage equity with other counties in the State of California, but police/sheriff's are.

Isn't this a LOCAL problem of misplaced and patently unfair LOCAL policies regarding the relative value of police protection vs. education of our youth?
 

Re: n5667

“n5667?, It is a common mistake to look at the former Soviet Union, Cuba, etc. and see their real and perceived abuses as proof that their systems are the same as capitalist imperialism.

When you say that the Soviet Union subjugated “quite a bit of Asia? I presume you are referring to Soviet Asia. Yet it is a funny kind of subjugation that voluntarily joined the Soviet Union and had a large improvement in their standard of living due to the USSR’s centrally planned economy. In this centrally planned economy a priority was made of advancing the economies of the poorer regions. This is the opposite of imperialism under capitalism, and cannot be perceived as the same thing.

On every level the standard of living improved including in medical care, literacy, women’s rights, and material well being. Likewise, by all of these same standards the, the well being of the people in these regions has gotten much worse since Yeltsin’s capitalist counter-revolution.

“n5667? You state, “The USSR subjugated Eastern Europe?. I say yes and no.

The Soviet Union was brought into World War 2 due to Hitler’s attacks on the Soviet Union. These attacks came after Stalin’s unprincipled peace agreement with Hitler, an agreement that had divided the strategic control Poland between Nazi Germany and the USSR.

In response to Hitler’s invasion of the USSR the people of the Soviet Union fought heroically and the entire socialist economy was geared up for the victory against fascism. Many who fought Hitler’s invasion did not like Stalin, this included the Left Opposition to Stalin, yet they fought to defend the substantial gains of the October Revolution. As a result of this heroic fight, the fascist menace was physically repelled from the Soviet Union thus defending the gains of October.

The Soviet Union brought progress to Eastern Europe by smashing the Nazi system in Germany, establishing a deformed socialist system in East Germany, and eliminating the Nazi occupations of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and Hungary. Yugoslavia also had its own socialist revolution against the Nazi occupation. Greece was also liberated to a large degree by its own internal socialist opposition to Hitler’s occupation, but Stalin made an unprincipled pact with U.S. imperialism that led to U.S. imposed capitalist dictatorship in Greece the subsequently carried out mass murder against the revolutionary opposition that had fought against the Nazi occupation.

Thus the role of the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe was contradictory from the beginning, yet it was also a roll imposed on the Soviet Union by Hitler’s invasion.

Not only was fascism smashed primarily by the sacrifices of the Soviet Union. The socialist block as it was set up helped play a progressive role in world politics. These countries, especially East Germany (the most powerful former capitalist country among them), were no longer part of the world capitalist system and no longer profited off of the subjugation of Africa and other “third world? capitalist regions. In addition they lent aid to national liberation struggles from Vietnam to Cuba, helping those countries throw off the yoke of U.S. and French imperialism.

Yet there were important contradictions. The Soviet Government was very fearful of the example that could emerge if any type of democratic communist government emerged in Eastern Europe. They knew this could become an example for political revolution in the Soviet Union itself. Thus the Soviet Union intervened directly against movements for democratic communism in Poland and Hungary in the 1950s and in Czechoslovakia in the 1960s. These interventions were criminal acts.

While there were no supportable justifications for these interventions, this was not the economic driven imperialism of capitalism. The Soviet Union actually did much to help underdeveloped countries like Cuba economically. This is opposite the role of capitalist imperialism, a role that under-develops countries and regions for cheap resources and cheap labor.

I advocate democratic communism, but this does not mean I will draw equal signs between systems that are very different for the convenience of people who need over simplified black and white versions of reality.
 

Re: Teachers' pay vs. Police/Sheriffs' pay

Sheriffs are paid more than teachers not due to danger levels, but because, for the wealthy who run America, sheriffs are essential enforcers of capitalist property and the capitalist status quo. Higher wages help maintain the loyalty of these thugs.

It is a simple question of the priorities of the capitalists under the growing police state. Prisons are being built, not universities.

U.S. backed dictator Samoza once said of education for the people of Nicaragua that he did not see education as necessary because he did not need educated mules.

