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Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

George Cadman of Free Radio Santa Cruz, 101.1 fm, interviews Elise Cohen of the Fellowship of Reconciliation about her work with the organization and the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. George's show is called "Peace Talks" and is on Sundays from 3 to 6 pm.

Elise Cohen is a Sephardic Jew, born in Atlanta, Georgia. She is co vice-chair of the National Council of the Fellowship of Reconciliation. She has lived in Israel and worked with Palestinians and Israelis. She has also led three delegations to the Middle East, to Israel/Palestine and Iraq.

She will be leading a discussion on Wednesday, Jan. 26th at the Monterey Senior Center. The event starts at 7 pm. and is a strategy session to make commitments to Middle East peace work. The Monterey Peace and Justice Center is sponsoring the event.

Audio: Listen to the Stream or Download the mp3
Wednesday, January 26, Workshop on How to Work Effectively for the Palestinian People led by Elise Cohen of the Fellowship of Reconciliation. Potluck supper at 6, workshop at 7. Monterey Senior Center. Lighthouse and Dickman in Monterey. Sponsored by the Monterey Peace and Justice Center. Info: Valori 831-647-0152 or 831-373-1061

Monterey Senior Center
280 Dickman Avenue,
Monterey, CA 93940
(831) 646-3878

Founding of the Fellowship of Reconciliation

In 1914, an ecumenical conference was held in Switzerland by Christians seeking to prevent the outbreak of war in Europe. Before the conference ended, however, World War I had started and those present had to return to their respective countries. At a railroad station in Germany, two of the participants, Henry Hodgkin, an English Quaker, and Friedrich Sigmund-Schultze, a German Lutheran, pledged to find a way of working for peace even though their countries were at war. Out of this pledge Christians gathered in Cambridge, England in December 1914 to found the Fellowship of Reconciliation. The US FOR was founded one year later, in 1915.

The FOR has since become an interfaith and international movement with branches and groups in over 40 countries and on every continent. Today the membership of FOR includes Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and people of other faith traditions, as well as those with no formal religious affiliation.
 
 


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Comments

Cut the rhetoric--Give peace a chance!

I listened to George's show with Elise Cohen bracing myself for another onslaught of anti-Israel rhetoric. It never came.

Even when George repeatedly tried to raise anti-Israeli issues, Cohen never picked up the bait.

Cohen was very balanced in her view, careful not to condemn either side of the conflict, but to try to find opportunities for discussion and negotiation between the two sides.

My only complaint is that the websites she recommended are without exception, biased against Israel.

Elise Cohen is convinced that Israel is "illegally" occupying the West Bank and Gaza, which I disagree with. But the thrust of her arguments truly seemed to be aimed at finding ways to resolve the conflict so that the two people's will one day be able to live together in peace. I wish her success with her endeavors.
 

The REAL Becky Johnson

[for background on Iman al-Hams, go here www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm ]

It was tragic that the little 13 year old schoolgirl died when members of the IDF opened fire and killed her. But who is to blame?

CONSIDER THIS:

We KNOW that there have been over 100 suicide bombers who have been successful(?!), many of them were under age 18. Many more who were caught before they could cause any harm. We know that recruiters started to use female suicide bombers at some point. In the Jenin incursion of 2002, a 10 year old boy was used as a suicide bomber.

None of us really knows what happened on October 5th. We can only look at the evidence and listen to the different witness statements, and wait to hear what the investigators and the courts say.

We must sort out what is possible, what is likely, and what is certain.

We can't ever get closer to the truth than that.

It's possible the IDF saw a little girl in the forbidden zone and saw it as the perfect opportunity to kill yet another Palestinian child. Its possible, but not likely.

It is possible that Iman al-Hams was recruited to be a suicide bomber. It's more than possible. It's likely.

It's possible that she was told there was a bomb in the bag when there wasn't. All parties agree, there was no bomb in her backpack.

All parties agree she walked into a forbidden zone and was warned to leave.

All parties agree, she dropped her backpack before she was shot.

Again I ask. Was the place where she was killed directly on the route to her school or was she way off the track? If she was way off the track, that means its likely she was put up to it.

If she was put up to it by cynical adults, who wanted to use her bullet-ridden body for all the PR it would generate, and all the anti-Israel sentiment it would generate, then the true culprits are those adults who put her up to it. If this is true, then that means she WAS murdered with the murderers being the adults who put her up to it.

One thing we all know for certain. If she was put up to it, then the murderers were Palestinian.
 

The point Becky Johnson could not rebut

Israel is wildly destabilizing the entire global political equilibrium. There is no getting around the fact that Israel is far and away the largest grievance Islamists have with the West, is all but causative of this movements very existence, and as such is almost certainly the largest reason 9-11 happened. Take away Israel's existence, or our inconcievably huge support of same, and I daresay 9-11 would not have happened. 9-11 in turn has transformed the United States, the most powerful country in history, into a nation of reactionary "kill 'em all" meatheads led by a cabal of gloating overt fascists. You know what, Becky? ISRAEL ISN'T WORTH THAT. Israel isn't worth what this country is turning into now, isn't worth what this country will make the rest of the planet turn into simply by way of surviving. Unlike you, I don't make Israel the centerpiece of my entire belief system. I truly love this planet, I desperately want it to be whole and sane, so I don't want to see it spiral down the shitter just so 15 million Jews can get their age-old political fantasy fulfilled. And no, that's not about Jews. It could be 15 million Greenland Inuits. Take your 0.23 percent of humanity from wherever you wish, the same logic still holds.

When you insist that yes, that 0.23 percent should get everything they want, even if that means jackbooted global empire for the other 6.4 BILLION, well Becky, THAT'S WHAT I CALL BIGOTRY. You see, being a bigot doesn't just mean you hate some other group. Even more than that, it means your sympathies go out exclusively to one particular group, usually your own.
 

It was a non-point

So there was nothing to rebut. Drivel never registers as a point. In a sense it refutes itself.
 

Gee, how brilliant

"Drivel never registers as a point. In a sense it refutes itself."

Oh no, PLEASE, don't hurt me! I've been crushed by your promethean intellect (muffled mirth).

So. I guess this means you can't rebut it either, huh, super-genius? Yeah, it's looking like I'm on to something...
 

Becky Johnson Says Killing Little Arab Girls Is Good

Becky, you state this

"All parties agree, there was no bomb in her backpack."

whilst slithering your way toward this:

"It is possible that Iman al-Hams was recruited to be a suicide bomber. It's more than possible. It's likely."

Here, I'll clear it all up for you: you're insane. No, really, I mean it this time. Absent any evidence that she actually had a bomb, your whole case that Iman was in fact a suicide bomber becomes pure conjecture of an incredibly vicious sort. This is your most hate-poisoned apologetic demonstration yet. Congratulations.

Amnesty International has frequently condemned violence against Palestinian and Israeli children. In a 20 November 2004 statement, the organization said:

"Many killings of Palestinian children by Israeli armed forces have been unlawful, as wilful, killings resulting from acts including reckless shooting, tank and aircraft shelling and bombardments and house destruction. As such these killings are grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention and therefore war crimes. Such killings have been part of widespread, as well as systematic, acts against Palestinian civilians. They have been carried out by Israeli armed forces pursuant to government policy, evidenced by the knowledge and approval of government authorities who are fully aware that for over four years such practices have consistently resulted in the killing or injury of civilians and who have declined to take effective steps to prevent such killings of civilians. They, therefore, meet the definition of crimes against humanity under international law."

Amnesty also highlighted that:

"In their daily lives, Palestinian children throughout the Occupied Territories have also been exposed to an increasingly high level of violence and violations of many of their rights including the right to education, to an adequate standard of living, to the highest attainable standard of health, to safe and secure housing, and to freedom of movement. For four years many have been confronted with Israeli army aircraft circling the sky or launching missiles, and with Israeli army tanks outside their homes and schools. Their villages and neighbourhoods have been kept under siege and they have often been confined to their homes for days and weeks at a time by curfews and closures. They have been forced to go through military checkpoints to get to school or to take long detours and to climb over blockades or in and out of ditches in order to visit relatives or to go to the doctor."

Source: web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE020022004

The vast majority of killings are never investigated and rarely are the killers punished by Israeli authorities.
 

You're putting words into her mouth

Someone else posted that and may have tweaked the text to tar her.

What's up with the utterly dishonest tactic you hardcore pro-Palestinian folks employ? I mean the way you severely distort someone's words to the contortions you want, e.g. "Becky Johnson Says Killing Little Arab Girls Is Good". Frankly, you people are quite detestable if only for using this tactic to delegitimized your opponents.

Amnesty's reports aren't beyond reproach. Their condemnations of Palestinian human rights breaches are mostly issued in a disclaimer kind of manner.

When will you join me to call on the PA to start punishing for real Palestinians who perpetrate attacks on non-combatants?
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

We do, but your not listening....
 

Where?

I haven't seen you doing it here on this site over the last weeks. You've picked the wrong guy to lie to.
 

Re: You're putting words into her mouth

Every single word attributed to her in the post titled 'The REAL Becky Johnson' is 100% unadulterated Becky. Not only did the original have her name on it, but it's also a good example of her weird affected rhetorical style.

Its the rabid screaming defenders of the zionist mafia state whose methods are "utterly dishonest," and your own bullshit is a great example.
 

I have repeatedly opposed all murderous attacks on civilians

I have repeatedly opposed all murderous attacks on civilians.

Most of these attacks are carried out by the chauvinistic Israeli government, a government that not only denies basic rights, but also routinely terrorizes the civilian population.

The PA cannot stop attacks carried out by extremist Islamic groups like Hamas any more than the Israeli government can, although they have tried. The Israeli government, in helping create Hamas, and in creating the conditions for Hamas to recruit, is far more responsible for anti-Semitic attacks on Hebrew speaking civilians than the PA.

When will YOU join me to call on the Israeli government to start punishing for real the soldiers and settlers who perpetrate attacks on non-combatants?

Here is one of my condemnations of attacks on civilians that I posted earlier:

The cities of Ramallah and Jenin have been laid to waste by the
Zionists just as the Nazis smashed the towns of Guarnica and Lidice in
the name of collective punishment. Likewise the heroic resistance of
Palestinian fighters in the face of superior military force is
reminiscent of the Jewish fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto and Vilna.

The Israeli offensive will not stop those willing to do suicide
missions against civilians, attacks that are futile attempts to combat
the genocide Palestinians face. The Israeli offensive does the
opposite in deepening the conditions that created suicide bombers in
the first place. The anger created is by escalated Israeli murder is
actually more likely to increase the number tragic of attacks on
Hebrew civilians. At the same time Israel has not targeted the main
base of the suicide bombers, Gaza, where Hamas is heavily organized.
In fact, the murderous Israeli repression really isn't meant to stop
attacks on Hebrew civilians because these bombings by Hamas actually
play right into the Zionist government's aims and objectives in
pushing for a final solution against the Palestinian people and the
Palestinian Authority who the Israeli government consistently blame
for the attacks by Hamas.

Hamas is an anti-Semitic fundamentalist religious organization that
killed 150 Israeli civilians through suicide bombings between 1994 and
1998 alone. From its beginnings as the Mujama in the 1970s to this
day Hamas does not face the same kind of repression as any other
Palestinian group. In addition Hamas reportedly receives $28 million
dollars a year from another key U.S. ally in the region, Saudi Arabia.

The U.S. and the Saudi Arabian monarchy work together closely to
systematically loot Saudi Arabia's oil resources for the profits of
U.S. oil monopolies while the vast majority of the Saudi people live
in poverty. In addition the U.S., Saudi Arabia, and Hamas worked
together closely in the U.S. war drive to destroy the left progressive
PDPA government that held power in Afghanistan from 1978 to 1992.
This was a war where the U.S. government and Saudi Arabia gave
billions of dollars of military aid to Osama Bin Laden and the Islamic
fundamentalists of the Mujahedin who were waging a holy war against
the advances in women's rights, including women's literacy, that were
occurring under the PDPA government. Tactics of the Mujahedin
included throwing acid in the faces of women liberated from the veil
and murdering women for teaching little girls how to read and write.
Fearing a Mujahedin government right on its border and defending the
PDPA government from U.S. aggression the Soviet Union sent troops into
Afghanistan in 1979. Although these Soviet troops were invited by the
Afghan PDPA U.S. propaganda called this a Soviet invasion.

An estimated 100,000 of the Islamic fundamentalists who fought in
Afghanistan were recruited by the CIA outside of Afghanistan. Hamas
participated in this activity. As John Cooley from ABC news pointed
out on March 13th, 1996 in the International Herald Tribune: "A key
Hamas organizer was Abdallah Azzam. He was a tough, brilliant and
charismatic Palestinian from Jordan. He supervised training for the
CIA's Afghan guerrillas in Peshawar, Pakistan, where a car bomb killed
him in 1989. In the earlier 1980s he toured the United States,
recruiting Arab-Americans for the anti-Soviet jihad in Afghanistan."

Just as the United States used Hamas against the Afghani people and
the leftist PDPA government, Israel has used the religious
fundamentalists of Hamas as a club against the socialist and secular
nationalist movements in Palestine that Hamas has violently opposed.
It is those secular and socialist movements that Israel has seen as
more of a threat in terms of winning the masses of people, including
Hebrew speakers, over to positions of sympathy and solidarity with the
Palestinians. Hamas's suicide bombers against civilians instead serve
Zionist interests in driving a larger wedge between Palestinians and
Hebrew speakers, people who will need to unite against their common
oppressor and killer, the Israeli Zionist government.

Early Israeli support for Hamas included in 1978 the granting of
Mujama charitable status in Gaza while other organizations, especially
political organizations as Mujama was, could not get such status. In
1979 Israeli collusion with the Mujama movement set up the Islamic
University of Gaza whose anti-PLO and anti-socialist slogan was: "How
can uncovered women and men with Beatle haircuts liberate our holy
places?" Students who did not tow the Islamic line were disciplined
through brutal beatings and sometimes had acid thrown in their faces.
In addition Mujama mobs were allowed to violently attack and burn
down PLO controlled institutions at a time when other street
demonstrations were not allowed or tightly controlled by the Israeli
authorities.

In 1979 the Mujama movement burned the Palestinian Red Crescent
Society's (PRC) building to the ground. In response the PRC issued
the following statement, "The tacit approval of the authorities, if
not their actual connivance in what happened, was displayed in their
attitude of non-interference. While they usually display great
alertness to combating even peaceful demonstrations of young students
within schools, here they stood indifferently watching a violently
destructive demonstration march to its objectives."

In 1988 Hamas was formed out of Mujama. While PLO supporters were
organizing mass demonstrations in the streets Hamas was instead
focusing on shooting Israeli soldiers. Despite this fact Hamas had
top-level meetings with the Israeli government while that same
government would not even meet with the PLO. Milton Edwards in
"Islamic Politics In Palestine" noted the relationship: "The
relationship between Hamas and the Israeli authorities was, however,
at the strongest during the second year of the Intifada. The Israelis
had been quick to extend legitimacy status to Hamas in an attempt to
marginalize the PLO. Leaders of Hamas were regularly filmed at
meetings with top-level Israeli officials and the message the Israelis
were sending out was that they regarded Hamas as the type of people
with whom they could work…

"In addition the Israelis continued turning a blind eye to large
amounts of money coming into the country destined for Hamas coffers,
while at the same time stopping the flow of PLO funds in support of
the Intifada."

In 1994 Hamas began its indiscriminate attacks on Hebrew speaking
people through suicide bombings. Those suicide bombings had been
stepped up by Hamas in the beginnings of the Intifada 2 uprising in
September 2000, but then ended due to an agreement between Arafat's
Palestinian Authority and Hamas. While this agreement was in effect
world attention became focused on the gunning down of Palestinian
children by Israeli sharp shooters on the West Bank. For the Zionist
government this was becoming a public relations disaster.

Israeli Prime Minister Sharon needed a new provocation he could use
as propaganda to escalate the war against the Palestinian people and
the Palestinian Authority (P.A.). To create this provocation he took
action to end the truce between the P.A. and Hamas on ending the
suicide bombings of civilians. On November 23rd Israeli security
forces assassinated Hamas leader Mahmud Abu Hunud. On November 25th,
2001 right-wing Israeli journalist Alex Fishman accurately observed in
the "Yediot Achronot": "Whoever gave the green light to this act of
liquidation knew full well that he is thereby shattering in one blow
the gentleman's agreement between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority;
under that agreement, Hamas was to avoid in the near future suicide
bombings inside the Green Line."

Of course no one but Sharon could have given the green light for
such an important operation. Sharon's provocation against the Hamas
anti-Semites had its intended affect. Within days Hamas resumed
attacks against Israeli civilians. In March a Hamas bomber killed 25
civilians in the Passover attack that was then used by Sharon as his
excuse to attack the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority.

The U.S. government's massive military support to the Zionist State
and, to a lesser extent to the repressive Saudi Arabian monarchy is
responsible for the bloodshed in Palestine. The racist state of
Israel currently receives 300,000 dollars per hour in U.S. military
and economic aid. The F-16 bombers, Apache and Cobra helicopters used
in the latest attacks are just some of the weapons used to kill
Palestinians that are made in the United States.

Socialists stand for an end to U.S. military aid to Israel and all
of the crowned princes, sheiks, emirs, and Islamic fanatics of the
Middle East. We understand that these U.S. policies are the policies
of both the Democrat and Republican Parties. Imperialist policy isn't
the result of some misunderstanding by these parties of the wealthy.
Instead the repressive and genocidal policies of U.S. imperialism flow
from the drive for profits by the rapacious U.S. capitalists that rule
America and much of the world. From this understanding socialists
know that the only way we will get a just foreign policy, fair
treatment of workers and the poor, and sound ecological policies is
through a socialist revolution in the United States.
 

Steve, the early Zionists WERE socialists!!

And largely non-religious ones at that!

Currently Israel is a democratically elected socialist government which supports private industry (capitalism). It is also the national homeland for Jews anywhere in the world. Why this gives you, an American, the right to pass judgement and to call for dismantling Israel, is beyond my understanding.

Oh and Stevie boy--you know how you are always griping about those roads that "only the Jews can drive on". Well, they WERE built by Jews with Jewish money, BUT, anyone can drive on them. Palestinians only need to apply for a permit which determines whether they are a wanted terrorist or not. If not, they get a permit. Palestinian cab drivers use Israeli roads all the time.
 

Steve is so anti-Israel he can't bear to say its name

Steve wrote: "Those suicide bombings had been
stepped up by Hamas in the beginnings of the Intifada 2 uprising in September 2000, but then ended due to an agreement between Arafat's
Palestinian Authority and Hamas."

Well Steve, you can argue till the cows come home how Sharon "wrecked" some kind of Hamas ceasefire, but look at this article from the Jerusalem Post on Jan. 10th, 2005

An exerpt:

"...hundreds of students attended a rally organized by Hamas at Bir Zeit University, where they called for more suicide attacks against Israel.

"Oh suicide bomber, wrap yourself with an explosive belt and fill the scene with blood," chanted a chorus of five male students at the rally, held by the Hamas-affiliated Islamic List to mark the ninth anniversary of the killing of Hamas bomb-maker Yehya Ayyash, better known as "The Engineer."

Oh and Steve, I'm real sick of your "Hebrew-speakers" nomenclature instead of the real word "Israelis." Are you aware that Arabic is also an official language in Israel, on an equal par with Hebrew? Not every Israeli speaks Hebrew!!
 

Surrender to Arab terror for Peace? A bad trade

Dear Nemesis,
I don't think your overbroad essay which blames Israel for being the object of Arab hatred proves anything--except that YOU advocate cowardice when dealing with those who have launched vicious and unwarranted attacks on US civilians.

Your claim that US support for Israel was the "cause" of the 9/11 attack discounts Bin Laden's own statements which clearly show his ire was mostly directed at the presence of US soldiers on the Holy Lands of Islam. Yes, Israel was on the list, but pretty low down on a list of about 10 'causes'. Do you advocate American women stop wearing bikinis? That was on his list too!!

Since all of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi Arabian, it is entirely understandable why you would blame Israel for the attack. You are an anti-semite! Logic and evidence have nothing to do with it!!

Here is an example of your brilliant logic:

"When you insist that yes, that 0.23 percent should get everything they want, even if that means jackbooted global empire for the other 6.4 BILLION, well Becky, THAT'S WHAT I CALL BIGOTRY"

What have I insisted the Israelis 'get'? I think they should not have to suffer attacks on their civilian population by unchecked Palestinian terror groups.

Israel should not have to defend itself against specious attacks that it is an Apartheid state, that it is racist, that it is Imperialist, that it is colonialist, or that it is genociding the Palestinians. NONE of these statements are true.

What have I advocated that Israel get other than the recognition of its right to exist as a Jewish State somewhere in the mideast.

What will the 2nd Jewish holocaust (the elimination of Israel and the genocide of the Israeli Jews)accomplish for world peace?

You may not believe it, but every day, Israel fights for its very existance against a people who are REALLY intent on genocide, per the quote above in my previous comment.

How will US support for Israel cause "jackbooted global empire for 6.4 billion people?" I see aid to Israel being used to defend Israel from attacks. You are leaping to a huge and irrational generalization which I for one find unconvincing.
 

You mean like Menachim Begin and Vladimir Jabotinsky?

Becky Propagandist: "the early Zionists WERE socialists!!"

=======================================================================

Becky Propagandist: "Israel is a democratically elected socialist government"

Would that be a "democratic" govt like the Native American massacring, pre-1865 slave state of America, or the pre-Suffrage state of America -- an America where until 1920 the majority of the people in the U.S. weren't even allowed to vote (and for Blacks, not really until 1965) -- or the then apartheid state of South Africa?

"A[n ideologically and semi-theocratically] Jewish state" cannot -- BY *DEFINITION* -- be a true democracy -- no more than any slave state, or state that denies women the right to vote, or a 'racially'-defined (or religio-ethnically-defined) state or apartheid state. A Zionist state -- BY *DEFINITION* -- cannot be a true democracy. Period.
 

Hey Becky are you a leftie who believes in absolutely equal rights for ALL people in Palestine...

~

...*REGARDLESS* OF RACE, ETHNICITY, OR RELIGION?

~

Becky Propagandist: "Steve is so anti-Israel he can't bear to say its name"

Hey Becky can *you* bear to say "Israeli Palestinian" or even "Palestinian"?

~
 

The sooner you accept Israel, the sooner there will be peace

JA--I just did a google search on myself. I used the fields "Becky Johnson" and "Palestinian" and 1550 hits came up! Obviously you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Steve Argue studiously avoids acknowledging Israel as a legitimate state, calls for its dismantlement, and calls it "Palestine" which is such a huge insult to Jewish people when you consider that the Romans renamed "Israel" with the name "Palestine" after they burned down their temple.
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

Hey, I learned how to use Google, too. I'm smart! I also typed in the words, "Becky Johnson" & "Palestinians" then hit, I'm Feeling Lucky! Here's what I learned about Becky:

JTR Comment: This is a reply by David Meir-Levi, described at one web site as "an American-born Israeli) to Jennifer Winkler (who has an article about Jewish "chutzpah" (obnoxiousness) posted at this web site). Meir-Levi's text was emailed to us by "Becky Johnson." Judging by what we found in a search of her email address on the Internet, Ms. Johnson is a quintessential self-deluding Jewish (or married to one?) "leftist." One one hand, she's an activist for the "homeless" in Santa Cruz, California. Swell. On the other hand, when it comes to Jewish identity, she turns the tables completely: she is an ideological activist/apologist in the enforced homelessness of the Palestinian people by the apartheid Israeli state. Hers is a classic case of shameless, two-faced, Judeocentric hypocrisy. (Her article shafting the Palestinians concludes with this: "This article can be reprinted at no cost by not for profit organizations that work for social justice." Such a comment is immoral, corrupt, grotesque, and obscene.)]
 

Jewish Tribal Review is an anti-semitic website

So I am condemned for allowing my articles to be reprinted for free by organizations which work for social justice?

Wow, some kind of expose there!

I am not a self-deluding Jew. I am not Jewish.
The article questions whether I am an activist for the homeless of Santa Cruz. So much for them knowing much at all about me.

But the issue is not about me. I am only one person talking. Either my ideas have merit or they are full of shit. Each reader can be his/her own judge.

The issue is whether Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish State. JTR does not think so and spins page after page of hate-filled anti-Israel diatribe. I couldn't have been dissed by a better group of bigots!

I am motivated by the unfair and often innacurate claims which the local "peace" organizations crank out. The RCNV is a case in point. WILPF is pretty biased against Israel as well.

I do not support homelessness for Palestinians (or anyone!!). I agree that we need to find a solution so they are no longer stateless citizens, have a say in their own government, and enjoy a decent standard of living. I do not support transfer, unless its voluntary.

My problem with the Palestinians is A) they don't really want an independent state living in peace alongside of Israel and B) They have developed a culture which glorifies death and shamelessly exploits its own children.
 

speaking of exploitation...

"Roma, too, were targets of the Nazi’s cold, calculated extermination programs, though anyone who suggested the Roma should have been allowed to “return? to their north India ancestral homelands (which they left circa 1400) to avert the Nazi’s elimination of 200,000 them, or that the Nazi’s efforts at anti-Roma genocide might justify the post-war herding of north Indians into ghettos to make room for the Roma [Roma nation-state, ethnically cleansed of everyone else, in India], would be dismissed, deservedly, as a crank." - Stephen Gowan

sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/01/1709840_comment.php
_____________________________________________________________________________


"Israel is a good place to watch the giant wave of gentile penitence, the Auschwitz Remembrance Day that lasts for a week, rolling around the globe.

...

"But if it seen everywhere, why is Israel such a good place to watch the [Auschwitz Remembrance] Penitence Day? Because only here you won’t have an illusion that ‘the lesson’ refers to unacceptability of racism or of ethnic cleansing or of cold-blooded murder.

...

"Raul Wallenberg was a royal Swede who saved many Jews and was killed by the Russians. There was another royal Swede who saved many Jews and was killed by the Jews – Folke Bernadotte – but he is forgotten even in Stockholm, where a Jewish millionaire bought a new TV channel this week to ensure this forgetfulness.

...

"There are a few Arabs around the round table: a young student and a Member of Knesset. They try to speak of racism, but their fluent Hebrew was not understood: racism is something done to Jews, not by Jews.

...

"The TV set brings in more news: three-year old Palestinian girl, Rahma Abu Shamas, was killed Wednesday morning by Israeli army, thus defusing somewhat the demographic threat.

...

"When the Air Force commander Dan Halutz was asked what does the pilot feel releasing a one ton bomb over densely populated Gaza refugee camp and killing fifteen children, he replied: “A slight bump. I sleep well?."

- Israel Shamir

www.israelshamir.net/english/Penitence.htm
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

"The sooner you accept Israel, the sooner there will be peace" Becky Johnson

"The sooner you accept German occupation, the sooner there will be peace" Adolf Hitler
 

Israel Is Built On Racism

Becky Johnson hates Palestinians and thinks that some non-existent all-knowing "God" in the sky gave Palestine to the Zionists. With this she denies that the Palestinians were the original inhabitants that had a vibrant culture, agriculture, and civilization before the Zionists began murdering, terrorizing, and evicting them from their land.

She says this is not true, that there is archeological evidence from 3,000 years ago… blah, blah, blah. Archeological evidence? So what? There is also evidence of Homo erectus inhabiting the land about 700,000 years ago. This is just as relevant to the debate on whether or not Palestinians should have equal rights to Jews.

The nonsense "logic? of Becky Johnson generally refutes itself.

Then Becky Johnson had to come up with this one: "More Nazis died in World War II than Americans. Did that mean the Germans were the victims and the Americans the perpetrators?"

The difference you lunatic Zionist is that the Nazis had power and the Palestinians do not.

Yet the Zionists will claim that the little PA Bantustans with no base for an economy and their hand picked Uncle Tom PA capitalist leaders constitute Palestinian power.

The war in Palestine is caused by the extreme injustices of the Zionist government. It is not a result of something inherently evil in the character of the Palestinian people, as these raving Zionists would have us think.

As for Becky Johnson's support for the murder of a 13 year-old Palestinian child, people who think that her arguments may be persuasive would do well to ask Becky Johnson for sources on her endless stream of made-up facts.
 

Revolutionary Socialism Versus Zionism In The Fight against Hitler

The Zionist misnamed, “Just A Thought? (from here on referred to as “JAT?) thinks they are pointing out a weakness in the following quote:

JAT writes, “Finally Steve you start your article by saing [sic] that "Hitler seized power in 1933 with a clear fascistic program that called for the annihilation of all socialists, communists, labor
leaders, and Jews." You've done very well to decide on the outcome of an enourmous [sic] historical deabte [sic] about the nature of the Holoucast [sic] in one line. Can you maybe explain to everyone in another article or in a post why it is that it was so clear and where the weaknesses of cumilitave [sic] radicalisation [sic] lie? Please just because you think some people with zero knowledge might read your article and believe it you should still have enough self respect to do the proper research before writing it!?

Just because “JAT? has zero knowledge of the clear program that brought Hitler to power, does not mean that all are unaware of this important history. Likewise it does not mean that I have not done the proper research. Yet “JAT? insists I spell things out.

In 1932, before Hitler had taken power Leon Trotsky wrote of the situation in Germany:

“The system based on bureaucratic decrees is unstable, unreliable, temporary. Capitalism requires another, more decisive policy. The support of the Social Democrats, keeping a suspicious watch on their own workers, is not only insufficient for its purposes, but has already become irksome. The period of halfway measures has passed. In order to try to find a way out, the bourgeoisie must absolutely rid itself of the pressure exerted by the workers’ organizations; these must be eliminated, destroyed, utterly crushed.

“At this juncture, the historic role of fascism begins. It raises to their feet those classes that are immediately above the proletariat and that are ever in dread of being forced down into its ranks; it organizes and militarizes them at the expense of finance capital, under the cover of the official government, and it directs them to the extirpation of proletarian organizations, from the most revolutionary to the most conservative.

“Fascism is not merely a system of reprisals, of brutal force, and of police terror. Fascism is a particular governmental system based on the uprooting of all elements of proletarian democracy within bourgeois society. The task of fascism lies not only in destroying the Communist vanguard but in holding the entire class in a state of forced disunity. To this end the physical annihilation of the most revolutionary section of the workers does not suffice. It is also necessary to smash all independent and voluntary organizations, to demolish all the defensive bulwarks of the proletariat, and to uproot whatever has been achieved during three-quarters of a century by the Social Democracy and the trade unions.? (Vital Questions For The Germ Proletariat January 27, 1932) marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/index.htm

In another work by Trotsky before Hitler took power Trotsky wrote:

"Fascism has opened up the depths of society for politics.
Today, not only in peasant homes but also in the city skyscrapers,
there lives alongside of the 20th century the 10th or 13th. A hundred
million people use electricity and still believe in the magic power
of signs and exorcisms. What inexhaustible reserves they possess of
darkness, ignorance, and savagery! Despair has raised them to their
feet, fascism has given them a banner. Everything that should have
been eliminated from the national organism in the course of the
unhindered development of society comes out today gushing from the
throat: capitalist society is puking up the undigested barbarism.
Such is the physiology of National Socialism...Fascism has become a
real danger as an acute expression of the helpless position of the
bourgeois regime, the conservative role of the Social Democracy in
this regime, and the accumulated powerlessness of the Communist Party
to abolish it... Worker-communists, you are hundreds of thousands,
millions; you cannot leave for anywhere; there are not enough
passports for you. Should fascism come to power, it will ride over
your skulls and spines like a terrific tank. Your salvation lies in
merciless struggle. And only a fighting unity with the Social
Democratic workers can bring victory."

