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Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

George of Free Radio Santa Cruz 101.1 fm. (www.freakradio.org) interviews Israeli Refusers, Noam Bahat & Shimri Zamaret on her show "Peace Talks" (3 to 6 pm. Sundays).

In September, 2004, 5 Israeli Jewish high school refusniks --prisoners of conscience-- were released from Israeli prison. Noam Bahat after serving 645 days in prison and Shimri Zamaret after 643 days in prison. Noam and Shimri speak about the Israeli Occupation of Palestinian lands, the reasons for their refusal to be conscripted into the Israel Defense Forces, and their experience in prison.

Audio: Listen to the Stream or Download the mp3 (48:07)

[ Refuser Solidarity Network I B'Tselem I RCNV's Middle East Report I Gush Shalom (en) ]
14165_IsraeliRefuseniksNov.21_04.mp3
IsraeliRefuseniksNov.21_04.mp3 (8192 k)
George of Free Radio Santa Cruz 101.1 fm. (www.freakradio.org)interviews Israeli Refusers, Noam Bahat & Shimri Zamaret on her show "Peace Talks" (3 to 6 pm. Sundays).

In September, 2004, 5 Israeli Jewish high school refusniks --prisoners of conscience-- were released from Israeli prison. Noam Bahat after serving 645 days in prison and Shimri Zamaret after 643 days in prison. Noam and Shimri speak about the Israeli Occupation of Palestinian lands, the reasons for their refusal to be conscripted into the Israel Defense Forces, and their experience in prison.
 
 


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Comments

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Fantastic interview! This is one of the more hopeful things I've heard in quite awhile.

These young men were very knowledgable and articulate about their cause. I hope they inspire many others, including those in the United States.
 

Wouldn't it be nice if

Too bad there's no Arab peace movement, nor are there Arab refuseniks to stand against the obscene war against Israel...
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

If the Palestinians HAD an army, and had mandatory conscription in said army, we can be sure there would be a refusal movement. Wouldn't it be nice if... the US give $10 billion in direct military aid to the Palestinians, too?
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Perhaps we could hear more Palestinian people speaking out against the use of terror against innocent civilians? 'Commentator' said we can be sure there would be a refusal movement...why can we be so sure?
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Hey, just a thought, this is called the INDEPENDENT media center for a reason. You don't think we're hearing enough Palestinian people speaking out against the use of terror? Why don't *YOU* contact a Palestinian speaking out, interview them, and post it here?

You moan about the coverage that *IS* on this site, but you don't contribute anything, yourself.

One person you might like to talk with is Sami Awad. Here is an interview I did with him on FRSC One and a half years ago. Just a thought, you should listen closely... ftp.radio4all.net/pub/archive/07.08.03/RTB_sami_awad.mp3

Here is a recent article by Sami:www.palestinenet.org/english/articles/sami.htm
 

Amen, Vinny

These apologist pieces of shit always bitch when any source anywhere badmouths their sacred cow, the zionist mafia state.

If they don't like it, there's NPR, a thousand shitrag newspapers, and 500 channels of corporate bullshit they can tune to, where they'll never ever encounter anything that will offend them.
 

Just to put things in perspective

Israel has a standing army of 186,500 troops and 30,000 reservists. Looking at the website, and assuming every name is a legitimate name and there are no duplicates, this represents a ratio of "refuseniks" to participants of slightly more than 2 per 1,000 draftees, a trifling figure.

This group is just another purveyor of anti-Israeli propaganda. Whether they are motivated by money, their own bigotry, or mis-guided ignorance does not excuse the injustice that they do.
 

Why do you hate Israel so much?

to F_ _ _ the nazis: Its not that legitimate criticism of Israel is bad, per se. Its when ONLY criticism of Israel is printed, reported, and protested to the exclusion of many other much more egregious cases of human rights abuses, that some of us take offense to the lop-sided reporting and the double-standard practiced.

Vinny should take note of your words too, because he should see the kind of company he has to keep to keep to continue his vitriolic attacks against the Israelis.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Amazing what a small group of determined activists can do, huh Becky? Oh, wait, I guess you really wouldn't understand, because you're not an activist. You are a tool, and have been for quite some time. I'm through mincing words w/ you.

I applaud te refuseniks who are brave enough to speak out. They usually receive lengthy jail terms, and harsh condemnation. Often times refuseniks are ostrasized from family and friends. The few refuseniks I've personally spoken with, also report that other IDF rservists, and soldiers quietly applaud and agree with their choice to resist. I'd bet the numbers of soldiers who *don't* speak out, is much greater than the number of those who do. Speaking out for the truth, is not an easy choice for many common folks to make...
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

No Becky, Its ANY criticism of Israel you are upset with...

To the anonymous person who posted above, everyone is entitled to their views. Who's to say it wasn't you Becky? In your warped way of trying to further smear my name? I hope they pay you well.

I personally *donot* and *have never* equated the Jewish people with Nazis.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Why don't I contact a Palestinian and interview them? Here's the reason...if someone speaks out in Israel they might get a jail term or feel unpopular whereas in the West Bank alone over 200 people have been murdered by militants for speaking out or being suspected collabrators (needless to say its without trial!). It comes back to the reason we don't have a Palestinian refusenik movemement doesnt it?