Of course in a more developed country like the United States the capitalists do need educated workers, yet actually investing in educating Americans becomes a very low priority when the American capitalists can often get cheaper educated workers from other countries around the world.

In addition, as the Democrats and Republicans gut the public educational system they know that those who can afford it will more and more pay for private education for their kids. Thus they are forcing private profit into a realm that should be publicly guaranteed.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"Question for n5667: Shouldn't pay for teachers/police reflect the number of years of college education required to do the job? Teachers begin at 4 years of college paid at their own expense (I've had 6 yrs of college). Police get 6 months of training which is paid for them and they receive pay for going thru the training. Death statistics for police officers are skewed by counting all causes of death rather than causes of death arising from the unique dangers of their job description.

Second, teachers in Santa Cruz County are not paid wage equity with other counties in the State of California, but police/sheriff's are.

Isn't this a LOCAL problem of misplaced and patently unfair LOCAL policies regarding the relative value of police protection vs. education of our youth?"

A college education does not infer on an individual added competance. It may grant them knowledge, but having a diploma doesn't necessarily suggest a person deserves to be paid more money.

For police, the on duty death rate is 21 officers per 100,000. I doubt the rate is so high for teachers who are "on duty." And if the past few weeks are any indication, police officers have to deal with a rather more dangerous element of society than teachers do, in general.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"Thus the role of the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe was contradictory from the beginning, yet it was also a roll imposed on the Soviet Union by Hitler’s invasion."

So Stalin was forced to occupy these countries under his totalitarian regime just like any other imperialist power?

Regardless, this is straying from the point I was making - in the United States, we enjoy a degree of freeom that has yet to be found in any communist nation.

When it comes to who's done more good for the world - neither - in any example brought forth governments are acting in self interest and that precludes in moral superiority. The U.S has Vietnam, The Phillipines, Nicaraugua and many more shameful acts - conversely, Communism's luminaries include Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung - together these governments have killed untold millions.

If you want to improve the world it's government you should be going after - powerful government wreaks untold havoc.
 

Conclusion: Repressive apparatus of State power=Local Police Departments, regardless of affiliation

I'd suggest that a comparison between teachers and cops might be based on their actual duties, rather than their education, i.e. police have a very specific directive [that they often overstep]: to detain people who may have broken the law so that they can be tried by their peers and punished if deemed necessary; while teachers have an ever increasing job-description, as they are now expected to be psychiatrists, academic counselors, friends, parents, wardens, babysitters, entertainers, oh and teachers, etc. In other words, while cops and guards do the same job and get raises (thanks to the F.O.P and the super powerful prison guards unions), teachers do more and more every day for low pay, little to no support from administration, gov't, and sometimes the public, and their union is called a "terrorist organization" by the Bush Regime
[Paige calls NEA 'terrorist organization' www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/02/23/paige.terrorist.nea/].

But we can pick any comparison that may or may not be valid: the bottom line is that the priority of any repressive state will ALWAYS be police protection rather than education, whether the state happens to be an oligarchy masquerading as a fake ass democracy, a genuinely democratic state (?), or a totalitarian imperialist state all dressed up in the garb of revolutionary socialism. An uneducated, undereducated, or miseducated public is ideal, as is a strong police infrastructure.

So why all the focus on who has more freedom? "No one is free when others are oppressed," the saying goes. Why is it so important to you, n5667, that citizens of the U.S.A. see that we have more freedoms than other people in other parts of the world? What is 'more freedom' anyway? Free, Not Free. Somewhat free? Free to do this, but not this?
You wrote that your big point was "in the U.S., we enjoy a degree of freeom [sic] that has yet to be found in any Communist nation." Just how many degrees of freedom are there?

We are all citizens of the same planet, and I do not care to revel in the freedoms that you assume I "enjoy" when I witness daily the freedoms *not* extended to people here without a piece of fucking paper that gives them permission to be here. And the freedoms stripped and DENIED to people who have committed crimes against private property, capital, and yes often against innocent people.