It seems that with Trotsky's historic and class analysis of society he had no trouble disserning the threat posed by Hitler.

Compare this revolutionary socialist position of Leon Trotsky to the role played by the Zionist movement. Here is my full quote that “JAT’ chose to attempt to attack:

“Hitler seized power in 1933 with a clear fascistic program that
called for the annihilation of all socialists, communists, labor
leaders, and Jews. Despite this fact the Zionist Federation of
Germany sent the Nazi Party a memorandum on June 21, 1933 stating: "…a
rebirth of national life such as is occurring in German life … must
also take place in the Jewish national group. On the foundation of
the new [Nazi] state, which has established itself on the principle of
race, we wish to fit our community into the total structure so that
for us, too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the
Fatherland is possible…." (Brenner, Zionism, pg. 48).

?The policy of supporting Hitler was later upheld at the World
Zionist Organization Congress in 1933 where a motion to take action
against Hitler was defeated 240 to 43. Thus the Jewish boycott of the
German economy at a time of economic weakness and vulnerability was
broken with the World Zionist Organization's Anglo Palestine Bank
resuming trade. In fact the World Zionist Organization became the
principal distributors of Nazi goods in Northern Europe and the Middle
East. (Ralph Schoeneman, The Hidden History of Zionism)
 

Sick to death of Becky "Bullshit" Johnson

"...YOU advocate cowardice when dealing with those who have launched vicious and unwarranted attacks on US civilians."

Ah, so 'turning the other cheek' is cowardly now? Clearly, these are the words of someone who's never tried it. You're the one whose thoughts and actions are driven by mindless fear, bigotry, and/or greed.

"What have I insisted the Israelis 'get'?"

Well Becky for one thing you've taken positions like this:
"Elise Cohen is convinced that Israel is "illegally" occupying the West Bank and Gaza, which I disagree with."
And have otherwise intimated your conviction that Israel is entitled to 100% of British-mandated Palestine. That's what I'm talking about, and it's obvious, but you slither around THIS issue because you're a vile lying snake.

"Israel should not have to defend itself against specious attacks that it is an Apartheid state, that it is racist, that it is Imperialist, that it is colonialist, or that it is genociding the Palestinians. NONE of these statements are true."

Yeah they are. Every last one of them. So what if you can't see it -- you can't think your way out of a paper bag full of runny dogshit, and everyone here keeps proving it by pounding your ass to a bloody pulp

"What have I advocated that Israel get other than the recognition of its right to exist as a Jewish State somewhere in the mideast."

Why in the Middle East? If Westerners want Jews to have a homeland so bad, I say they give them New Jersey and quit fucking with the Arabs

"Israel fights for its very existance against a people who are REALLY intent on genocide"

This is the same "logic" employed by every bigot in history: "well OF COURSE we're crushing them out of existence, they're a THREAT to us! WuAAAAAAAAAAuuh!! (That is, you know, they would be if they had, like, weapons and stuff. Oh God, they'd be just killing the shit out of us then!)"

"How will US support for Israel cause "jackbooted global empire for 6.4 billion people?""

No, you're playing stupid again and muddling my meaning. I'm getting really sick of your childish bullshit games. You took how many days to come up with this reply, and this is the best you can do? This is not surprising, really: you're pathetically full of shit, so bullshit like this is all you can offer. I don't think you could be truthful if your life literally depended on it.

Israel has been the most dangerous geopolitical time bomb in the world for many decades now. With 9-11, the Arab-Israeli conflict has finally come home to Israel's biggest sponsor, the most powerful country in history, which has been sent spinning out of control toward fascism by this blowback. Being the most powerful country on earth by far, the United States has the wherewithal to drag the rest of the planet down into fascism along with it, and in fact had already been working doggedly toward this very goal even before 9-11. If you actually know anything about leftist historical theory, as you claim to, you should find none of this the least bit outrageous or unlikely. But then you ARE a lying manipulative asshole, so of course you WILL pretend to not understand any of this...
 

Becky "Bullshit" Johnson, pt. II

"Your claim that US support for Israel was the "cause" of the 9/11 attack discounts Bin Laden's own statements which clearly show his ire was mostly directed at the presence of US soldiers on the Holy Lands of Islam. Yes, Israel was on the list, but pretty low down on a list of about 10 'causes'."

So, Becky, why do you suppose your pal CT doesn't fuck with me anymore? It's because I kicked his ass clear to the moon on this point. Here, I'll play it back for you:

"Our work targets world infidels. Our enemy is the crusader alliance led by America, Britain and Israel. It is a crusader-Jewish alliance."

— Osama bin Laden, from a TIME interview, 1998

original article here:
www.time.com/time/covers/1101010924/wosama.html

The article goes on to state: "Bin Laden has spoken out against Israel, which he, like many Muslims, regards as an alien and aggressive presence on land belonging to Islam. Lately, he has lauded the current Palestinian uprising against Israel's continued occupation of Palestinian territories."

Also Rachid al-Ghannouchi, a Tunisian Islamist leader:

Zionism, then, nurtured by and in turn nurturing this global pseudo-civilization, represents a secular onslaught on the heart of our Islamic nation. The Islamic project, by contrast, is its polar opposite, representing the hope that human civilization can be rescued from this new worship of the golden calf To speak of saving Palestine from the Zionists is to speak simultaneously of one's hope for a global liberation. The 'Palestinian cause' does not signify the simple reconquest of a patch of territory occupied by aggressors. It is not even about peace and war; Its implications go much further. For to strike at Zionism in Palestine is to strike at the enemy in its new citadel, which it has constructed at the center of the world, in the very heart of our Muslim nation, in a land which has always been of unlimited strategic and spiritual fecundity. The West, as a civilization, seems set to extend its influence to the heartland of the Old World, the better to destroy the surviving traces of spiritual resistance which have remained intact there, and finally to obliterate mans remaining hopes for the rebirth of a civilization which is qualitative and humane, rather than quantitative and secular."

Full article here: www.iap.org/globalagenda.htm

This one's about the Islamic Brotherhood, perhaps the most secretive, venerable, and powerful Islamist organization in the world, which gave us Ayman Zawahiri (Osama bin Laden's deputy), sheik Omar Abdel Rahman (the WTC bomber of 1993), and Khalid Sheik Mohammed (the "architect" of 9-11):

"Muslim activists who know current and former Brotherhood sympathizers in this country say bitter opposition to Israel is a key part of Brotherhood beliefs. Law enforcement sources say hundreds of current and former Ikhwan supporters nationwide are under federal investigation for alleged financial support of Hamas and other Palestinian groups deemed terrorists by the U.S. government."

from middleeastinfo.org/article4735.html

Bin Laden doesn't speak for the entire movement. He's not the foremost Islamist leader, he's just the most infamous. Only a fear-stricken baby like you equates those two things.
 

self deluded retard

"why do you suppose your pal CT doesn't fuck with me anymore? It's because I kicked his ass clear to the moon on this point."

No, idiot. It's because I made my point and wasn't prepared to descend to the zoo level of your deranged ravings. Aided of course by your delusions of grandeur, you've manages to believe your self-suggestions that I stopped due to your ostensibly impeccable arguments, but that's a load of crap.

Becky Johnson is right on the mark on this point.
 

Bullshit, liar

You challenged me to document my claim, and then I did, and that's when you ran out of evasive maneuvers and shut your pie-hole for once. It's all plain for everyone to see:

santacruz.indymedia.org/feature/display/14165/index.php

CT's 13 pairs of legs will now become a blur as he scuttles over to this thread to post a "rebuttal" and prove me wrong. No preblemo. Just look at the dates. The post that got his ass kicked was made on 1/27, after which he disappears for five days and counting. This must be a new record for you, bullshit brain. What's wrong? Choke on some bullshit?
 

Antisemitic asshole "triumphant" in his own feverish mind

He didn't prove what I challenged him to, he's only imagining it and confusing his "victory" for reality. He's even contradicting himself as he lied there that I didn't challenge him to do squat. So which one is it?

As I've said, I'm not willing to play ball in a thread with a racist shithead where he is acting out his antisemitism in a blatant manner. The far Left should excoriate this "Warrior" and every other racist for the movement's common good. The sooner the better.
 

More of Becky's bullshit dies

"Jewish Tribal Review is an anti-semitic website"

Sometimes it does step over the line into this zone, but for the most part it's an incredible trove of information that is extremely useful for totally demolishing every category of zionist bullshit under the sun. I recommend it highly. The admin could use some donations, by the way.
 

Understatement of the week

"Sometimes it does step over the line into this zone"

Make that often times.
 

If anti-Semitism bothers you, CT...

Maybe you should stop contributing to its #1 cause

"Israel Needs To Do Some Soul Searching"

By Timothy D. Naegele
Israel Insider Magazine
August 13, 2003

"Can anyone be truly surprised by the rise of anti-Semitism around the world? Only someone who has been living in a time warp, or who was lost in the jungles of Borneo for years, can fail to know the reasons why.

"From the strong-arm tactics of those who have sought reparations from the Swiss and Germans (among others), to the occupation of Palestinian territories - and yes, the settlement policies and the oppression of Palestinians - to the attempted silencing of critics of Israel by labeling them as anti-Semites, such actions and similar policies have backfired.

"Instead of Israel being viewed as the righteous underdog, it is seen by many around the world as an immoral aggressor. Instead of standing for the rights of Jews and non-Jews alike - a shining beacon to the world, from those who survived one of history's worst nightmares - Israel's conduct has morphed into that of its Nazi oppressors in the eyes of many.

"Simon Wiesenthal once spoke about survivors of the Nazi Holocaust owing a duty to Jews and non-Jews to insure that other holocausts did not occur. Monuments have been erected to those who died at the hands of Hitler and his thugs, but the 30 million who died under Stalin during the 1930s are forgotten. So too are those who died in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, and the millions who have died in Africa and elsewhere.

"Instead of more monuments, the world needs even-handed examples of humanity by the survivors and their offspring to lead the way toward a better world for Palestinians and Jews alike, and for all who suffer injustice and oppression at the hands of others anywhere in the world. Until that happens, with due respect, Mr. Sharansky and others will be like boys crying in the night, wondering why there is lightening - and nightmares.

"America is Israel's only true ally in this world, and it provides extensive military, economic and diplomatic support, without which there would be no Israel; it would collapse both militarily and economically. Yet, the U.S. and Israel are not tied at the hip, and America will pursue its own best interests, which at times may diverge from those of Israel and Israelis - and vice versa.

"For years, America and others in Europe have carried water for Israel, and have earned enmity in the Arab world for doing so. Arabs and followers of Islam represent the dominant and ever-expanding population base of the Middle East, with increasingly influential American constituents, who cannot and will not be ignored.

"The Bushes - both George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush - have taken courageous but politically-risky steps to remove those who pose threats to Israel, and have presented Israel with opportunities that are unprecedented in this often-troubled world. Yet, they continue to be maligned in Israel; and it is time for Israel to seize those opportunities and to live up to the hopes of many non-Jews with its founding.

"Instead of convening forums to fight against anti-Semitism, as Mr. Sharansky suggests, Israel and Jews around the world should recognize that Israel's actions produce reactions; and instead of once again blaming others, Israelis need to do some soul-searching and address the root causes of the rise of anti-Semitism in recent years. It is clear that some Israelis know this all too well, but others seem to have their heads firmly planted in the ground.
 

Yep, blame the Jews or the "Zionists" for antisemitism

The classic line goes that the Jews, or at least the uppity amongst them, bring antisemitism on all Jews. Even practicing any Judaism or being organized in their own groups makes Jews culpable, as many Russian members of parliament claimed recently in a letter.
How dare Jews label such behavior antisemitic?!

And how dare some Jews strong-arm Swiss banks and some German firms into paying reparations and compensation after they had stalled for so long and weren't amenable to persuason attempts.

And how dare Israel defend itself from Palestinian terrorism. Israel, as a Jewish state, is not allowed to make any mistakes of excess as the Jews are a holy people that should be held to an angelic standard you won't even demand of the US.

And how dare any Jews settle in the disputed territories, even adjacent to the Green Line. To hell with the fact they're settled on disputed territory that wasn't stolen from any Arabs. The disputed territories should be made Jew-free. That's the only acceptable leftist line.

And how dare many Jews not be overly terrified with the fact Israel's conduct has morphed into that of its Nazi oppressors in the eyes of mnay.

And how dare Jews commemorate mainly their own genocided brethren rather than also the 30m. murdered by Stalin during the 1930s, and those massacred under the Khmer Rouge, and the millions who have died in Africa and elsewhere. The Jews must surpass all other nations in commemoration of their (the nations') own butchered brethren!

And how dare official Israel and Jews worldwide convene forums to fight against antisemitism when it's still a very dangerous problem in Europe and elsewhere around the globe?! Israel must capitulate instead to all the demands of the PA and even Hamas' agenda!


Don't mistake this comment as a rhetorical diatribe against the write, Timothy D. Naegele. I've composed it to show how asinine your position is.

His piece contains a refutation of one ridiculous claim made at times by some of you, namely that the US and Israel march in goosestep lock. Says D. Naegele, "the U.S. and Israel are not tied at the hip, and America will pursue its own best interests, which at times may diverge from those of Israel and Israelis - and vice versa." It's high time the idiots on the far Left internalize this truth which remains whether or not neo-cons are at the helm.
 

BULLSHIT BECKY & CRITICAL CRAP

"JA--I just did a google search on myself. I used the fields "Becky Johnson" and "Palestinian" and 1550 hits came up!"

WELL, I ONLY GOT 337 HITS, BUT THE RELEVANT SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT *IS* ...???


Bullshit Becky: "Your claim that US support for Israel was the "cause" of the 9/11 attack discounts Bin Laden's own statements which clearly show his ire was mostly directed at the presence of US soldiers on the Holy Lands of Islam. Yes, Israel was on the list, but pretty low down on a list of about 10 'causes'."

ACTUALLY, IT WAS IN ONE OF HIS *TOP* FIVE REASONS:

1) For the U.S. to get out of Saudi Arabia.

2) For the U.S. to stop meddling in the Saudi Arabian govt

3) For the U.S. to stop unequivocally supporting Israel's oppression of the Palestinians.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOW, BECKY, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER (from above)?:

Hey Becky are you a leftie who believes in absolutely equal rights for ALL people in Palestine...
by JA 30 Jan 2005

...*REGARDLESS* OF RACE, ETHNICITY, OR RELIGION?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Becky Propagandist: "Steve is so anti-Israel he can't bear to say its name"

Hey Becky can *you* bear to say "Israeli Palestinian" or even "Palestinian"?
_______________________________________________________________________________

Triumphant Warrior: "You challenged me to document my claim, and then I did, and that's when you ran out of evasive maneuvers and shut your pie-hole for once. It's all plain for everyone to see"

YO, WARRIOR! CRITICAL CRAP DOES THAT UP AT INDYBAY *ALL THE TIME*! -- THANKS TO *ME*!

ONLY IT'S BEEN A LOT MORE THAN *ONCE* THAT HE'S HAD TO SHUT HIS PIE HOLE AND SLINK OFF!

HA-HA-HA!!

(I SEE THAT BULLSHIT BECKY HAS HAD TO DO HER *OWN* SHARE OF DUCKIN' 'N DODGIN' TOO!)
 

Juif Antagoniste Jostles into a Jam

J.A.: "CRITICAL CRAP DOES THAT UP AT INDYBAY *ALL THE TIME*! -- THANKS TO *ME*!

ONLY IT'S BEEN A LOT MORE THAN *ONCE* THAT HE'S HAD TO SHUT HIS PIE HOLE AND SLINK OFF!"

Have I already told y'all JA's yet another deluded antisemitic soul?



J.A.: "ACTUALLY, IT WAS IN ONE OF HIS *TOP* FIVE REASONS:

1) For the U.S. to get out of Saudi Arabia.

2) For the U.S. to stop meddling in the Saudi Arabian govt

3) For the U.S. to stop unequivocally supporting Israel's oppression of the Palestinians."

We're supposed to take JA's word for it without any sources and/or URLs to back up his claim? Don't think so.

For someone with such shoddy debating skills, JA's one hell of an arrogant loudmouth.
 

the "Occupation" is not illegal but that doesn't mean its all for Israel

Truth (ha!) Warrior writes: "Elise Cohen is convinced that Israel is "illegally" occupying the West Bank and Gaza, which I disagree with."
And have otherwise intimated your conviction that Israel is entitled to 100% of British-mandated Palestine."

BECKY: The occupation is not illegal because of UN resolution 242 which was passed right after the 1967 war (which Israel won). This gave Israel authority to administer over Gaza and the west bank until "a just and lasting peace" could be formed. Since then, Israel has made peace with both Egypt and Jordan. It has been trying with the Palestinians but they dont really want peace.

Israel is not an "occupier" because that would mean that Israel is occupying another country. But the Palestinians have never gone thru the effort to found a country. the land Israel is "occupying" was taken over from Jordan and Egypt---not some country called Palestine.

The legal status of the West Bank and Gaza: they are unallocated portions of the British Mandate for Palestine-- a veritable no-man's land--- or disputed territories is most correct since both Jews and Palestinian Arabs have legitimate claims to the land.

Yes I think Palestinian Arabs can live there too. I see nothing wrong with Jews and Arabs living together, sharing the land. If Palestine ever comes into being, I see nothing wrong with some of its citizens being Jewish.
 

Israel really must fight for its very existence

"Israel fights for its very existance against a people who are REALLY intent on genocide"

Are you saying the Arabs don't really want to drive the Jews into the sea? Are you saying Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan,and Egypt were just kidding when they massed their armies and attacked Israel is 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973?

Israel is not just being paranoid. They do fear annihilation. They do feel their very survival is based on being armed to the teeth.

I asked you ""How will US support for Israel cause "jackbooted global empire for 6.4 billion people?"

Your answer, peppered with insults aimed at me, was some kind of wandering essay on how 9/11 has made the USA more fascist. I would tend to agree with you that the Patriot act is a piece of shit and wouldn't have stopped 9/11 anyway. But what does that have to do with Israel????

I SUPPOSE you are trying to blame Israel for the 9/11 attacks. but thats crazy . it was Islamic Arabs (all Saudis) who performed those attacks. Don't you think maybe we should turn our attention to the Islamic Arabs? and maybe the Saudis???

IF you are saying the Islamic Arabs attacked us because we support Israel, then what do you think we should do about it?

If a bank robber holds up a gun to a frightened bank teller and says "give me all your money" do you think we should let them have the money (since they are so poor) and then blame the bank for having money in the first place?

Do you think that giving in to a bully brings peace? there is no logical reasoning with al Qaeda in the first place. they really do hate us for our bikinis.
 

But Steve Argue still can't say the name Israel

to JA: YOU said that I don't use the word "Palestinian" but when I did a google search to see if I have ever used the word "Palestinian" 1580 hits came up (yes, its grown). THAT was my point. Apparently I DO use the word Palestinian to call the Arabs who live in Gaza, the WEst bank, and in camps in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. In about 1968 or so, the Arabs started to create a national consensus as "Palestinians." So I recognize them as an emerging nation, but not as an emerged nation. As for "Palestine" I use the word to describe the name the Romans gave to Israel after burning down their temple OR the British Mandate for Palestine which came into existance as a British invention in 1917. Palestine has never been a sovereign country nor does it have any Arabic origins.
 

Yes I believe in equal rights

JA writes: "Hey Becky are you a leftie who believes in absolutely equal rights for ALL people in Palestine...
by JA 30 Jan 2005

...*REGARDLESS* OF RACE, ETHNICITY, OR RELIGION?"

First, you are deluded about this place called Palestine. It doesnt exist. At least not yet.

And yes, I do advocate for equal rights for all people regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion.

Since you said "Palestine" I am a little confused. Do you mean for both the Palestinians and the Israelis? In that case I would say yes with the exception being I would differentiate between citizens and non-citizens.

For instance, I don't see why Israel would have to pay social security benefits (or the Israeli equivalent of) to non-citizens. But they DO have to grant them equal rights to speech, religion, freedom of assembly, etc. Probably not the right to vote, since they aren't Israeli citizens. Oslo let Palestinians vote for their own civic authority.

One last point. Israel, when it was founded, declared itself as a homeland for Jews the world over. I see nothing racist about this. They DO let other people become citizens, its just not automatic.
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

One-track Becky wrote:
>Israel, when it was founded,
>declared itself as a homeland
>for Jews the world over. I see
>nothing racist about this. They
>DO let other people become
>citizens, its just not automatic.

When it's for Jews, Becky and other zionists see no racism involved. But what if we changed the word, without changing the concept? Does the following sound racist to you?

===
KKKsylvania, when it was founded, declared itself as a homeland for TrueWhiteChristians the world over. I see nothing racist about this. They DO let other people become citizens, its just not automatic.
===

Why is it OK for "Jews" to do this?

And if you think that it is OK, then should we offer equal support (both moral and financial) for other cultural/ethnic/religious groups to do the same?
 

Becky says there's "nothing racist" about Special Preferences for Jewish Applicants

Or let's make it even easier...

This policy of Jews getting preferential treatment in applying for citizenship...

What would that policy be called if it were instituted in the United States?
 

Scene from the "new" US Immigration policy

Applicant: "Hi, I'm from Mexico and I'd like to move the the United States. It seems nicer here, and I think it'd be easier for me to find a job."

Immigration Bureaucrat: "Yeah, well, that's what everyone tells us. Why don't you go back to where you came from."

Applicant: "Oh, I forgot to mention it... I'm Jewish."

Bureaucrat: "Oh, I apologize sir, I didn't realize. Here's the proper forms to fill out. We'll have you processed and out the door by this afternoon."

----------

That seems fair, doesn't it?

==========
 

Wow, Becky, you sure are good at playing stupid

I'm beginning to think it might not be a put-on

"Israel is not an "occupier" because that would mean that Israel is occupying another country... blah blah etc."

I see. So your idea of countering my charge that you're convinced Israel has a right to all of British-mandated Palestine is to once again intimate this very thing. Oh my God, Becky, what a towering intellect you have! Like here where your mindless bigot agenda drips like pus from of every word of this paragraph:

"Yes I think Palestinian Arabs can live there too. I see nothing wrong with Jews and Arabs living together, sharing the land. If Palestine ever comes into being, I see nothing wrong with some of its citizens being Jewish."

* * * * * * * * *

"Israel is not just being paranoid. They do fear annihilation. They do feel their very survival is based on being armed to the teeth."

Oh just quit fucking playing the victim, already! This bullshit act got SOOO tired about 20 years ago. When it comes to being victimized, NO ONE in the Middle East outdoes the Palestinians, and when it comes to aggression, NO ONE remotely approaches the Israelis. Which is a rather perfect inversion of this bullshit you're coming off with, isn't it? Once again, YOU invaded THEM, remember? Then you unilaterally destroyed the U.N. partition plan, remember? And no, they didn't attack you in 1967, you attacked them, remember? And by "you" I mean zionists, and don't fucking pretend you're not a zionist. No, it doesn't matter that you're not Jewish; they're two different things.

"Your answer ... was some kind of wandering essay on how 9/11 has made the USA more fascist."

No, lying asshole, it wasn't "wandering." It was one short paragraph, very direct and to the point. If your mind is too trivial to follow the argument, maybe you should put the blame where it belongs. Come to think of it, I even anticipated this exact facultative stupidity you're now showing: "But then you ARE a lying manipulative asshole, so of course you WILL pretend to not understand any of this..."

"I would tend to agree with you that the Patriot act is a piece of shit and wouldn't have stopped 9/11 anyway. But what does that have to do with Israel????"

My God, your obtuseness is just sickening. I ANSWERED THIS! If you want to get into the merits of what I said, then do so -- that's not what you're doing here. But then, you know you'll get your ass kicked again if you do that, don't you?

"It was Islamic Arabs (all Saudis) who performed those attacks."

How do you know? Because the utterly corrupt psychopaths of the Bush Administration, the world intel community, and the corporate media say so? And you trust a syllable uttered by any one of these people? Between six and nine of the 'suicide hijackers' are still alive in the Middle East. All by itself, this punches a gigantic intolerable hole in the official account, and there are many many such holes

Harrison, David. Revealed: the men with stolen identities. The Daily Telegraph, 9/23/01
www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml

Author unknown. Hijack 'Suspects' Alive and Well. British Broadcasting Corporation, 9/23/01
news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1559000/1559151.stm

MacFarquhar, Neil. A Nation Challenged: The Hijackers; Confusion Over Names Clouds Identities of Attackers on Jets. New York Times, 9/21/01
www.nytimes.com/2001/09/21/international/middleeast/21IDEN.html

Jeffery, Simon. Special Report: Terrorism in the US. The Guardian, 9/21/01
www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,601550,00.html

But like all zionists, you buy into the official account because it bolsters the case for unlimited aggression against Islam, which you favor in turn because you're an imperialist bigot asshole

"IF you are saying the Islamic Arabs attacked us because we support Israel, then what do you think we should do about it?"

Israel is a Western imperial onslaught on their world, period, and they know it, even if you're too dishonest to ever admit it. The surest way to restore political sanity and safety to the world is to withdraw this abomination. This represents the justice they seek, and their grievance is completely sound, and they know this too. Your childish schoolyard analogies do not capture the essence of the situation EVEN A LITTLE. If these are really the terms in which you think about this stuff, please PLEASE for God's sake do everyone on the planet a huge favor and just don't think about it at all. Your mind is much too small for this.

Western imperialism really is a cancer on the earth, a severe imbalance of the rational order of things that's about to be resoundingly corrected, mark my words. We can roll it back ourselves and in this way control the process, or we can keep prattling disinformation until it smashes down on us. Maybe I'm just a silly goose, but I prefer the former.

"Do you think that giving in to a bully brings peace? there is no logical reasoning with al Qaeda in the first place. they really do hate us for our bikinis."

They're not the bullies. You are. They get in one good hard shot in retaliation for the MILLIONS killed by the Western empires over there over the past 90 years, and now you want to whip people up to annihilate them. Your comprehension of history and fairness is simply diseased, as is placed on continual display by your posture on Israel.

Also, al Qaeda is a phantom, the Emmanuel Goldstein of the U.S. fascist empire. This has now been acknowledged even by the BBC (excellent 3-hour documentary here: informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm ). So this "they" you're talking about is really the Arab people, just admit it. And no Becky YOU are the one who hates THEM. That's why you eagerly pounce on every bit of demonizing trivia that comes your way about them.
 

Re: ne@nderthal

You know what? A potent case can be made that Jewish applicants for Israeli citizenship deserve affirmative action after what Jews have been through for two millennia at the hands of many gentiles.

Your first post represents a very improper analogy as religious groups like "true White Christians" haven't been kicked around by various non-Christians in so many lands, let alone like Jews have been.

Your third post is just the baseless figment of your fertile imagination and doesn't deserve further discussion.
 

"a potent case"

Fine CT, you think it's "a potent case."

Fact is, there are innumerable, horrific acts of genocide throughout history. Should the victimized survivors of those acts get homelands, too?

I will assume (perhaps incorrectly) that you're not interested in entering into a discussion of "whose oppression is/was greater." Even you are not so mentally disturbed as to walk down that road.

So... which part of the US should we carve out for the Cherokee?

I suppose we know who gets the area we call Alaska.

Monterey to San Francisco (and beyond) goes to the Ohlones.

Guess who gets Manhattan?

Of course, this type of list could easily continue for a LONG time without ever leaving North America.

ALTERNATE PLAN:
The state of Israel be redefined, not as a homeland for Jews, but instead as a homeland for ALL oppressed peoples, with no preference given to any particular group.
 

What would it be called if done in the US?

Since you tried hard to ignore this post previously, I thought I'd bring it back to your attention.
-------------------

This policy of Jews getting preferential treatment in applying for citizenship...

What would that policy be called if it were instituted in the United States?

===
 

Re: ne@nderthal

In answer to your first question I would say that if the int'l political system (including the UN) is ever almost 180 degrees improved, then every effort should be made to give the nationalities that have survived genocides a homeland.

If you live in the US and are a citizen there, it's up to you to morally face up to the results of the genocide that the 19th century US administrations wrought as well as the continued systematic discrimination the Native Americans are under since the late 19th century. I'm not living in the States, so this isn't my problem.

As for Israel's definition, it's up to Israel's citizenry and/or parliament whether or not to redefine its purpose. Not, with all due respect, up to any rather ignorant prissy American or Westerner who hasn't bothered to avail himself of all the valid information. By the same token, those deranged pathologically lying racists like "Truth Warrior" have no say on whether Israel will undo itself.
 

Balkanize the Planet?

"every effort should be made to give the nationalities that have survived genocides a homeland."

Nationalities? Can you clarify that a bit. What qualifies and what doesn't?

What if it's not a nationality? How about a homeland for the Indonesian Communists?

For that matter, why does a group have to endure some sort of nightmare to qualify for getting a homeland? How about every group gets one?

Let's Balkanize the whole world... just an endless parade of xenophobic city-states.

=====

And by the way...

This policy of Jews getting preferential treatment in applying for citizenship...

What would that policy be called if it were instituted in the United States?
 

Okay, I will play with your conundrum

"KKKsylvania, when it was founded, declared itself as a homeland for TrueWhiteChristians the world over. I see nothing racist about this. They DO let other people become citizens, its just not automatic."

BECKY: Suppose KKKsylvania had a reasonable standard for immigration which examined people's past criminal records, and was able to do a background check and be reasonably assured that person wouldn't become an enemy of the state. And suppose all new citizens had to agree to abide by the laws of that land, before they would be admitted as citizens. I do not see a human rights violation here.

This is what Israel does with non-Jews who seek to immigrate into Israel. Charges that Israel is racist in who it allows to immigrate are simply false.

As for a refuge for white Christians you have all the RED states in the USA. But where do the Jews go? You see? Its not the same.

In the atmosphere immediately after WWII, people were genuinely moved by the terrible loss the jewish people suffered in Nazi Germany. That was one of the main reasons why the UN voted to partition in 1947. (AND the Irgun was KICKING British ass!!) Without a country, the Jews had no homeland at all anywhere on earth. Yet they still maintained a rich history of their ancient kingdom of Israel, which is not myth, but has been substantiated with copious archeological evidence. ( There are no ancient Palestinian artifacts found in the same region. )

Did you know that with Jewish immigrants from all over the world, all speaking different languages, that this new country needed to establish a common language---so they resurrected a dead language--Hebrew--and it worked!! They speak Hebrew in Israel. Absolutely amazing!!