Why do people seem to get offended with all the anti-Israel attacks well F**k the Nazis its because of people who you don't seem to have an intelligent comment to make and instead launch into abuse...legitimite criticism of Israel's political action is fine but not when its just an excuse for anti-semitism as seems to be the case with you.

Finally is everyone entitled to their views or is this just some comment Vinny has thrown off the top of his head? Vinny what if that views supports ethnic cleansing, murder, the destruction of the State of Israel maybe and lets be honest eventually if people feel strongly enough about a view then they'll act on it...maybe we need to be honest and say some views are not legit!
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

FtN wrote; 'there's NPR, a thousand shitrag newspapers, and 500 channels of corporate bullshit they can tune to, where they'll never ever encounter anything that will offend them.'

This, I agree with. IMC, FRSC, Pacifica, other independent media, try is it might to bring a new perspective, is but a whisper.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

"Just a thought" says 200 people have been murdered by militants for speaking out or being suspected collabrators. Does the writer have irrefutable proof this is true or is this just some BS Becky Johnson made up under a fals name?
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

I don't know who Becky Johnson is and don't feel the need to prove that im not her but for what its worth im a student from England. There is proof for cases and the numbers estimated are not my own but come from independent sources. Are you denying that Palestinians kill people suspected of 'collabarating' with the West without trial? If you keep up with the media then i assure it won't take long before you read another case of it.

Vinny, i assume you picked up on the numbers because you agree with the general drift of the rest of what i've said?

Listener i have to be honest and admit i don't know that much about media in the USA but in Europe and especially England you have to work hard to find a balanced picture and that is all i'd ask for. There shouldn't be pro-Israel and Pro-Palestinian sources but balanced ones prepared to admit that its a complex situation in which both sides have made mistakes and both sides need to compromise in order to move forward.

My argument is that in Israel there is a free press allowing criticism (and this is reflected in the Jewish community) but this freedom does not exist for the Palestinian people because of a Pa controlled media and the threat of execution for speaking out (by militants not the PA to my knowledge). Unfortunatly I don't believe that the Arab world has any interest in a balanced account and too often causes either unquestioned agreement from the West or such avid defense of Israel...either the way the truth which lies somewhere in between (and where is open to debate) is lost.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

I would also ask at one point and amongst which sources are the attacks on Israel a new manifestation of old Anti-Semitism? This is clearly not always the case since some people legitimtly criticise Israeli political and military actions but I feel that this isn't always the case and in my encounters with Anti-Israel groups I find that it doesn't like long before the terms used in the conversation become mixed between Israel, Israeli's and Jews.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

never assume anything, especially about me.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

In which case why don't you clear up what you think instead of ignoring the main questions that i've posted.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

To "Just a Thought":

Before you begin extrapolating on the state of the Palestinian media and other features of Palestinian society you would do well to come here and check it out yourself. If you had the courage to do so- to come here and live among Palestinians- you would have a great deal of diffuculty in maintaining your ridiculous assertions.

Having lived in the Occupied Palestinian Territories for almost 9 months, I can tell you surely that you have no idea about the reality of the situation here. You are living in a fantasy.

Please have the self-respect to keep your mouth shut about things you have no idea about, or make the effort to come here long enough to educate yourself.

To Vinny, George, and the rest of the SC posse, keep up the great work and hold it down out there!

hutt al nasr!
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Ridiculous assesrtions? Tell me if im wrong but the question still stands do people get murdered for being suspected collabarators withou having a trial, yes or no? Calling me names and throwing accusations around is all well and good but still no answer to any of my major questions.

Now as for extrapolating, to steal a word, what do you know about me Jake? Nothing. I'm not going to give you my life history or why I understand this situation better then you could imagine because I don't have to justify myself. I will tell you that I am educated and to suggest that unless you live somewhere you can't comment on it is ridiculous because in that case your SC posse should surely do the same?

It seems that since I started posting on here (and this thread is my first) I've put forward questions and recieved abuse for doing so, I thought this was an independent media source? Clearly some people are trying to monpolise it and stop an open discussion. I would be interested in hearing counter views from Vinny, George, Jake or any of the 'SC posse' but please cut out the abuse because it makes you look foolish which im sure you're not.
 

Reality check

When there is sufficient evidence of a person being a collaborator, that person is arrested by the Palestinian Authority and given a trial. There have been cases where members of an armed faction got hold of a suspected collaborator before the PA and executed that person, but this is a relatively rare and unfortunate occurance.

That is a general point, but unlike "Just a Thought", I can offer a real situation as an example to support my argument:

You may remember an incident in Gaza city a couple years ago when Israel dropped a one ton bomb on a 9 story apartment building? They killed a couple militants and 9 children along with a couple more adult civilians. The Palestinian collaborator who had revealed the location of the militants to the Israeli army before that attack was decieved by the military. He thought he was pursuing the militant to interview him for an international news agency. When he discovered that he had in fact helped Israel target and carry out an extra-judicial assassination he turned himself in to the political wing of HAMAS. The militant wing of HAMAS insisted that he be turned over to them for public execution. The political wing refused and instead turned him over to the Palestinian Authority, where he was given a trial.

