College Not Combat

photo by Bob Fitch - April 5, 2005

UCSC STUDENT KICK MILITARY RECRUITERS OFF CAMPUS Words & Photos, ©Bob Fitch
santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/17280/index.php

We're coming out, can't wait to see you all out there.

Not that I don't at least partially support your cause, but you guys might want to actually read the UCSC Non-discrimination Policy before claiming that the recruiters are violating it. There's a clear litmus test outlined in the first sentence of the policy which Don't Ask/Don't Tell passes (and it's there for a reason - if the University were to outlaw any practice that can be construed as discriminatory, things like the Women's Center and the GLBT would violate the policy as well).

Shut them down and run them off campus.

Comment: While it is ture that the military is sexist and anti-gay this is not the strongest reason to oppose them on campus. Even If they were to become Equal Opportunity Employers we would still be against them on campus.

I think its better to focus on the lies they tell and tthe laws they break when they lie to students. And that the war is wrong.

The Women's Center and GLBT were created to combat sexism and other forms of discrimination that have historically harmed women and basically anyone who doesn't conform to the standards of heteronormativity. For these reasons these resources are not discriminatory in the same sense that the military is. The military is a sexist institution that has historically (and still does) discriminate against gays and lesbians to the harm of these groups.

So "thetruth", your logic doesn't really make much sense.

Good luck folks, may the warmongers never return.

Think about what you're saying dcbg - the GLBTC and Women's center were created with the intent to combat other forms of discrimination, but are in and of themselves discriminatory.

In the same manner, it can be said that Don't Ask/Don't Tell was created with the intent to combat a form of discrimination, and also that it is in and of itself discriminatory.

That's the thing about policy - you can't just selectively apply it to situations that you agree with. The litmus test is there for a reason, and the argument that DA/DT violates the non-discrim policy isn't a sound one.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't oppose the military recuiting on campus, but you only weaken yourselves if you use a false argument when you do.

'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' in addition to the military's ban on women serving in combat positions is a violation of the following requirement on the Career Center's registration website for employers:

"*Required I hereby affirm that my organization is an equal opportunity employer, offering employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, sexual orientation, disability, or citizenship unless legally required, and provides equal employment opportunity to disabled veterans, and veterans of the Vietnam era."

Offering employment without regard to sexual orientation is not something the military can do. When queer students walk up to them, tell them they're queer and would like to join, they are either denied access, or lied to by recruiters who tell them to hide their identity so that they can meet their quota.

Considering that many universities and its programs have, in the past millenium, been a space that are only open to priveleged straight white men, the inclusion of a Women's Center, GLBTI Center, or other Centers (such as the AAPIRC, Chicano/Latino Resource Center, EOP, etc.) are an attempt at equalization.

"I think its better to focus on the lies they tell and tthe laws they break when they lie to students. And that the war is wrong."

I think it's better to let the students decide for themselves then for you to decide for them.

"Considering that many universities and its programs have, in the past millenium, been a space that are only open to priveleged straight white men, the inclusion of a Women's Center, GLBTI Center, or other Centers (such as the AAPIRC, Chicano/Latino Resource Center, EOP, etc.) are an attempt at equalization."

Indeed - the surest path to equality is to emphasize the difference, rather than just treat everyone the same.

I'm not sure women need a resource center now that they are the majority of college students - if that's any indication, I'd say equality has been met.

Why do you want MORE people to join the military, instead of LESS people?

The military is out of control, in service to an out-of-control government. Gays should be banned utterly from military enrollment, as should women. As should straights, and men. Everyone should be banned! No one should be allowed to sign up to arbitrarily kill and destroy on behalf of the elite.

San Diego State University Activists Protest Military Recruiters

The Campus Anti-war Network at San Diego State protested military recruiters on October 13th and refused to back down in the face of police intimidation.

Military recruiters occupied San Diego State University for three days this week. They put on an extravagant display with hummers, war simulation games, a rock climbing wall, and even propelled off of buildings and parachuted out of aircrafts. All of this was an attempt to project an image of the military as a hub of adventure and excitement. Our protest showed up to expose the reality of life in the military: war, discrimination, sexual harassment and unfulfilled promises of opportunity. 10 activists from the Campus Anti-war Network (CAN) and the International Socialist Organization surrounded the recruiters during one of their propelling stunts and demanded that the military leave our campus.

Read more >>
sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/10/111443.shtml

"[sarcastically] the surest path to equality is to emphasize the difference, rather than just treat everyone the same."


when you say "the same" do you really mean treat everyone as if they were white men? Different people with differing identities work in complex and varied ways - you cannot assume that the historical standards for white men apply to the majority of the world's population who are not white men.