The freedoms that we 'enjoy' come and go at the whim of the pigs, the courts, the advertisers, and the media. Sometimes we have this freedom, sometimes we only have that one, sometimes some of us really don't have any of 'em. The law is arbitrarily enforced in this country, so don't tell me that I enjoy a degree of freedom that's so cool that I should just stop complaining about funding for the police departments.

Finally, thanks for coming around and agreeing with me at the end, there, n5667. We "should be going after government." Especially "powerful governments." Exactly. I obviously agree. And that was the goal of the first post with which you took so much issue, picking at specifics like the difference between county sherrif and city police, when my contention all along was that it does not matter, because they are all part of the same repressive apparatus.

On a side note, to CITY RESIDENTS: keep your ears open for a phone call from the police dept.: They have an annual summer shakedown where they call your HOME, inform you that the call is being RECORDED, and ask for a donation to augment their budget. "Can we count on you for $35?" "Oh, at least $10, is that too much to ask?" Remember: They are recording your response. Be careful!

Back the badge? Back THIS!
www.santacruzcopwatch.org/
 

Re: Alias n5667

"If you want to improve the world it's government you should be going after - If you want to improve the world it's government you should be going after - powerful government wreaks untold havoc.

As I've stated the Soviet Union saved the world from Hitler and saved many many many lives. Today in the world it is the United States that is the "Powerful government (that) wreaks untold havoc." Your failure to recognize this simple fact puts you out of step with the rest of the world. To blame the death tolls of countries like Korea who were attacked by U.S. imperialism on communism is absurd.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

The famine that occurs in North Korea today is of Korea's own making - through the 1960's North Korea has a powerful economy, as Russian and Chinese aid dried up, it nose dived.

Today North Korea spends 35% of the GNP on the military, and despite promises to shift resources towards light industry and agricultural, they continue to focus on their military.

In Russia, Stalin killed far more of his own country men than Hitler killed throughout the entire war.

In Cambodia Pol Pot killed millions - anyone with glasses (who could therefore read), even train conductors were eliminated.

In China the government is engaged with putting down revolt in the occupied Xiang-xang province, while also repressing the Tibetans, and stripping away the democracy in Hong Kong - and they continue to maintain that they have the right to use military force against the democratic Taiwan. And we won't even touch the millions that the Great Chairman Mao was able to knock off with his illfated plans.

No, Steve, communism is no better than "American Imperialism," except that it has managed to kill quite a few more, I'd wager.

Regardless, my original thesis holds - government is the root of evil - not capitalism.

And since communism requires a powerful centralized government, I'm afraid I'm just not comfortable with it... I'm not even comfortable with the amount of power our federal government has slowly been usurping since the Civil War.

And Denialsan, I won't disagree that the police certianly violate rights more often than they should - but at least local governments can retain a modicum of control over the police forces. In most other countries it is a national force accountable only to the national government.

I think there are plenty of problems in this country, the problem is that who we blame generally goes after the wrong people - citizens in this country have far more control than they perhaps realize - but with less than 50% even bothering to vote, it is quite apparent that their apathetic attitude shows they don't quite mind the current state of repression.

If the Sheriff's department is so bad, why does Mark Tracy keep getting re-elected, if the democrats and republicans are so bad, why do they keep getting re-elected, if Walmart is so bad, why do people shop there? I don't shop there, I hate Walmart, but... What can we do, enough people apparently shop there.

Honestly, the root of all problems in the United States can be explained with the simple fact hat people in this country have lost their since of Civic duty, they are happily ignorant and apathetic, happily unquestioning.

As for the police being merely a tool of oppression, here are the call logs for the SC Sheriff. I have a hunch the Sheriff spends more time responding to these calls rather than breaking down the doors of the local communist affiliate and oppressing the unions...

Calls for Service by Sheriff's Office Beat - Jan. 1 - Sept. 30, 2003

Area

# Calls for Service
Miscellaneous
3,706

North SLV
6,479

South SLV
8,140

Live Oak
18,428

Soquel
8,874

Aptos
10,681

Watsonville
7,583

Total
Unincorporated
Areas of County
63,891
 

What is the definition of a call for service?