One more point on immigration policies:

Ya know, when you try to become an Australian citizen you are rated on a point system. Doctors, dentists, and engineers get high points. You have to be an educated yuppie with a fat bank account to become an Aussie. Yet I don't see you condemning Australia in any of these comments for being "racist."

Watch out! Your double-standards are showing!
 

Systematically terrorized, robbed, and denied decent livelihoods by the Zionist State

Becky Johnson says, "As for a refuge for white Christians you have all the RED states in the USA. But where do the Jews go? You see? Its not the same."

Jews are born in and live in many countries, including the United States, where they are not discriminated against anywhere near the amount of Palestinians.

And where do the Palestinians go. Palestinians are systematically discriminated against in all of occupied Palestine (what you call Israel). Those who were driven out through the terrorism of the Zionist State are not even allowed to return to their homes. Those who are driven into Warsaw like WW2 Jewish Ghettos are told they are independent while they are systematically terrorized, robbed, and denied decent livelihoods by the Zionist State.

And Becky Johnson has the nerve to say, "Watch out! Your double-standards are showing!"
 

Hey, Becky, COME ON, I'm waiting here

What's wrong Becky? Afraid to get your stupid ass ripped in half by my foot again? I myself CAN'T WAIT. I will blow your ass apart just as decisively every single time you aim your bullshit hole in my direction. Truth trumps bullshit every time

"I do not see a human rights violation here... Charges that Israel is racist in who it allows to immigrate are simply false."

The validity of this charge, O spouter of bullshit, is that Israel does not subject Jews and non-Jews to identical sets of immigration laws. Jews have automatic citizenship rights; everyone else has to run this gauntlet you describe. That's discriminatory. Duh.

Furthermore, stupid ass, Australia's immigration policy is not 'racist.' 'Credentialist' yes, but then people can hope to develop their credentials. Racial identity, however, is immutable. Discrimination based on race is thus much more of an outrage. Duh.

"As for a refuge for white Christians you have all the RED states in the USA."

Ah, yes, whip out the Red/Blue bullshit. You really like bullshit, so of course you would do this. Neither America nor any of its states are theocratic in nature, although this could change soon thanks to assholes like you.

"Without a country, the Jews had no homeland at all anywhere on earth."

Omigod, WAAA-HAA-HAaa-haaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Do the Sikhs have a "homeland?" Do the Buddhists, or the Jains, or even the Christians have a "homeland?" Judaism is a religion not a race. You can't condemn Islamists for pushing theocracy when that's all Israel really amounts to. As in "Watch out! Your double-standards are showing!"

For that matter, a great many races (e.g. the Kurds) don't have "homelands" either in the sense you're using, which seems to require some sort of bigotocracy, a la Israel. Nonetheless, they do have the "homeland" of Kurdistan, just as Gypsies have the "homeland" of Romania. In the same way, Jews can always claim Israel as a "homeland" whether or not it's in the grip of a Jewish bigot regime. But it's that 'bigot regime' part that really gets you wet, isn't it?
 

Mass revolts that will aim to bring down all the existing despotic states

As events unfolded the connections between the rulers of the US and Britain, the World Bank, the rulers of Israel and the local Arab, including Iraqi, Egyptian; Jordanian and Palestinian, puppets will be further exposed before the entire population of the Middle East. This will lead to further understanding on the part of the workers, both Arabs and Israelis, of their need to act together for their own agenda leading to the Socialist Federation of the Middle East.

It is a question of a few years before the American occupying forces will be forced to leave Iraq under the pressure of the American working class itself, as happened in Vietnam. When it will happen the entire Pax Americana will be destroyed in the region by mass revolts that will aim to bring down all the existing despotic states.

The question of the need for a socialist revolution will be seen clearly for many. It is a race against time. The Marxists must prepare to be a force that can intervene in such developments.
 

nderthal , don't play stupid

I wouldn't be "Balkanizing the Planet".

Your request that I clarify my allusion to nationalities is fair enough for sure. Personally I'd say that in a nearly politically perfect world, not only each people/nation that has survived a genocide should be given a homeland, preferably on or within their historical spot of dwelling, but every people on earth that hasn't yet managed to secure itself a homeland. But only nations qualify. Adherents of non-nationalist or anti-nationalist ideologies like communism don't. The fact you'd even probe me whether Indonesian *communists* could be given a state reveals, with all due respect, deep political ignorance.

Also, why are you positing that all these imaginary mini states would be xenophobic? That's your own notion talking here courtesy of your conceptions, not the way it would necessarily be in a much better world politically wise.

Your last question is irrelevant. Israel is a state giving *Jews* preferential treatment that was established on the *Jewish historical homeland* *by Jews*. No other state was created specifically by Jews.

You know, you're quite funny. I don't see you asking all your semi sarcastic questions about Saudi Arabians, Egyptians, Sudanese, Iranians and Chinese to name a few. Like most anti-Zionists you've got an unhealthy obsession about Jews getting preferential treatment. I don't have much respect for your type of selective anti-racism.
 

Judaism isn't a race. But it's a national religion

Namely, it's the religion of one nation only -- the Jewish people. Anyone who converts to Judaism simultaneously joins the Jewish people.

Conversely, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians and members of other religions don't constitute a people, respectively. There could be Indian Buddhists or Chinese Buddhists, just as there are French Christians and German Christians, and so on. Even when a particular religion was in its formation process within one single county, usually not all its inhabitants belonged to that specific religion. These religions branched out not according to uni-national lines, and never sought to carve out unique peoples specifically chosen by their deities to have exclusive membership in these religions respectively, including the stipulation that converts concommitantly join a corresponding nation or people. This is what the "Warrior" probably not only has failed to grasp, but is apparently adamant in not comprehending.

The above deranged hate consumed liar is of course propagating the ludicrous lie that Israel amounts to a theocracy de facto. But then, this wasn't his most egregious lie, so what could you expect. Notice also how he tosses all reason out the window by trying to excuse the existence Muslim theocracies by pointing to Israel, as if the fact that Israel's civil life is governed to some extent by Jewish law makes Islamic theocracy right. Besides, Islamic theocracy originated in the Arabian peninsula and spread out to other Muslim lands way before the State of Israel was created.

I do agree that other nations or peoples have strong cases for national independence, including the Kurds. They have been continually wrong by the powers that be in that their legitimate national aspirations were never done justice. Surely the Kurds have a much better case for being given a homeland than the Palestinians who are probably the least deserving on the list (hell, even an Israeli communist called Yosef Goell agrees on this point).

Jews have already lost most of their historical homeland's territory, i.e. the East Bank and much of Judea-Samaria to Arab imperialist occupation since the 7th century onwards, so the demands made by rabid anti-Zionists that they give up all that's left of their ancient homeland to the Palestinians is morally insane, and I've seen at least one anti-Zionist stating this at his own behest on Indybay.
 

Classic bigot "logic"

Observe the convoluted insanity here:

"Namely, it's the religion of one nation only -- the Jewish people. Anyone who converts to Judaism simultaneously joins the Jewish people."

"Conversely, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians and members of other religions don't constitute a people, respectively. There could be Indian Buddhists or Chinese Buddhists, just as there are French Christians and German Christians, and so on."

So you can convert to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. but only if you convert to Judaism do you join a "people," whatever the fuck that means. I guess it means members of other faiths don't qualify as "people." What he's really puking out here is the 'Jew as race' fallacy, but races don't accept 'converts,' do they? So what the hell does that first paragraph mean? To explore what it means, I think some West Bank Palestinians should convert to Judaism and then try emigrating to Israel. I wanna see how far they get.
 

You're the Bigot here.

You just don't want to open up to the logic lest you'll be able to understand it and then proceed to internalize it and then have to agree with me.

By converting to Judaism, dear dullard, one also becomes a member of the Jewish people, like it or not.

I'm not going to deal with the looned guess you've just farted out. People of all races can convert and have converted to Judaism, but that won't get in the way of this racist psycho's deranged misperceptions. BTW I know of two Palestinian Arabs who have converted to Judaims and have been accepted as Jews in good standing.


Just minutes ago there was a power outage here that wiped out a mammoth retort I had been composing for your poisenous post on the other thread where you claimed the US replaced Nazi Germany as the world's greatest villain. I was more than three quarters into it and now I'm not in the mood to try to reconstruct it from scratch. Congratulate yourself.
 

You **CAN'T** say it, can you Becky?: "Absolutely equal rights for ALL people in Palestine regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion" -- PERIOD.

NOW, BECKY, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER (from above)?:

"Hey Becky are you a leftie who believes in absolutely equal rights for ALL people ***IN PALESTINE*** ...
by JA 30 Jan 2005

...*REGARDLESS* OF RACE, ETHNICITY, OR RELIGION?"


YOU HAVE TO USE *ALL* THE WORDS IN MY QUESTION -- NOT JUST THE WORDS YOU WANT TO *SELECT*! -- AND THEN *SELECTIVELY* DISCARD THE WORDS YOU *DON'T* WANT TO USE.

Becky: "First, you are deluded about this place called Palestine. It doesnt exist. At least not yet."

Becky you are really such an *AIRHEAD*!! Check a map: Palestine -- the British mandate. The European Jews went to "Palestine". The place referenced in the *Balfour Declaration* that Zionists hold so dear. Israel is *in* Palesine.

It's pretty much a waste of time to debate you here (except that I'm sure that observers of these threads can see what a fool you are), but I would hypothetically **LOVE** to debate you in public with lots of people around -- to just make an utter and complete *FOOOL* of you, the way I used to do to IAC Zionist students on Sproul Plaza! It would be *so* FUNNN...!! I'd hypothetically LOVE to debate you publicly where you could hear people *LAUGHIN'* at what passes for your stupid 'logic' as I sarcastically tore you up...!!


Becky: "Since you said "Palestine" I am a little _confused_."

*BIGGG* *SURRRPRISE*...!!


Becky: "And yes, I do advocate for equal rights for all people regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion."

Everywhere BUT in Palestine, huh?


Becky: "Israel, when it was founded, declared itself as a homeland for Jews the world over. I see nothing racist about this."

LET'S SEE: GO TO PALESTINE -- AN *ARAB* COUNTRY -- AND FORCE -- UPON THE *OVERWHELMING MAJORITY* OF THE POPULATION -- A FOREIGN, EUROPEAN "*JEWISH*" STATE.

NOPE!! *THAT* DOESN'T SOUND RACIST!

HOW 'BOUT IF WE DECLARE THE U.S. "A *CHRISTIAN* STATE", _SYSTEMATICALLY_ DISPOSSESS THE JEWS, STEADILY ETHNICALLY CLEANSE THEM, AND PUT THEM INTO GHETTOS AND CONCENTRATION CAMPS!

GEE, ISN'T THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE *JEWS* IN NAZI GERMANY (ESPECIALLY FROM ABOUT 1932 TO 1943)!?

(THAT'S ALSO WHAT THE KKK WANTED -- EXCEPT THAT THEY WANTED THE JEWS *TOTALLY* EXPELLED OR ELIMINATED TOO.)

THIS IS WHY ZIONIST JEWS HAVE TO BE HISTORY'S GREATEST **HYPOCRITES**.
 

A QUESTION FOR BECKY:

Becky, this is hard to say, but you make non-Critical Thinkifier almost look like *'EINSTEIN'* (except Einstein, being a *staunch* anti-racist leftist activist, became opposed to Zionism). In fact, you are *way* more idiotic than even the VERY FEW Zionist *Jews* on sc-imc, indybay, or sf-imc. (Gerhig is *MUCH* smarter than non-Critical Thinkifier; and non-Critical Thinkifier is *MUCH* smarter than you!) You're kinda down there with indybay comment poster Sefarad's simplemindedness (I don't even bother with her -- but she also says that she's not Jewish). Now *why* do you side with those hypoctical, eternal self-victimological *nuts* instead of the *ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS* on the local indymedias, like aaron aarons, or "deanosaur", or article essayists like Jeffrey Blankfort, or anti-Zionist Jewish lecturer/activists like Barbara Lubin of MECA, or Joel Beinin of Stanford, or Dr. Marc Sapir of Berkeley, or Rob Lipton and other Jews of the ISM, or anti-Zionist Jews in Jewish Voice for Peace, or national names like scholar Lenni Brenner, or anti-racist activist Tim Wise; I could name more? They believe that just as there should not be a Christian-supremacist state oppressing Jews, there should not be a Jewish-supremacist state oppressing Palestinians. Why do you have to side with the self-victimological twisted racist Jewish nutcases?

You say that you're not Jewish. Are you married to a Zionist Jew or do you have a close relative or inlaw who is a Zionist Jew -- or a Zionist (past or present) Jewish boyfriend? I'm trying to discern the source of your RABID *extreme* ULTRA-PRO-ZIONIST nuttyhood. Or do you somehow exoticize or romanticize "the Jews"?
 

Insecure Juif Antagoniste puts down posters and is and race baiting Becky Johnson

And for good measure, he exposes just what a laughable ignoramus he is. Either that or he's lying with a bald face. If anything, Einstein's views had progressed toward supporting Zionism, not the reverse. Additionally and of less importance though, Juif Antagoniste has nothing to go on but his own foolish opinions when he establishes that "Gerhig is *MUCH* smarter than Critical Thinkfer; and Critical Thinker is *MUCH* smarter than you!) and that Sefarad is utterly simpleminded.

JA's of course ignoring the fact Palestine replaced the Land of Israel as a name to designate same in the European languages, hence he utters "The European Jews went to "Palestine". The place referenced in the *Balfour Declaration* that Zionists hold so dear. Israel is *in* Palesine.".
JA is also lying about the Land of Israel being an Arab country prior to 1948. It definitely was NOT a country. His portrayal of Israel as a "foreign European state" is baloney. To him and his ilk, Israel as a Jewish state has always been foreign because he categorically refuses to recognize the historical Jewish ties to the land.

I'm familiar with crazy JA's racist anti-White and antisemitic legacy. And he'll invariably generalize that Zionist Jews are "self-victimological twisted racist Jewish nutcases". Funny, that. If you replace the word 'Jewish' with Black, you get a very apt description of JA himself, who also fits in here quite neatly with the other deluded hatemongers such as "Warrior" and Mr. Argue.

Note how he's race baiting Johnson, poking into personal matters none of his concern. It's downright disgusting.
 

So Long... Thanks for All the Fish.

I thought Becky and her ilk were incorrigible liars, but I think the true answer is that they are delusional.

Some type of personality disorder, imo.
 

Thanks for your input

Your little comment is overall cute, but unlike the psychotic "Warrior" you at least don't consider me an incorrigible liar. Nothing to scoff at.
 

Hey, CT -- JA's question was directed to Becky

So why don't you shut the fuck up and get out of the way? I want to see her vindicate everything JA said.
 

A QUESTION FOR BECKY:

Becky, this is hard to say, but you make non-Critical Thinkifier almost look like *'EINSTEIN'* (except Einstein, being a *staunch* anti-racist leftist activist, became opposed to Zionism). In fact, you are *way* more idiotic than even the VERY FEW Zionist *Jews* on sc-imc, indybay, or sf-imc. (Gerhig is *MUCH* smarter than non-Critical Thinkifier; and non-Critical Thinkifier is *MUCH* smarter than you!) You're kinda down there with indybay comment poster Sefarad's simplemindedness (I don't even bother with her -- but she also says that she's not Jewish). Now *why* do you side with those hypoctical, eternal self-victimological *nuts* instead of the *ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS* on the local indymedias, like aaron aarons, or "deanosaur", or article essayists like Jeffrey Blankfort, or anti-Zionist Jewish lecturer/activists like Barbara Lubin of MECA, or Joel Beinin of Stanford, or Dr. Marc Sapir of Berkeley, or Rob Lipton and other Jews of the ISM, or anti-Zionist Jews in Jewish Voice for Peace, or national names like scholar Lenni Brenner, or anti-racist activist Tim Wise; I could name more? They believe that just as there should not be a Christian-supremacist state oppressing Jews, there should not be a Jewish-supremacist state oppressing Palestinians. Why do you have to side with the self-victimological twisted racist Jewish nutcases?

You say that you're not Jewish. Are you married to a Zionist Jew or do you have a close relative or inlaw who is a Zionist Jew -- or a Zionist (past or present) Jewish boyfriend? I'm trying to discern the source of your RABID *extreme* ULTRA-PRO-ZIONIST nuttyhood. Or do you somehow exoticize or romanticize "the Jews"?
 

A QUESTION FOR BECKY:

Becky, this is hard to say, but you make non-Critical Thinkifier almost look like *'EINSTEIN'* (except Einstein, being a *staunch* anti-racist leftist activist, became opposed to Zionism). In fact, you are *way* more idiotic than even the VERY FEW Zionist *Jews* on sc-imc, indybay, or sf-imc. (Gerhig is *MUCH* smarter than non-Critical Thinkifier; and non-Critical Thinkifier is *MUCH* smarter than you!) You're kinda down there with indybay comment poster Sefarad's simplemindedness (I don't even bother with her -- but she also says that she's not Jewish). Now *why* do you side with those hypoctical, eternal self-victimological *nuts* instead of the *ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS* on the local indymedias, like aaron aarons, or "deanosaur", or article essayists like Jeffrey Blankfort, or anti-Zionist Jewish lecturer/activists like Barbara Lubin of MECA, or Joel Beinin of Stanford, or Dr. Marc Sapir of Berkeley, or Rob Lipton and other Jews of the ISM, or anti-Zionist Jews in Jewish Voice for Peace, or national names like scholar Lenni Brenner, or anti-racist activist Tim Wise; I could name more? They believe that just as there should not be a Christian-supremacist state oppressing Jews, there should not be a Jewish-supremacist state oppressing Palestinians. Why do you have to side with the self-victimological twisted racist Jewish nutcases?

You say that you're not Jewish. Are you married to a Zionist Jew or do you have a close relative or inlaw who is a Zionist Jew -- or a Zionist (past or present) Jewish boyfriend? I'm trying to discern the source of your RABID *extreme* ULTRA-PRO-ZIONIST nuttyhood. Or do you somehow exoticize or romanticize "the Jews"?
 

ALBERT EINSTEIN:

-

"It would be my greatest sadness to see Jews do to Palestinian Arabs *MUCH* of what Nazis did to Jews."

==========================================================================

Einstein also co-signed a letter to the New York Times (1948), along with other prominent Jews, like the anti-Zionist Jew Hannah Arendt, warning about anti-Palestinian terrorist, fascist and even racist Nazi-like institutions in Israel, and calling Menachim Begin, then a future prime minister of Israel, A RACIST FACIST, and saying that Begin should not even be allowed into the United States.

============================================================================

Einstein was also a close friend of the internationally famous African American actor-singer-athlete, internatinonal speaker and political activist Paul Robeson and together they worked to fight anti-Black racism (especially on the anti-lynching campaign) in the U.S.

=============================================================================


By the way, Becky, other MORAL ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS in the Bay Area include those in Jews for a Free Palestine (JFFP) and, very prominently, UC Berkeley Professor Emerita Bluma Goldstein, herself a Jewish Holocaust survivor who lost over 30 members of her family in the Holocaust, but who nonetheless morally rejects Zionism.

In addition to the other anti-Zionist Jewish activists (like in Jewish Voice for Peace), journalists and essayists, scholars and professors (like UC Berkeley's Daniel Boyarin), human rights directors and pro-Palestinian solidariy workers, why aren't you siding with *THEM*!?

You're siding with the blithering idiots like non-Critical Thinkifier, and the rabid glassy-eyed Jewish fundamentalist settlers!! What does this say about you, *intellectually*, let alone morally?

So, these moral anti-Zionist Jews are like the early American Abolitionists (who at first were fewer) or, later, anti-Segregationists; but it's like you, Becky, are siding with the immoral 'slavers' (who at first were in the majority) or, later, Segregationists! (Or, like elsewhere, the pro-apartheid Afrikaners, who were before in the white majority.) But, like the slavers, Becky, you're on the *WRRRONNNG* side of moral history.

===============================================================================


NOW, BACK TO THE QUESTION, BECKY. WE'RE WAITING...


(I guess that non-Critical Thinkifier is sweatin'!: either afraid that you *CAN'T* answer the question -- or he's AFRAID of what your answer might be! So, he's trying to BLOCK it!!)

-
 

A QUESTION FOR BECKY:

Becky, this is hard to say, but you make non-Critical Thinkifier almost look like *'EINSTEIN'* (except Einstein, being a *staunch* anti-racist leftist activist, became opposed to Zionism). In fact, you are *way* more idiotic than even the VERY FEW Zionist *Jews* on sc-imc, indybay, or sf-imc. (Gerhig is *MUCH* smarter than non-Critical Thinkifier; and non-Critical Thinkifier is *MUCH* smarter than you!) You're kinda down there with indybay comment poster Sefarad's simplemindedness (I don't even bother with her -- but she also says that she's not Jewish). Now *why* do you side with those hypoctical, eternal self-victimological *nuts* instead of the *ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS* on the local indymedias, like aaron aarons, or "deanosaur", or article essayists like Jeffrey Blankfort, or anti-Zionist Jewish lecturer/activists like Barbara Lubin of MECA, or Joel Beinin of Stanford, or Dr. Marc Sapir of Berkeley, or Rob Lipton and other Jews of the ISM, or anti-Zionist Jews in Jewish Voice for Peace, or national names like scholar Lenni Brenner, or anti-racist activist Tim Wise; I could name more? They believe that just as there should not be a Christian-supremacist state oppressing Jews, there should not be a Jewish-supremacist state oppressing Palestinians. Why do you have to side with the self-victimological twisted racist Jewish nutcases?

You say that you're not Jewish. Are you married to a Zionist Jew or do you have a close relative or inlaw who is a Zionist Jew -- or a Zionist (past or present) Jewish boyfriend? I'm trying to discern the source of your RABID *extreme* ULTRA-PRO-ZIONIST nuttyhood. Or do you somehow exoticize or romanticize "the Jews"?
 

Re: You're the Bigot here

"By converting to Judaism, dear dullard, one also becomes a member of the Jewish people, like it or not."

Oh, I see. So I guess such converts must have the same automatic citizenship rights that Israel extends to "all" Jews, right? Therefore, a Palestinian should be able to convert to Judaism, automatically become a citizen, and then move straight into a settlement, which is where Israel likes to stick these newbies. Is that right?
 

to the editors

Please excuse: somehow (I don't know what happened, but I did have two identical windows open in different scroll positions that I was working from at the time) I inadvertantly replicated my question, "A QUESTION FOR BECKY", twice: once just above and once again just below my Feb 4 post, "ALBERT EINSTEIN". However, someone else reposted my question directly after, "Hey, CT -- JA's question was directed to Becky".
 

And that's GUARANTEED, AUTOMATIC, SMOOTH AS BUTTAH

As soon as they convert, they're IN THERE -- bing, bang, boom -- just like clockwork. Hey, they're "Jews" now, so under Israeli immigration policy, this cancels ALL conditions on entry and full acceptance, right? They replace their turban with a little beanie and BAM straight into a settlement, gimme my M-16. Right?

RIGHT?????
 

Re: "why don't you shut the fuck up "

Actually I already have.
The following paragraph farted out by Warrior some time before exemplifies just to what lengths he's willing to go to spread lies that hugely exaggerate Israel's culpability in the Arab-Israeli conflicts and simultaneously play down Israel's Arab enemies' culpability to a tiny bit more than zero:

"Oh just quit fucking playing the victim, already! This bullshit act got SOOO tired about 20 years ago [to communists?]. When it comes to being victimized, NO ONE in the Middle East outdoes the Palestinians [tens or hundreds of thousands of Kurds in Saddam Hussein's Iraq were gassed to death and still others had been murdered, tortured and arrested for no legitimate cause; many tens of thousands of Christian Lebanese were massacred while others were maimed by PLO terrorists and the Syrian occupier; about 900,000 Jews were all but driven out of Arab lands not before having to leave nearly all their property behind or seeing it confiscated by the respective governments. I've counted so far three populations that outdid the Palestinians at being victimized.] and when it comes to aggression, NO ONE remotely approaches the Israelis [see what I've just written about Saddam Hussein, the PLO, the Syrian military that also massacred 10,000 or 20,000 people in Hama; then there was Jordan's King Hussein who killed at least 10,000 PLO "insurgents" back in Sep 1970; all of whom outdid the Israelis in aggression.]. Which is a rather perfect inversion of this bullshit you're coming off with, isn't it? Once again, YOU invaded THEM, remember? [on the one hand there were already upwards of 25,000 Jews in the Land of Israel on the eve of the Zionist immigration in 1882, on the other, most "Palestinians" had yet to migrate into the land from neighboring Arab lands and beyond. The Zionists were purchasing their lands without driving off any local Arabs or non-Jews right up to the great invasion by 5 Arab armies in a bid to commit genocide on the local Jews. So that must be the invasion this idiot is talking about.] Then you unilaterally destroyed the U.N. partition plan, remember? [Why would this lying jerk spout such a clear lie when a search of the UN records unequivocally proves the Zionists accepted the this plan and the Arab side summarily rejected it?] And no, they didn't attack you in 1967, you attacked them, remember? [But the Egyptians had imposed a blockade on the Tiran Straits and the Arab armies in question were amassed on Israel's borders ready to attack any moment and Israel decided to strike pre-emptively.]"

As the attentive and history knowledgeable reader can tell, no lie is to great for that lunatic in order to take a whack at Israel and Zionism. I preferred not to promptly respond to all this crap and I still prefer not to go to the trouble of refuting the entire post where he wrote it.

The Warrior sounds to me like some communist in the A.N.S.W.E.R mold. No wonder he's so wacky.
 

Re: "And that's GUARANTEED, AUTOMATIC, SMOOTH AS BUTTAH"

Deranged Warrior:
"So I guess such converts must have the same automatic citizenship rights that Israel extends to "all" Jews, right? Therefore, a Palestinian should be able to convert to Judaism, automatically become a citizen, and then move straight into a settlement, which is where Israel likes to stick these newbies. Is that right?"

In Israel the individual gets to decide where he or she lives, be that in the disputed territories or in Israel proper. the Israeli govt. doesn't "toss" recent converts to Judaism into Jewish communities in Judea-Samaria without their consent.
The first convert I heard of was a formerly Palestinian Muslim from Hebron who either joined the Jewish community in that city or moved to the nearby Qiryat-Arba.

I must add that I haven't heard of Palestinians who would be insane enough to try to convert to Judaism as a means to obtain all kinds of benefits from the Israeli authorities. The rabbis in charge of conversions would detect any such insincerity on the part of such fakes and leave them outside the Jewish fold.

The "beanie" is a kippa. Can you bring your racist fingers to type only the correct name "kippa" (or "jewish cap") instead of the other?
 

Yes, there it is

"The Warrior sounds to me like some communist in the A.N.S.W.E.R mold. No wonder he's so wacky."

That's what I mean by 'my politics' which you're obviously totally hostile to, which also happen to be the politics of this site. So what the fuck are you doing here?
 

Who said 'insincere?'

Let's say we had an honest-to-God Torah-thumping zealot who just happened to be an Arab from the territories -- Obviously an IDF hot-lead lobotomy victim. And let's say this guy 'opted' to live in the settlements (I'm humoring you here) after emigrating to Israel. Let me see you pretend such a thing could actually happen. And if it couldn't, why on earth not, given your earlier palaver about such people 'becoming one' with the Jews?

By the way, someone converting in Hebron and then STAYING THERE doesn't have anything to do with anything I've said. You really can't control your impulse to be evasive, can you?
 

For a separation of religion and state with equal rights for all!

CT says, "I must add that I haven't heard of Palestinians who would be insane enough to try to convert to Judaism as a means to obtain all kinds of benefits from the Israeli authorities. The rabbis in charge of conversions would detect any such insincerity on the part of such fakes and leave them outside the Jewish fold."

From a Zionist that says much.

Smash the theocracy! For a separation of religion and state with equal rights for all!

No to the billions the U.S. government sends the Zionist State every year!
 

Re: Who said 'insincere?'

Ignoring the buffoon Argue's shattering brilliance punch line and oft repeated bravado crammed slogans, I'll say that I'm not going to play your game. I know much more about this conversion topic in general and within the Land of Israel in particular than you do for you to "humor" me and brand what I said a palaver. I accept that you'll probably always be hostile to the fact that one enters the Jewish people when they convert to Judaism, but you won't get me to play ball with you on the basis of your insistence to distort this process. I don't have to pretend anything. Every individual Jew decides where to live. Fact is there's been a steady influx of Jews into Judea-Samaria despite the intifada, and the Jews settling there have by far outnumbered the Jews leaving these areas for Israel proper for years now.
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

I SEE THAT YOU'VE POSTED TODAY, SO WHY NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION?
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

Clarification: I SEE THAT YOU'VE POSTED _IN OTHER THREADS AT SC-IMC_ TODAY, SO WHY NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION?
 

There's a downside to converting to Judaism

From what I understand, any person, regardless of country of origin, including Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank, can convert to Judaism and become an Israeli citizen. Conversion is not a fast or sure process. The saying is you have to be turned down three times before you are accepted as a convert.

A person considering conversion was asked by a Jew if he had read the entire Torah. He replied that he had read a good part of it and was very impressed. The Jew replied, how do you know if its any good without reading the entire book?

Another belief about conversion is religious in nature. The story goes like this. Long ago, God offered his law, the Torah, to all the peoples of the earth. But all people turned it down but one: the Jews. Hence, the chosen people. They were the only people who agreed to follow God's law.

But, in every land where God offered his law, there were individuals who said "Hey! that sounds good! I can abide by that." They are considered to be real Jews too. Even Islam writes of the People of the Book. Those people need only prove they are Jewish (by vast amounts of study... apparently!)

So, Truth Warper, yes. A Palestinian, currently living on the West Bank CAN convert to Judaism, become an Israeli citizen and continue living in his same house on the West Bank. Of course, now he has to worry about getting murdered.
 

they were brilliant too!!

My comments answering JA have been deleted by the free speech champions of IMC without explanation.

Go figure.
 

FINALLY (drum roll please) JA's Answer!

Now for JA's question: "Now *why* do you side with those hypoctical, eternal self-victimological *nuts* instead of the *ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS* on the local indymedias, like aaron aarons, or "deanosaur", or article essayists like Jeffrey Blankfort, or anti-Zionist Jewish lecturer/activists like Barbara Lubin of MECA, or Joel Beinin of Stanford, or Dr. Marc Sapir of Berkeley, or Rob Lipton and other Jews of the ISM, or anti-Zionist Jews in Jewish Voice for Peace, or national names like scholar Lenni Brenner, or anti-racist activist Tim Wise; I could name more?"