"I'm not sure women need a resource center now that they are the majority of college students - if that's any indication, I'd say equality has been met."

If equality has been met, at least in this particular instance of men and women, you're making assumption that these men and women you're speaking of are white. White women have been the biggest benefactors of Affirmative Action programs in the past, while there still remains a disproportionately low percentage of women and men of color in college.

When you question the need for a Women's Center, you have to consider that a space like this is for all sorts of women, many of which are underrepresented at UCSC. You also need to consider that women are the vast majority of gender-based violence victims (rape, etc.), and spaces like the Women's Center are a vital places to feel safe. Also, society is dominated by white men, making the few Women's Centers there are very important.

I will never understand why you people feel the need to tell other College students that they are too dumb to make the choice for themselves. By not allowing the military to have its voice on campus, you not throw out any relationship you once had to free speech, buut also show a complete distrust of your own class mates.

I will never understand why you people feel the need to tell other College students that they are too dumb to make the choice for themselves. By not allowing the [KKK] to have its voice on campus, you not throw out any relationship you once had to free speech, buut also show a complete distrust of your own class mates.

This march and rally is not about restricting straight students' job prospects - it's about ensuring that EVERY student on campus has the ability to join EVERY employer at the job fair.

The concept that the military's speech is being squashed is a joke. The military uses over 5 billion dollars annually in its attempt to recruit youth. They buy ads on all the popular TV and radio stations, they buy billboards in communities across the country, they steal students' contact information from every high school, community college, and sometimes universities, they have a database of over 30 million youth ages 16-25, and you want to say that their 'free speech' is being threatened by students at ONE little university?

What a bunch of shit. If someone wants to join the military, they can march themselves over to Capitola and sign up right there. No one is standing in their way.

What about UCSC's FREEDOM to uphold its nondiscrimination policies? Thank god for the Forum for Academic and Institutional Rights (FAIR) - that's challenging the Solomon Amendment in the Supreme Court this winter.

"What a bunch of shit. If someone wants to join the military, they can march themselves over to Capitola and sign up right there. No one is standing in their way."

And if someone wants to hear your spin, they can go to your website and read your magazines. But I think you would make a stink and a half if they tried to stop you from putting your point forward right?

The military put me through College, just like a lot of people. so if you want to go on and on about "getting your facts straight", you should at least point out that the military is a good way to get somewhere in this life.

"No one is standing in their way."
If my old mind remembers right, protesters did get in the way in Capitola last year. By not allowing folks to get the message at events like this, you are standing in the way of other people's rights to better their lives and do something for their country.

Your whole cause is an abortion, you claim to fight discrimination and oppression, but your the ones oppressing other rights, and discriminating. If the military want's to put it's message out there, let us do it, if someone want to get that info, good on 'em....if not no biggie. Look at other organization's forms of discrimination, let's take the NBA, they discriminate against people that are short, if you not over 68" tall, good luck, women.....no can do, it the NBA, if you have a mental disability, will they let you play professional basketball? Just a what if kinda thing. You complain that women can't get in to combat job's, do you know why that is? Picture a woman in my job in the Infantry, in the field for 45 days, no shower, very little sleep, alway's moving, could a woman do that, hell yes, would there be some health issue's to deal with, hell yes. The Don't ask/Don't tell policy, I have nothing against people who prefer the other side of the pasture. Men can't shower with women, do the sex issue, why would you have a man that favor's other men shower with you, checking you out the whole time, possible, once again, another what if. So reserch a little more, find out why these policy's are in place, there's a reason, they don't just make these rules to be asshole's, and if you think for one second that's why, I think your smoking some good shit. Discrimination is everywhere, and it's much more abundant in other venue's other then the military. And the whole war issue, I won't even get started, I will say this, unless you've been there, you really have no place to be saying what it's like. Remember, you have the freedom to attend college due to soldier's that have poured their blood, sacrificed for you, your family, your friends, thats why I do it. I protect those that can't defend themselve's and those that don't want to. I support your right to protest, it show's that what my brothers in arms are doing around the world is worth it, but don't bite the hand that's feeding you. So in closing what I'm saying is, let the those who might be interested get that information from recruiter, if your not interested in joining don't, finish college, get into a career, make a family and have a happy life, thats what I would wish for you. As the motto for the Air Force's PJ's (ParaRescue Jumpers [commando medics]) says, "these thing we do, that others may live".