Thanks for the stats n5667. Since you are so knowledgable, can you tell me what comes under the heading "call for service?" Can it be a phone call asking for directions? Or are we talking about an officer showing up at a possible crime scene and making a report?

In the City of Santa Cruz, which claims about 65,000 calls a year, I determined that if you crunch the entire annual budget divided by 65,000 it costs about $225 per call.

So, what is a call?

also: I agree with Steve. Using a pseudonym detracts from the credibility of the person commenting, but it also diminshes our ability to work out our differences. Its like snitching. I believe snitching is unethical.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

I would presme that calls for directions would fall under the miscellaneous, if at all... Because it would be rather interesting if the unified emergency call center would route all calls for directions to the police... But I couldn't say.

The statistics provided were found under the "Crime Analysis" section of the site.
 

that's an old one

"Using a pseudonym detracts from the credibility of the person commenting"

Information should be judged by the quality of it's content.

If the information is incorrect, then just say so.

viva pseudonyms!
 

Re: "n5667"

Re: "n5667"

Again most of your information is false.

The murder of around 4 million Koreans was done by the United States when it invaded Korea in the early 1950s.

The food crisis in North Korea is caused by several factors. The primary one being a series of natural disasters. Another important cause is the abandonment by the Communist Party of socialist measures subsidizing food. A third cause is economic isolation from the capitalist countries and an end to the favorable trade agreements they had with the Soviet Union and China. This change in favorable trade with China, most importantly impacting oil imports, happened as a result of pressure from the United States. A fourth is the economic backwardness of Korea caused by imperialist capitalism, colonialism, and imperialist war on the Korean Peninsula. A fifth reason is the amount of money North Korea is forced to put into its military.

North Korea is forced to spend a large amount of its GNP on defense due to threats from the United States. The tragic position of the Iraqi people under the guns of American imperialism is a good example as to why North Korea should not let down its defense.

"In Russia, Stalin killed far more of his own country men than Hitler killed throughout the entire war."

Besides the much shorter time Hitler was in power, this statement still just isn’t true unless you count those who died in the fight against fascism. Stalin was no great guy, but he did inherit a system from Lenin and Trotsky that was far superior to capitalism.

"In Cambodia Pol Pot killed millions - anyone with glasses (who could therefore read), even train conductors were eliminated."

Pol Pot was not a communist. His program was one for the de-industrialization of Cambodia bringing the country back to a strictly agrarian economy. As any communist will point out to Anarchists with similar ideas, the people will starve to death under such scenario. And they did. Pol Pot's regime was a total disaster.

The saving grace for Cambodia came in 1979 when both China and Cambodia invaded Vietnam under the urging of the United States. Vietnam quickly repelled the invasions and took the country of Cambodia in one month, handing out food and guns to the people as they swept through the country.

This, however, was not the end of Pol Pot. He remained based in Thailand for many years where his forces, with direct military aid from the United States, carried out terrorist attacks on Vietnamese and Kampuchean forces.

On China, let us not forget the repressive U.S. backed government of Chang Kai Chek that carried out mass murder against leftists.

While Mao Tse-tung made some pretty big blunders, and built a system after Stalin's model (as opposed to the democratic communist model I adhere to), Mao brought China forward from imperialist subjugation and starvation to a powerful country that will likely never have to face things like it did under foreign capitalist control like Japanese death camps and signs on businesses under the rule of the US and European imperialism that said no Chinese or dogs allowed.

With the Chinese revolution women's rights took a tremendous step forward with the barbaric practice of foot binding finally completely eliminated and other steps forward taken, health care became a guaranteed right provided through the communes, a sweeping land reform brought a much better life for poor peasants, formal slavery under the feudal and repressive Dalai Lama was abolished, etc.

Since Mao’s death many of the advances of the Chinese revolution have been lost. Deng Xiao Ping’s reversal of socialist land policies drove many peasants from the land and created unemployment in the 1980s. Free trade zones with foreign capitalist investment have brought horrible exploitation with little going to workers. Guaranteed health care is now gone due to the fact that health care was provided through the communes and American and other capitalist are not forced to provide this basic right when they set up shop.