BECKY: Or Amy Goodman, Wendy Campbell, Alison Weir, Adam Shapiro, Stephen Zunes, Noam Chomsky, AFSC, all the little Palestinian-wannabees at the Resource Center for Nonviolence (note to CT: check out www.rcnv.org), or the fine, fine reporting of George "Old Lady Scar Arms" Cadman, or Vinny the V-man? Or almost anybody else at FRSC other than me?

Because once I know something, I can't stop knowing it. I USED to think just like you. And in some fundamental way, I haven't changed my value system one bit. What changed is I got more information.

When I first heard that Israel was 20% Arab/Muslim, I was shocked. Really. I didn't know any better. I said "But I hear its a Jewish state so that Palestinians, because they are not Jewish, cant even live in their own country!" "Isn't Israel accused of being an apartheid state?" How can it be an apartheid state if it has red-orange-yellow-black-and white citizens who are Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Bahai or have no religion at all?

The answer of course was, Israel is NOT an apartheid state.

As I dug deeper (and really I didnt believe a THING I had been told that conflicted with the leftist version of things)it became a case of everything-I-know-is-wrong.

Israel DOESN'T machine gun children in the street (an aside here: Barbara Lubin called me at my house and I told her that I no longer believe that the IDF machine-guns children in the street.

She said --oh, they do!! I said really? Name ONE case. She said "theres one that just happened. a girl was shot in the head as she was lining up to go to school".

Yes, thats the case where the PA police just arrested the PALESTINIAN gunman suspect--some idiot who had just returned from the Haaj and was celebrating by shooting his gun up in the air.

So even Barbara Lubin's ONLY example of the IDF machine-gunning children in the street turned out to have NO IDF INVOLVEMENT WHATSOEVER!!
If Barbara Lubin is so concerned about children, why doesn't her organization take care of any of the Israeli children who have been injured in the conflict?

Why am I so involved? (and I admit that I am very involved) What if you were in Nazi Germany in the 1930's and somehow you KNEW the Jewish holocaust was coming, wouldn't you feel moved to act to stop it?

Its kind of like that. I now see Israel as a tiny country trying its darndest to do the right thing while beleagered on all sides by enemies, waiting for a moment of weakness, before attacking again in the last war of annihilation.

I see the Arab propaganda mills churning out lie after lie after lie and spread around most likely by wealthy Arab oil money.

I also see the Israeli people barely defending themselves from these attacks. They PHYSICALLY defend themselves from snipers and bombers, but for a very smart people, (who are very good at reading and writing!!???!!)they move at a glacial pace in their own defense.

By the time the IDF has finished a full investigation of an incident, the Arab and leftist propaganda mills have spewed forth with some horrible portrait which "proves" that the IDF are a bunch of racist cold-blooded child-killers, and the Palestinian people are warm, loving, and struggling so bravely under the evil oppression.

Local Jewish people (and many of them are my dear friends) are a big part of the problem. Of course when you see how people are treated in here (name-calling, called a racist, a nazi, death threats, etc.) I guess you can't blame them for not speaking out more.

My personal work in life (outside my family and my day job) is to make a better, more peaceful world. Some of my work with homeless issues is in that vein. My work on behalf of Israel, is a personal justice issue. As long as I see people in Santa Cruz trashing this great little country left and right like its the most evil force on the planet, I feel moved to challenge that crap.
 

BECKY'S BRAIN !!! -- OR..., WHAT CAN I *SAYYY*!!???

BECKY: "...Or Amy Goodman, ..."

Amy Goodman is Jewish and anti-Zionist -- as well as her writer-activist brother.


"...Wendy Campbell, Alison Weir,..."

Wendy Campbell and Alison Wier are not Jewish.


"...Adam Shapiro, Stephen Zunes, Noam Chomsky, AFSC, all the little Palestinian-wannabees at the Resource Center for Nonviolence..."

PALESTINIAN-WANNABEES??? DON'T YOU THINK THAT'S A LITTLE *RRRACIST*???

WOULD YOU HAVE ACCUSED WHITE CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS BACK IN THE 60'S OF BEING "BLACK WANNABEES"???

WHY DON'T YOU JUST SAY "SAND NIGGER LOVERS" AND BE DONE WITH IT?

OH, I FORGOT -- YOU DON'T HAVE A BRAIN SO HOW CAN YOU THINK IN THE FIRST PLACE.

YEAH, ALL THEM JEWS JUST WANNA BE *PALESTINIANS*!!

JUST LIKE WHITES WHO WANNA BE *BLACK*!!

(By the way, although a strong critic of Israel, Zunes is a *Zionist*. A so-called 'liberal Zionist'. It's like a 'liberal slave-owner', or 'liberal Segregationist', or 'liberal pro-Apartheid Afrikaner', or maybe even 'liberal Nazi'. They're smart enough to realize that they have to at least get rid of the worst atrocities of Zionism or the whole Zionist matzo ball might be lost as Israel becomes a pariah state, like apartheid South Africa did, as Israel's own secret, but leaked, internal govt study showed.)


"...or the fine, fine reporting of George "Old Lady Scar Arms" Cadman, or Vinny the V-man? Or almost anybody else at FRSC other than me?"

I don't know Cadman or Vinny.


"I USED to think just like you."

DON'T INSULT ME! YOU *NEVER* THOUGHT "JUST LIKE [ME]".

(But, even a flashing clock on a VCR tells the right time once a day.)


"How can it be an apartheid state if it has red-orange-yellow-black-and white citizens who are Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Bahai or have no religion at all?"

YEAHHH...! IT'S LIKE DURING SLAVERY AND "JIM CROW" AMERICAN APARTHEID, WHEN THE U.S. HAD WHITE AND RED AND BLACK AND BROWN AND YELLOW AND CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH AND MORMON OR WHATEVER OR NO RELIGION AT ALL!!


"The answer of course was, Israel is NOT an apartheid state."

WELL, BUT DON'T NELSON MANDELA AND DESMOND TUTU SAY THAT ISRAEL IS AN APARTHEID STATE?

HEY, BUT IF I HAD TO TAKE *THEIR* WORD OR *YOURS* -- NO CONTEST: IT'D BE *YOURS*!!

(ANYWAY, MANDELA AND TUTU ARE PROBABLY ANTI-SEMITIC -- OR PALESTINIAN WWWANNABEES.)


"...an aside here: Barbara Lubin called me at my house..."

I'm disappointed that someone of Barbara's intelligence and stature would even waste her time on you. It would be like MADAME CURIE calling BETTY RUBBLE!


"Israel DOESN'T machine gun children in the street..."

OF COURSE *NOT*!! ISRAEL HAS *NEVER* SHOT AND KILLED *ANY* CHILDREN -- UNLESS THOSE CHILDREN (HOWVER YOUNG) WERE CARRYING AK-47'S (JUST LIKE THE LITTLE GIRL IN THE S.F. EXAMINER AD THAT WAS PULLED) OR PACKING SUICIDE BOMBS! WHY, *NO* JEWISH PERSON WOULD *EVER* BE CAPABLE OF *THAT* KIND OF RACISM AND ACTIONS!


"Yes, thats the case where the PA police just arrested the PALESTINIAN gunman suspect"

YES! NOW *THAT* EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!! ANY PALESTINIAN CHILDREN THAT HAVE BEEN SHOT AND KILLED WERE KILLED BY *OTHER* PALESTINIANS!!

(GEE! THOSE PALESTINIANS ARE *EVIL*!! THOSE DRUNKEN HAAJ-AMPED PALESTINIANS SHOOT AND KILL THEIR *OWN* KIDS -- AND THEN BLAME IT ON *ISRAEL*!! *DAMN* THOSE PALESTINIANS!!)


"So even Barbara Lubin's ONLY example of the IDF machine-gunning children in the street turned out to have NO IDF INVOLVEMENT WHATSOEVER!!"

THAT WOULD HAVE CONVINCED *ME* -- THAT BARBARA WAS LYING!! AND SHE'S *JUST* THE KIND OF PERSON THAT *WOULD*!!

***WHAT AN EPIPHANY!!!***

OF COURSE WE ONLY HAVE *YOUR* WORD FOR THE EXCHANGE, BUT *THAT'S* GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME!

I know that if you were telling someone else what *I* said, a *tape* recording of me would be in more doubt.


"If Barbara Lubin is so concerned about children, why doesn't her organization take care of any of the Israeli children who have been injured in the conflict?"

GOOD QUESTION!!! *GOOD* QUESTION!!! ...***DAMN*** GOOD QUESTION!!!


"Why am I so involved? (and I admit that I am very involved) What if you were in Nazi Germany in the 1930's and somehow you KNEW the Jewish holocaust was coming, wouldn't you feel moved to act to stop it?"

WELL, *I* WOULD, BUT TO MAKE THE PARALLEL MORE ACCURATE, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN SIDING WITH THE *NAZIS* AGAINST THOSE DAMN JEWS!

--AND THOSE JEWS WOULD HAVE THE *NERVE* TO CLAIM THAT THE NAZIS HAD SHOT AND KILLED THEIR KIDS IN THE WARSAW GHETTO!!

(OF COURSE, NOW *I'M* CONFUSED... BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THOSE HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS WHO ARE ANTI-ZIONISTS. OH..., THEY'RE PROBABLY JUST SELF-HATING JEWS... *THAT* EXPLAINS IT!)


"Its kind of like that. I now see Israel as a tiny country trying its darndest"

--OH *FLY* LITTLE BIRDIE!! **FLY**!!


"to do the right thing while beleagered on all sides by enemies, waiting for a moment of weakness,"

THOSE PALESTINIAN *SNAKES* IN THE GRASS!! -- THOSE JACKALS!!


"before attacking again in the last war of annihilation."

HUH...? ANNIHILATION??? IS THAT LIKE ARMAGEDDON??


SO, YOU TAKE *ONE* *SINGLE* ALLEGED EXAMPLE **YOURSELF**, FROM *ONE* *SINGLE* PERSON, AND YOU CONCLUDE THAT ZIONISM AND ISRAEL ARE RIGHT -- AND THE PALESTINIANS ARE WRONG!!

THAT'S, UH...., 'LOGICAL'...

YOU SWING FROM 'LEFT' TO EXTREME RIGHT THAT EASILY, HUH?

(ARE YOU RELATED TO DAVID HOROWITZ?)

GEE AND TO THINK THE WORLD WASTES SO MUCH TIME ON HISTORICAL AND SOCIAL SCIENCE *RESEARCH* -- ESPECIALLY INTELLECTUAL AND RESEARCH *STANDARDS*.


"I see the Arab propaganda mills churning out lie after lie after lie and spread around most likely by wealthy Arab oil money."

WELL, FORTUNATELY ALL THOSE WEALTHY JEWISH BANKERS HAVE THEIR *OWN* MONEY TO COUNTERACT THAT, HUH BECKY?


"I also see the Israeli people barely defending themselves from these attacks. They PHYSICALLY defend themselves from snipers and bombers, but for a very smart people, (who are very good at reading and writing!!???!!)"

YEAH, THEM JEWS CAN *READ* AND *WRITE*!! -- *THAT'S* FOR SURE. THAT'S WHY MY *LAWYER* IS A JEW. AND SO IS MY *ACCOUNTANT*!

IF IT'S GOT TO DO WITH *READING* AND *WRITING*..., I WANT A **JEW**.

***_RIGHT_, CT!?***


"they move at a glacial pace in their own defense."

WELL, WE KNOW ALL THOSE WEALTHY JEWS ARE ALWAYS *RICH* -- BUT *WHO* SAYS THAT JEWS ARE ALWAYS *SMART*, HUH BECKY...???

***_RIGHT_, CT!?***


HEY BECKY...! WANNA HEAR A GOOD JOKE? WHAT'S THE SMALLEST BOOK IN THE WORLD? "GREAT JEWISH BOXERS"!! HA-HA-HA..., HUH!!?


"By the time the IDF has finished a full investigation of an incident, the Arab and leftist propaganda mills have spewed forth with some horrible portrait which "proves" that the IDF are a bunch of racist cold-blooded child-killers, and the Palestinian people are warm, loving, and struggling so bravely under the evil oppression."

YEAH, THOSE *WILEY* AYE-RABS, HUH...!?


"Local Jewish people (and many of them are my dear friends)"

WHAT A COINCIDENCE! WHY, SOME OF *MY* BEST FRIENDS ARE *JEWISH* TOO!!


"are a big part of the problem."

WELL, THEY'RE *JEWISH*...!!: WHAT CAN YOU *SAYYY*...!!?


OR MAYBE IT'S ALL THAT CALIFORNIA SUN!! YOU CAN'T STAY OUT IN IT TOO MUCH!

YOU BEING IN SANTA CRUZ, I GUESS ***YOU*** KNOW!!


"Of course when you see how people are treated in here (name-calling, called a racist, a nazi, death threats, etc.) I guess you can't blame them for not speaking out more."

YEAH, IF SOMEONE KEPT CALLING *ME* THOSE NAMES, *I'D* EVEN SIDE WITH THE KLU KLUX KLAN!!

FORTUNATELY THOSE SLOW, DUM JEWS HAVE **YOU** TO SPEAK UP FOR THEM, HUH?


"My personal work in life (outside my family and my day job)"

GOSH! *PLEASE* DON'T QUIT YOUR DAY JOB!! ...YOU'RE DOING *TOO* MUCH ALREADY!!


"is to make a better, more peaceful world."

WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE *YOU* BECKY -- EXCEPT THAT, I'M AFRAID, WE'VE ALREADY GOT **TOO** MANY!!


"Some of my work with homeless issues is in that vein."

WELL..., I GUESS IF SOMEONE IS HOMELESS, THEN ANY HAND WITH A CRUST OF BREAD WILL DO ...


"My work on behalf of Israel, is a personal justice issue. As long as I see people in Santa Cruz trashing this great little country left and right like its the most evil force on the planet,"

AND WHAT A *GREAT* LITTLE COUNTRY IT IS, ISN'T IT!?

SORT OF LIKE -- REMEMBER? -- "POOR LITTLE BELGIUM". OOOPS!! -- I FORGOT!!: POOR LITTLE BELGIUM WAS THAT COUNTRY THAT MASSACRED TENS OF MILLIONS OF BLACKS -- AND MAIMED TENS OF MILLIONS *MORE* -- IN THE CONGO, WHEN EUROPEANS WENT TO COLONIZE *THERE* TOO!!

WAIT...!! THERE I GO AGAIN...!!: THOSE BLACKS MASSACRED EACH *OTHER* AND THEN *BLAMED* IT ON THE BELGIUMS/LEOPOLD!!

ANYWAY, ALL THOSE ORIGINAL ZIONIST EUROPEAN (AND NOW AMERICAN) JEWS WANTED TO DO WAS TO GET BACK TO THEIR "PROMISED LAND" -- "A LAND WITHOUT A PEOPLE"!! -- PROMISED TO THEM "BY GOD"!! -- 5,000 YEARS AGO!!


"I feel moved to challenge that crap."

("MOVED"! ..."CRAP"! ...*THAT'S* A JOKE, HUH...!?)

WELL THE WORLD DOESN'T KNOW WHAT IT WOULD DO *WITHOUT* PEOPLE LIKE *YOU* BECKY!!

(MAYBE BREATHE A LITTLE EASIER, AND LIVE A LOT MORE PEACEFULLY.)

WELL, BECKY... *THANKS* EVER SO MUCH FOR GIVING US A GREAT PEEK INTO BECKY'S BRAIN.

I CAN *CERTAINLY* SAY THAT IT'S BEEN..., WELL..., VERY 'ENGLIGHTENING', BECKY!!

INDEED..., QUITE BREATHTAKING!!


...OKAY, CT!: SHE'S *ALLL* YOURS!!

TAKE HER AWAY!! ***PUH-LEEEZE***!!!

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!


[CYMBALS] ***TSCHHH!!!***...
 

No Becky, that's called a "P-A-T-S-Y"

For someone who pretends to consider all sides, you have an amazing ability to swallow the official Israeli disinfo version without question, as if reading it out of the jpost or some such rag is like seeing it with your own eyes. This is not skepticism.

The trajectory of the bullet was flat. It took a horizontal path, entering beneath her nose and exiting the back of her head. This bullet was not fired "into the air" -- those don't come down nearly as fast as they go up. They come down at their terminal velocity, which is much slower. It's fast enough to hurt you, if it's a large caliber (higher mass & terminal velocity) it might even penetrate a kid's cranium, but blasting a hole straight through it, especially through the complex bones of the face is simply out of the question. This "fact" about bullets fired into the air is just another childish myth you accept unthinkingly, much like the myth that Palestinians are all VIE-YULL DEE-MONS!!! Aaargh!! SNARL!!! and stupid as rocks while Israelis are just widdle flit-ting goo-goo angels with widdle harps. Aw!

Nor was this a single errant bullet. The schoolyard was hit with a BURST of bullets. Another girl in the yard was shot through the hand. It's all much more consistent with Barbara Lubin's version than with yours.

Your claim that you were EVER a leftist is super gross. The character Newt in the movie "Aliens" could have been talking about you: "But Ripley, HER head's made of PLASTIC!"

Here's what really happened to you: you were a shallow poser who wanted to hang with the cool kids, and then you had kids yourself, which made you a super-conservative latent bigot, cuz it can do that. It alters your brain. As with so many things, you're too weak-minded to figure this out, and like so many Americans who style themselves "leftists" you're actually anything but this. That takes REAL free thought, not this manipulative histrionic horseshit you're peddling.

All of which makes this extremely offensive:
"What if you were in Nazi Germany in the 1930's and somehow you KNEW the Jewish holocaust was coming, wouldn't you feel moved to act to stop it?"

In 1930s Germany, and everywhere else in Europe for that matter, it wasn't conservatives like you who fought Hitler. They were too busy jostling with each other to slurp him off. The people who fought him were the REAL leftists: the communists, anarchists, syndicalists, etc., i.e. the brilliant courageous principled type you see fit to sneer at, like Chomsky and Goodman.

How do I know all this about you? Because you ARE in Nazi Germany, stupid ass. RIGHT NOW. You're in a fascist imperial state that's whipping up a mass psychosis of race-hatred as a means to advance empire, the only difference being a trivial matter of who's targeted. This time it's Arabs. And how are you reacting to this? "Oh mwy Gwod, Clairisse, we have to kill all thuh ragheads, they're so ee-vull ! Hey pass duh clamm chowdah." You are EXACTLY like the complacent disgusting German Middle Class who massaged their tonsils with Hitler's cock as the Jews burned because they thought it would make them safe and their kids safe.

When you get your lungs sucked out through your mouth in a firestorm like they did in Dresden and Hamburg, now you'll know why.

This goes DOUBLE for you CT. Pop that scrambled vicious brain out of your head, wipe the memory, and drop it into a blonde-haired blue-eyed body named Von Klugensturm or some shit back in 1930s Germany, and Hitler would have

BEEN

YOUR

GOD!!

It all goes hand in talon with the way you hate leftists. That it was the leftists like Tito who opposed them with incredibly courageous guerrilla wars, or that the United States employed ex-Nazis following the war to help them slaughter those same leftists, and in so many other ways just took up right where they left off -- the significance of all this is entirely lost on you. "Hey, let's cozy up and suck America's cock now. Mmm, yummy, tastes like charred sauerbraten just like Ariel's. When do we get our F-16s?"
That is the full measure of your dishonesty.
 

YO BECKY!!: since *ONE*, *SINGLE* POINT can so drastically and instantaneously reverse your mind...

--EXCEPT THAT JEW WERE NOT THE FIRST PEOPLE TO LIVE IN PALESTINE AND THAT PALESTINE WAS NOT "A LAND WITHOUT A PEOPLE" (you know, those 750,000+ Palestinian refugees alone in 1948?). OR DO YOU PICK AND CHOOSE *WHICH* POINT SPARKS AN EPIPHANY IN YOU?

WHY HAVEN'T YOU ANSWERED THE CHALLENGE FROM THE OTHER THREAD?:

Cut-&-Paste:

Becky [rhetorical question asserting that Israel was attacked by those vicious Palestinians]: "What was the root cause of the 1956 war _against_ Israel?"

beckyjohnsonis_really_fullofshit: "Why don't you just google "the 1956 suez crisis" or "the 1956 suez war" with any other appropriate key words and report back to us about _who_ _actually_ started the war and what u.s. president eisenhower did about it?"

YOU'VE BEEN *AVOIDING* THAT QUESTION LIKE THE PLAGUE!!

WHAT'S UP!!


And you *still* haven't answered the question: Are/were you married to a Zionist Jew or do you have a close relative or inlaw who is a Zionist Jew -- or a Zionist (past/present) Jewish boyfriend? Or do you somehow exoticize or romanticize "the Jews?

IT'S LIKE YOU'RE MORE 'JEWISH' THAN THE *JEWS*!!

(I know what you said, they're a "slow" people and can't speak up for themselves.)

'FESS UP, BECKY!!: There's *SOME* reason that you *HAVEN'T* told us about why *one* *single* point or dispute about who shot one Palestinian child could suddenly have you swerving into reverse direction: that now the Palestinians are all *WRONG* (and kill their own kids in the heat of 'drunken' Islamic religious ferver; of course that doesn't explain the *Chrisian* and *secular* Palestinians; unless the Christian Palestinians shot their kids on Christmas, overcome by the birth of Christ!) and that the Zionists Jews are all *RIGHT*.
 

JA is finally beginning to see the light

He apparently is embarking on a journey toward the truth. He began by saying:

"WELL, BUT DON'T NELSON MANDELA AND DESMOND TUTU SAY THAT ISRAEL IS AN APARTHEID STATE?

HEY, BUT IF I HAD TO TAKE *THEIR* WORD OR *YOURS* -- NO CONTEST: IT'D BE *YOURS*!!"


Way to go, Juif Antagoniste! I had already lost all hope in you. Could you perhaps carry your newfound insights into the truth with you to Indybay?
 

Uhhhhh, darn... JA retreats to his comfort zone

Name us just ONE *people* that lived in the Land of Israel or Cana'an before the Israelites. (Remember, the Cana'anites don't count because they were a hodge-podge of many ethnic groups.)

The Land of Israel a.k.a Palestine WAS "a land without a people" as the "Palestinians", namely the local Arabs and other non-Jews, didn't constitue a people back then, Even a PLO Executive Committee member named Zuheir Muhsein admitted in March 31 1977 that there no Palestinian people had existed (hey everyone, by all means, Google this!). What compelling reason do I have to believe you over him?

Benny Morris counts only 700,000 "Palestinian" refugees in 1947/1948.

Juif Antagoniste, Becky Johnson doesn't feel the need to reply to your prying into her personal matters. Don't you think that has something to do with her refraining from answering your personal queries, Mr. Rude?

As to those Jews in Santa Cruz who don't subscribe to your stripe of rabid anti-Israel orthodoxy, I'd guess most of them become intimidated by your likes rather easily. If I were living there I'd probably set up confidence building workshops featuring intensive Krav Maga training as an important element to drum huge doses of fearlessness into them.
 

Truth Warper

I have yet to see proof showing Barbara Lubin's version is the ultimate truth of what transpired.

See the other thread for my detailed response to your sick and poisonous dung. You're truly a repugnant creature.
 

You mean _Warped_ Thinker

Critical Thinker: "The Land of Israel a.k.a Palestine WAS "a land without a people"

If you're "not defined" and recognized by some international body, or Zionists, as "a people" with "an internationally recognized name", or one recognized by Zionists, then you're not _people_ at all, and non-people have no rights at all, and thus no rights to even live where they do?

Some other people can then come along 2,000 years later to "reclaim" 'their' once ancient country?

We would have to move a lot of people back around in this world, and displace millions of others, if that were the standard and they wanted to reclaim their ancient land. Maybe starting with the Native Americans who's rights to do so are certainly a lot more valid than the Jews.

Btw, Becky said there was _no_ Palestine.

CT: "Benny Morris counts only 700,000 "Palestinian" refugees in 1947/1948"

Well, then that's okay? As long as it's not over "700,000", instead of at least 750,000? You, CT, sound like those holocaust deniers who say it wasn't really 6 million, but somewhat less, as though that makes a moral difference. Don't you think that's a little 'morally' petty, CT, to try to parse or minimize huge-scale mass human tragedy, especially for your being a Jew?

CT: "Becky Johnson doesn't feel the need to reply to your prying into her personal matters"

Why? Is she _embarrassed_ about having a Jewish husband, boyfriend, or relative, past or current? She did pointedly mentioned all her "dear" Jewish friends, although she said that they "are a big part of the _problem_". I bet Becky's "dear" Jewish friends would really appreciate hearing _that_ condescension from her. They won't even save themselves. They need _Becky_.

CT: "I have yet to see proof showing Barbara Lubin's version is the ultimate truth of what transpired."

If it weren't, then that would prove that the Palestinians have no rights, and no moral indigenous rights to live where the better part of a million of them lived back in 1948 alone? Not to mention those successively driven off in later waves?

If someone's "version wasn't the ultimate truth of what transpired" about whether or not a Nazi soldier killed a Jewish kid in Nazi Germany, that would 'prove' that Nazi-era Jews had no rights, especially no right to live in Germany?

CT: "As to those Jews in Santa Cruz...I'd guess most of them become intimidated by your likes rather easily. ... If I were living there I'd probably set up confidence building workshops..."

What you're saying, Critical Thinker, is that those Jews in Santa Cruz are pretty pathetic?
 

To anonymouse:

CT: The Land of Israel a.k.a Palestine WAS "a land without a people.

anonymouse: "Blah blah blah blah..."

If you had been able to momentarily set aside your stupid and utterly childish loony ranting about Thuh Zi-iiionists and the way you conflate human beings with *a people* (even notice there's an 'a' there?), you could have researched through Google and found that not only were these "Palestinian" non-Jews not defined as a distinct people by ANY non-Zionists (organizations OR individuals), but *they themselves* never even considered themselves a people, let alone defined themselves one. Try to get beyond your emotional issue about Thuh Ziiiionists for a few seconds, poor propaganda hack.

anonymouse:
"Some other people can then come along 2,000 years later to "reclaim" 'their' once ancient country?"

How many times must Becky Johnson and I repeatedly try to educate willing morons like you that most of the Jews were either exiled or had to abandon the land due to unbearable living conditions for Jews under various occupiers since, and that a Jewish population had lived in the Land of Israel during all that time?? And why do you refuse to acknowledge that the Arab invaders from the Arabian peninsula in the 7th century occupied a land they had no business claiming for themselves?

anonymouse:
"We would have to move a lot of people back around in this world, and displace millions of others, if that were the standard and they wanted to reclaim their ancient land.

Keep rolling your eyes heavenward like the dolt you are, I don't give a shit about your standard. The Jews were wronged in the past and then some returned from the exile to reclaim their historical homeland, earned it through a defensive war and UN recognition and now it's a fait accompli. Deal with it.

anonymouse:
"Maybe starting with the Native Americans who's rights to do so are certainly a lot more valid than the Jews."

Hey, willing moron, that's your problem. I'm not the one occupying stolen Native American land. You are. It's you -- yet another prissy American -- who's indirectly benefiting, even if passively, from the usurpation of north American lands from its indigenous inhabitants.

CT: Benny Morris counts only 700,000 "Palestinian" refugees in 1947/1948.

anonymouse:
"Well, then that's okay? Blah blah...

So I'm not allowed to point out that JA is hyping the number, heh moron? Fact is, most of those 700,000 people were NOT uprooted by Zionist/Israeli forces. Many of them, in fact, left because Arab leaders urged them to leave temporarily until the Jews are "driven into the sea" and the land is cleansed. How many times must I and others here try to enlighten dolts like you to these facts? All the irrefutable evidence we muster never satisfies you and your cohorts. You're evidently not interested in the truth as long as it vindicates the Israeli side.

anonymouse:
"You, CT, sound like those holocaust deniers who say it wasn't really 6 million, but somewhat less, as though that makes a moral difference."

You sound like a jackass who's about to compare the 1948 Arab defeat to the Holocaust and cannot recognize the truth of what occurred back then and is trying to cover up his unwillingness to face it with vapid strawmen and other petty moronic arguments.

anonymouse:
"Don't you think that's a little 'morally' petty, CT, to try to parse or minimize huge-scale mass human tragedy, especially for your being a Jew?"

Don't you think if you were capable of objectively parsing what you're now saying you would have realized you're talking exactly like a fucking crypto antisemitic idiot trying to harp on Jewish guilt you believe is dormant somewhere deep down the heart of each Jewish defender of Israel, and that you don't fathom that the number of "Palestinian" refugees shouldn't be inflated any more than the number of the other tragedies' refugees?

CT: Becky Johnson doesn't feel the need to reply to your prying into her personal matters.

anonymouse:
"Why? Is she _embarrassed_ about having a Jewish husband, boyfriend, or relative, past or current? Bla blah blah"

A thought I was talking to JA...I should have known better.

anonymouse:
"She did pointedly mentioned all her "dear" Jewish friends, although she said that they "are a big part of the _problem_". I bet Becky's "dear" Jewish friends would really appreciate hearing _that_ condescension from her. They won't even save themselves. They need _Becky_."

Hey moron, why are you telling me all this? Talk to her directly. Don't tell me you're too shy or one of those characters who're afraid of their own mother.

CT: I have yet to see proof showing Barbara Lubin's version is the ultimate truth of what transpired.

anonymouse:
"If it weren't, then that would prove that the Palestinians blah blah blah blah blah..."

Hey, moron, I suggest you set up an effigy made of straw and talk to it, 'cause I don't descent to that kind of lowly and time wasting game. You'll have to find yourself some other partner for your strawman nonsense.

CT: As to those Jews in Santa Cruz...I'd guess most of them become intimidated by your likes rather easily. ... If I were living there I'd probably set up confidence building workshops...

anonymouse:
"What you're saying, Critical Thinker, is that those Jews in Santa Cruz are pretty pathetic?"

I'm saying a Palestinian propaganda impacted morons like you seem to be taking advantage of their apparent timidity.


Now I suggest you do your homework before you try to trip me over next time. YOU as a debater on the Arab-Israeli conflicts are pretty pathetic.
 

"*anonymouse*"...!!???

To non-Critical Thinkifier,

re anonymouse: **LOOK WHO'S *TALKIN'*!!**


TO Becky: GOT SOME QUESTIONS ABOVE!!
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

Becky, why don't you tell them all about Haim Levin? You remember him, right? The ultra-right mossad agent, who tried to infiltrate Santa Cruz Earth First! and alot of other activist groups, circa 2000. You know, the guy who *ripped you off* for, remind me, was it $3,000?
 

Give 'em hell, JA!!

Truth Warrior to Shitical Stinker: you know, if you could actually DO this thing your screen name implies, you might have noticed that I never committed to Barbara Lubin's assertion that Israelis did the shooting. I just said Becky's version was a grossly ignorant concoction of apologetic horseshit, and it is. As such, it makes perfect sense she got it direct from Israeli media -- why would they strain to come up with a PLAUSIBLE lie to conceal a state crime, when all the people "who matter" are just going to automatically believe it anyway. Oh, and that would be because they're BIGOTS, of course.

BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS

Ha-ha-HAAAA-ha!

BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS

The scenario Bullshit Becky's presenting is NOT consistent with Noran Deeb's and the other girl's wounds, which ARE consistent with Barbara Lubin's version (multiple direct shots into a schoolyard matches up pretty well with "machine-gunning Palestinian children"). Take your conflations, mix them into a kilo of broken glass, and blow them straight up your ass with a Howitzer. You know -- the one you have sticking out your living room window, aimed at the UN school for deaf blind quadraplegic Palestinian orphans.

Similarly, and once again, your knee-jerk defense of Becky's trademark bitchiness succeeds only in revealing your weak command of U.S. English vernacular.

As for accounts corroborating Barbara Lubin, there's one on the newswire. You would have spotted it and blown another load of race-hatred there already if you EVEN RECOGNIZED HER NAME. Oh, silly me, why would you ever do that? She's just a "drugged cockroach scurrying around in a bottle" (as expressed by Rafael Eitan, IDF Chief of Staff, in 1983; many more of these here: www.whatreallyhappened.com/palestinians.html )

BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS BIGOTS

santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/15355/index.php
 

So which is it, Truth Warper? Time to take your meds.

On the one hand you say you didn't commit to Lubin's version that Israeli troops did the shooting; on the other, you're accusing the "Israeli media" of having struggled to concoct a lie plausible enough to be swallowed by the masses and are charging Israel with a "state crime". In other words you're holding both ends against the middle by simultaneously intimating you don't claim it was Israel's doing, but are also blaming Israel for it. On top of that, you're discussing Lubin's stuff in an improper place instead of in the thread it belongs. Either you don't take this board seriously or you forgot to take your meds today some time back.

It makes perfect sense that those who were "machine-gunning Palestinian children" were those jubilant Palestinian assholes you're bending over backwards not to consider suspected of firing the rounds that caused this incident's tragic outcome. Through your irrational behavior you've shown yourself to be in no position to determine that Israeli media organs concocted a lie to cover up Israel's culpability.

So what if my command of US English isn't perfect? Most people around the globe share this problem of imperfect fluency. That's hardly a crime. I'm barely troubled by that as I have morality and truth on my side whereas you've got lunacy, mendacity, racism, and loathsomeness on yours. Therefore it's not all that surprising that you find an occasional outlet for your frustration at getting busted time and time again by deriding me for my imperfect command of American English.

I have known Lubin's name for some months now owing to all the crap she and her Jewish anti-Zionist likes have pulled, notably her giveaway refusal to help any Israeli children wounded during the intifada. But that doesn't mean I owed you to find the thread you're now pointing me to, you deranged mental case.

Which brings me to all those sayings attributed to past and present prominent Israelis you clipped, and I'm not at all astounded that you took all those quotes as authentic. It has been proven, to name a few examples, that sayings #11, #12, #16 and #26 were fabricated by antisemites and anti-Israel bigots, and "quotes" #3, #17 and #26 were either doctored or fabricated. But why should a deranged antisemite like you let such facts hold him back?
 

There it is JA

"...trying to harp on Jewish guilt you believe is dormant somewhere deep down the heart of each Jewish defender of Israel..."

Yup. No remorse whatsoever. It's all rationalized as 'heroic martyrs defending the ancient Jewish homeland.'

And of course the Palestinians OWE THEM their blood for daring to inhabit the place they abandoned 1400 years ago. I mean, Who do they think they are? "People," like the Jews?

"The Jews were wronged in the past and then some returned from the exile to reclaim their historical homeland"

There it is: the victim card. It's what their entire edifice of rhetoric is built on. And they totally believe it. Of course, no other ethnic group of only 14 million has more than a tiny fraction of their wealth and power, or could dream of getting away with so much utter viciousness. But no no they're the Great Victims. Never Forget™

It's simply the most glaring and definitive display of bigot psychology visible in the world today.
 

Meds? But you and Becky were going to "torture me sane" remember?

You listed #26 twice. What was that about?

So let's see here, these two are iffy:

3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

And the rest of these are perfectly okay
Aw hell, what was I thinking? This aint nuthin.
Especially numbers 1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 13, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, and 27

1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies ­not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

13. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

14. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

15. "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

18. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

19. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

20. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

21. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

22. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

23. "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

24. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

25. "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

27. "We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world." (Chaim Weizmann, Published in "Judische Rundschau," No. 4, 1920)
 

What remorse? Which rationalization?

I've got nothing to express remorse over.

You refuse to even admit that the Arab League in general and the "Palestinians" in particular summarily rejected the 1947 UN Partition plan and that 5 Arab armies invaded Israel on May 15th 1948 to commit genocide on the local Jews together with the "Palestinian" fighters. So why should you be capable of admitting that many "Palestinians" tried to ethnically cleanse the Land of Israel of Jews?

You're such a joke, you switch your history versions more frequently than the socks you change: now you're falsely claiming the Jews abandoned the Land of Israel 1400 years ago. Go read some f**king impartial history of the land and you'll notice there was ALWAYS a Jewish presence, and hopefully you'll bump into a passage explaining that Jews seldom abandoned the Land of Israel before modern times.

Deranged antisemite, Truth Warper:
"There it is: the victim card. It's what their entire edifice of rhetoric is built on. And they totally believe it. Of course, no other ethnic group of only 14 million has more than a tiny fraction of their wealth and power, or could dream of getting away with so much utter viciousness. But no no they're the Great Victims. Never Forget™

It's simply the most glaring and definitive display of bigot psychology visible in the world today."

Nooooo, TW isn't antisemitic at all, oh not that, no chance, no sir.
 

to: "CT, the anonyMOUSE that roared"

Unless you are going to start using _your_ own name, CT, I wouldn't talk about anons. But, it's great that we've gotten to the point where zionists in _America_ have to hide out.

CT: ""Palestinian" non-Jews not defined as a distinct people..."

Since I'm sure that _only_ you and becky would not get the my point, I won't bother with your obtuseness. After all, I'm not trying to convince _you_. I'm so confident that any reader would understand my point on this that I won't bother to even symbolically refute you.

CT: "most of the Jews were either exiled or had to abandon the land due to unbearable living conditions..."

Well _that_ argument certainly 'justifies' a group of people 'coming back' from another continent where they were settled to reclaim "their" land after _2,000_ years! (This _is_ a symbolic refutation, because all one has to do is to say it and it makes perfect sense to anyone but a zionst.)

When the Palestinians wanted to expeditiously, not after 2,000 years, return to their land after they were driven off due to unbearable conditions, like anti-Palestinian pogroms (ethnic cleansing) and war, created by their occupiers (the zionists), Israel said _NO_. But I guess for you, ct, it's one (lower) standard for Jews and another for everyone else. That's what makes most people sick and tired of zionists. Zionists are nothing less than sociopathic moral hypocrites.

The only reason zionism still exists (well, admittedly besides the Christian zionist nuts) is because it is just another ME (semi-)theocratic regime propped up, albeit critically financed, by American imperialism. But one day the international political cost of the U.S. unequivocally supporting Israel and Zionism (more anti-U.S. hatred in the Muslim world of well over 1 _billion_ people and numerous countries, and a couple more neo-con failed U.S. invasions, and a couple more major anti-U.S. terrorist attacks, and a couple more Mideast countries getting nuclear weapons, and the loss of Saudi Arabia or some other ME country) will just become too high.

The original goal of sponsoring a European state in the ME was supposed to _help_ the Western imperialist powers (control the Suez, oil, and the Gulf), now in particular the U.S., not _hurt_ them. Britain realize this in 1948, and finally just left. The U.S. will take much longer to learn this lesson. (Like it took the U.S. much longer to learn their lesson in Vietnam, taking up where the French departed.)

When Israel is finally abandoned or falls as a Zionist state, no one will feel sorry for Israelis. Just like today, most of the world does not feel sorry for the American failure and American deaths in Iraq.

Finally, it wasn't Arabs that kicked the Hebrews out of Palestine, it was the Romans.

CT: "The Jews were wronged in the past and then some returned from the exile to reclaim their historical homeland, earned it through a defensive war and UN recognition and now it's a fait accompli. Deal with it."

What a totally pathological statement. See above.

Americans thought that their hubris was invincible too, before Iraq. How many Jews are already streaming out of Israel to go to the West - even to _Hamburg, Frankfurt and Berlin_ - and how many others, externally, have stopped going to live in Israel? That's what _you_ zionists and _Israel_ are "dealing with".

What Jew in their right mind wants to go live in Israel anymore? (Unless they come from some poverty-stricken country and can't get into another Western country.) Israeli society has become totally militarized, almost totally politically corrupted (financially), and completely on edge all the time.

Speaking of Israeli society being constantly on edge, what will happen when Iran gets the bomb?: _ONE_ or _TWO_ of which, depending on the bomb's size, could kill almost every Jew in Israel and completely destroy the economic and physical infrastructure. Income polarization in Israel is only 2nd to the U.S., in the economically advanced world. Social financial cuts are increasing all the time in Israeli society. The prime minister and his son have virtually become Jewish mafiosi capos. That's what Zionists like _YOU_ and _Israelis_ have to "deal with". Still smug?

CT: "I'm not the one occupying stolen Native American land."

Are you posting from the _U.S._ or Israel?

CT: [regarding Benny Morris' claims about the Palestinian refugees]

As with becky, in her ridiculous claim about Israel being attacked in the 1956 war, you're completely _WRONG_. Morris' book would explicitly refute your claim about your numbers and the refugee reason in his book on the Palestinian refugee problem. You obviously haven't actually read Morris, which is quite stupid of you not to do, while making easily refuted false assertions, in this forum. All anyone has to do is to read the summarizing appendix alone in Morris' book.

CT: "You sound like a jackass who's about to compare the 1948 Arab defeat to the Holocaust"

That "Arab defeat", as you try to morally spin and reduce it, was really the well-armed and well-trained zionist conquer and massacre of countless Palestinian men, women and children; the wiping out of over 400 Paletsinian towns and villages; and the initial driving out and ethnic cleansing in 1947-1948 alone of about or at least three-quarter million refugees; clearly, on its scale, a mass human cataclysm. Plenty of people, even many Jews, if unfortunately not nearly a majority, have physically and, especially, morally compared many aspects of nazi treatment of the Jews to the zionist treatment of the Palestinians. That European Jews, who had just emerged from their own mass human cataclysm, would do this, in the name of "self-determination" and "reclaiming their ancient land" is morally reprehensible.

CT: "Talk to her [becky] directly."

Another zionist double standard, from someone who interloped on another person's question to becky and tried to block her answer. Nonetheless, I'm talking to _you_. Deal with it or leave the discussion, if you can't take the moral heat.

CT: "Hey, moron, I suggest you set up an effigy made of straw and talk to it, 'cause I don't descent to that kind of lowly and time wasting game."

You don't do _WHAT_? ROTFLMAO!

<<"What you're saying, Critical Thinker, is that those Jews in Santa Cruz are pretty pathetic?">>

CT: "I'm saying a Palestinian propaganda impacted morons like you seem to be taking advantage of their apparent timidity."

So I take it you have a pretty low mental opinion of Jews in santa cruz.

CT: "Don't you think if you were capable of objectively parsing what you're now saying you would have realized you're talking exactly like _a fucking crypto antisemitic_ ..."

I saved this quote of yours for last: always the last resort of a zionist scoundrel when he's refuted with facts or sound single-standard moral analysis. It speaks for itself. It's your only remaining recourse.
 

The anony-jerk tries his best, part 1

Fact-Teflon moron:
"Unless you are going to start using _your_ own name, CT, I wouldn't talk about anons. But, it's great that we've gotten to the point where zionists in _America_ have to hide out."

I at least stick to one alias and that counts more than alternating between several or an unlimited number of monikers. Also, you've managed to miss the part above where I told you I'm not living in America. What's up with that, moron? If you wanna kid yourself I have something to fear from you, knock yourself off. If I has posted my real name and received a death threat on this site as Becky Johnson has, do you think I would become the least bit nervous? But do fire up your delusions if you so wish.
What you mean by "Zionists hiding out" is all those people who are remotely vocal defending Israel from vilification. You didn't mean just Zionist activists per se.

CT: "Palestinian" non-Jews not defined as a distinct people...[removing my words from their context so you'd be able to suggest to yourself you've scored a point at my expense.]

Moron:
"Since I'm sure that _only_ you and becky would not get the my point, I won't bother with your obtuseness. After all, I'm not trying to convince _you_. I'm so confident that any reader would understand my point on this that I won't bother to even symbolically refute you."

See my remark in brackets above.

CT: most of the Jews were either exiled or had to abandon the land due to unbearable living conditions...[once again taking the facts out of their context, and now ignoring the important statement of fact right on the heels of this quote, explaining that there was ALWAYS a Jewish population in the Land of Israel]

Moron:
"Well _that_ argument certainly 'justifies' a group of people 'coming back' from another continent where they were settled to reclaim "their" land after _2,000_ years! (This _is_ a symbolic refutation, because all one has to do is to say it and it makes perfect sense to anyone but a zionst.)"

You're incapable of better than an *attempt* at a "symbolic" rebuttal that ignores all those historical subtleties you don't want to bother with. For example, in the 6th century the local Jews were in good enough a position to begin rebuilding the Temple under the auspices of Byzantine Caesar Justian "the Heretic", a project which was sabotaged only by an earthquake that destroyed the bulding's foundations and Justian's untimely death in battle shortly thereafter; or the brief period during which the Jews controlled Jerusalem at the blessings of the Persian occupiers in the beginning of the 7th century; or the period of Jewish prosperity in the land a few centuries back.
But all the fun you're having now with ancient history has distracted you from the main point: all the palavers you post here cannot undo Israel. Those looking for a realistic solution do not keep complaining over and over how Thuh Zi-iiionists reclaimed Israel or that the Jewish case is weaker than the Native Americans'. Solutions need to be thought from the present.

Moron:
"When the Palestinians wanted to expeditiously, not after 2,000 years, return to their land after they were driven off due to unbearable conditions, like anti-Palestinian pogroms (ethnic cleansing) and war, created by their occupiers (the zionists), Israel said _NO_."

That's an invalid assertion because most "Palestinians" are Johnny-come-laties whose ancestors first arrived in the land only since the late 19th century. I and others have repeated this countless times only to see boneheads like you ignore it. Secondly, you're not mentioning that the "Palestinians" tried to genocide and ethnically cleanse the Jews, and that the disputed territories were in fact cleansed of Jews. I'm fed up with repeating this to jackasses who steadfastly refuse to do these facts justice.

Moron:
"Blah blah blah blah.......... That's what makes most people sick and tired of zionists. Zionists are nothing less than sociopathic moral hypocrites."

The problem is most people (neglecting those like you that aren't interested in historical facts they find too inimical to their convictions) have been misinformed by the anti-Israel propaganda you're so zealously reciting, what with your moronic generalizations. They're "tired" of all "Zionists" for at least some invalid reasons.

Moron:
"The only reason zionism still exists (well, admittedly besides the Christian zionist nuts) is because it is just another ME (semi-)theocratic regime propped up, albeit critically financed, by American imperialism."

Evidently all the anti-Israel morons keep reciting "Zionism = theocratic philosophy/regime". This horseshit only exposes how ludicrous the lot of you sound and how easy it is to dismiss your bullshit.

Moron:
"But one day the international political cost of the U.S. unequivocally supporting Israel and Zionism (more anti-U.S. hatred in the Muslim world of well over 1 _billion_ people and numerous countries, and a couple more neo-con failed U.S. invasions, and a couple more major anti-U.S. terrorist attacks, and a couple more Mideast countries getting nuclear weapons, and the loss of Saudi Arabia or some other ME country) will just become too high."

Even if you have a crystal ball somewhere, I'm not too impressed by your prophecy. Look what happened to Francis Fukoyama'a forecast about "The End of History". You're not even in his league. And don't be so sure another Mideast country will obtain nuclear capabilities.

Moron:
"The original goal of sponsoring a European state in the ME was supposed to _help_ the Western imperialist powers (control the Suez, oil, and the Gulf), now in particular the U.S., not _hurt_ them. Britain realize this in 1948, and finally just left. The U.S. will take much longer to learn this lesson. (Like it took the U.S. much longer to learn their lesson in Vietnam, taking up where the French departed.)"

Israel isn't putting all of its eggs in the US basket. A Sino-Israeli strategic relationship is growing stronger as we speak. You ought to give this some thought. I'm sure I've just dropped a bombshell on you.

Moron:
"When Israel is finally abandoned or falls as a Zionist state, no one will feel sorry for Israelis. Just like today, most of the world does not feel sorry for the American failure and American deaths in Iraq."

See my comment about the Sino-Israeli relationship. Don't forget many leftists maintain that China will replace the US as the global superpower.

Moron:
"Finally, it wasn't Arabs that kicked the Hebrews out of Palestine, it was the Romans."

That doesn't excuse the Arabs from all the religious persecution, the economic pressure (often a consequence of religious intolerance) and occasional pogroms that occasionally caused the Jewish population to drop. The problem is, clowns like you insist that Jews and Arabs got along all fine before Thuh eeeeevil ZZZiii-onists arrived on the scene.

CT: The Jews were wronged in the past and then some returned from the exile to reclaim their historical homeland, earned it through a defensive war and UN recognition and now it's a fait accompli. Deal with it.

Moron:
"What a totally pathological statement. See above."

Huh??? I doubt even you know what you're going on about now.


Look, I must go run some errands but will be back to deal with the remainder of your crap. Expect it.
 

Kudos -- most excellent

since CT may not answer your question as to where he's writing from, I'll do it: he's writing from Israel
 

The anony-jerk tries his best, part 2

Moron:
"Americans thought that their hubris was invincible too, before Iraq."

There's been no collective Israeli hubris for ages now. You're verrrry far from being up to speed. The Israeli hubris practically died out in the aftermath of the 1973 Yom Kippur war, which pretty much shattered the Israelis' over-confidence that seemed to loom tall since the 1967 Six Day war victory. I've read and heard about this topic from books and the Israeli talk shows and interviews more than you'd be able to appreciate.

Moron:
"How many Jews are already streaming out of Israel to go to the West - even to _Hamburg, Frankfurt and Berlin_ - and how many others, externally, have stopped going to live in Israel?"

There's concurrently been a great Palestinian immigration on the scale of hundreds of thousands from the disputed territories during the intifada period. Try to figure out the significance. After all, you need a balanced picture to form your views, not a skewed one.

Ignorant moron (that goes also for a few of your other ignorant observations):
"What Jew in their right mind wants to go live in Israel anymore? (Unless they come from some poverty-stricken country and can't get into another Western country.)"

Guess what? Just in 2004 a few hundred Jews came to live in Israel for good from the US and Canada. I'm talking very affluent people, professionals with academic degrees, who came of their own volition. These folks aren't uninformed idiots like some who constantly bash Israel on this site. They knew what they were sacrificing and what they intended to gain. They were aware of the dangers and the problems. There's also been a marked increase in the immigration of French Jews who could have settled in Canada instead, for instance.

Moron:
"Israeli society has become totally militarized, almost totally politically corrupted (financially), and completely on edge all the time."

You've just shown yet more of you're relative ignorance, some of which leans toward the breathtaking. Now more than ever, the IDF has faces a surplus of inductees which either find their way out of regular military service after a relatively short while, or don't get drafted in the first place. Then there are the people who shirk military service for personal/selfish reasons (not the refuseniks). Then we have the reserves forces who are smaller nowadays than ever and are called to duty less than ever before, be they yeomen or officers. And many Israelis have been given premature dismissals from reserve service.
I know a few people who chose not to do get drafted for personal reasons and aren't ashamed of it. This would have been unthinkable thirty or twenty five years ago.
Many Israeli are often on edge due to all those terrorists you and your ilk keep apologizing for. So? Your point is what, that you're a great person for having rooted for the detestable terrorists who have put so many innocent Israelis on edge?

Moron:
"Speaking of Israeli society being constantly on edge, what will happen when Iran gets the bomb?: _ONE_ or _TWO_ of which, depending on the bomb's size, could kill almost every Jew in Israel and completely destroy the economic and physical infrastructure."

What about the Arabs there? Are you suddenly posturing as limiting your concern only for Jews? By your own standards, that's bigoted and racist.
As I told Truth Warper a few weeks back, if the US fails to deliver a military strike to eliminate Iran's nuclear capability, then Israel would do it. And even if that won't happen for some odd reason, Israel is equipped with Arrow missiles that can intercept any missile or aircraft that would try to launch a nuclear strike against it. Capice?

Moron:
"Income polarization in Israel is only 2nd to the U.S., in the economically advanced world. Social financial cuts are increasing all the time in Israeli society. The prime minister and his son have virtually become Jewish mafiosi capos. That's what Zionists like _YOU_ and _Israelis_ have to "deal with". Still smug?"

Every post-modern country has to deal with some corrupt shit. I wasn't smug to begin with. I did, however, detect a distinct air of anti-Zionist smugness of an omniscient-wannabe type on your part.

CT: I'm not the one occupying stolen Native American land.

Moron:
"Are you posting from the _U.S._ or Israel?"

If you weren't a moron, you would've been sufficiently intelligent to know by now after having attentively reading my posts over the last few days. I wouldn't be labelling you a moron if you weren't acting like one.

Moron:
"As with becky, in her ridiculous claim about Israel being attacked in the 1956 war, you're completely _WRONG_. Morris' book would explicitly refute your claim about your numbers and the refugee reason in his book on the Palestinian refugee problem. You obviously haven't actually read Morris, which is quite stupid of you not to do, while making easily refuted false assertions, in this forum. All anyone has to do is to read the summarizing appendix alone in Morris' book."

There are two books by this historian published about a year ago. I was alluding to only one of these. It was anti-Zionist who alerted me to the Morris' claims that I've recited here by pointing me to a Ha'aretz interview conducted with him January '04. Your omniscient-scented over-confidence on this point exemplifies how easily your average claim could be dismissed.

CT: You sound like a jackass who's about to compare the 1948 Arab defeat to the Holocaust

Moron:
"That "Arab defeat", as you try to morally spin and reduce it, was really the well-armed and well-trained zionist conquer and massacre of countless Palestinian men, women and children; the wiping out of over 400 Paletsinian towns and villages; and the initial driving out and ethnic cleansing in 1947-1948 alone of about or at least three-quarter million refugees; clearly, on its scale, a mass human cataclysm."

Now here comes the projection phase of the Israel-bashing tirade...one of the resorts of the anti-Zionist scoundrels when they begin to feel the heat. I wasn't trying to spin or reduce it. It WAS a tragedy for many ordinary Arabs. But all your attempts to overlook the Arab ethnic cleansing of the disputed territories and the Arab attempts to commit genocide will come to naught. The Jews were severely outgunned and outnumbered especially at the war's first stages and at a few points along the road weren't too far from losing it all. You're spinning alright. Morris' book I'm relying on now puts the number of Arabs massacred at the hands of Zionist/Israeli troops at *less than 1000*. During the fall and winter of 1947, at least 150,000 "Palestinians" left Palestine of their own volition, NOT fleeing under duress or fear of the horrors of war. Still many other fled ignominiously before the progress of war caught up with them, as attested to by the *British* commander of the Arab legion. Your claim of "three-quarter million refugees"
driven out "in 1947-1948" "initially" is obvious mendacious hyperbole that is refuted by contemporary non-Zionist and even anti-Zionist newspaper reports. What do you bet you'll drain their contents out of your mind after several days or hours and then pretend you never saw any facts refuting your lies if I actually prove what I'm talking about?

Moron:
"Plenty of people, even many Jews, if unfortunately not nearly a majority, have physically and, especially, morally compared many aspects of nazi treatment of the Jews to the zionist treatment of the Palestinians."

Many people would always make uninformed or poorly informed comparisons as in this case.

Crypto antisemitic patronizing moron:
"That European Jews, who had just emerged from their own mass human cataclysm, would do this, in the name of "self-determination" and "reclaiming their ancient land" is morally reprehensible."

What's morally detestable is that propagandizing jackasses like you would dare to make such a factually and morally preposterous comparison on such a big scale without studying the issue also from Zionist sources.
Now, even if some Holocaust survivors per se were actually involved in perpetrating the massacres that Benny Morris had found proof for, why are you giving the local Arabs who committed all their atrocities a free pass? I'm talking about massacring Jews, dismembering Jewish corpses and disemboweling them (a phenomenon that began at least as early as the Aug 1929 Hebron massacre btw).

CT: Talk to her [becky] directly.

Moron:
"Another zionist double standard, from someone who interloped on another person's question to becky and tried to block her answer."

I'm laughing at you right now, at how you paint me with that magic, purportedly all-explaining word "Zionist". But I find it even more entertaining that you believe I tried to prevent her from answering. I did no such thing. And she doesn't wait for my approval to answer anyone. The attitude embedded in your contention more than just reeks of sexism. But you'll never be able to admit that because a "Zionist" was the person who brought that to your attention.

Moron:
"Deal with it or leave the discussion, if you can't take the moral heat."

By any standard, I've been doing well engaging your input.

CT: I'm saying a Palestinian propaganda impacted morons like you seem to be taking advantage of their apparent timidity.

Moron:
"So I take it you have a pretty low mental opinion of Jews in santa cruz.

You too intellectually stunted to realize I was referring only to ONE aspect of their *dealings with antisemitism*, not with their overall collective mental state. I can't force you to alter your take. There's only so much that one enlighten someone of your limited intellect.

CT: Don't you think if you were capable of objectively parsing what you're now saying you would have realized you're talking exactly like _a fucking crypto antisemitic_ ...

Moron:
"always the last resort of a zionist scoundrel when he's refuted with facts or sound single-standard moral analysis. It speaks for itself. It's your only remaining recourse. "

You weren't refuting me other than within your own deluded mind. There are three possibilities here: (a) you're antisemitic on a subconscious or (b) a conscious level. That's why I didn't have other recourses.
 

If you knew what the Keffiyeh stands for, you'd rip it off your head!

"PALESTINIAN-WANNABEES??? DON'T YOU THINK THAT'S A LITTLE *RRRACIST*???"

The run around with Keffiyeh's on their heads at events though they are not Arab or Palestinian. I guess I'm a racist for noticing this? And if they had a clue what murder and killing has been done by the people who they are emulating, they would pull those towels off their heads in disgust. (Look at the 1972 Munich Olympics for starters)

Here's another quote from Nelson Mandela: "I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel, within secure borders."

Here's what the President of the ZOA, Morton A. Klein said about Bishop TuTu's remarks comparing Israel with Apartheid South Africa:

"Tutu's prejudice against Jews, hostility towards Zionism, and indifference to Jewish victims of Arab terrorism are not the qualities one normally expects to find in a man of peace."

BECKY: Barbara Lubin not only called my house, but she gave me her phone number. If you doubt me, ask her. I invited her to come on my tv show and debate Lee Kaplan. She declined.

Re: Amy Goodman. I really like her and think she's a courageous reporter. But she is 180 degrees wrong about Israel. It may be a personal grudge with her (her Grandfather was an orthodox rabbi). Whatever the cause, she is hell-bent on defaming Israel every chance she gets. She also does NOT report on Palestinian terror in any way commmensurate with her reporting on Israel.

Oh, Truth Warper? If it was the IDF that shot that little girl, why did the PA police arrest a Palestinian? Your refutation is that my head is made of plastic??? Oh, that's compelling. Right.

For the record I have never advocated killing all the Arabs. I have never called Arab people "ragheads" or "sand niggers". I also find the kind of personal attacks and name-calling you engage in reflects badly on your positions. If this were a formal debate, you would lose points not gain them.

For the record, I don't support transfer either, unless its voluntary.

But then its easy for me to not feel anti-Arab bigotry. I don't live in Israel. I'm not scared everytime I get on a bus. And I never had a family member or friend blown to bits by a Palestinian suicide bomber. So its easy for me to not harbor racist feelings toward Arab people. Its much more of a challenge for the Jews in Israel.

A solution to the conflict would involve a peaceful resolution between the Arab and the Israeli people. I personally feel its the Arab leaders who are the biggest obstacle to peace. And all your bally-hooing about dismantling the Jewish State of Israel (rather than supporting it) is only going to extend the conflict.

I didn't say there WAS no Palestine. I said there IS no Palestine. It no longer exists. And it NEVER existed as a sovereign country. The Jewish population in Palestine in 1882, right at the beginning of the Zionistic movement, was 25,000. The Palestinian population we see today, had not yet begun to migrate to that area.

Most Arab migration to Palestine dovetailed Zionist migration and the resulting farms and businesses that provided jobs. The early Zionists BOUGHT land from willing sellers. They did not "drive the Arabs from the land" (they may have had to evict some squatters after the land was purchased, but this hardly constitutes a human rights violation.

NOT writes: "When the Palestinians wanted to expeditiously, not after 2,000 years, return to their land after they were driven off due to unbearable conditions, like anti-Palestinian pogroms (ethnic cleansing) and war, created by their occupiers (the zionists), Israel said _NO_."

BECKY: Not true. The '48 war was driven by the Arab countries who rose up to drive the Jews into the sea (i.e. their aim was to genocide the Jews). As for Israel's "refusal" to let them return. How do you explain Israel's setting up a special board of their immigration dept. just to process applications for those who wanted to return? Do you discount that that board 'returned' 170,000 Palestinian Arabs inside of Israel where they immediately became Israeli citizens?

Also, how do you claim 700,000 or 750,000 Arabs became refugees in 1948 when the UN only counted 420,000? Where did those extra 300,000 Palestinian Arabs come from? (name your source)
 

YO BECKY!! COME WATCH YOUR BOY NON-CT GO DOWN IN *FLAMES*!! ...REMEMBER..., THIS COULD BE *YOU*!!

-

YO BECKY!! WATCH ME TURN NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER INTO MY **BITCH**!! ...HA-HA-HA!!

non-Critical Thinkifier: Benny Morris counts **ONLY** 700,000 "Palestinian" refugees in 1947/1948.

BENNY MORRIS (Israeli Jewish historian -- and proud ZIONIST):

"The United Nations Economic Survey Mission and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) put the figure at 726,000." (p 297)

"...the BRITISH, in February 1949, thought that there were 810,000 ..." (Ibid.)

"The Director General of **THE ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTRY**, Eytian, in a private letter in late 1950 referred to the UNRWA registration in 1949 of 726,000 as "meticulous" and thought that "THE REAL NUMBER WAS CLOSE TO 800,000." (p. 298)

"Because of [various] factors, it is impossible to arrive at a definite, persuasive estimate. My prediclection would be to opt for the loose, but probably not inaccurate, contemporary British formula, that of "between 600,000 and *760,000*" refugees." (Ibid.)