Countries that Allow Gay Men and Women to Serve Openly in the Armed Forces:

Australia, Canada, Finland, Israel, New Zealand, Spain, Austria, Czech Republic, France, Lithuania, Norway, Sweden, Bahamas, Denmark, Germany, Luxenbourg, Slovenia, Switzerland, Belgium, Estonia, Ireland, Netherlands, South Africa, UK

Countries that Forbid Gay Men and Lesbians from Serving in the Military:

Iran, Iraq, Libya, United States

Which list should your country be on?

U.S. Soldiers already serve with Openly Gay Soldiers: Our NATO Allies

from www.solomonresponse.org
www.law.georgetown.edu/solomon/documents/posters/WhichList.pdf

Too be honest with you, I agree that gay folks should be allowed to serve. I think that it is a bit silly at this point that we do not, and I think you will see a change in that department very soon. I also don't think the 'dont ask dont tell' policy is a terrible injustice either.

I do disagree with the notion that the military is like throwing your life away to a worthless cause. I believe strongly in America, and I think that any young person who feels the same way and wants to reap some of its benifits, then go for it.

But let people make that choice for themselves. Hand out anti military literature and talk to students about your ideas, but dont block them (military recruiters) from being on campus. That will be a true injustice.

"when you say "the same" do you really mean treat everyone as if they were white men? Different people with differing identities work in complex and varied ways - you cannot assume that the historical standards for white men apply to the majority of the world's population who are not white men."

You're over-anaylizing my statement - by treating people the same I mean that the government shouldn't have laws such as affirmative action - it shouldn't base any decision upon race.

As it stands, I treat people the same - why shouldn't I? Can you tell me in what circumstance I should treat a black man differently from a white man?

The Military shouldn't be allowed to come onto our campus for a veriety of reasons. Perhaps the most clear and abvious reason is that they violate the Career Fair's own criteria about who and who isnt allowed in. Secondly, for all of you fascists saying that the soldiers are defending our right to free speech and our way of life, I would recomend that you take a closer look at what our soldiers are currently doing in Iraq. Iraq never threatened us. WE went to war with them because WE claimed that they were making wmd's(weapons that the U.S. already has and still produces in mass quantities). Secondly, the mass murder of Iraqi civilians certainly isnt protecting my right to free speech, or my way of life for that matter. The fact is that this is an imperialist war being fought for corporations and the wealthy, and I'm so sorry that some of you believe that our soldiers are actually helping anybody but the two aforementioned groups. The military is classist(rich people don't need money for college, only the disenfranchised do), sexist(women can't serve in combat positions, and are consistently harrased/raped without check) and are homophobic(Don't Ask, Don't Tell). And last but not least, everyone saying that "if you havent been over there, you can't talk about it" is complete and total lunacy. Using that standard everything you read in a book during your entire education would be illegitimate because you werent there, or didnt actually do it. An organization who's main function is slaughtering the poor peoples of the earth has no right to speak in my university.

"The Military shouldn't be allowed to come onto our campus for a veriety of reasons. Perhaps the most clear and abvious reason is that they violate the Career Fair's own criteria about who and who isnt allowed in."

Can we ban Mecha, the black panthers, and all those other exclusionary organizations as well?

I don't agree with their message, and like you I don't think people I disagree with should be allowed to speak on campus.

"An organization who's main function is slaughtering the poor peoples of the earth has no right to speak in my university."

And that's why we should ignore your irrational ravings, IT IS NOT YOUR UNIVERSITY.

n5667 said: "Can we ban Mecha, the black panthers, and all those other exclusionary organizations as well?"

It's generally a good idea to do your research before making false claims. MEChA does not exclude anyone and there are white folks who are members. In fact, I have heard of a MEChA chapter that is predominantely white.

Additionally, the Black Panthers were not exclusionary, as they also had white members. While the media was obsessed with the 'sensation' of black folks with guns, if you view video footage or read into the Panthers' history, you will see that there were white folks who played important roles in the organization.

It should also be noted that the military is part of the government, not some community-based organization. There's no excuse for the government's discrimination.

And finally... students pay thousands and thousands of dollars in fees, work many campus jobs, and enable the whole university system to run. As much as those in power wish to control what occurs, it is ultimately OUR university and we have the power to shut it down.

This is my campus and I don't want the military on it. I'm not restricting the military's rights at all. If the military wants to promote itself on the radio or on TV, I wouldn't care much. I don't want them on my campus. It's as simple as that. It's my campus and therefore it's my rules. I pay taxes, I pay tuition, I attend the classes, and I don't want the military here. It's like a business exercising it's right to refuse service to anyone. It isn't written into the constitution that the military should be allowed wherever it wants. That's why I have the right to tell the military to leave.