To a large degree the action at Tianamen Square was protesting this march towards capitalism and the inequalities being created. While crying crocodile tears for those murdered, the imperialists breathed a sigh of relief knowing that their investments were protected.

China, more than other country led by a Stalinist misleadership, has overturned the tremendous advances made by the workers and peasants when the revolution first happened. What is needed to defend and reclaim these gains is an internal political revolution that overthrows the Stalinist Communist Bureaucracy and establishes a democratic communist republic. Imperialist invasion, more capitalism, or a total capitalist counter-revolution would be a terrible step backward for the people of China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Cuba.

U.S. Hands off of Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, and China!

For Democratic Socialist Revolution In The United States To Abolish Imperialism, To Meet Human Needs Such As Health Care And Education, To Stop the Degradation Of the Environment for Capitalist Profit, And To Defend and Extend The Bill of Rights!
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"When I refer to terrorists from Cuba that the U.S. government has treated as heroes I am speaking of those who have used weapons in terrorist hijackings and in some cases have carried out murder. These are the only people who have been executed as you claim for trying to "flee Cuba"."

You have got to be joking. You claim ignorance of the fact that Cubans trying to flee Cuba are routinely murdered when they resist arrest by the Cuban military and/or police? How come people are so absolutely desperate to flee Cuba that they climb aboard anything that floats to face a terrifying journey to the US? Surely they've heard of the millions of Americans fleeing the US due to the fascist police state in place?
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Steve...

Stalin killed millions in Ukraine, in the Gulags, etc... He was just as bad as Hitler.

North Korea today suffers from famine - this is over their own creation, no one forces them to spend 35% of their GDP on the military, it is a disaster of their own creation.

Deng is the man responsible for China's success - Mao and his wife's gang of four did an immense amount of damage to the country, and are responsible for the starving to death of millions of chinese.

Your attempt to cast these totalitarian states in a positive light is more than a little disconcerting.

In the end, neither the U.S, nor any of your romanticized communist countries are free from the yoke of overbearing government.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"Deng is the man responsible for China's success" n5667

Deng Xiao Ping carried out the Tiananmen Square massacre, created unemployment, and began the gutting of much of China's socialist system including guaranteed health care.

I don't have time to reply to the rest of you and your friend “i’s? arguments where you try to place Hitler and U.S. imperialism in a better light than their victims. You are just repeating the same nonsense I have already replied to.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

As I've said many times, there is no ranking system Steve, they are all moral equivalents, communism isn't #3 on the list as to how bad they are, Stalin killed 25 million of his own country men, Hitler nailed 12 million Jews and other undesirables, and Imperialsim the world over is the cause of most problems in the world today - they all suck(ed).

They're all the product of powerful government, I'm detecing a theme here...
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

I have to say, this has been an interesting string to follow! Thanks, guys!
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Are you bailing on us Steve? I'm asking you a simple question - why are Cubans so desperate to flee their country that they climb on just about anything that floats to escape it? The way you describe the differences between Cuba and the US, the flow of desperate emmigrants should be the reverse.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Apologists for Hitler have manufactured false numbers to promote the lie that Stalin Killed more than Hitler. Learning a lesson from Hitler himself, the capitalists repeat this big lie everywhere.

So what is the reality?

Stalin was a monster. Hitler was a monster. Bush is a monster. All statements are very true and none is more true than the other.

Yet the social syetem in the Soviet Union was far superior.

As U.S. imperialism today freely commits mass murder in Iraq and around the world, we can clearly see that the demise of the USSR decisively altered the political landscape on this planet in many ways. Despite the Stalinist bureaucratic degeneration, the Soviet Union represented the industrial and military powerhouse protecting every other country that had overthrown capitalist rule and stood up to the United States, from China to Vietnam to Cuba.