SO NOWHERE DID -- ACCORDING TO NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER -- "BENNY MORRIS COUNTS ONLY 700,000 "PALESTINIAN" REFUGEES IN 1947/1948."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anonymouse:
"Well, then that's okay?"

non-Critical Thinkifier: "Blah blah... So I'm not allowed to point out that JA is hyping the number, heh MORON? Fact is, most of those *700,000* people were NOT uprooted by Zionist/Israeli forces. Many of them, in fact, left because Arab leaders urged them to leave temporarily until the Jews are "driven into the sea" and the land is cleansed. HOW MANY TIMES must I and others here try to enlighten DOLTS like you to these facts? All the IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE we muster NEVER SATISFIES YOU and your cohorts. YOU'RE evidently *NOT INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH* as long as it vindicates the Israeli side."

non-Critical Thinkifier: "Now I suggest you do your homework before you try to trip me over next time. YOU AS A DEBATER on the Arab-Israeli conflicts ARE PRETTY PATHETIC."


BENNY MORRIS:

"AS TO April [1948] and THE START OF THE MAIN EXODUS, I HAVE FOUND *NO* EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THE AHC [Arab Higher Committee] ISSUED BLANKET INSTRUCTIONS, BY RADIO OR OTHERWISE, TO PALESTINE'S ARABS TO FLEE." (p. 290)

"If JEWISH ATTACK directly and indirectly triggered MOST of the Arab exodus up to June 1948, a small but significant proportion of that flight was due to DIRECT JEWISH EXPULSION ORDERS issued after the conquest of a site and due to Jewish pyschological warfare ploys ("whispering propaganda") designed to intimidate the inhabitants into leaving. ...As well, it was standard Haganah and IDF practice to round up and expel the remaining villagers (USUALLY OLD PEOPLE, WIDOWS, CRIPPLES) from sites already evacuated by most of their inhabitants, mainly because the occupying force wanted to avoid having to leave behind a garrison." (p. 288)

NOW, "SWINGING BECKY", WILL THAT GRAPHIC INFORMATION CAUSE YOU TO *LURCH* BACK OVER TO THE PALESTINIAN SIDE?

IF BARBARA LUBIN'S "LIE" CAUSES YOU TO SUDDENLY *LURCH* TO THE RIGHT AND BECOME 'SUPER [ZIONIST] JEW', WILL NON-CRITICAL THINKER'S *LIE* -- AND BENNY MORRIS' REVELATION -- CAUSE YOU TO SUDDENLY *LURCH* BACK TO THE LEFT AND BECOME "A PALESTINIAN WANNABEE"???

OR DO YOU SELECTIVELY PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH INFORMATION CAUSES YOU TO ABRUPTLY LURCH IN REVERSE???: DO YOU ONLY LURCH IN ONE DIRECTION!?

I SEE THAT YOU'RE NOT RUNNING TO ANSWER THE CRITICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT EVENTS, ETC, THAT YOU'VE BEEN AVOIDING LIKE THE PLAGUE!

YOU CLAIM THAT LUBIN WAS WRONG ABOUT ONE CHILD. BUT YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT A *WAR*!!

HOW DOES *THAT* CHANGE YOUR MIND? -- AGAIN.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOW, NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER, *WHO'S* THE MORON, DOLT, ETC...?

AND ***WHO'S*** MY BBBITCH!!!?

-
 

re above: "YO BECKY!! COME WATCH YOUR BOY NON-CT GO DOWN IN *FLAMES*!! ...REMEMBER..., THIS COULD BE *YOU*!!"

Clarification -- non-Critical Thinkifier's false claim should have been put in quotation marks, as:

non-Critical Thinkifier: "Benny Morris counts **ONLY** 700,000 "Palestinian" refugees in 1947/1948."
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

you lose readers and credibility when you use sexist terms like *bitch* *cunt* etc...
 

Re: COME WATCH YOUR BOY NON-CT GO DOWN IN *FLAMES*!!

Juif Antagoniste, which book are you quoting from? What's it's title?

Note that you didn't refute my claims that majority of the 700,000 refuges were NOT uprooted by Zionist/Israeli forces. Many of them, in fact, left because Arab leaders urged them to leave temporarily until the Jews are "driven into the sea" and the land is cleansed.
 

DDAAAMMMN!!: non-CT is SLOW!! -- just like Becky said about some of them!

["The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949". (I already said, in my post above, Benny Morris' book on the Palestinian refugee problem.)]

First non-CT claimed that: "Benny Morris counts **ONLY** 700,000 "Palestinian" refugees in 1947/1948."

HAVING GONE DOWN IN A CONFLAGRATION OF UTTER IGNOMINIOUS FLAMES(!!!), then, FLAILINGLY, he tries to DESPERATELY come back with:

non-CT: "Note that you didn't refute my claims that majority of the 700,000 refuges were NOT uprooted by Zionist/Israeli forces. Many of them, in fact, left because Arab leaders urged them to leave temporarily until the Jews are "driven into the sea" and the land is cleansed."


AND, BECKY, NOT *ALL* OF THEM CAN *READ*...!!


BENNY MORRIS: "JEWISH ***ATTACK*** directly and indirectly triggered **MOST** of the Arab exodus up to June 1948" (p.287-288)

"AS TO April [1948] and THE START OF THE *MAIN* EXODUS, I HAVE FOUND *NO* EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THE AHC [*ARAB* Higher Committee] ISSUED BLANKET INSTRUCTIONS, BY RADIO OR OTHERWISE, TO PALESTINE'S ARABS TO FLEE." (p. 290)


YO NON-CT...!! I *WHHOOPED* YO ASS LIKE YOR DADDY!!

***BEEYATCH!!!*** ...


HA-HA-HA!!
 

It's football season!

Quasi-critical Dullard said: "Note that you didn't refute my claims that majority of the 700,000 refuges were NOT uprooted by Zionist/Israeli forces. Many of them, in fact, left because Arab leaders urged them to leave temporarily..."

And so I guess this completely cancels any possibility that Israel's permanent seizure of lands beyond the 1947 partition boundaries was and is criminal? Israel did contractually commit to those boundaries, right? This was just the first of many times you have used war as a pretext to grab as much land as you could and then used any conceit available (e.g. the 1967 cease-fire) to recalibrate the "legal reality" SO THAT YOU COULD DO THIS SAME THING AGAIN, and then shift the "reality" some more and do it AGAIN until you had everything you wanted, which was ALL OF IT, and they had nothing but their refugee hells in the neighboring countries and Gaza, where even there you have assaulted them mercilessly. The brutal criminality of this entire very deliberate program is obvious to any decent soul -- which of course leaves YOU in the dark -- and the only reason you've gotten away with it this long is because you're the premier pet of a blatantly criminal global empire.

Becky Insane-on chimed in: "The run around with Keffiyeh's on their heads at events though they are not Arab or Palestinian. I guess I'm a racist for noticing this? And if they had a clue what murder and killing has been done by the people who they are emulating, they would pull those towels off their heads in disgust. (Look at the 1972 Munich Olympics for starters)"

And because certain Palestinians have done criminal things, this makes ALL Palestinians vile sub-insects, so that expressing solidarity with the Palestinian PEOPLE in any such way is an outrage???? This reasoning is what's called S-P-E-C-I-O-U-S, i.e. typical of your tragically weak bigot intellect. You can apply it to the Palestinians and feel perfectly fine about this, but if you or that other "anti-Semite!" screamer around here were to catch someone else applying this exact same reasoning to Jews and their kippas -- and they could assemble at least as much historical reason to do this -- you would go totally nuts on them. Why is that, Becky? What could explain this strange and dramatic dichotomy in your emotional reactions? Could it be your gut-level sympathy for Israeli Jews is intense, but for Palestinians nonexistent?
"I guess I'm a racist for noticing this?" Noooo, ya think?


BECKY: "Here's what the President of the ZOA, Morton A. Klein said about Bishop TuTu's remarks..."


And what, pray tell, is the ZOA? Oh, I see, that would mean the Zionist Organization of America, wouldn't it? Oh good! We can rest assured this guy isn't a reactionary ideologue character assassin hatchetman, yessiree. Your bullshit is SO flimsy, Becky, it really is. Your mind is so totally pathologically closed that you betray yourself at every turn. You're the best double-agent the anti-zionists ever had.

BECKY: "I invited [Barbara Lubin] to come on my tv show and debate Lee Kaplan. She declined."

That's because you and Lee are clearly rabid ideologues who would never allow her a fair forum. You two have made this crystal clear right here by what you've said to Steven Argue on the same subject: that you would never agree to a fair structured format, and that Lee would be free to bark down any subject he didn't want aired while you just sat there and spasmed with multiple orgasms at his zio-godliness. Placing herself at the disposal of the likes of you two would have been a completely fruitless, i.e. STUPID, thing for her to do. Contrary to what your zionist friends have programmed you to believe, Becky, their opponents are not stupid. By definition, they're among the brightest and most principled in American society.

BECKY: "I really like [Amy Goodman] and think she's a courageous reporter. But she is 180 degrees wrong about Israel. It may be a personal grudge with her (her Grandfather was an orthodox rabbi)."

WHAT IS IT with this way you identify with zionist Jews so totally, to the exclusion of larger social and moral contexts? As Amy illustrates, even many Jews are nowhere near this closed and rabid. JA's right: if it's true that you're a gentile, this is really bizarre. Pathological even.
For that matter, some orthodox Jews are among Israel's most vocal critics. That's the tradition of Noam Chomsky's family. Ever heard of Naturei Karta?

BECKY: "She also does NOT report on Palestinian terror in any way commmensurate with her reporting on Israel."

That's because her show is a C-O-U-N-T-E-R-P-O-I-N-T to the corporate media, which grossly sides with the zionist viewpoint. The way this context completely fails to register with you just serves to show what your purposes are in being HERE: you want to silence any forum, any public voice, that is unreservedly critical of Israel, which is also why you want to force this "fairness" bullshit on Amy. Transparently, it's your strategy for squashing one of the few strong anti-zionist voices in American media. This "fairness" gambit is lifted right out of the GOP 'dirty tricks' handbook. Careful, Becky, your sleazy goombah friends are showing.

BECKY: "If it was the IDF that shot that little girl, why did the PA police arrest a Palestinian?"

I answered this already, plastic-head, right at the beginning of that post: he's a patsy. Did you miss that part?


BECKY: "If this were a formal debate, you would lose points not gain them."

Yeah, but it's not, it's a street-fight, so therefore you and your friends don't get to do your favorite thing and rig the game. Thank you for the constructive criticism though. That part at least was refreshingly sound.

BECKY: "But then its easy for me to not feel anti-Arab bigotry. I don't live in Israel. I'm not scared everytime I get on a bus. And I never had a family member or friend blown to bits by a Palestinian suicide bomber. So its easy for me to not harbor racist feelings toward Arab people."

Oh, my God, no, not the maudlin violins again! No! NO!!
BWWWAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRFFFFFFF!!!!
Oh my god, I puked my stomach out onto my lap.
Do you actually imagine this 'maudlin violins' thing is persuasive to anyone who doesn't already share your one-track sensibilities? What about the survivors of the unarmed expectant Palestinian father who got his brains blown out at the checkpoint? What about the parents of the hundreds of kids blown away by the IDF, for reasons that often seem flagrantly improvised after the fact? What about the people whose homes and olive orchards are bulldozed, for reasons that include making way for this concentration camp wall that's closing in around them. How hard do you think it is for them, in their unbearable sorrow and impotent rage, to resist that same bigot impulse? Can your brain even support sympathy for them? I don't think it can. And you puke out this putrid noise that you're no anti-Arab bigot! It's just absolutely gross.

BECKY: "I personally feel its the Arab leaders who are the biggest obstacle to peace."

Oh my God what a shock that is. Now that you've said this though, I feel a strange transformation coming over me. Oh my, it's- urg-gack!
Yesssss Beck y. I un der stand now. Hungry. Must. Eat! Must have brains! ARAB BABY BRAINS!!!! (shuffle, lurch, shuffle, lurch)
I'm sure you know all about this.

BECKY: "And all your bally-hooing about dismantling the Jewish State of Israel is only going to extend the conflict."

Israel is as doomed as the global imperial order that sustains it. As soon as the Western empires collapse, which is bound to happen sooner or later (it's a fundamental fact of empires), probably sooner, the entire Islamic world will close in on them like a billion wolves. If the Israelis were less fanatical and more rational, they'd recognize this and start thinking 'exit strategy.'

BECKY: "I didn't say there WAS no Palestine. I said there IS no Palestine. It no longer exists. And it NEVER existed"

First of all, this statement is deliciously self-contradicting. If Palestine "NEVER existed," why are you making this defensive point that you never said that?
Secondly, this is just another of your weak desparate evasions. The Palestinian half of the 1947 partition plan "doesn't exist" now because Israel forcefully dissolved it, and that's EVERYTHING JA's talking about. All the conceits you employ to pretend it was "never" a sovereign realm of anyone other than zionists are products of the British colonial dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire, which you very tellingly fail to mention. By design, Britain's policies and assignment of "sovereignty" were totally unresponsive to the political desires of the local majority -- all of which is most convenient to your selective taste in half-truths, because those desires are the exact thing you seek to minimize or deny altogether.

BECKY: "The Palestinian population we see today, had not yet begun to migrate to that area."

So before the "people without a land" arrived, this crossroads of the middle east on the Mediterranean coast with all its Islamic holy sites was an uninhabited apolitical howling wilderness, is that it? You don't even understand how weak this is do you?

BECKY: "Most Arab migration to Palestine dovetailed Zionist migration and the resulting farms and businesses that provided jobs. The early Zionists BOUGHT land from willing sellers. They did not "drive the Arabs from the land" (they may have had to evict some squatters after the land was purchased, but this hardly constitutes a human rights violation."

Uh-huh. And then Jabotinsky got going, and all that changed forever. Yes, Becky, we know this.
"Willing sellers?" Huh? But you said it was uninhabited.

BECKY: "Do you discount that that board 'returned' 170,000 Palestinian Arabs inside of Israel where they immediately became Israeli citizens?"

170,000 allowed back out of 750,000 illegally permanently displaced so you could steal their land -- or even out of 420,000 -- is not really a thing to wank on about in this way, i.e. it is an injustice, not a "justice" as you're spinning it.


Well Becky, it's been great fun ramming my foot up your rectum again. Your urge to precipitate this bizarre sex ritual is no less weird than anything else about you. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. 'Til next time, hugs and kisses
 

Becky, if you only knew how **RACIST** you sounded, you'd shut up!!

JA: "PALESTINIAN-WANNABEES??? DON'T YOU THINK THAT'S A LITTLE *RRRACIST*???"

"The run around with Keffiyeh's on their heads at events though they are not Arab or Palestinian."

Well, I used to celebrate Shabbat (dinner) with a former Jewish roommate in our lovely dining room every Friday evening she was home. Did that make me Jewish even though I and our other roommate of hers shared in her religious culinary ritual?

"I guess I'm a racist for noticing this?"

YOU MEAN FOR CALLING PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS SUPPORTERS "PALESTINIAN-WANNABEES", THE NEAR EQUIVALENT OF "SAND-NIGGER LOVERS"?

NO, THAT DOESN'T SOUND RRRACIST.


"And if they had a clue what murder and killing has been done by the people who they are emulating,"

Is every Jew who wears a yarmulke a rabid racist redneck 'Jim Crow Jew' religious fundamentalist settler? --Or even a homicidal racist Zionist?


"they would pull those towels off their heads in disgust."

***"TOWELS"!!!???***

AS IN ***"TOWELHEADS"**** !!!???

THAT DOESN'T SOUND RRRACIST EITHER.


"(Look at the 1972 Munich Olympics for starters)"

And that's the equivalent of *all* Palestinians!!??

BECKY!! -- YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT **RACISM** IS!! -- DO YOU!?


" Here's another quote from Nelson Mandela: "I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel, within secure borders." "

Well, I can conceive that you probably -- given your manifest anti-Palestinian racism -- extracted this out of some context -- if Mandela even said that. I'M CHALLENGING YOU TO CITE THE SOURCE OR PROVIDE A URL!!


"Here's what the President of the ZOA, Morton A. Klein..."

Ummm-hmmmph..., "the PRESIDENT of the ZOA [**ZIONIST** ORGANIZATION OF AMERICA], Morton A. Klein..."

" ...said about Bishop TuTu's remarks comparing Israel with Apartheid South Africa: "Tutu's prejudice against Jews, hostility towards Zionism, and indifference to Jewish victims of Arab terrorism are not the qualities one normally expects to find in a man of peace." "

WHAT A SURPRISE!!: THAT THE HEAD OF THE **ZIONIST** ORGANIZATION OF AMERICA WOULD SAY SUCH A THING ABOUT AN INTERNATIONALLY PROMINENT, COMPELLING CRITIC OF ZIONISM -- ISRAELI APARTHEID.

SO, THEN, TUTU *IS* A RAVING ANTI-SEMITE, HUH!? -- JUST AS I SUPPOSED YOU THOUGHT BEFORE.

I WONDER WHAT KLEIN THINKS OF THAT GREAT "MAN OF PEACE" ARIEL SHARON!?


BY THE WAY, CORNEL WEST JUST GAVE A SPEECH THIS WEEKEND TO AN OVERFLOW AUDITORIUM IN OAKLAND. HE CRITICIZED ISRAEL'S COLONIAL RACIST PRACTICES TOO TO A ROUND OF APPLAUSE. WHAT DO YOU SAY NOW ABOUT HIM TOO?


BECKY: "Barbara Lubin not only called my house, but she gave me her phone number. If you doubt me, ask her."

Becky, I didn't doubt you...; I just said that I was disappointed to even hear that someone of Barbara's intelligence and stature [and someone so busy with a demanding schedule] would even waste time calling someone like *you*!! *I* woudn't!!

If I had Barbara's position and demanding scedule, you would have never heard from me -- ever!! (Well, I might have challenged you to a public debate just to publicly make a fool of you, since you claim to be a public activist and organization official.) I said it was like *Madame Curie* calling *Betty Rubble*!!


"I invited her to come on my tv show and debate Lee Kaplan. She declined."

I DON'T BLAME HER!! YOU KNOW NOT EVERYONE HAS THE WILLINGNESS TO GO DEBATE SOME LOUDMOUTH (AND POSSIBLY DANGEROUS) LOON! -- ESPCIALLY WHEN THE MICROPHONE IS NOT UNDER NEUTRAL OR FAIR CONTROL.

BUT, *I'LL* BE ON YOUR SHOW. JUST *ASK* ME!! I *LOVE* STICKIN' IT TO RACIST NUTCASES!! THE DUMMER THE BETTER!!

(IT MAKES MY VERBAL JABS THAT MUCH FUNNIER. SHIT, I MAKE FUN 0' NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER ALL THE TIME UP AT INDYBAY!!)

I MEAN, LOOK WHAT I DID WITH *YOU*!! -- AND MOST OF MY JOKES PROBABLY WENT RIGHT OVER YOUR HEAD!! NOW, AUDIENCES *REALLY* FIND THAT FUNNY!! YOU'RE A NATURAL *FOIL*!

LET'S JUST RECREATE MY 'INTERVIEW' ON YOUR RADIO SHOW, OKAY? THE AUDIENCE WOULD *LOVE* IT!

HAVE YOU CONSIDERED INVITING JEFFREY BLANKFORT? HE'D BE A GREAT ALTERNATIVE TO BARBARA!


"Re: Amy Goodman. I really like her and think she's a courageous reporter. But she is 180 degrees wrong about Israel."

Well, Amy comes to the Bay Area often enough. Why don't you *tell* her at her next Q&A!?

"It may be a personal grudge with her (her Grandfather was an orthodox rabbi)."

Yeah, I guess a grandfather-granddaugter complex, huh?

"Whatever the cause, she is hell-bent on defaming Israel every chance she gets. She also does NOT report on Palestinian terror in any way commmensurate with her reporting on Israel."

Well, you should ask her *why*, the next time she's giving a Bay Area lecture.


"For the record I have never advocated killing all the Arabs. I have never called Arab people "ragheads" or "sand niggers"."

*** JUST "TOWELHEADS", RIGHT!? ***


"For the record, I don't support transfer either, unless its voluntary."

JUST IMPERIALISM, COLONIALISM, MASSACRES, MASS ETHNIC CLEANSING, THE IMPOSITION OF A FOREIGN NATION-STATE, RELIGIO-RACIALLY LEGALLY DEFINED STATES, RESTRICTIVE REAL-ESTATE COVENANCES (i.e., restrictions against other people owning/leasing land on the basis of race or ethnicity; something Jews fought against and claimed was *immoral* in the U.S. when Jews couldn't buy/lease certain property because they were Jewish), ETC -- THAT'S ALL, HUH?


"But then its easy for me to not feel anti-Arab bigotry."

***OBVIOUSLY***!!!

"I don't live in Israel."

WHY NOT? MAYBE YOU CAN SAVE THE JEWS FROM BEING SO SLOW -- EVEN "GLACIAL", AS YOU PUT IT.

CLEARLY, AS YOU SAID, YOU'RE NOT HAVING MUCH OF AN EFFECT ON YOUR MANY "DEAR" JEWISH FRIENDS IN SANTA CRUZ!

"I'm not scared everytime I get on a bus. And I never had a family member or friend blown to bits by a Palestinian suicide bomber."

HAVE YOU EVER HAD YOUR PARENTS' HOME TAKEN OVER BY A JEWISH FAMILY -- "FLEEING RACIAL PERSECUTION" -- WHEN YOU WERE A CHILD (AS I'M SURE THAT CHRISTIAN GERMAN FAMILIES MUST HAVE TAKEN OVER JEWISH HOMES IN THE NAZI ERA) -- AND THROWN OUT ON THE STREETS WITH YOUR FURNITURE?

HAS *YOUR* HOME BEEN TAKEN OVER BY A JEWISH FAMILY -- "FLEEING RACIAL PERSECUTION" -- AND YOU AND YOUR FURNITURE THROWN OUT ON THE STREETS?

HAVE YOU EVER HAD YOUR HOME BLOWN UP BECAUSE YOUR SON/NEPHEW THREW *ROCKS* AT THE POLICE OR SOLDIERS? -- OR FOR ANYTHING ELSE YOUR SON/NEPHEW HAS DONE? (THAT'S *REAL* "DEMOCRACY" IN ACTION, HUH?)

HAVE FULL-BODY-ARMORED SOLDIERS/POLICE EVER SHOT AND KILLED YOUR CHILD AS THE SUMMARY SENTENCE FOR *THROWING ROCKS* -- EVEN AT A TANK!? OR FOR THE CRIME OF PLAYING IN THEIR OWN YARD!?

MAYBE THAT WOULD HELP REDUCE THE CRIME RATE IN AMERICA!: IF YOUR SON/DAUGHTER COMMITS A MISDEMEANOR, FELONY, OR CAPITAL OFFENSE, THE POLICE/MILITARY HAS PERMISSION TO GO BLOW UP YOUR HOME!!


"So its easy for me to not harbor racist feelings toward Arab people."

AGAIN!!: THAT'S ***OBVIOUS***!!!


"Its much more of a challenge for the Jews in Israel."

SO, YOU WOULD *UNDERSTAND* IT, IF THE *JEWS* IN ISRAEL SUCCUMBED TO RACISM (ANTI-PALESTINIAN ANTI-SEMITISM).

BUT, IT WOULD BE DESPICABLE, HYPOTHETICALLY, FOR ANY PALESTINIANS -- WHOSE NATIVE LAND HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY; FAMILY MEMBERS KILLED BY THE MILITARY; HOMES DESTROY; ORCHARDS/FARMS DESTROYED OR MADE INACCESSABLE; WATER CONFISCATED OR DIVERTED -- TO SUCCUMB TO RACISM (ANTI-JEWISH ANTI-SEMITISM)?

THAT, IN ITSELF, OR YOUR BELIEFS ABOUT THAT, IS *NOT* RACIST TO YOU!?


"A solution to the conflict would involve a peaceful resolution between the Arab and the Israeli people."

HOW ABOUT A SECULAR, TRULY DEMOCRATIC STATE FOR ALL PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF RACE, RELIGION, OR ETHNICITY. BUT *THAT'S* TOO MUCH FOR *YOU* AND ZIONIST JEWS (HOWEVER RARE THEY MIGHT BE IN SANTA CRUZ), HUH?

THAT WOULD BE LIKE, IN 1859, "END SLAVERY!? WE CAN'T JUST *END* SLAVERY!! DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE BLACKS WOULD DO TO US!!? THEY MIGHT DO TO *US* WHAT WE DID TO **THEM**!!"


"I personally feel its the Arab leaders who are the biggest obstacle to peace."

WHAT A *SURPRISSSE*!!


"And all your bally-hooing about dismantling the Jewish State of Israel (rather than supporting it) is only going to extend the conflict."

YEAH, WE SHOULDN'T "BALLY-HOO" ABOUT ENDING, IDEOLOGICALLY AND LEGALLY, ETHNICALLY-DEFINED/-EXCLUSIVE/-CHAUVINISTIC STATES -- LIKE THE NAZI STATE.

I'VE ALWAYS MYSELF BEEN FOND OF HAVING THE U.S. LEGALLY SELF-DECLARED AS "A CHRISTIAN MALE STATE", WHERE CHRISTIAN MEN ARE LEGALLY PRIVILEGED OVER WOMEN, AND WOMEN ARE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO OWN OR EVEN LEASE NEARLY ALL OF THE PROPERTY, OR SO MUCH AS PUT A ROOM ADDITION ONTO THEIR HOMES!

FURTHERMORE, IT WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY ILLEGAL FOR ANY POLITICIAN OR OFFICIAL OF THE STATE TO CALL FOR SEXUAL EQUALITY!

*THAT* SHOULD KEEP WOMEN LIKE *YOU* IN THEIR RIGHTFUL PLACES: *DOWN*!!


"I didn't say there WAS no Palestine. I said there IS no Palestine. It no longer exists."

LIKE HITLER WITH CZECHOSLOVAKIA OR POLAND, HUH?


"And it NEVER existed as a sovereign country."

WELL, ISRAEL AS A NATION-STATE NEVER EXISTED BEFORE 1948.

NATIVE AMERICANS NEVER HAD "SOVEREIGN COUNTRIES". DID THAT JUSTIFY WIPING THEM OFF THEIR LANDS AND THE EUROPEAN GENOCIDE AGAINST THEM?

AFRICAN SLAVES NEVER HAD "SOVEREIGN COUNTRIES". DID THAT JUSTIFY SWEEPING THEM INTO CHATTEL SLAVERY?

EUROPEAN JEWS NEVER HAD A "SOVEREIGN COUNTRY" IN EUROPE. DID THAT JUSTIFY PROGROMS, WIPING THEM OFF THE LAND, MASS DISPOSSESSING THEM, AND GENOCIDE AGAINST THEM?

LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF A MANDATE -- AND SEE WHO IT WAS TO BE HELD IN TRUST FOR: THE *INDIGENOUS* PEOPLE -- NOT OTHER EUROPEAN COLONIZERS.

ANY FUNDAMENTALLY AND MORALLY, WHAT DOES IT MATTER? DOES ONE HAVE A RIGHT TO ETHNICALY CLEANSE AND MASSACRE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE BECAUSE THEIR NATIVE LAND IS SUPPOSEDLY NOT A "SOVEREIGN COUNTRY"?

That's like Eurpeans telling Native Americans that European colonizers can take Native land because "it's not fenced in" or "you don't have a country"!


"The Jewish population in Palestine in 1882, right at the beginning of the Zionistic movement, was 25,000. The Palestinian population we see today, had not yet begun to migrate to that area."

THE INDIGENOUS (MOSTLY NON-EUROPEAN) JEWISH POPULATION IN PALESTINE AT THE TURN OF THE 20TH CENTURY WAS BETWEEN 3-6%. Palestine was, for all practical purposes, an Arab country. And even the cultural practices of the indigenous Jews there were Arab. In fact, they were often known as "Arab Jews".

THE INDIGENOUS NON-EUROPEAN JEWISH POPULATION OF PALESTINE WAS NOT EVEN CONSULTED ABOUT WHETHER THEY WANTED A ZIONIST STATE.

EUROPEAN JEWS -- WHO NO MORE CARED WHETHER PALESTINIAN JEWS WANTED A ZIONIST STATE THAN THEY CARED WETHER PALESTINIAN ARABS DID -- COUDLN'T HAVE CARED LESS ABOUT THE NON-EUROPEAN PALESTINIAN JEWS AND, INDEED, RACISTLY LOOKED DOWN ON THEM.


"Most Arab migration to Palestine dovetailed Zionist migration and the resulting farms and businesses that provided jobs. The early Zionists BOUGHT land from willing sellers. They did not "drive the Arabs from the land" (they may have had to evict some squatters after the land was purchased, but this hardly constitutes a human rights violation."

BEEN READING JOAN PETER'S DISCREDITED BOOK "FROM TIME IMMEMORIAL", HUH? I CALL HER BOOK "THE JEWISH MEIN KAMPF".


FIVE THINGS THAT EVERY COLONIAL RACISTS -- ESPECIALLY EUROPEAN SETTLER-COLONIALISTS -- ALWAYS DID -- *EVERYWHERE* THEY WENT (IN AFRICA, IN THE AMERICAS, IN ASIA, AND IN PALESTINE), LIKE CLOCKWORK:

(1) THEY GO SOMEWHERE TO THE NON-EUROPEAN WORLD, WITH THE BIBLE & THE GUN, OFTEN CLAIMING PERSECUTION, AND THEN, ALSO CLAIMING "GOD'S WILL", IN TURN, HYPOCRITICALLY KILL, PERSECUTE, AND OPPRESS OTHERS.

(2) DENY THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE'S PERSONHOOD OR PEOPLEHOOD (THEY REALLY AREN'T PEOPLE OR A PEOPLE);

(3) DENY THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE'S CULTURE (THEY DON'T HAVE ONE);

(4) DENY THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE'S HISTORY (DENY/ERASE IT);

(5) DENY/DIMINISH THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE'S IMMEDIATE TIE TO THE LAND (THEY HAVE NONE; IN FACT, IT'S ALWAYS A VAST EMPTY "LAND WITHOUT A PEOPLE").


"not a person" writes: "When the Palestinians wanted to expeditiously, not after 2,000 years, return to their land after they were driven off due to unbearable conditions, like anti-Palestinian pogroms (ethnic cleansing) and war, created by their occupiers (the zionists), Israel said _NO_."

BECKY: "Not true. The '48 war was driven by the Arab countries who rose up to drive the Jews into the sea (i.e. their aim was to genocide the Jews)."

YOU SEE, BECKY, THIS IS WHERE IT'S FUNNN -- ONCE AGAIN -- TO REVEAL YOUR UTTER STYOOOPIDITY!!:

THE UN JEWISH PARTITION IN PALESTINE WAS ***NEVER*** ATTACKED BY ***ANY*** ARAB COUNTRY! -- IN FACT, IT WAS EXPLICITLY *NOT* ATTACKED (sometimes by secret agreement)!!

ISRAEL'S 1948 WAR WAS, AS BEN GURION ET AL HAD PLANNED, WAS REALLY ISRAEL'S IMMEDIATE "WAR OF EXPANSION".