To speak simply of the "killing of collaborators" without reference to the context, as "Just a Thought" does, is a huge mistake and reveals something about ones own political motivations. Palestinian collaborators are an intrical part of the Israeli occupation and Israel's most egregious human rights abuses in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Collaborators help Israel target people for extra-judicial assassinations and arrest. The assassinations are highly illegal and the arrest of politically active civilians is a violation of the most basic civil and political rights.

Collaborators are a vital part of any colonial regime and have always been dealt with harshly by their own people. When a collaborator was caught in South Africa during the Anti-Apartheid struggle, mobs of people would "necklace" the collaborator. This involved placing tires around the neck and lighting them on fire. The result was death.

Like the South Africans, the Palestinians are fighting a battle of national liberation. they are fighting against a highly systematic and violent attack on their communities, their culture, their land, their identity, and their bodies. Collaborators are one of the most insidious weapons used by Israel to control, oppress and kill Palestinians. When collaborators do their job successfully, the results are like those of the assassination attack in Gaza where 14 people (including 9 children) were killed. Clearly, the collaborators should be treated with reference to their humanity and international legal standards, but their role as a weapon of occupation also needs to be noted.

Passing references such as those offered by "Just a Thought" which are devoid of all context and any nuance are completely useless without reference to the actual real suituation on the ground in Palestine. "Just a Thought" argues that he is educated, but i have yet to see any evidence of that.

Those interested in actually dealing with these issues can start by taking a look at the website of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (www.pchrgaza.org), an indigenous Palestinian human rights organization that reports on violations of human rights by both Palestinians and Israel.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Finally an intelligent if flawed argument Jake but you couldn't resist a little dig could you?

I dont think I understand why a collobarator is a weapon of the Israeli occupation. Maybe they are people of conscience just as you see refuseniks...maybe they see the damage that the intifida has done to the Palestinian people or the immorality of targeting civilians and using selected passages of Islam as justification.

Secondly why do you feel the need to justify executions of said people by playing down the numbers...if you're going to say extra-judicial killings are highly illegal then be consistent. If people who against the national cause are dealt with harshly then maybe you could explain the difference between that treatment and Israel's treatment (which doesn't include executions). If you want specific examples how about Tennaunbaum, a suspected arms smuggler, who was saved from captivity in exchange for hundreds of prisoners.

Just because it was done in South Africa Jake doesn't make it right...plenty of things were done there at that time which weren't right and necklacing was one of them.

Why are my comments devoid of context? Is it because I haven't felt the need to post personal and individual stories which you can never prove or disprove as you have done?

Finally let's not be naive about this, your political objectives are clearly pro-Palestinian and you seem to have very little interest in a balanced accout of events. After your time in the territories go and spend time in Sedot (frequently attacked by rockets) or in Jerusalem and take the bus every day, get a balanced perspective Jake because this isn't a one sided situation.

There is a funademntal difference between the actions of the Israeli army and the armed terrorist factions in the territories and that is whether civilians are collateral damage or civilains are the main target. Israel has made mistakes, costly ones, for which it should apologise but its tactic has NEVER been to blow up buses of school children or teenagers preparing to go out. Nor is Israel sworn to the destruction of the Palestinian peopl, in stark contrast to Hamas' aims of driving Israel into the sea.

Jake, you accuse me of not understanding Palestinian society then explain it to me...Why is there no major media or public backlash against Palestinian terrorism against Israel? It doesn't seem that its popular since when given a chance the people voted for Abbas who stood against armed struggle. Where was the cry to stop armed violence at any point in the past four years?

You know all this, i'm sure you do but you have decided to take a blinkered look and thats pointless because if the Palestinian people refuse to take any responsibility for the situation then peace won't be achieved. Luckly, I believe, the people spoke on Sunday and voted for someone who realises that upholding Hamas and Islamic Jihad won't achieve peace, prosperity or security for the Palestinian people.

Jake i'm willing to accept that you come from a different viewpoint to me but that doesn't make you uneducated it makes you different.I'll leave you with two questions:

1) Why do militans surround themselves with children when they know they're a target?
2) What has the intifida achieved for the Palestinan people?
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

A quick question to Vinny...if this is truly independent then why are all the links at the top Pro-Palestinian groups, Jewish or not?

Is this is truly independent maybe the moderator of this forum could put up a few more balanced links as well?
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

To Just a Thought,

Of course Jake is pro-Palestinian and of course he believes you're talking rite up your arse. Of course not all Palestinians are good, kind-hearted human beings, and of course not all Israelis are obnoxious, spiteful characters.

Stop talking about this situation as if the Palestinians had a choice. The Intifada is trying to achieve what Jewish armed militias achieved in the years prior to the creation of the State of Israel; a world-wide recognised homeland.

Of course the British, with their excellent diplomatic skills, are always far too careful to remind the Israelis that not long ago, they were considered terrorists too. And chances that someone around the White House is even aware of this are, frankly, quite slim.

Oh, and question 2? Don't use the past tense please. The Intifada is not yet over. AND is not "Sedot", but "Sderot".

Be well,
Lupita Fitzcarraldo
 

Every nation or people (just like individuals) has a choice

What are you, a determinist?
The intifada has attempted to accomplish the flight of the Jews from their state by murdering as many Jews as possible and Israel's destruction so that the Palestinians could establish their state on Israel's ruins. Perpetrating ethnic cleansing or genocide to create a homeland is not a legitimate national aspiration.

