"Actually, the Arab armies involved in the war of 1948 did not outnumber the proto-Israeli army. The Haganah (the armed wing of the Jewish Yishuv settler government in Palestine) and several extremist militias (such as the Stern Gang and Lehi- both of which were headed by subsequent Israeli Prime Ministers) combined to form a Zionist fighting force which in fact outnumbered the Arab armies 10 to 1... The most respected historians of 1948 and the Palestinian Nakba have noted this. Read Nur Masalha (palestinian) and Benny Morris (Israeli) for starters. "
Well, what interest does Nur Masalha have being impartial? Benny Morris had also engaged in shoddy research in the past.
Conversely, there are far more accurate figures provided by sources trusted by both Zionists and non-Zionists that refute both Masalha and Morris' (earlier?) estimates of the Arab and Jewish fighting forces' strengths on the eve of Israeli independence.
Estimates propagated by both impartial and Zionist sources relates the following figures:
Another reliable source, The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Middle East Conflict," by Mitchell Bard, Ph.D. (Alpha Books -- Macmillan USA), says:
"At the time of the invasion, the five Arab armies, despite their large populations, were composed of only 80,000 men...The Haganah had 60,000 trained fighters, a third of whom had combat experience, but on May 12, only 18,900 Jewish soldiers were fully armed and prepared for war...On May 28, the Sternists formally disbanded as 850 of its fighters marched together to join the Tzahal." (the IDF)
Note that Dr. Mitchell Bard omitted to mention the contingents sent by Saudi Arabia and other countries allied with the Arab League.
The number of armed Irgun members was obviously smaller than the Haganah's 18,900 and Stern Gang's armed ranks were even smaller. So, in mid May 1948 the Zionist fighters didn't even total 50,000.
Additionally, both Irgun and Stern Gang were much smaller in membership than Haganah and Stern Gang was smaller than Irgun in the same respect.
Keep in mind also the armament picture:
the invading Arab forces were fully equipped with the standard weapons of a regular army of the time -- artillery, tanks, armored cars and personnel carriers, in addition to machine guns, mortars and the usual small arms in great quantities, and full supplies of ammunition, oil, and gasoline. Egypt, Iraq and Syria had air forces. As sovereign states, they had no difficulty in securing whatever armaments they needed through normal channels from Britain and other friendly powers. The pre-State Jewish forces, on the contrary, had been prevented from acquiring arms by the British and so had no matching artillery, no tanks, and no warplanes in the first days of the war.
In summary, even if we accepted that the Arab fighters' ranks never swelled above 80,000 at their peak and the Zionist fighters totaled up to 140,000 at one point, they would have outnumbered the Arab fighters only by a 1.75 ratio and were would be very inferior in equipment.
2. Gay Palestinians Jake knows or heard of:
Jake isn't telling anyone here how their Palestinian environment has treated them. Quelle surprise?
In any event, hopefully Jake wouldn't expect anyone to believe gays are treated better by Palestinians than by the State of Israel.
3. Israelis supposedly living in Beit Sahour:
Having lived in Israel for years, I have a tiny bit of trouble believing that many of Jake's Jewish and Israeli friends have come to visit him in Beit Sahour or other PA governed locations (or even B Areas). Furthermore, the Israelis "living here" which he's aludding to are Jewish residents living of the area, or settlers as they're commonly called who don't live in Beit Sahour itself at any rate. No other Jews live in that region.
Comments about Jake's points
Date Edited: 12 Jan 2005 12:13:06 AM
"Actually, the Arab armies involved in the war of 1948 did not outnumber the proto-Israeli army. The Haganah (the armed wing of the Jewish Yishuv settler government in Palestine) and several extremist militias (such as the Stern Gang and Lehi- both of which were headed by subsequent Israeli Prime Ministers) combined to form a Zionist fighting force which in fact outnumbered the Arab armies 10 to 1... The most respected historians of 1948 and the Palestinian Nakba have noted this. Read Nur Masalha (palestinian) and Benny Morris (Israeli) for starters. "
Well, what interest does Nur Masalha have being impartial? Benny Morris had also engaged in shoddy research in the past.
Conversely, there are far more accurate figures provided by sources trusted by both Zionists and non-Zionists that refute both Masalha and Morris' (earlier?) estimates of the Arab and Jewish fighting forces' strengths on the eve of Israeli independence.
Estimates propagated by both impartial and Zionist sources relates the following figures:
Egyptian armed forces: 300,000
Jordanian armed forces: 60,000
Syrian armed forces: 300,000
Iraqi armed forces 10,000 (in Israel)
Lebanese armed forces: ???
Palestinian Arab fighters: 50,000
Israeli fighters: 140,000
(See palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_course.php
www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/israel1948.htm)
Another reliable source, The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Middle East Conflict," by Mitchell Bard, Ph.D. (Alpha Books -- Macmillan USA), says:
"At the time of the invasion, the five Arab armies, despite their large populations, were composed of only 80,000 men...The Haganah had 60,000 trained fighters, a third of whom had combat experience, but on May 12, only 18,900 Jewish soldiers were fully armed and prepared for war...On May 28, the Sternists formally disbanded as 850 of its fighters marched together to join the Tzahal." (the IDF)
Note that Dr. Mitchell Bard omitted to mention the contingents sent by Saudi Arabia and other countries allied with the Arab League.
The number of armed Irgun members was obviously smaller than the Haganah's 18,900 and Stern Gang's armed ranks were even smaller. So, in mid May 1948 the Zionist fighters didn't even total 50,000.
Additionally, both Irgun and Stern Gang were much smaller in membership than Haganah and Stern Gang was smaller than Irgun in the same respect.
Keep in mind also the armament picture:
the invading Arab forces were fully equipped with the standard weapons of a regular army of the time -- artillery, tanks, armored cars and personnel carriers, in addition to machine guns, mortars and the usual small arms in great quantities, and full supplies of ammunition, oil, and gasoline. Egypt, Iraq and Syria had air forces. As sovereign states, they had no difficulty in securing whatever armaments they needed through normal channels from Britain and other friendly powers. The pre-State Jewish forces, on the contrary, had been prevented from acquiring arms by the British and so had no matching artillery, no tanks, and no warplanes in the first days of the war.
In summary, even if we accepted that the Arab fighters' ranks never swelled above 80,000 at their peak and the Zionist fighters totaled up to 140,000 at one point, they would have outnumbered the Arab fighters only by a 1.75 ratio and were would be very inferior in equipment.
2. Gay Palestinians Jake knows or heard of:
Jake isn't telling anyone here how their Palestinian environment has treated them. Quelle surprise?
In any event, hopefully Jake wouldn't expect anyone to believe gays are treated better by Palestinians than by the State of Israel.
3. Israelis supposedly living in Beit Sahour:
Having lived in Israel for years, I have a tiny bit of trouble believing that many of Jake's Jewish and Israeli friends have come to visit him in Beit Sahour or other PA governed locations (or even B Areas). Furthermore, the Israelis "living here" which he's aludding to are Jewish residents living of the area, or settlers as they're commonly called who don't live in Beit Sahour itself at any rate. No other Jews live in that region.
New Comments are disabled, please visit Indybay.org/SantaCruz