IN FACT, BEN GURION -- AND OTHER ZIONISTS -- ALWAYS SAID THAT THEY HAD PLANNED ON MILITARILY EXPANDING BEYOND THE UN JEWISH PARTITION.

THE SURROUNDING ARAB COUNTRIES (EACH FOR THEIR OWN REASONS) MOVED IN TO TRY TO TAKE/HOLD LAND OUTSIDE THE JEWISH PARTITION, RIGHTFULLY FEELING THAT ISRAEL WOULD TAKE MORE LAND BY FORCE.

(THE PARTITION ITSELF UNFAIR, BECAUSE IT GAVE THE EUROPEAN JEWISH INFLUX, MOSTLY ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION BY BRITISH STANDARDS, THAT HAD SWELLED TO ABOUT 30% OF THE POPULATION, ABOUT 56% OF THE LAND.

SO STILL *70%* OF PALESTINE'S POPULATION, MOSTLY PALESTINIAN ARABS, WAS ALLOWED JUST LESS THAN 45% OF THE LAND!

NAME ANY OTHER COUNTRY/PEOPLE IN THE WORLD THAT WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED THIS.)

ISRAEL EXPANDED FROM ABOUT 30% OF PALESTINE TO ABOUT 78% OF PALESTINE.

ISRAEL HAS BEEN IN ABOUT 5 WARS -- AND ALL BUT ONE WAS A PRETEXTUALLY STARTED BY *ISRAEL* TO TAKE ADDITIONAL LAND BY FORCE.

REMEMBER WHEN YOU SAID THAT THE AYE-RABS STARTED ALL OF ISRAEL'S WARS?

BECKY, YOU'RE JUST SUCH A ***FFOOOLLL***!!

I'VE JUST BEEN *****AMUSING***** MYSELF AT YOUR EXPENSE, BUT I'M TIRED OF PLAYING WITH YOU ANYMORE!!


As for Israel's "refusal" to let them return. How do you explain Israel's setting up a special board of their immigration dept. just to process applications for those who wanted to return? Do you discount that that board 'returned' 170,000 Palestinian Arabs inside of Israel where they immediately became Israeli citizens?

YEAH, AND THE NAZIS SET UP SPECIAL BOARDS TO "PROCESS" THE JEWS AND TOLD THEM THAT THEY COULD ONE DAY RETURN TOO.

WHERE IS THE PALESTINIAN RIGHT OF RETURN NOW?

WE ALL KNOW THAT THERE IS A RIGHT OF "RETURN" FOR "JEWS" WHO HAVE NEVER EVEN TOUCHED TOE TO PALESTINE (OR "ISRAEL").

ISRAELIS HYPORCRITICALLY AND ANTI-SEMITICALLY WORRY ABOUT "TOO MANY ARABS" AROUND, JUST AS EUROPEAN (OR AMERICAN) CHRISTIANS/GENTILES USED TO ANTI-SEMTICALLY WORRY ABOUT "TOO MANY JEWS" AROUND!!

"Also, how do you claim 700,000 or 750,000 Arabs became refugees in 1948 when the UN only counted 420,000? Where did those extra 300,000 Palestinian Arabs come from? (name your source)"

DIDN'T YOU SEE ME TURN NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER INTO MY BEEYATCH...? I'VE ALREADY DEALT WITH THIS ISSUE.

YOU GOT THE ANSWER NOW?

IT'S JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF YOUR UTTER SHEER ***STYOOOPIDITY***!!

OKAY, I'M TIRED OF BEING AMUSED BY YOU NOW.
 

Taking my quotes out of context to distort them---What else is new?

You quoted me as saying: "I didn't say there WAS no Palestine. I said there IS no Palestine. It no longer exists. And it NEVER existed"

YOU FORGOT THIS PART: ...as a sovereign country.

If you are going to quote me, quote me. If you lift a phrase out of a sentence, it may not mean what it meant in the context of the sentence.

NO, its not a street fight in here. There are rules. There are monitors. I don't know why they give Truth Warper a free pass with all of his/her personal attacks, sexist and dehumanizing comments, but then....you are attacking me---and the GENIUSES of IMC are not above letting a shmuck like you say any filthy, foul, or unsupported attack you want to say---as long as its directed at me.

Truth Warper wrote: "What about the parents of the hundreds of kids blown away by the IDF, for reasons that often seem flagrantly improvised after the fact?"

This a flagrant lie. Can you find ONE kid, with a name, a date, a city, or some other details so we can examine the specifics of your alleged charge?

Every case you've brought up so far has been a fraud. I haven't seen you score a single clean hit in any incident.

Your Sabra & Shatila arguments have been challenged. Iman al-Hams and the map show she was no where near 'on her way to school' when she got shot. The child Barbara Lubin was so quick to blame on the IDF was most likely hit by Palestinian bullets accidentally.

I feel confident of this because I have studied enough cases to know that the IDF does not go around shooting people for no reason, and certainly not children walking to school.

You can't assume that every person who gets hit by a bullet was shot by the IDF. But that's what Barbara Lubin and her ilk do. That is what Steve Argue does, and even after all the facts are presented to the contrary, he brazenly assumes that the evidence has been forged, and HE is still right!! My God, what an ego!!!

Truth Warper wrote: "The Palestinian half of the 1947 UN partition plan "doesn't exist" now because Israel forcefully dissolved it"

BECKY: WRONG!!! Israel ACCEPTED the partition plan, the Arabs rejected it, and responded by massing Arab armies and waging war against the State of Israel, only one day old.

That is why I say there is no longer any Palestine. IF the Arabs had accepted a state of Palestine, they would have had it. Typical of you to blame Israel for something that ONLY the Arabs did.

I agree that prior to 1947, the land then called Palestine was under the control of the British. I also agree that prior to the British it was under Ottoman control. Why do you say I deny these facts when I never have?

SOME POPULATION STATISTICS: The census of 1893 gives a total of 414,648 Arab Palestinians. Rodinson listed 469,000 Arabs for 1893, Bacchi claimed there were 489,000, McCarthy estimated 553,000, and Rupin estimated about 600,000 all for approximately the same year. Likewise, as noted, there were wide discrepancies for Jews as well. Maxime Rodinson claimed there were only 7,000 Jews in 1870, and 10,000 in 1893 (apparently taking the Jewish population figures, but not the Arab ones from the Turkish census of that year) while Bacchi estimated that there were about 42,000 Jews in 1893.
(the beginning of the Zionist movement)

The land was very sparsely populated. This same land now holds 10 million people and has room for more. So if there were half a million Arabs, it was still largly and empty land. What I said is the ancestors of the modern Palestinians had not yet begun to migrate to the land that would become Israel in 1882. Most Palestinians today are decendants of workers who migrated to the areas where the Zionists had developed agriculture and industry and had good jobs for them. Their ancestral 'roots' are in the countries they came from, most notably Jordan. They called themselves "Arabs" and there was much talk of a unified pan-Africa Islamic state. These Arabs ruled over land which is 800 times the land mass of Israel.
 

Israel got 56% but the Arabs got a lot more

My mama didn't raise no fool.

And you can't fool me with your phoney statistics. All this talk about how only 30% of the population was Jewish and the UN partition gave 56% percent of Palestine to the Jews with 70% of the population having to settle for 45% of the land of Palestine, ignores the fact that Palestine had ALREADY been partitioned once before into a Jewish and an Arab state. The Arab state (Jordan) was on 75% of Palestine. Yup, you got it. The Jewish State was given the remaining 25%.

That was all before 1947 when the British said, hey that was so nice, let's do it twice! They took the remaining 25% of Palestine and DIVIDED IT AGAIN into an Arab State and a Jewish State.

And YOU come in here blabbering about how UNFAIR that was--put up your phoney feature map--- that PROVES (to ignoramusses who skipped world history in high school opting to smoke cigarettes behind the dumpster instead) how UNFAIR the 1947 UN partition was.

YOU DO THE MATH!!! If you add in the original 75% back in to the total area of British Mandate Palestine, you find the Jews were allotted about 14% of the land.

And you come in here and whine to the IMC readers that the Jews got too much and it wasn't fair to the Palestinians.

Why should they believe anything else you write about if you are willing lie by ommission and leave out such an important element in your argument? Are willing to deceive your readers so brazenly? Don't tell me you didn't know.
 

DO THE MATH, BULLSHIT BECKY! YOU'RE SUCH AN AIRHEAD!!

IF WE TAKE THE LOWEST AND HIGHEST COMBINATION, ACCEPTING YOUR FIGURES FOR SAKE OF ARGUMENT,

THAT WOULD PUT THE JEWISH POPULATION OF PALESTINE WAS BETWEEN APPROX 1-8%.

IF WE THROW OUT THE LOWEST AND THE HIGHEST COMBINATION, MY FIGURE OF APPROX 3-6% WOULD BE IN LINE.

THAT MEANS THAT JEWS WERE A DISTINCT MINORITY IN MANDATE PALESTINE. THAT MEANS THAT ZIONIST IMPOSED A FOREIGN *EUROPEAN* "JEWISH STATE" IN AN OVERWHELMINGLY ARAB COUNTRY!

IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE "A JEWISH STATE" IN AN OVERWHELMINGLY ARAB COUNTRY, THEN, POLITICALLY OR DEMOGRAPHICALLY, YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING WITH ALL THE ARABS!

AS FOR YOUR OLD ZIONIST CANARD, "JORDAN IS PALESTINE" ARGUMENT, YOU'RE SUCH A MORAL (AS WELL AS MENTAL) ***AIRHEAD*** THAT YOU DON'T REALIZE THAT **IT MAKES _NO_ DIFFERENCE**!!

NO ONE HAS A MORAL RIGHT TO PUSH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS -- OR, EVENTUALLY, OVER A MILLION OR MULTIPLES MORE PEOPLE OFF THEIR NATIVE LAND -- BECAUSE OF SOME BULLSHIT CLAIM TO AN ANCIENT BIBLICAL KINGDOM.

AND *NO* AMOUNT OF SUFFERING ENTITLES ONE PEOPLE TO GO MASS DISPOSSESS/TAKE SOME OTHER PEOPLE'S -- ESPECIALLY A *THIRD* PARTY PEOPLE'S -- NATIVE LAND.

BUT YOU KEEP ON TYPING BECKY. YOU JUST KEEP MAKING YOURSELF LOOK MORE AND MORE *BIZARRE* IN THE PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY.

***********************************************************************************
[HEY, NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER, so what you said before...: you, an arch-Zionist Jew (although Becky is really giving you a run for your money! - she's more 'Jew' than you! - ha-ha!) can't even use your real name -- you have to post anonymousely -- even posting from *Israel*. Man, that's rough!! Ha-Ha-Ha!!]
 

The clown Juif Antagoniste pulled a fast one on us

JA quoted from the book's first edition published in 1987. I was relying on the *second*, revised edition published a year ago called The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited. See www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521009677/qid=1107781347/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-5319497-0595867.

Moral of the story: always take JA's "scoops" with a huge grain of salt.

I never post my real name on the web. Don't flatter yourself as if it's because I'm afraid of you or the jerk that issued a death threat to Becky Johnson on this site several days ago.
 

Truth Warper, the lying racist shmuck

Truth Warper farts out:

"Quasi-critical Dullard said: "Note that you didn't refute my claims that majority of the 700,000 refuges were NOT uprooted by Zionist/Israeli forces. Many of them, in fact, left because Arab leaders urged them to leave temporarily..." [omitting the words that follow: "until the Jews are "driven into the sea" and the land is cleansed."]"

"And so I guess this completely cancels any possibility that Israel's permanent seizure of lands beyond the 1947 partition boundaries was and is criminal? Israel did contractually commit to those boundaries, right?"

Hey, fucktard, you're pretending you were never told it wasn't and isn't criminal since the Arab league and the local Arabs rejected the partition plan out of hand and the local Arabs immediately mounted violent hostilities, culminating in their joining forces with the genocidal May 15 invasion into Israel.

Truth Warper asshole:
"This was just the first of many times you have used war as a pretext to grab as much land as you could and then used any conceit available (e.g. the 1967 cease-fire) to recalibrate the "legal reality" SO THAT YOU COULD DO THIS SAME THING AGAIN, and then shift the "reality" some more and do it AGAIN until you had everything you wanted, which was ALL OF IT,"

"All of it"? That would be also Jordan.
Many wars? We have about 6 wars. That's many? It is to jerks like you.
Israel didn't launch the 1956 "Sinai campaign" in order to grab the Sinai peninsula to begin with.
Israel didn't preemptively open the 1967 Six Day war in order to grab the Sinai, the Golan Hights and the disputed territories in the first place. The 1973 Yom Kippur war took the Israeli govt. by surprise and Israel didn't end up gaining territory then,
Israel didn't invade Lebanon in 1982 in order to steal Lebanese territory.
You're such a goddamn lying shmuck.
So your arguments falls flat. It's your blind rabid hatred that compels you to keep on typing, not any sort of intellect you may have behind all that fervid Nazi-like hatred.

Truth Warper farts out:
"...and they had nothing but their refugee hells in the neighboring countries and Gaza, where even there you have assaulted them mercilessly."

This kind of tear jerking won't work on me. You're omitting that the Arab states were the ones that confined the refugees to those camps and kept refusing to help them rehabilitate their lives. What's more, some Palestinians continually launched terrorist attacks from those areas against Israel and the IDF conducted reprisals. But what was I thinking?? You expect a Jewish state not to defend itself from terroristic attacks! That's in line with the natural order of things to you!

Truth Warper farts out:
"The brutal criminality of this entire very deliberate program is obvious to any decent soul -- which of course leaves YOU in the dark -- and blah blah blah blah"

This "deliberate program" is the figment of Arab propaganda which you eagerly sucked up, nothing more.
 

Do you guys the newspapers?

Arafat is dead. The biggest road block to peace is gone. The PA had a reasonably fair election. Abbas was elected. Abbas and Sharon have just agreed to a cease-fire.

Even while Hamas mounts daily multiple rocket attacks, makes jubilant announcements of longer range rockets, plants roadside bombs, carries out drive-by shootings and RPG and hand-grenade attacks, smuggles more weapons, and launches 4 thwarted suicide attacks in which the terrorists recruit 15-year olds.

Meanwhile, Khaled Masha'al (Hamas) and Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah (Hezbollah) declare after their Beirut terror summit that they will continue attacks against Israel despite Abbas' call for calm.

Sharon has met with Abbas, discussed re-opening Gaza crossings, has scheduled 2nd tier meetings with PA representatives, has issued orders to IDF to practice potentially lethal restraint by holding fire until fired upon, agreed to free c. 900 terrorist prisoners, agreed to withdraw from 5 cities in the West Bank; and as the Qassams are falling, he has also declared that he will overlook "terror infractions" if Abbas makes a serious effort to stop Palestinian terrorism.

Israel has seriously committed to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Palestinian people are sick to death of the war. You guys are in here, still trying to compare the Israelis to the Nazis while maybe, just maybe, peace is breaking out in spite of the best efforts by the peace movement to stop it.
 

Oh no, Becky and CT! Your lifeboat is GOING DOWN!!!

"the GENIUSES of IMC are not above letting a shmuck like you say any filthy, foul, or unsupported attack you want to say---as long as its directed at me."

Maybe they think you're vile, and maybe they're right. After all, your position on Iman al-Hams all by itself conclusively establishes this. Sure, YOU refuse to see it, but that's exactly what proves your mind is a writhing maggot-filled festering pustule on human society.

Also, as I've tried in vain to point out to your rabid co-maniac baby-killer buddy who harasses this site from the bigot lair of Israel, this site is a forum created by anti-racists, anti-capitalists, and anti-imperialists, i.e. anti-vile-assholes-like-you-two. They did this to create an online gathering space for people who share their perspective. Here such people can affirm and develop each other's understanding of critical subjects, such as the undeniable racist and imperial nature of Israel's very existence, and the destabilizing effect this has on the entire world. The fostering of such discussions and such communities is the entire raison d'etre of this IMC, as it supposedly is for all of them. I applaud the good folks at Santa Cruz IMC for remaining cognizant of its founding principles as they relate to Israel; so many other IMCs, e.g. New York City, have totally caved to the zionist thought police (New York is, after all, da Woild Capital of Kawruption, as it proves even when attempting idealism).

You don't really belong to this community, you just pretend to for blatantly manipulative reasons, and it's your own completely inept pretenses that make this clear. You're just not very good at being deceitful, and in all fairness this is among your finer qualities -- now if you could just stop deceiving YOURSELF. If you did that, you might comprehend something very obvious: that anyone who comes to a site like this and takes the positions you have is naturally going to be met with stony hostility. Your position is not FOR racial equality or social justice or human rights, it is in fact ANTI all of those things, despite everything you claim and imagine, and the people here, bless their hearts, give you no less hostility than you deserve. If they were not more fair-minded than you give them credit for, none of your posts would stay up at all.

"I feel confident of this because I have studied enough cases..."

No Becky, you "feel confident of this" because your perceptions are rigidly locked into a fixed pattern going in: Israelis = tragic heroes, Palestinians = vile villains who deserve everything they get, even when they're unarmed children who get full machine-gun clips emptied point blank into their helpless dying bodies. This rigid perspective of yours on all matters Israeli/Palestinian is more extreme than even that of the IDF comrades of the guy who maliciously did this to Iman al-Hams. Unlike you, they thought his behavior was absolutely repulsive, which is why they reported him.
"We couldn't believe what he had done. Our hearts ached for her. Just a 13-year-old girl," one soldier said. “How do you spray a girl from close range??

Another author ( lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/intolerance/ ) has your bullshit pegged without even seeing it:
"Of course, there was no evidence whatsoever that Iman was actually carrying a bomb either. But just the claim that she might have been is justification to kill her. That’s the great thing about a concerted campaign to dehumanize your enemy – it removes the need for troublesome things like evidence. Once you’ve drummed it into people’s heads that “our? side is always moral and good and upright, and “their? side is inherently wicked and evil and not quite human like us, you don’t need evidence any more. It allows soldiers to kill, and allows the rest of us to rationalize that killing, based solely on our manufactured prejudices and happily unencumbered by facts."

"Can you find ONE kid, with a name, a date, a city, or some other details so we can examine the specifics of your alleged charge?"

I have no idea why I should entertain this request, since you will only treat this as an opportunity to launch more of your weird rhetorical "analyses" in your grotesque need to "disprove" each case. I see now that you have already enjoyed a triumph of sorts in your discussion of Iman al-Hams: you have managed to slip past us the utterly obscene premise that such a plainly deliberate psychotically vicious murder of an unarmed 13-year-old can ever under any circumstances be termed "justifiable." I never should have played along by discussing details, like your asinine map. Simply by doing this, I elevated this premise to legitimacy. Congratulations.

I will not make this mistake again.

That said, there are other incidents that establish Israel's criminality in regard to killing children. There is of course the unforgettable case of Muhammed al-Durrah. Everyone should remember the sickening video of this incident, which documented incontrovertibly that Muhammed and his father were unarmed, and that both were very deliberately killed. "Crossfire," my ass -- there is absolutely no justifying this. You will of course now hurl into your usual caterwauling to the contrary, but this will recieve no acknowledgement from me. Merely by causing you to display once again your absolute lack of moral grace, I will have won.

Others have documented other patterns, equally indefensible. This is an excerpt from
www.counterpunch.org/barghouti10252004.html :

The veteran American journalist Chris Hedges ... documenting how Israeli troops systematically cursed and otherwise provoked Palestinian children playing in the dunes of southern Gaza in order to shoot them. He wrote in Harper's Magazine:

"The boys -- most no more than ten or eleven years old -- dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. ... A percussion grenade explodes. The boys ... scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.

"Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight ..., six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve.... Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered -- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."
Chris Hedges, A Gaza Diary, Harper's Magazine, October 2001

Other than the direct approach to killing Palestinian children, Gideon Levy also reports on another form of slow death: the medieval-like siege. When a 10-year-old girl from El-Sawiya village near Nablus experienced severe abdominal pains, her father tried to take her to the nearest hospital in Nablus; the merciless Israeli siege, however, blocked all possible routes out of the village. In the morning Ella died from a burst appendix, which could have been easily treated at any hospital.
(Gideon Levy, Ha,aretz, January 7, 2001)

"I agree that prior to 1947, the land then called Palestine was under the control of the British. I also agree that prior to the British it was under Ottoman control. Why do you say I deny these facts when I never have?"

It's not that you deny them, dim bulb, it's that you omit them from consideration entirely, which is what I charged you with. This is a symptom of your fanatic comprehension of Israel, which seems to deny that it has ever historically deviated from being the ancient and holy property of the Jews. This is the first time you have ever acknowledged this context in these discussions.

As for your previous points, JA already blasted these straight into hell.

"SOME POPULATION STATISTICS: puke scream babble wank"

So you acknowledge that there were hundreds of thousands of Arabic-speakers living here before Jews began their conquest, but then when this conquest starts -- POOF! -- magically these people and/or their descendants all cease to exist, so that when Israel overruns their lands, now all the people displaced are merely "immigrants from Jordan," etc. Wow, like COSMIC, dude!

Also, all this talk of the area being 'underutilized,' and implying this justifies stealing all of it -- this is just classic bigot "manifest destiny" logic. The Nazis thought this way, too. Their word for it was 'lebensraum.'

www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/hitler_lebensraum_01.shtml

This to Bigot Trash Thinker:
How does six wars over the course of 56 years not qualify as 'many?' I mean in the reality inhabited by sane people? Oh, just forget it -- how would you know?
Yes, Israel definitely DID preemptively open the 1967 Six Day War, and I can't wait for you to challenge me on this.

"This kind of tear jerking won't work on me."

Oh my God, I am just floored by this. And here I thought you were so compassionate -- HAR!!

"You're omitting that the Arab states were the ones that confined the refugees to those camps and kept refusing to help them rehabilitate their lives."

Which no doubt means, by your deranged "logic," that it's all their fault, right? I mean, being displaced in the first place naturally has absolutely nothing to do with it. Silly me, what was I thinking?

"You expect a Jewish state not to defend itself from terroristic attacks!"

When such action is a reply to brutal invasion, occupation, and mass expulsion, it's not "terrorist attacks," it's armed resistance. Like most useages of the 'terrorist' label these days, this one merely illustrates the zionist genius for reframing public understanding with manipulative demonizing word games. They really are the world's grand masters of this type of propaganda. That's why America is now emulating them by using the exact same word game to villify the Iraqi resistance. What an inspiration you are! Like the palis, the Iraqis also have a perfectly legitimate right to resist a blatantly criminal invasion through any means at hand. Also, back during our nearly identical conquest of Vietnam -- i.e., before this term had been twisted to fit this particular brazenly manipulative purpose -- people who did this sort of thing were called 'guerrillas,' which is already quite manipulative. What they really are is revolutionaries, identical in every way to those of the American revolution. They too were 'terrorists' and 'guerrillas.' Honest historians have no trouble acknowledging this about them.
 

No, Becky, it's not the 'peace movement' that will wreck this peace

It's the zionists who will do that, so they can maintain the pretexts for aggression long enough to liquidate the last Palestinian enclaves in the West Bank. Mark my words.
 

I'm devestated by your brilliant refutation (not)

You get too much of a rush from the hatred you spew to stop spewing it and work your way out of your self-imposed narrowmindedness and bigotry. Real thinking will always be remarkably dreadful to you, not to mention it would compel you to jettison many of your bigoted and racist misconceptions and force you to form a much more balanced perspective, which in turn would compel you to struggle mightily to quell the Israel bashing habit that guarantees you such instant and bountiful emotional reward. That's why you'll do all in your power to avoid rational thinking and therefore, rational writing about these topics.


BTW, isn't it ironic I've often been accused by some of your ideological kin of being racist against the Palestinians for resorting to the short form "Palis", only to come here and see a rabid lying hatemongering pro-Palestinian antisemite like you do the same and get a free pass from your fellow bigoted pricks.
 

Not a single case of proof yet!!

"There is of course the unforgettable case of Muhammed al-Durrah. Everyone should remember the sickening video of this incident, which documented incontrovertibly that Muhammed and his father were unarmed, and that both were very deliberately killed."

First, the FATHER was not killed. Second, where is the body of Mohammed Al-Durra?"

Third, the IDF investigation concluded that the angle was such that it COULD NOT HAVE BEEN an Israeli bullet that killed him, if he indeed WAS killed, which is not known for sure.
see: www.gamla.org.il/english/war/dura2.htm

for only one account of why this was yet another media hoax.

YOUR 2nd "Example" is from the Chris Hedges article called "A Gaza Diary".

Hedges writes "There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."

First: M16's dont have silencers
Second: What Hedges mistook for silencers were actually the special kind of guns the IDF used to shoot RUBBER bullets.
Third: Even in the article, Hedges doesn't see the IDF shoot and injure or kill anyone.
Fourth: He says "Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."

NOTE: He didn't see the bullets hitting and hurting and hospitalizing anyone while he was standing there, an eyewitness. All he saw was the IDF shooting rubber bullets at the kids. In the hospital there are injured children, but there is no way to document HOW they were injured.

Were they shot while throwing a molotov cocktail?
Were they shot in the crossfire between Palestinian gunmen and IDF troops? This is NO PROOF whatsoever and may even be another example of an attempt to defame the Israelis without the necessary proof.

AGAIN---M16'S DON'T HAVE SILENCERS!! LOOK IT UP YOURSELF!! THE AUTHOR LIED TO YOU.
 

Jewish conquest? Israel was set up by UN resolution

And the only "conquest" of any major territorial gains was in 1967 right after Israel faced 5 Arab armies assembling on their borders to attack them in yet another attempt at their complete annihilation. Hence, if the Arabs had only recognized the right of Israel to exist, no conquest of territory would have happened.

You have a knee-jerk reaction to blame Israel no matter what.
 

Haim Levin

Becky, do you simply ignore direct questions? Days ago I posted the below comments... I'm waiting for your reply....

Becky, why don't you tell them all about Haim Levin? You remember him, right? The ultra-right mossad agent, who tried to infiltrate Santa Cruz Earth First! and alot of other activist groups, circa 2000. You know, the guy who *ripped you off* for, remind me, was it $3,000?
 

AGAIN!!: non-CT's doin' a lot of **YAPPIN**, but I don't see no *CITATIONS*!!

First non-CT claimed that: "Benny Morris counts **ONLY** 700,000 "Palestinian" refugees in 1947/1948."

HAVING GONE DOWN IN A CONFLAGRATION OF UTTER IGNOMINIOUS FLAMES(!!!), then, FLAILINGLY, he tries to DESPERATELY come back with:

non-CT: "JA quoted from the book's first edition published in 1987. I was relying on the *second*, revised edition published a year ago called The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited. Moral of JA's the story: always take his "scoops" with a huge grain of salt."

YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YADA, YADA, YADA...

I DON'T SEE NO CITATIONS FROM YOU! JUST MORE **YYYAPPIN'**!!

I PROVIDED *CITATIONS*!!


non-CT: "Note that you didn't refute my claims that majority of the 700,000 refuges were NOT uprooted by Zionist/Israeli forces. Many of them, in fact, left because Arab leaders urged them to leave temporarily until the Jews are "driven into the sea" and the land is cleansed."


"THE BIRTH OF THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEE PROBLEM, 1947-1949" - by Benny Morris (Israeli historian)


BENNY MORRIS: "JEWISH ***ATTACK*** directly and indirectly triggered **MOST** of the Arab exodus up to June 1948" (p.287-288)

"AS TO April [1948] and THE START OF THE *MAIN* EXODUS, I HAVE FOUND *NO* EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THE AHC [*ARAB* Higher Committee] ISSUED BLANKET INSTRUCTIONS, BY RADIO OR OTHERWISE, TO PALESTINE'S ARABS TO FLEE." (p. 290)


YO NON-CT...!! I JUST *WHHOOPED* YO ASS LIKE YOR DADDY!!

NOW, *WHO'S* YOR *DADDY*!!

***BEEYATCH!!!*** ...


HA-HA-HA!!
 

You got *that* right!

Bullshit Becky: "Can you find ONE kid, with a name, a date, a city, or some other details so we can examine the specifics of your alleged charge?"

>I have no idea why I should entertain this request,
>since you will only treat this as an opportunity to launch
>more of your weird rhetorical "analyses" in your grotesque need to "disprove" each case.


Bullshit Becky: "Third, the IDF investigation concluded that the angle was such that it COULD NOT HAVE BEEN an Israeli bullet that killed him, if he indeed WAS killed, which is not known for sure."

And then Bullshit Becky takes us to -- GUESS *WHAT*!!: A *ZIONIST* PROPAGANDA WEBSITE!

"see: www.gamla.org.il/english/war/dura2.htm%22
 

WHY HAVEN'T YOU ANSWERED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR CLAIM THAT ISRAEL WAS *ATTACKED* IN 1956 BY ALL THOSE AYE-RAB COUNTRIES!???

CUT-&-PASTE:

Becky [rhetorical question asserting that Israel was attacked by those vicious Palestinians]: "WHAT WAS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE 1956 WAR _AGAINST_ ISRAEL?"

beckyjohnsonis_really_fullofshit: "Why don't you just google "the 1956 suez crisis" or "the 1956 suez war" with any other appropriate key words and report back to us about _who_ _actually_ started the war and what u.s. president eisenhower did about it?"

YOU'VE BEEN *AVOIDING* THAT QUESTION LIKE THE PLAGUE!!

WHAT'S UP!!???

YOU CLAIMED THAT BARBARA LIED ABOUT A CHILD.

BUT YOU LIED ABOUT A *WAR*!!

-
 

I dunno. Try Encyclopedia Britannica

I am not an expert on the 1956 war. It is my general understanding that Israel had to yet again, defend itself against Arab agression, but I leave the answer to your much more specific question to people more knowledgable than myself.

As for other, more personal questions, I feel no obligation to share that kind of information with the fine readers of Indymedia.
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

so, you don't deny that Haim Levin is a mossad agent, that you brought into the SC progressive community. says alot about **YOU**
 

Why would the Mossad bother with Santa Cruz?

You have an over-rated estimation of your own importance. The only mossad agents in Santa Cruz, are the ones who come here when they are on vacation.

As for Rabbi Levin, he was most certainly a promoter of the Jewish State of Israel. Mossad agent???? WHY???
 

Uh-oh, it's really swamped now!

Becky screams: "M16'S DON'T HAVE SILENCERS!! LOOK IT UP YOURSELF!! THE AUTHOR LIED TO YOU."