As for pre-state Israeli terrorism, the dominant Zionist movement's (Labor's precurssor) paramilitary group engaged in it far less than their rightwing counterparts did. Labor's followers were the majority back then and they weren't terrorists. In any case, these paramilitaries never intended nor attempted to commit genocide on the local Arabs.

The intifada should be over, especially now that Arafat is gone. Hopefully Abu-Mazen will have the sense to call it off in the foreseeable future. The longer it lasts, the more the Palestinians will have to wait until they can establish their state west of the Jordan and the more they'll undergo hardships at the hands of Israel they wouldn't have had to suffer had they not unleashed that murder campaign.
 

Again, it's about reality

"Just a Thought" justifies his/her political naivety by making brash assumptions such as:

"There is a funademntal difference between the actions of the Israeli army and the armed terrorist factions in the territories and that is whether civilians are collateral damage or civilains are the main target."

This statement makes sense only if one wished to de-historicize the current conflict and refuse to consider the context of Israeli colonization and ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

There is no need to get into a debate on "terrorism" and 'resistance" with people like "Just a Thought." They have already delimited the terms of their fantasy and constructed a surreal world where Israel's aggressive colonial activities somehow become legitimate means of "defense."

One has only to read the chroniclers of Israeli colonialism (many themselves Israeli) to understand the historical development of Israel's current ethnic cleansing campaign. Zionist political thought in reference to the Palestinians has been dominated with the concept of "population transfer" (read Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe, Baruch Kimmerling, Bernard Avishai, Nur Masalha and Edward Said).

The discourse of Israeli colonialism is an outgrowth of other European colonial projects. It is the same racist thinking that spawned the American Genocide, South African Apartheid, and even the Holocaust (see Hannah Arendt's "The Origins of Totalitarianism").

78% of Palestine was almost completely ethnically cleansed in 1948 and the State of Israel was founded on the ruins of Palestinian society. Currently, the settlements and the Apartheid Wall (both highly illegal) spread across the remaining 22% of Palestine taking more land and serving as provocative reminders of the continuous Israeli attack on the land, people, history and identity of Palestinians and Palestine. When complete, the Wall (along with an Israeli controlled Segregation Zone in the Jordan Valley, will result in the theft of more than 50% of the remaining Palestinian territories.

The Wall along with Israeli home demolitions and land confiscations continue to push more Palestinians off their land and cleanse additional areas for Israeli control and colonial expansion. At this stage, genocide is certianly too strong a term, but there is no doubt in my mind that Israel is engaged in a slow and steady process of ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

"Just a Thought" and any others are invited to come to my home in Beit Sahour if they have any doubts. I will take you all over the territories, show you maps and satellite photographs, let you speak to people living here, and demonstrate just how Israeli colonialism functions. Ahlan wa sahlan, you are all welcome.

Personally, I do not support any Palestinian violence. I hold Palestinians to the same standards I hold everyone else- including Israelis. However, living here I am continually forced to ask myself the hard questions. If I were Palestinian and I saw the continued assault on my homeland and my people, the killings, arrests, humiliations, settlement expansion, Wall and Apartheid; what would i do? If I was faced with no future other than occupation, apartheid and death, what would I do?

"Just a Thought" and others like him/her would do well to ask themselves the same questions instead of hiding in a fantasy world completely at odds with the reality of the situation here in Palestine. Colonialism, imperialism and occupation create conflicts- they have done so around the world for centuries.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that little will change here until Israel abandons its colonial project in Palestine. Such a point is hard to prove, however, because Israel has never once stopped building settlements, stealing Palestinian land, and cleansing Palestinian communities. That is the sad reality.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Firstly Lupita I'd like you to re-read my post carefully and see that im happy to admit Israel made mistakes...it did things for which it should apologise. By the way nice choice for generalisations about Israeli's...wonder if that tells us anything about you? Secondly I apologise for my typing error and thank you for correcting it and thirdly I asked what is has achieved, that doesn't mean the intifida is over it asks the question what has been achieved by it so far.

Jake, you've gone back to personal insults and attacks and I can't understand why really but never mind. I'm sorry that you feel there is no point in discussing issues like terrorism with me because my views are different to yours. I have at no point attempted to de-hisoricise anything, in 1948 members of the Israeli extreme did commit acts which were completly unacceptable, i've never denied this. However lets be fair about this at least for a second, if you are going to talk about pre-1948 then what about the partition plan? Why was this not even mentioned in your post?

You constantly refer to colonialism and colonial plans and I assume you are referring to the settlements. Again you've jumped in with huge generalisations, i am against settlements and like over 70% of Israeli's support full withdrawl from Gaza as a first step before withdrawing from as much of the West Bank as is possible without putting the lives of Israeli's and the state of Israel's very existence at risk.

The common argument of land theft, land grab etc is thrown again without much thought Jake. Why don't you believe that Israel will withdraw from the settlements as its in the process of doing in Gaza? Your term colonial expansion amazes me because it completly disregards the security aspect of the fence (by the way lets get this right to...less then 20% is a wall). The one around Gaza ensured 1 attack in 11 years came from there. The simple fact is that if there was no terrorism then there would be no fence, it is being built as a response to terror.