Another result of the Soviet Union’s demise is that the nominally independent countries of the Third World can no longer maneuver between the “two superpowers.? They thus face the unrestrained economic exactions and brute military force of the imperialists. Look at the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, where the overturn of the October Revolution has led to the intensification of imperialist bloodsucking, and with it, the increased starvation and bloodshed—ethnic group against ethnic group, country against country, everybody out for some advantage in a battle for survival. This has occurred because the International Monetary Fund and World Bank have demanded repayment of the money they had given previously as a sop to these African countries during the Cold War against the Soviet Union.

U.S. capitalism killed directly in war 3 million Vietnamese and four million Koreans. Capitalist dictatorships put in power by the U.S. kill around the world every day, as does capitalism's hunger, lack of health care, lack of clean water, etc.

The millions killed by U.S. capitalism far outnumber those killed by either Hitler or Stalin.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Apparently Stalin has his apologists as well...

Regardless, as great as the USSR was, I think there's a reason why the USSR's satellites revolted against Russia, I think there's a reason why the Berlin wall was torn down...

Substandard medical care for everyone is a lovely notion, but apparently living under a totalitarian regime didn't make it worth it.

And Russia didn't protect China, the two countries hated each other's guts by the 60's... You know, brotherhood, solidarity and all that...
 

Nick or "n5667" Exposed as Nazi Sympathizer

"Hitler nailed 12 million Jews and other undesirables". Nick or "n5667"

While 20 million would be closer to the numbers killed, your characterization of Jews, unionists, leftists, and others murdered by Hitler as “undesirables? is very telling about the ideological depths of your anti-communism.

As for China on the role of the USSR defending Chinese self-determination, obviously I was referring to the era before the Sino-Soviet split.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Well, Steve, I hate to tell you, but that's what Hitler thought of them.

But I can understand that you would have to grasp at straws...

Here's a question Steve, I presume you don't support monopolies, but then why do you support communism?..

Denying people economic freedom gives a great deal of power to the state.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Hitler thought of those he murdered as "undesirables", yes. And the KKK thinks of those they murder the same, and also as "niggers" and "kikes", but I would never use any of those terms the way you just did. Backing their language is a strong way of backing their propaganda message. Those killed by Hitler were not "undesirables". This is an important point, not grasping at straws.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Undesirable does not hold the same connotation as "nigger," or "kike" does.

If it did, and I am a racist, why didn't I say Hitler killed 12 million kikes and undesirables?

You're quibbling over a none point.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Nick, you called those killed by Hitler "undesirables". You can try to dismiss my outrage over this racist pro-fascist statement as, "quibbling over a none-point," but I think where you stand so far should be clear to any thinking person. I would encourage a retraction of your statement if it was not what you meant.
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

If it pleases you...

Hitler murdered 12 million jews, and other persons the nazis found undesirable...
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

Good job of ignoring the facts about Cuban citizens being murdered while trying to flee to the US Steve, quite an effective debating tool. Care to hazard a guess on the number of US athletes defecting to Cuba (no doubt to take advantage of that wonderful healthcare system) vs the number of Cuban athletes defecting to the US?
 

Re: "i"

"Good job of ignoring the facts about Cuban citizens being murdered while trying to flee to the US Steve..."

I did not ignore the fact that you raised this, I already responded that to my knowledge it is not true. If you can give me one specific example I will check into it, but just repeating the same accusation will not make it true.

As for people leaving Cuba, I have also pointed out that a million regularly come out and rally for the revolution. It is not surprising that some people still want to leave Cuba for a richer country (due to imperialism) like the United States. The same migration can be seen from capitalist third world countries such as Mexico, Haiti, and Puerto Rico.

Yes, some Cuban athletes want to come to the U.S. where they will become rich, yet others want to stay in Cuba where they support the revolution. Remember the Cuban boxers at the Olympics that ran into the audience, not to leave Cuba, but to stop the burning of a Cuban flag?
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

"As for people leaving Cuba, I have also pointed out that a million regularly come out and rally for the revolution."

Yeah, and Saddam always won the election in Iraq with 100% of the vote...
 

Re: Supervisors consider County "Law Enforcement" budget

What do Cuba, the USSR, Pol Pot and North Korea have to do with little Santa Cruz County's Sheriff budget?

The cops aren't bad here. We need 'em. Get over it. Move on.
 

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