By this ridiculous statement we discover that Becky is as deeply ignorant of guns as she is of so many other things. A silencer is an "after-market" item, i.e. is not original equipment but is retrofitted to the gun after delivery. Several manufacturers DO make silencers for M16s, as they do for virtually any gun in existence. Here's one right here:

www.impactguns.com/store/knights_m4qd_silencer.html

Here's a write-up on another in a gun-nut magazine (this one's clearly been around for a long time):

www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/hel556.pdf

Furthermore, if a hardcore gun-nut / professional killer / soldier can't get a manufactured silencer for a gun, they often just make one. This is an esteemed gun-nut tradition. Therefore Becky's assertion is patently idiotic. As for whether or not a given military unit has them, this could only be verified by observing them. If corpses are coming in from border sites, however, riddled with M-16 wounds (which are VERY distinctive) and yet nobody in the vicinity ever hears gunfire, silencers are a pretty safe conjecture. guns are LOUD. No really, Becky, trust me on this.

I could rip the rest of your inane maunderings apart, but really, what's the use? Your denial is of psychotic proportions. I think you could stand in the presence of IDF soldiers as they pureed a playground of toddlers with mounted 50-caliber machine guns. Then when they finished, you'd snivel "my God, that was so horrible, but I know you had to do it. I definitely heard one of them use an Arabic word -- they were all terrorists!"

Becky shits forth: "And the only "conquest" of any major territorial gains was in 1967 right after Israel faced 5 Arab armies assembling on their borders to attack them in yet another attempt at their complete annihilation. Hence, if the Arabs had only recognized the right of Israel to exist, no conquest of territory would have happened."

First of all, this omits the "major territorial gains" of the 1948 war and also the present conquest, through which Israel, albeit very weakly opposed, is relentlessly penetrating and fragmenting the West Bank with settlements, Israeli-only roads, and this goddamn wall.

Secondly, your version of the '67 war is a characteristic zionist fantasy of perpetual victimhood. On pages 185 thru 239 of Body of Secrets, his massively referenced history of the National Security Agency, author James Bamford talks about the REAL Six Day War.

-the confrontation began building in May, with armored standoffs on the Sinai and Syrian (Golan Heights) borders. Rather than pursue peace, Israel initiated war, launching a surprise attack on Egypt, Syria and Jordan at 7:45 AM 6/5/1967. Menachem Begin, of all people, acknowledged this in 1982: "We had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

- Israel's object right from the start was to grab as much of the Sinai, Golan Heights, and Jordanian-held Jerusalem as possible.

- Their attacks on all three countries were "pre-emptive" and absolutely ruthless. Virtually every plane the other three had was destroyed on the ground in the first hour or so, before it could be scrambled, which made the Israelis unstoppable. Their armored divisions literally rolled over the Egyptians in the Sinai, killing 7,000 to 10,000 Egyptian soldiers by one general's estimate, while suffering only 275 deaths themselves. They didn't bother taking prisoners. There were many Egyptians briefly captured, however. Disarmed and helpless, most of these were machine-gunned and buried en masse, having not once set foot beyond their own nation's borders. Israeli military historian Aryeh Yitzhaki places the death toll of these war crimes at around 1,000, with 400 occuring in just one Sinai town, El Arish.

- Israel also attacked UN facilities and personnel throughout the area, incuding Gaza, where the UN headquarters was hit with 6 tank rounds. 14 UN personnel were killed altogether. This was just one of many installments in Israel's perpetual surreptitious war against the UN, which continues today.

- To con Washington into facing down any Soviet response, Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban lied through his teeth to U.S. Ambassador Walworth Barbour about the nature of the attack, portraying Israel in the same way you do: as a beleaguered innocent waif struggling to defend itself against Big Mean Bullies. Waa.

- meanwhile the Israelis attacked and tried to sink a minimally armed U.S. spy ship -- the USS Liberty -- which was parked in the Mediterranean about 13 miles off the Sinai coast. The Israelis have never admitted to this attack, far less offered apology or explanation. Bamford's well-substantiated guess is they were concerned this electronic surveillance vessel might have recorded evidence of the massacre of Egyptians by Israeli units. if so, they needn't have worried: their loyal servants at the Pentagon would surely have shoved this in a vault in some basement somewhere, never to see the light of day again.

Bamford goes on to say (p. 203):
"The extensive war crimes were just one of the deep secrets Israel sought to conceal since the start of the conflict. From the very beginning, an essential element in the Israeli battle plan seemed to have been to hide much of the war behind a carefully constructed curtain of lies. Lies about the Egyptian threat, lies about who started the war, lies to the American president, lies to the UN Security Council, lies to the press, lies to the public. Thus, as the American naval historian Dr. Richard K. Smith noted in an article on the Liberty for United States Naval Institute Proceedings, "any instrument which sought to penetrate this smoke screen so carefully thrown around the normal 'fog of war' would have to be frustrated."

The USS Liberty was exactly such an instrument.

Becky mewls "I am not an expert on the 1956 war."

Good work, JA -- you nailed her. This is the sound of Becky's bullshit dropping dead.

Trivial Shit-brain's contribution: "I'm devestated by your brilliant refutation"

Yeah, obviously, since your "rebuttal" was nothing more than a limp, lame character attack
 

Becky: "I dunno. I am not an expert on the 1956 war." SO WERE YOU *LYING*!!???

YOU *DUNNNO-0*...!!?? WELL, THEN, BECKYO, IF YOU DUNNNO-O KNOW *ANYTHING* ABOUT THE 1956 WAR, WERE **YOU** _LYING_ ABOUT A **WAR**!???

(Versus your claim that Barbara Lubin was lying about a child.)

WHY DON'T **YOU** -- SINCE **YOU** MADE THE CLAIM -- SUPPORT IT WITH SOME ARTICLE FROM 'YOUR' ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA?

OR YOU CAN DO THIS:

beckyjohnsonis_really_fullofshit: "Why don't you just google "the 1956 suez crisis" or "the 1956 suez war" with any other appropriate key words and report back to us about _who_ _actually_ started the war and what u.s. president eisenhower did about it?"

ARE YOU READY TO DO THE LOOK-UPS AND ANSWER THE QUESTION???

OR, DESPITE THE EASILY AVAILABE FACTS, IS YOUR MIND ALREADY MADE UP!!?...
 

BECKY! *WHAT'S* THE BIG SECRET!!???

BECKY: "As for other, more personal questions, I feel no obligation to share that kind of information with the fine readers of Indymedia."

WELL, YOU *TOLD* US ABOUT ALL YOUR MISGUIDED ANTI-ZIONIST (OR "GLACIALLY SLOW") "DEAR JEWISH FRIENDS" IN SANTA CRUZ.

CAN'T YOU TELL US WHETHER YOU ARE AGGRESSIVELY AND CRUSADINGLY 'MORE ULTRA-ZIONIST JEWISH' THAN MOST JEWS (INCLUDING SOME *ISRAELIS* THAT I KNOW) BECAUSE YOU DO/DID HAVE A ZIONIST JEWISH HUSBAND/BOYFRIEND/RELATIVE/INLAW?

WAS YOUR JEWISH HUSBAND/BOYFRIEND/RELATIVE/INLAW NOT PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE???

WERE YOU *HIDING* HIM/HER???

WAS IT A *SECRET*???

ARE/WERE YOU **EMBARRASSED** TO HAVE A JEWISH HUSBAND/BOYFRIEND/RELATIVE/INLAW???
 

'Land greedy' Israel gave BACK 94% of the conquered lands

I HOPE writes: "First of all, this omits the "major territorial gains" of the 1948 war and also the present conquest, through which Israel, albeit very weakly opposed, is relentlessly penetrating and fragmenting the West Bank with settlements, Israeli-only roads, and this goddamn wall."

Yes, Israel increased its territory in the 1948 war. Prior to that, Israel had been in three, noncontiguous sections---like your kind are crying about because Gaza and the West Bank are not contiguous. Apparently back then, the UN didn't care whether the little bit of Palestine allotted the Jews (about 15%) was in one chunk, three chunks, or even defensible. Israel took additional territory to create a defenseable state. Do you deny the Arab armies massed to attack Israel when it was one day old?

The major territorial gains occurred after the 1967 war. Yes, Israel did pre-emptively strike the Arab airforce, but an attack on Israel was imminent with 100,000 Egyptian troops massing on its borders and the rallying cries to destroy the Jewish State were ringing out throughout the Egyptian press. Are you forgetting to mention that Israel has already returned 94% of those conquered lands?

You are so intent on proving that Israel is expansionist, that you don't want your readers to know that Israel has given back all land outside of the borders of Ancient Israel.

As for the 1956 war, you would prefer I expound on the merits and subtle causes whether I feel I am knowledgable or not? Why condemn me for this? And if YOU are such an expert, why don't you wow us with your superior knowledge?

The "Wall" as you put it is a fence for 95% of its length. The areas where it is a wall are designed that way to stop the Palestinian snipers who like to shoot at Israelis as they wait for buses and walk to school and work.

The "Israeli-only" roads were designed because the Palestinians throw rocks at cars with Israeli license plates. Any Palestinian can use the roads if they get a permit to do so. A background check is done to make sure they aren't a wanted terrorist, then they are issued a permit. Palestinian cab drivers use the Israeli roads all the time---something NEVER mentioned by you for some reason.

There have been Jewish towns on the West Bank for centuries--but you guys like to characterize them as 'settlements' implying they are recent, impermanent, and filled with outsiders. Jewish towns are on only 1.7% of the West Bank, so I don't know what you are griping about. Do you think the land should be entirely cleansed of Jews? Hmmmmmm. Now THAT sounds more like ethnic cleansing than anything Israel has ever done.

Does Capitola "fragment and penetrate" Santa Cruz County? What is wrong with a Jewish community in Judeah and Samaria, the ancient ancestral home to Jews? There are lots of Arab towns in Israel. They don't fragment or penetrate Israel.

NOTE to JA: You can go suck eggs for all I care!
 

WHAT'S THE MATTER BECKY!? CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTIONS?

"You can go suck eggs for all I care!"

I CAN GO "SUCK EGGS"!? HA-HA! IS *THAT* SOME KIND OF 'NORMAN ROCKWELL' PREPPY INSULT!?

WHAT? DO YOU COME FROM SOME KIND OF "LEAVE IT TO BEAVER" FAMILY?


BULLSHIT BECKY: "As for the 1956 war, you would prefer I expound on the merits and subtle causes whether I feel I am knowledgable or not?"

"...the *SUBLTE* causes"???

TO ALL OF BULLSHIT BECKY'S DEBATORS: I UNDERSTAND, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHY ANYONE WOULD ANY *FURTHER* CONTINUE TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME DEBATING IN DETAIL THAT ZIONOID ENDLESS PROPAGANDA ZOMBIE!!

IF SHE CONTINUES TO JUST REPEAT HERSELF, I WOULD JUST LET HER GO ON AND ON. OTHERWISE, IF SHE POSTS SOMETHING NEW THAT'S REALLY SPECIOUS, I WOULD JUST TAKE ONE MAJOR POINT OF HERS, AS A *MAJOR* DEMONSTRATION POINT, TO DEMOLISH HER AND SHOW THAT SHE'S EITHER MAKING UP SHIT, OR CRITICALLY DOESN'T KNOW WHAT'S SHE'S TALKING ABOUT -- A PRETTY EASY THING TO DO.

THAT'S WHAT I DID WITH HER 1956 WAR CLAIM (WITHIN A STRING OF HER RIDICULOUS CLAIMS) -- AND NOT EVEN NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER WOULD/COULD COME TO HER RESCUE ON THAT ONE!!

IN A COURT OF LAW, IF YOU CAN SHOW THAT SOMEONE IS WRONG ABOUT A *MAJOR* POINT, THAT PRETTY MUCH DISCREDITS THEM WITHOUT HAVING TO SIFT THROUGH EVERY ONE OF THEIR CLAIMS.

BECKY HAS PRETTY MUCH BEEN SOUNDLY DISCREDITED HERE ON SC-IMC. ANYONE WITH A BRAIN CAN SEE THAT.

THE WORD IS OUT NOW IN THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA ABOUT BECKY JOHNSON (MY PRIMARY GOAL) -- AND *THAT'S* THE IMPORTANT THING.

AS FAR AS I WOULD BE CONCERNED, BECKY CAN GO ON BEING AN ULTRA-ZIONIST PROPAGANDA DRONE/SPOUT ON SC-IMC DISCUSSION BOARDS FOREVER.

(AND I *BET* SHE'S GETTING *PAID*, *PERQS*, OR PAYMENT IN KIND, BY THE ZIONIST LOBBY -- LIKE A ZIONIST VERSION OF, OF COURSE TO A LESSER DEGREE, 'ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS'.)

I DOUBT THAT BECKY EVER WAS EVER A TRUE "LEFTIST". I'VE SEEN A FEW MORE CLEVER ZIONISTS USE THAT COVER BEFORE.
 

So what do you have to do to be a leftist?

JA: If you doubt my leftist credentials, why don't you try a google search on me? You will find I have been a writer for Street Spirit since 1996, which is published by the American Friends Service Committee. I also am a member of the Free Radio Santa Cruz Collective which has been broadcasting for 10 years without a fuckin' FCC license and produces a decidedly leftist fare most of the time.

While I occasionally call in with my pro-Israel positions, I don't dominate the airwaves with my ideas. Although, my pen is sharp when it comes to critiques of their programming.

My article, "The Hopscotch Rebellion" was published by CounterPunch, detailing my fight with the city over 1st amendment issues and the use of chalk on a sidewalk. A subsequent Honolulu Star Bulletin editorial supported me.

My activism began in earnest way back during the Vietnam War when I was still in high school. I marched against the Vietnamese war. Years later, I marched with Steve Argue against the Yugoslavian war.

I successfully sued the LAPD for clubbing me at the DNC in LA in 2000.

I have organized protests against police brutality. I wrote the text of the resolution passed by the Santa Cruz City Council calling for a moratorium on the death penalty.

I have also written on behalf of women and children receiving welfare benefits. I organized the "Sex for Peace" event just prior to the Iraqi war. All of this can be found by a google search.

If you STILL want to proclaim that I am a phoney leftist, go ahead. It won't add to your credibility.

I am not a Zionist. Your definition of what a zionist is and my definition are completely different. But by either definition, I am not one. I am a member of DAFKA which has no affiliation with the State of Israel. It is a pro-Israel educational organization and is funded by private donations. Currently I am an unpaid volunteer.

I am aware that my positions on Israel are quite different with most leftists, but I find nothing in them that is internally inconsistant. I do not see Israel as a major perpetrator of war crimes. Far from it. Instead, I see a tiny country resolved to survive against a non-stop onslaught of Arab Islamic rage. I am buoyed by their accomplishments under such duress, and I pray for the day when Arab and Israeli, Muslim and Jew can live in peace side by side.
 

While it is *hard* to apply the word "clever" to Bullshit Becky...(well, 'clever' in her own way)...

-

(See last sentence of my previous comment post:)

I DOUBT THAT BECKY EVER WAS EVER A TRUE "LEFTIST". I'VE **SEEN** A FEW MORE CLEVER ZIONISTS USE THAT COVER BEFORE.

-

And I've seen *REAL* progressive/leftist icons and other public figures not say *anything/much* against Israel, it's racist state ideology, and Palestinian oppression until they were pressed to finally speak up. They didn't before, because they knew the potential cost from Zionist/pro-Israel lobby economic domestic TERRORISTS (as the previously Zionist lobby-deposed African American Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney once experience -- but she handily *won* her Congressional seat back)!

I recently got one nationally prominent leftist to finally start speaking out against Israel's colonial oppression of the Palestinians. AND GEE, *DID* HE!! -- HE ALMOST CAME OUT LIKE MLK AGAINST THE VIETNAM WAR!!: TO THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE FROM THE AUDITORIUM-PACKED AUDIENCE (OF *ALL* COLORS AND FAITHS)!!

-

BULLSHIT BECKY: "I am a member of DAFKA which has no affiliation with the State of Israel."

BECAUSE *THEN* YOU'D HAVE TO REGISTIER IT AS A FOREIGN AGENT OR DIRECT LOBBY OF ISRAEL, A FOREIGN GOVT.

-

BULLSHIT BECKY: "I see a tiny country resolved to survive against a non-stop onslaught of Arab Islamic rage."

HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD THAT NOT ALL ARABS ARE "ISLAMIC"? -- IN YOUR RACIST STEREOTYPING OF "a non-stop onslaught of Arab Islamic rage". MANY ARABS ARE CHRISTIAN, OTHER OR *SECULAR* -- AND THEY ALL MORALLY OPPOSE COLONIALIST RACIST ZIONISM.

AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD OF *ALL* ETHNICITIES, NATIONALITIES, RELIGIONS (OR NOT), STRONGLY AND MORALLY OPPOSE ZIONISM AS A RACIST IDEOLOGY.

*I'M* NEITHER ISLAMIC OR RELIGIOUS: EXPLAIN *MY* "Arab Islamic rage" MORAL OPPOSITION.

-

BULLSHIT BECKY: "My article, "The Hopscotch Rebellion" was published by CounterPunch, detailing my fight with the city over 1st amendment issues and the use of chalk on a sidewalk."

I DON'T CARE ABOUT SOME PRIVILEGED WHITE GIRL AND HER FIGHT WITH THE CITY OVER PLAYING HOPSCOTCH ON THE SIDEWALK -- OR THE LITTLE HUMAN INTEREST FILLER STORY IT GENERATED.

THERE ARE BLACK, BROWN, AND RED PEOPLE FIGHTING OVER MUCH LARGER STAKES THAN *A HOPSCOTCH CHALKING CONVICTION*.

(DID THEY GIVE YA 'THA CHAIR', BECKY?)

-

BULLSHIT BECKY: "I successfully sued the LAPD for clubbing me at the DNC in LA in 2000."

YEAH, I BET YOU GOT BEAT LIKE **RODNEY KING**, DIDN'T YOU!? I DIDN'T CATCH *THAT* VIDEOTAPE OR TRIAL OF YOURS ON NATIONAL (OR EVEN LOCAL) TV! SUED AND GOT MILLIONS ($$$) FOR IT, DID YA!? DID THEY MOVE THE *2ND* TRIAL TO SOUTH CENTRAL!?

-

BULLSHIT BECKY: "I am aware that my positions on Israel are quite different with most leftists, but I find nothing in them that is internally inconsistant."

THE STATE OF ISRAEL IS **ANTI-THETICAL** TO ALL THOSE THINGS YOU, BECKY, **CLAIM** TO STAND FOR.

AND WE CAN **START** WITH THE ISSUE OF THE ISRAEL-MADE **HOMELESSNESS** OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE!!

WE CAN TALK ABOUT *ISRAEL'S* 60+ YEARS WAR AGAINST AN INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT POLICE AND MILITARY BRUTALITY AGAINST PALESTINIAN MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT *SUMMARY* DEATH PENALTIES CARRIED OUT EVERY DAY BY SOLDIERS IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL. WHERE'S YOUR "MORATORIUM' ON *THAT*!?

THEN WE CAN GO ON TO HOW ISRAEL HAS AFFECTED *MILLIONS* OF *PALESTINIAN* WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND THEIR WELFARE.

AND "SEX" IS *EXACTLY* WHAT ISRAELIS ARE RACISTLY WORRIED ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO "TOO MANY PALESTINIANS" AND "THE DEMOGRAPHIC BOMB".

MAYBE YOU CAN GO ORGANIZE A "SEX FOR PEACE" PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT IN ISRAEL-PALESTINE AS A FORM OF NON-VIOLENT PROTEST AGAINST ISRAEL'S COLONIZATION!

-

BULLSHIT BECKY: "I am not a Zionist."

WELL, YOU POINTEDLY MENTIONED ALL YOUR "DEAR [ANTI-ZIONIST OR GLACIALLY SLOW] JEWISH FRIENDS", BUT YOU'RE STILL HOLDING OUT ON YOUR *SECRET* CURRENT/FORMER ZIONIST JEWISH HUSBAND/BOYFRIEND/RELATIVE.

HOWEVER, ANYONE WHO IS A MEMBER OF A *ZIONIST* ORGANIZATION IS A *ZIONIST*/*PRO-ZIONIST*, A DISTINCTION WITHOUT A DIFFERENCE.

-

BECKY, I'M *NOT* IMPRESSED: YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY A PHONY AND INTELLECTUALLY **SHALLOW** **POSER** 'LEFTIST'.

I'VE SEEN 'EM BEFORE.

-
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

Becky Johnson falsely claims membership in the Free Radio Santa Cruz collective in order to give her credibility w/ the "left." While its true, at times in the past she has housed the transmitter and studio, she does not participate in the FRSC collective decision making meetings, nor is she welcome to.
 

My phone records were subpoened by the FCC too!

Collective member is mistaken. I am a member of the FRSC collective and have been since 1997 when I began to produce Bathrobespierre's Broadsides: civil rights for the poor. My show, hosted by Robert Norse, airs twice a week.

In addition, I have twice housed the transmitter and had the studio on my property for a year and a half. The FCC has subpoened my phone records because of my involvement with FRSC.

It is true that I only occasionally go to FRSC meetings--the last one I attended was right after the FCC raid on Sept. 29th. But I was not excluded then nor do I expect to be now. "Collective member" is engaged in wishful thinking.

While I have different opinions on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict from most FRSC members, that is hardly a criteria for membership.
 

Keep DREAMING, Becky

(almost) Anyone who reads and participates in Santa Cruz Indymedia knows that Becky Johnson is full of shit, most of the time. She tries to 'save face' by publishing articles about homelessness in Santa Cruz, but we all know she really is full of shit.

Becky, get a life! You are NOT a member of the Free Radio Santa Cruz collective! You can try to full people, but again, we know you are fool of shit. Being friends with Robert Norse does not mean you are part of the collective. You, Robert, HUFF and DAFKA can believe what you want.

There is no 'grey area' here. It is plain and simple. You are not a member of the FRSC collective.

If anyone needs a clarification about this, feel free to email frsc (at) freakradio.org

Or, check the schedule. Becky is not on it.
www.freakradio.org/schedule.html
 

Au Contrere mon frere

I must say you are sadly misinformed. I have been a member of the Free Radio Santa Cruz collective since 1997 when I started to produce "Bathrobespierre's Broadsides: Civil Rights for the Poor" which airs on THURSDAY's from 6PM to 8PM and SUNDAYS from 9:30AM to 1PM on www.freakradio.org and on 101.1 FM on your radio dial.

Robert Norse hosts the show. I am more of a behind-the-scenes producer than the talking head. You can listen to any of our archived shows at www.huffsantacruz.org.

The last FRSC meeting I attended was in October of 2004. Dues are paid by each programmer and Bathrobespierre's Broadsides is current with our dues as well. Like it or not, I have been a member for a long time. I suppose the collective could vote me out and ban me from the studio in the future. You are welcome to make such a motion to that effect at the next meeting, comrade.

As for my "face-saving" published articles on homeless issues, are you saying I only published 300 plus articles in the past 9 years JUST to cover up my Zionist connections?

You're as sharp as bowling ball.
 

BECKY, WE DON'T CARE *WHAT* ANOMALOUS TWISTED FLAVOR OF 'LEFTIST' KOOK YOU ARE!!

BULLSHIT BECKY: "As for my "face-saving" published articles on homeless issues, are you saying I only published 300 plus articles in the past 9 years JUST to cover up my Zionist connections?"

BECKY, YOU'RE *NOT* THE ONLY CRITICALLY, TRAGICALLY, AND FATALLY FLAWED "PROGRESSIVE/LEFTIST" -- OR PERSON OF *ANY* KIND -- THAT HAS EVER EXISTED.

WHAT ABOUT THAT FAMOUS '60'S "LEFTIST" ACTIVIST -- IRA EINHORN?

EINHORN HABITUALLY BEAT HIS GIRLFRIEND -- EVEN AFTER GIVING ROUSING "LEFTIST" POLITICAL SPEECHES.

HE FINALLY BLUDGEONED HER TO DEATH IN HIS MISOGYNIST CONTROLLING RAGE, STUFFED HER IN A TRUNK AND LEFT HER TO ROT.

(HE ONCE EVEN ASKED TWO OTHER *WOMEN* TO HELP HIM MOVE THE TRUNK, TELLING THEM IT WAS FILLED WITH OLD STUFF. THE WOMEN JUST HAPPENED TO DECLINE.)

EINHORN FLED, UNDER AN ASSUMED NAME, TO AND ACROSS EUROPE AND, FINALLY, TO FRANCE TO LIVE A LIFE OF COMFORT FOR TWO DECADES

--UNTIL HE WAS FINALLY TRACKED DOWN AND EXTRADICTED AFTER A PROTRACTED PROCESS.

AT ONE TIME HE WAS CONSIDERED A DARLING OF THE LEFT.

WAS HE A TRUE "LEFTIST"? WAS HE "COOL"?

ARE *TRUE* "LEFTISTS" MURDEROUS MISOGYNISTS?

I BET THAT HE COULD HAVE POINTED TO A LIST OF "LEFTIST CREDENTIALS" -- AND *MANY MORE* ARTICLES THAN YOU -- TO COVER HIS TWISTED EGO AND MISOGYNIST TRACKS.

AND OF ALL THINGS, HE REGARDED *HIMSELF* AND WAS REGARDED AS **"A CHAMPION OF HUMAN RIGHTS"**!!


SEE: "COUNTERCULTURE KILLER"

www.crimelibrary.com/classics/einhorn/

(THERE'S EVEN A PHOTO OF HIM THERE WITH ABBIE HOFFMAN.)

SEE: "IRA'S TOUR DE FRANCE: HOW IRA EINHORN HIJACKED THE FRENCH CONSCIENCE"

FOR MORE ARTICLES GOOGLE: "IRA EINHORN".


NOW, YOU BECKY HAVE NOT COMMITED MURDER -- BUT THEN YOUR 'ACHIEVEMENTS' ARE NOT NEARLY AS 'GREAT' AS EINHORN'S.

YOU JUST CHAMPION THE SEMIGENOCIDAL *MURDER* OF A CONSCIOUSLY **PLANNED**, IDEOLOGICALLY RACIST STATE -- ISRAEL:

A STATE THAT METHODICALLY MASSACRES PEOPLE WHO WON'T GET OUT OF THE WAY, BE MASS DISPLACED BY THE MILLIONS, AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE -- JUST BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT JEWISH.

AS (anti-zionist) ALEXANDER COCKBURN -- CO-EDITOR OF "COUNTERPUNCH" -- HAS SAID, "WHERE ONE STANDS ON (ANTI-)ZIONISM IS THE LITMUS TEST OF THE LEFT TODAY."

(SEARCH: CounterPunch.org for articles critical of Zionism/Israel ;
SEE book: "The Politics of Anti-Semitism" by Alexander Cockburn
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1902593774/qid=1108559732/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-9723602-3458457 )


*TRUE* LEFTISTS DON'T SUPPORT GENOCIDE, SLAVERY, "JIM CROW", NAZISM, APARTHEID, OR ZIONISM.

IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
 

SO, BECKYO...: PARALLELS BETWEEN BECKY JOHNSON AND IRA EINHORN

-

IRA EINHORN WAS A COUNTERCULTURE "HUMAN RIGHTS CHAMPION" -- A MISOGYNIST WHO REGULARLY BEAT AND BRUTALLY MURDERED HIS GIRLFRIEND.

AND YOU'RE A COUNTERCULTURE "HOMELESSNESS RIGHTS CHAMPION" -- A RACIST WHO SUPPORTS ZIONISM'S/ISRAEL'S SEMI-GENOCIDAL MURDERS AND BRUTALLY FORCED HOMELESSNESS OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.


THE PARALLELS ARE *IRONIC*, HUH?

-
 

There's one thing wrong with your analogy...

...and that's that I didn't beat, rape, and murder my girlfriend/boyfriend. Or commit any other crime other than hopscotching.

I suppose you could say Adolf Hitler was nice to his dog, so he wasn't totally bad. But to me, he was totally bad.

You on the other hand want me tarred and feathered for merely holding a counter-opinion to yours. An opinion I am willing to back up with facts, logic, and history.

You launch into a rants in capital letters where you present such wisdom as equating Apartheid, genocide, slavery, Nazism, Jim Crow with Zionism.

Heres a lesson for you, Joseph:

Apartheid_- a racist state based on law in which the minority rules over the majority

Genocide -- murdering an entire race of people

Slavery -- where laws exist which allow some people to be the property of other people

Jim Crow --- a series of racist laws in the rural south which forbade blacks to use facilities for whites.

Nazism-- Where a super-Aryan race expands thru military force to dominate its neighbors and commit genocide on its minorities

Zionism-- a movement in the late 1880's thru the late 1940's to establish a homeland for the Jewish people in the region of their ancestral home, and where a substantial Jewish population still resided, and where the United Nations voted to allow them to be.

So how does your scale compare to the situation in Sudan right now? Genocide? check!! Apartheid? check!! Slavery? check!! Jim Crow? check!! Nazism? close enough! check!!

Oh wait! Thats Arab on Arab violence! I understand you have no interest in this subject, Joseph. You're just too busy bashing the Jews to bother.
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

Becky Johnson is a War Criminal like Goebbels
Spewing Hatred against Palestinians and Lies is crime. Becky Johnson is a war criminal of the same stripe as Goebbels.
 

Suicide bombings are war crimes and collective punishment

I support Israel's right to defend itself from Palestinian terrorist groups.

Look, I'm just a school teacher and a part time writer. How can I be compared to Goebbels? How could I have committed a war crime? You are talking gibberish. Hateful, warped, character-assassinations based on specious claims, unsupported by any evidence whatsoever, but intended to damage my reputation and credibility.
Or maybe you are just an uptight, repressed asshole venting at me because you hate women. Especially women with opinions. Not to mention you are a coward for spewing such venom hidden behind a pseudonym. Come out, come out, you little slimeball! You wouldn't dare talk like that in front of witnesses.

NOW A QUESTION FOR INDYREADERS:

Who supports the suicide bombers?

A suicide bomb was detonated in Tel Aviv on Feb. 25th killing 5 people and wounding 65. Not only was this mass murder of innocent civilians, but its so terrifying to the general population that is certainly qualifies as collective punishment.

Check out the rally that was held YESTERDAY in Hebron in which Islamic leaders proclaimed 'Our beloved Jihad blew up Tel Aviv!', and 'No peace with Israelis!'

So who is supporting these murderous attacks on Israeli civilians?

(hint: if you say "Palestinians" then you are a racist)

story.news.yahoo.com/news
 

NOW A QUESTION FOR BECKY JOHNSON:

BJ: "Look, I'm just a school teacher and a part time writer."

What do you get *paid* to write? Do you get paid to write comments on indymedia supporting the Zionist line?
 

And I am not a Zionist either

I am paid $25 per article by the American Friends Service Committee for articles I write for Street Spirit (a homeless newspaper).

I am not paid for articles I write about Israel, Judaism, or the anti-zionists.

I am also not paid for comments I post on IMC.

I am a member and volunteer my services to Dafka.
 

Re: Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel

"by just curious
BJ: "Look, I'm just a school teacher and a part time writer."

What do you get *paid* to write? Do you get paid to write comments on indymedia supporting the Zionist line? "

Do you get *paid* to write? Do you get paid to write comments on indymedia supporting the Hamas terrorists line?
 

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