Jake in your list of assumptions you once again assert that im in a fantasy world when in fact you know nothing of my past. I wish I could take up your invitation of visiting your home but I look at what happened to the two off duty Israeli soldiers who took a wrong turn and think it might not be such a good idea (do you remember what happened to them?).

This claim of ethnic cleansing is outrageous on two levels, first Israel has never rounded up people and executed them and secondly if Israel did want to ethnic cleanse the Palestinians then it would not be doing it this way.

I wonder if you remember the alleged 'Massacre in Jenin.' It was created fiction that hundreds,thousands died when in fact it was between 40 and 50 including at least 25 militans. Now thats a terrible number and even 1 is too many but I wonder how many people know the decisions taken by the Israeli army before that operation. Instead of flying planes and helicopters over Jenin and flattening it, Israel sent in footsoldiers to minimise civilians casualties...16 Israel soldiers died due to that decision. That doesn't sound like the racist regimes which you so clearly linked with Israel does it? These comparisons are dangerous because they attempt to cause associations in the minds of people who aren't fully aware of the situation. Jake knows as well as I do the fundamental differences between Israel, Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa and the American Genocide.

Finally please don't insult my intelligence and that of other people reading your posts. You cannot say you hold Palestinians to the same standards and then being to justify it. Not to mention your justification falls when you consider history...what about the non-violence that worked so well across the world? What about negotiation? Why didn't the Palestinian people rise up earlier and demand that their leadership stop violence on both sides as they have done by voting for Abbas now?

I try to think about both sides and to accuse of living in a fantasy world is to reduce the debate down to personal attacks and I won't get involved in that. I've never lived amongst the Palestinians but I know that they are suffering terribly and that it has to end. I however see a joint responsibility for that ending between Israel and the Palestinians (represented through the PA) and don't think that holding Israel soley to blame will achieve the aims of peace and security.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Thanks for doing this interview Vinny.

So-called "critical thinker" says, "Perpetrating ethnic cleansing or genocide to create a homeland is not a legitimate national aspiration."

I'm glad to see that “ct? apparently finally opposes the actions of the Israeli state.
 

Comment

Contrary to what the Palesti-Nazi buffoon Steven Argue would have you believe, I've been against ethnic cleansing and genocide by both sides way before I began posting comments to the other thread on this site, "Lee Kaplan Exposed". This Argue idiot had never known me or my writings before I started participating in that thread.

I was referring to Palestinian executed ethnic cleansing and genocide in the sentence Argue quotes.

I suggest to whoever is appalled by my dubbing Argue a Palesti-Nazi to read how he slammed me as a ZioNazi before my exchange with him in the other thread ended.
 

Killing Jewish Kids for Peace

The failed Intifada (Arabic for KILLING JEWS) has not brought about the advent of peace, but rather death and destruction for both palestinians and Israelis.
Intifada (Arabic for BLOODY MURDER) is not a reasonable alternative for PEACE negotiations!
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Just a thought wants to know...
"why don't you clear up what you think instead of ignoring the main questions that i've posted."

I realize that you and I have different views, and nothing I type will sway your opinion of the situation. I went to bed last night (and slept well, thank you) rather than continue this flame war... You want compromise, there you go. Also, this is not the forum (comments) I choose to endlessly extrapolate my views about the Middle East conflict. It does get tiresome. In the future look for more reports and interviews (such as the one above) on this site from me.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Im glad you slept well Vinny but not sure what a flame war is. I will keep my eyes open for more reports and perhaps more balance. I never intended to change your views or have you change mine but simply to open your eyes to arguments that you may not have considered as I hoped you would do with me. My only concern is that it is my belief that if you publish/post an article then you should be prepared to defend its content from sensible criticism (as I hope mine has been).
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

its so easy to be critical of israel and to have sympathy for the so called palestinians its sexy and provacative and gets you in with the hippy dippy college girls but the truth is that israel is a democratic state imperfect as all are but aware and trying and the palestinians are actually only a collection of tribes and families that have no love or loyalty to each other or any other country they are true refuges of the world and even thier so called arab brothers dont really want anything to do with them so please dont put it all on israel
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

"they are true refuges of the world and even thier so called arab brothers dont really want anything to do with them so please dont put it all on israel"

Kuwait ethnically cleansed the kingdom of palestinians in 1992. Jordan massacred them (20,000 Black September) israel is the only nation to ever offer them peace. Their arab brothers have kept them in "camps" since 1948 as pawns in their obscene game...
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

...israel is the only nation to ever offer them peace...

No. "Peace" on Israel's terms isn't really peace at all, is it? The Class x Race subjugation you're calling "peace" is possibly a worse fate than even what they're facing now.
 

RCNV parroting the party line

Jake writes: "You may remember an incident in Gaza city a couple years ago when Israel dropped a one ton bomb on a 9 story apartment building? They killed a couple militants and 9 children along with a couple more adult civilians."

BECKY: Funny you should bring this case up to show how BRUTAL the Israelis are. Note how the man was TORTURED by Hamas into giving his confession. Then arrested. then lynched.

www.rantburg.com/popArticle.asp

Israel accidentally killed those people and children. I think they should have waited for a better time to get him when there weren't as many civilians around. But he was purposefully hiding himself among a lot of civilians and children to forestall any IDF attempt on his life. Look it up. That is a war crime.