And yes it is actually my university. It sure as hell isn't the military's university.

I personally don't care if the military discriminates against anyone. The fact that the military discriminates against gay people just means that if there is a draft I can get out of it by saying I'm gay. For that fact alone I like the discrimination. If the military decided to decline all white males from Santa Cruz then I'd be happier cause I wouldn't have to lie about my sexuality.

The military teaches you how to kill and murder others. Unless your future job is hired assassin, the military is not teaching you valuable job skills. A career in the military is a huge step down for a college student. Especially when that career makes you an amputee back from Iraq.

The goal of UCSC should not be to train its students to kill. It should be to train its students to be positive members of society.

"And finally... students pay thousands and thousands of dollars in fees, work many campus jobs, and enable the whole university system to run. As much as those in power wish to control what occurs, it is ultimately OUR university and we have the power to shut it down."

Taxpayers contribute much more money than we students do - and regardless, it is not just "your" university. There are also people there who might not have the same opinions as you and I don't quite understand your insistance on anything you disagree with not being allowed.

I mean, how would you feel if planned parenthood was banned from the campus because they promote the murder of unborn babies? I bet you'd be pretty riled up - but in that person's mind it would make perfect since.

"And yes it is actually my university. It sure as hell isn't the military's university."

It's not yours or the military's, it's the state of California's, and the state represents the wishes and desires of the entire populace.

My point still stands, what right do you have to limit another person's ability to exercise their rights? Be it the military, the ku klux klan, or planned parenthood?

"The military teaches you how to kill and murder others. Unless your future job is hired assassin, the military is not teaching you valuable job skills. A career in the military is a huge step down for a college student. Especially when that career makes you an amputee back from Iraq.

The goal of UCSC should not be to train its students to kill. It should be to train its students to be positive members of society."

Neither of those statements are entirely true, as far as I'm aware UCSC does not actually have much to do with the military aside from letting a recruiter set up a table - where do they they have boot camp on campus?

But I'm afraid your statement is rather selfish - not that many people join the military to kill (though there are those that do, granted)... They do it for a myriad of reasons and the way you speak about the military it seems to me you don't actually know that much about it, or the people who have served in it.

"An organization who's main function is slaughtering the poor peoples of the earth has no right to speak in my university."

It is statements like this that have made the left look so looney. I consider myself a "person of the left" who supports the military and the government, so I would prefer to not have folks like this dicatate to all of us free thinkers what I can and can not hear on campus.

I am thankfull you represent a small portion of the school.

The statement that the military doesn't teach you an job skills is completely false. I'm a infantry man, an expert in smallarm's and ground combat, but with the other skills I've been trained in I could be a EMT, a heavy equipment operator, an office manager, an administration clerk, a truck driver, a law enforcement agent, etc. I'm a certified HAZMAT handler as well. Those aren't a bad set of job skills to have, plus I know how to take charge, while being fair and flexable, and still accomplish whatever task I've been assigned, with speed, precision and safety. So as others have said, do your research, instead of assuming you know everything. "Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups"

n5667: "and the state represents the wishes and desires of the entire populace."

I'm not even going to try and make a political point here, but people should really think before they write dumb-ass stuff like this. It is not possible for any state to represent the wishes of an entire populace. And if you mean the majority of the populace, this still doesn't make sense. Even if all of the states' actions were voted on (which is ridiculous and obviously not the case), a large portion of the population would undoubtedly still not vote, and their "desires" would not be represented. Your whole approach is nonsensical. I mean, most people I know, even those who vote, don't feel like anything resembling their desires could ever be represented by some politician. Saying everyone consented to whatever-in-the-fuck is happening in a state is just a cheap justification for whatever that may be.

That may have been poorly worded, I admit - however the system as it stands now is a generally effective method of letting everyone's voice be heard. And because no one truly thinks alike, no one is going to be entirely happy with the way things are.

However, if enough people have an opinion on a subject, the politicians will acquiesce.

Most people don't have the opinion of the military that is held by the staff and student body of UCSC - or at least, the opinion of the majority of those who post on this web page.

However, my point was that it's not only the students of UCSC have a say about what happens at UCSC.

I think the state is very responsive to the desires of the people in it. If you folks really want the military to just go away, you can elect candidates you will do just that. Now getting enough people to agree with you is another subject altogether....

Oscar suggests, "If you folks really want the [U.S.] military to just go away, you can elect candidates you will do just that."

Some of us are working on exactly that.

Socialist City Council Candidate Scores Big!

santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/18849/index.php

Of course this system is so corrupt and entrenched that it will take more than just elections to bring real change.