I lean toward atheism too, actually (the spiritual model I presented is entirely reconcilable with evolution), but I think there is also a danger in elevating THIS view to the level of holy writ. The hard rational/linear viewpoint also clouds intellect, and ultimately becomes as irrational as religion. A few years ago, some smarmy hyper-rationalists I knew were spouting this line that went "the concept of an objective reality that exists independent of human observation is an illusion." Oh yah, that's verifiable. Maybe it was an in-joke, but they really seemed to have swallowed it whole.
Think of the personality disorder that presumes to know everything, and in effect tries to force others to believe this as well. I can't spend more than five minutes around one of these guys without thinking "Godammit, why didn't their parents just beat them more?" I also fantasize about taking this up myself. After another 10 minutes of being shouted down whenever I threaten to utter a syllable, I have to walk away before the fantasy becomes real. They're not always atheists by any means, but they are devout believers in "knowledge," and they embody the hazards of that faith.
The world just isn't as they imagine, or as ANYONE imagines. It's rational/linear and yet profoundly plural and organic at the same time, in a way that hopelessly outstrips our cognitive ability. At some point it becomes obnoxious to even pretend to understand it, and enlightenment comes only from knowing you're just a pebble on a beach. As to the "real" nature of the beach and all the rest of it, who really knows...
I challenge you to consider that this thing you're blaming on religion
"...have been used by our oppressors to create ideologies of obedience and to divide and conquer the people"
isn't really inherent to spiritual beliefs, but to class. Fight the real enemy. Starting around ten thousand years ago when they themselves were high priests (a class phenomenon), elites have brought all their means to bear on deranging faith into a pattern that delivers God-like power to THEM. There were a multitude of beliefs then, but these have been narrowed down to just the few that do this really well, which seem to be monotheisms. Perhaps a supreme father figure, i.e. a symbol of ultimate authority, serves to sanctify authority itself, including class authority. Who knows. To the extent that they subjugate people's minds to class interests, these faiths provide elites with a decisive and murderous advantage over societies that follow other types, and that's why most of those are gone now. It's inevitable, I think, for faiths that promote mass social organization and aggressive ideological conquest to triumph in this way -- it's all very darwinian. You talked about evolution preceding religion, and I don't disagree, but the two aren't really cleanly separable. The organic-ness of the world creeps in. Criticizing religion won't cause this darwinian dynamic to disappear, any more than it would cause evolution itself to screech to a halt.
Also, if you could press a button and make all religion disappear from the world, the fat cats would just lay hands on whatever system of assumptions was available and start their dirty dealing all over again. Religion HAS declined in the world, enormously so, so they're already doing this with the "secular" polytheism of technology, civilization, humanism, and self. Do YOU accept any part of this belief system, perchance? If you don't, you're one strange bird, and if you do, guess what? You're "religious." A recognized deity isn't necessary; anything people deem sacred becomes "God." That includes political doctrine.
Steven, did you get force-fed religion as a kid? I did, and I completely understand the impulse to blame all the world's ills on this thing, but I've also seen beyond it. Spiritual belief per se doesn't naturally lead to the problem you're describing; that comes from hierarchies and "leaders." The first time someone stood up and pulled this "I'm in charge here" shit and some big buck failed to perform his solemn duty of shoving a spear up this clown's ass, that's when we were all doomed.
Yes, but...
Date Edited: 05 Feb 2005 09:51:28 PM
Think of the personality disorder that presumes to know everything, and in effect tries to force others to believe this as well. I can't spend more than five minutes around one of these guys without thinking "Godammit, why didn't their parents just beat them more?" I also fantasize about taking this up myself. After another 10 minutes of being shouted down whenever I threaten to utter a syllable, I have to walk away before the fantasy becomes real. They're not always atheists by any means, but they are devout believers in "knowledge," and they embody the hazards of that faith.
The world just isn't as they imagine, or as ANYONE imagines. It's rational/linear and yet profoundly plural and organic at the same time, in a way that hopelessly outstrips our cognitive ability. At some point it becomes obnoxious to even pretend to understand it, and enlightenment comes only from knowing you're just a pebble on a beach. As to the "real" nature of the beach and all the rest of it, who really knows...
I challenge you to consider that this thing you're blaming on religion
"...have been used by our oppressors to create ideologies of obedience and to divide and conquer the people"
isn't really inherent to spiritual beliefs, but to class. Fight the real enemy. Starting around ten thousand years ago when they themselves were high priests (a class phenomenon), elites have brought all their means to bear on deranging faith into a pattern that delivers God-like power to THEM. There were a multitude of beliefs then, but these have been narrowed down to just the few that do this really well, which seem to be monotheisms. Perhaps a supreme father figure, i.e. a symbol of ultimate authority, serves to sanctify authority itself, including class authority. Who knows. To the extent that they subjugate people's minds to class interests, these faiths provide elites with a decisive and murderous advantage over societies that follow other types, and that's why most of those are gone now. It's inevitable, I think, for faiths that promote mass social organization and aggressive ideological conquest to triumph in this way -- it's all very darwinian. You talked about evolution preceding religion, and I don't disagree, but the two aren't really cleanly separable. The organic-ness of the world creeps in. Criticizing religion won't cause this darwinian dynamic to disappear, any more than it would cause evolution itself to screech to a halt.
Also, if you could press a button and make all religion disappear from the world, the fat cats would just lay hands on whatever system of assumptions was available and start their dirty dealing all over again. Religion HAS declined in the world, enormously so, so they're already doing this with the "secular" polytheism of technology, civilization, humanism, and self. Do YOU accept any part of this belief system, perchance? If you don't, you're one strange bird, and if you do, guess what? You're "religious." A recognized deity isn't necessary; anything people deem sacred becomes "God." That includes political doctrine.
Steven, did you get force-fed religion as a kid? I did, and I completely understand the impulse to blame all the world's ills on this thing, but I've also seen beyond it. Spiritual belief per se doesn't naturally lead to the problem you're describing; that comes from hierarchies and "leaders." The first time someone stood up and pulled this "I'm in charge here" shit and some big buck failed to perform his solemn duty of shoving a spear up this clown's ass, that's when we were all doomed.
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