Not a war crime Jake would be able to discern. But hopefully to some readers here, it will seem logical and obvious.

As for Jake's "couple militants," let's look at who the IDF killed: Salah Shehade

Here are just two among hundreds of attacks against Israelis that Shehade was involved with: An attack at a religious school in a settlement in Gaza in March '02 that left five Israeli students dead.

Yes, that's five children who were not accidentally killed, but purposely targeted.

An attack on an Israeli outpost in January '02 in which four soldiers were killed. Shehade saw it as a mark of honor for Palestinian youths, willing to volunteer for suicide attacks. He supported them fully in this path, and even established a "youth wing" within Hamas that provided military education and training for youths preparing for suicide missions. Shehade also provided the principles for the religious approval for using women and young girls as suicide terrorists.

On July 23, 2002, Israeli forces killed Salah Shehade when they bombed his house in Gaza City.

So this is the BEST EXAMPLE Jake can come up with to show how brutal the IDF is? An example that involves Palestinian torture of a Palestinian, execution, and lynching? An example in which the IDF execute a known mass murderer who was planning new attacks?

Its horrible that those kids got killed in that apartment building. The IDF was trying to stop a killer, not pile up the bodies. Shehade was piling the dead bodies of Jews up as high as he could. And Hamas is still doing it.
 

More on the insignificant target Jake brought up

Jake: Was Shehada a mass murderer planning more murders? Or was he one of a "couple militants"as you said?
For an extensive article on Salah Shehada from Pravda go to:

english.pravda.ru/columnists/2002/07/29/33392.html

You start to understand why Israel wanted to take this guy out so bad. Why would Jake only have us look at the 9 dead children devoid of almost any other information about the incident other than Israel was to blame? Or any other information about the guy the IDF was targeting?

And Jake KNOWS so much more than we do because he sleeps, eats, and works with Palestinians in Palestinian towns?

Jake, when was the last time there was an honor killing in the town you live in?

Jake, do you know any openly gay Palestinians in the town you are in?

Jake, why did the Palestinians vote for their president in 1996 to a five year term, and now they are only now (2005) holding their next election?

Jake, in 1948, when you say the Israelis were busy driving indigenous Palestinians off of their land, or at least 78% of it, did you FORGET to mention they were BEING ATTACKED by Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Libya? Must have been SUPER JEWS to be able to drive out 650,000 Arabs at gunpoint AND at the same time, defend themselves against 8 foreign armies while outnumbered 10 to 1 and poorly armed.

But if your historian tells it that way, it must be true, right? Would they lie??

Pretty good trick.
 

A point about 1948

Actually, the Arab armies involved in the war of 1948 did not outnumber the proto-Israeli army. The Haganah (the armed wing of the Jewish Yishuv settler government in Palestine) and several extremist militias (such as the Stern Gang and Lehi- both of which were headed by subsequent Israeli Prime Ministers) combined to form a Zionist fighting force which in fact outnumbered the Arab armies 10 to 1.

You have your facts backwards Becky. The most respected historians of 1948 and the Palestinian Nakba (Catastrophe) have noted this. Read Nur Masalha (palestinian) and Benny Morris (Israeli) for starters. If you finish their collective works, I will give you more.

You won't find any justification for Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians from me. 9 children is never worth the price of one fighter (wether a Palestinian militant or an Israeli soldier). I think we should all completely and utterly reject the racist premise of relative humanity on which you base your argument.

And yes, I know gay Palestinians and I have spoken to them about being gay and what it is like being gay in Palestine. Have you ever spoken to a gay Palestinian?

And to "Just a Thought," I have many Israeli friends and Jewish friends from around the world who have come to visit me here. I know several Israelis who work in Beit Sahour regularly and I know several other Jews who live here permanently. Maybe if you tried to overcome your fear for one second you would see that the situation here is actually very different than you believe it to be. So my invitation still stands:

stop pontificating from your computer and come visit Palestine to see for yourself.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Jake, you've started again..why make this personal all the time...and assume that I don't know the situation? Seeing as I believe the situation to be a very difficult one for the Palestinian people tell me how its very different.

The gay Palestinians I have heard of are the ones that fled Gaza to Israel and are now touring Europe to share their experiances since the Palestinian population is not accepting is it? Don't make out like its an equal society where women, homesexuals and the mentally ill are treated with even half the respect they get in the West and in Israel. Let's not forget Hamas' use of children with serious learning difficulties to smuggle weapons. There is an interesting charity which works with women who have fled Palestinian homes after marrying a man who they throught believes in the same equality they did but found the reality to be very different.

Finally Jake you started this post with an outright lie. It's simply not true to suggest for one second that the Israeli's who were defending the State of Israel (when the surrounding countries declared war on them) had a larger army...how could they have done when the surrounding Arab countries were so much larger (and still are) and had so many more resources, including weapons.

This is an interesting passage from a BRITISH police report in April 1948 from Haifa:
"An appeal has been made to the Arabs by the Jews to reopen their shops and businesses in order to relieve the difficulties of feeding the Arab population. Evacuation was still going on yesterday and several trips were made by 'Z' craft to Acre. Roads too, were crowded with people leaving Haifa with all their belongings. At a meeting yesterday afternoon Arab leaders reiterated their determination to evacuate the entire Arab population and they have been given the loan of ten 3-ton military trucks as from this morning to assist the evacuation."

The least you owe people is the respect to tell them the truth, opinions are one thing but I dont think we can get anywhere following Mr Said and saying facts don't matter only opinions, somethings are fact and this is one of them!
 

Thank you to the peacemakers

Enough of this banal shit. There are thousands of people who can back me up and who have done it and are doing it. The history books are full of real facts, let's not duplicate their efforts. In order to move ahead we need to move away from the Zionist historiography and the transmission of information from centers of power.

We all really need to reach out to alternative sources of information. That is why it is so important to hear from the Israeli refuseniks such as Noam and Shimri and the Post-Zionist movement in Israel. That is why it is so important to hear from the Palestinian left. And that is why it is so importnat to hear from the joint Israeli-Palestinian movement which together is working nonviolently to end the occupation. Thank you to George, Vinny and the thousands of others who are giving these voices a mic.

Only they can really bring us where we need to be. Only they can realize the vision of the above mentioned Edward Said who wrote more than 4 years ago that the time had come to realize that "there is no other way than to begin to truly talk of a future where Israelis and Palestinians, two communities of suffering, can begin to share the land that has thrust them together."

Those people who choose to deny the awful reality of the occupation and the continued colonial attack upon the very roots of Palestinian society are doing all of us (including Israelis) a great diservice. This repetitive and racist bullshit can only extend the occupation and the suffering on both sides.

If all of us pundits shut the fuck up and let the Israeli-Palestinian peace movement speak, we will hear that they are telling us a very simple message:

Help us take down the settlements, destroy the Wall, and return the Israeli army to Israel proper and together we'll stop the terrorist attacks. From there we can re-visit our bloody history and begin to live together as equals.

Until then, you'll have to live with the consequences of occupation, colonialism and Apartheid.

From Occupied Palestine- I'm out.

salaamat.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Its very useful to end a thread by disregarding all sources of information which don't agree with you Jake. Using inflamotary language and putting words in peoples mouths help no-one, im part of the Israeli peace movement but even in that movement there are differences of opinion.

You list three demands from Israel and then "together we'll stop the terrorist attacks" is there no need for any action from the PA and Palestinian people? What about media reform, what about throwing out the old textbooks, what about sorting out corruption and the security services? This is a two way process and people like Jake must begin to realise that! Luckily I think Abbas knows this and I hope his approach is more balanced then Jake's.
 

Comments about Jake's points

1. Arab fighters outnumbering Jews 10 to 1:

"Actually, the Arab armies involved in the war of 1948 did not outnumber the proto-Israeli army. The Haganah (the armed wing of the Jewish Yishuv settler government in Palestine) and several extremist militias (such as the Stern Gang and Lehi- both of which were headed by subsequent Israeli Prime Ministers) combined to form a Zionist fighting force which in fact outnumbered the Arab armies 10 to 1... The most respected historians of 1948 and the Palestinian Nakba have noted this. Read Nur Masalha (palestinian) and Benny Morris (Israeli) for starters. "

Well, what interest does Nur Masalha have being impartial? Benny Morris had also engaged in shoddy research in the past.

Conversely, there are far more accurate figures provided by sources trusted by both Zionists and non-Zionists that refute both Masalha and Morris' (earlier?) estimates of the Arab and Jewish fighting forces' strengths on the eve of Israeli independence.

Estimates propagated by both impartial and Zionist sources relates the following figures:

Egyptian armed forces: 300,000
Jordanian armed forces: 60,000
Syrian armed forces: 300,000
Iraqi armed forces 10,000 (in Israel)
Lebanese armed forces: ???
Palestinian Arab fighters: 50,000
Israeli fighters: 140,000

(See palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_course.php
www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/israel1948.htm)

Another reliable source, The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Middle East Conflict," by Mitchell Bard, Ph.D. (Alpha Books -- Macmillan USA), says:

"At the time of the invasion, the five Arab armies, despite their large populations, were composed of only 80,000 men...The Haganah had 60,000 trained fighters, a third of whom had combat experience, but on May 12, only 18,900 Jewish soldiers were fully armed and prepared for war...On May 28, the Sternists formally disbanded as 850 of its fighters marched together to join the Tzahal." (the IDF)

Note that Dr. Mitchell Bard omitted to mention the contingents sent by Saudi Arabia and other countries allied with the Arab League.

The number of armed Irgun members was obviously smaller than the Haganah's 18,900 and Stern Gang's armed ranks were even smaller. So, in mid May 1948 the Zionist fighters didn't even total 50,000.

Additionally, both Irgun and Stern Gang were much smaller in membership than Haganah and Stern Gang was smaller than Irgun in the same respect.

Keep in mind also the armament picture:
the invading Arab forces were fully equipped with the standard weapons of a regular army of the time -- artillery, tanks, armored cars and personnel carriers, in addition to machine guns, mortars and the usual small arms in great quantities, and full supplies of ammunition, oil, and gasoline. Egypt, Iraq and Syria had air forces. As sovereign states, they had no difficulty in securing whatever armaments they needed through normal channels from Britain and other friendly powers. The pre-State Jewish forces, on the contrary, had been prevented from acquiring arms by the British and so had no matching artillery, no tanks, and no warplanes in the first days of the war.

In summary, even if we accepted that the Arab fighters' ranks never swelled above 80,000 at their peak and the Zionist fighters totaled up to 140,000 at one point, they would have outnumbered the Arab fighters only by a 1.75 ratio and were would be very inferior in equipment.


2. Gay Palestinians Jake knows or heard of:

Jake isn't telling anyone here how their Palestinian environment has treated them. Quelle surprise?

In any event, hopefully Jake wouldn't expect anyone to believe gays are treated better by Palestinians than by the State of Israel.


3. Israelis supposedly living in Beit Sahour:

Having lived in Israel for years, I have a tiny bit of trouble believing that many of Jake's Jewish and Israeli friends have come to visit him in Beit Sahour or other PA governed locations (or even B Areas). Furthermore, the Israelis "living here" which he's aludding to are Jewish residents living of the area, or settlers as they're commonly called who don't live in Beit Sahour itself at any rate. No other Jews live in that region.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Misnomer "critical thinker" finally comes up with a Zionist source that is not misnamed, "The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Middle East Conflict."
 

Tell a big lie and keep repeating it

Thanks to Critical Thinker and Just a thought for gathering that information. Let me point out that if you take CT's initial number of 50,000 Israeli fighters on May 15, 1948 and add up all the BARD figures given for a total of 720,000 the 10:1 ratio sometimes given does have some credence. I'm not sure at all where Jake is getting his numbers from, unless its those fine "historians" he puts so much credence in.

Jake claims he is a peacemaker, but he has yet to condemn the warfare tactics his hosts employ. Does he support the use of suicide bombers? Does he regret that Israel's security fence has saved lives? Not a word from Jake about Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, honor killings, hate speech in Palestinian schoolbooks, hate speech from the Imam's in the mosques, or how many times the Palestinian leaders have turned down a plan to create an independent Palestinian State. No, Jake doesn't want us to concern ourselves with these issues either.

His mission is to villify Israel. And as long as he keeps doing this, his hosts will be ever so kind to him.
 

The Truth about Arab Refugees in 1948

Jake: I know you are very young. And I know you have been spoonfed the RCNV anti-Israel point of view. So I can forgive your belief that you know so much more than those of us who are older, have read more from a lot of varying sources, and are less likely to be taken in by a sole school of thought.

Please consider the work of the following Israeli historian who has as many credentials as Edward Said or Dr. Stephen Zunes regarding issues relating to the history of Israel, Palestine, and the mideast.

The link below goes to an article I wrote simply to present the work of David Meir-Levi. He has a myriad of footnotes at the end of the piece to document the claims he makes throughout.

If you can find ANY errors or serious ommissions in this article, please come back here and post for us what is innaccurate and show us the refuting evidence. --- Becky

santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/10895
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Becky Johnson is upset about some "hate speech" she heard about in Zionist propaganda. What about Becky Johnson's anti-Palestinian hate speech?

While anti-Zionists oppose a government and its actions, people who are anti-Palestinian are by definition chauvinistic racists against an entire people.
 

Arab Refuseniks Speak Out Refuse NOT to kill Jews

There is NO Arab peace movement. Too bad....
 

Wrong

The buffoon Argue claims: "people who are anti-Palestinian are by definition chauvinistic racists against an entire people"

Not necessarily. Some of them may object solely to Palestinian nationalism (without feeling irrational hatred for Palestinians), just as the non-antisemitic anti-Zionists object to Jewish nationalism but don't harbor racist hatred for Israeli or Jewish people as such.

As for Palestinian hate speech the above anti-Zionist clown is intent on not recognizing, I guess reality is Zionist propaganda.
 

Peace and Liberation

"Ali" says there is no Arab peace movement. This is not true. There were massive protests across the Arab world prior to the U.S. aggression against Iraq.

As for a Palestinian peace movement, the question is not relevant because it is the Israeli and Jordanian governments that are the oppressors and Palestinians are the oppressed. As such the struggle for the Palestinian people is not for peace, but for liberation.

A liberation movement that includes Palestinians and Hebrew speakers does exist. Here are some links to some of their web sites (I do not endorse the political line or actions of all of these organizations):

Socialist Struggle (Ma'avak Sotsyalisti)
www.maavak.org.il/maavak/index.php

Arab Movement for Change (Ta'al)
www.a-m-c.org/

One People (Am Ehad)
www.am1.org.il/

Communist Party of Israel (Miflagah ha-Komunistit ha-Yisre'elit / al-Hizb al-Shuyu'i al-Isra'ili, MAKI)
www.maki.org.il/

Democratic Front for Peace and Equality (Hazit Demokratit le-Shalom ule-Shivyon / Jabhah al-Dimuqratiyah lil Salam wal
www.hadash.org.il/english.html

In Defence of Marxism
marxist.back.to/

Israeli Communist Forum
www.icf.org.il/

National Democratic Assembly (Tajammu' al-Watani al-Dimuqrati, NDA/Balad)
www.balad.org/

Organization for Democratic Action (Munazzamat al-'Amal al-Dimuqrati, ODA/Da'am)
www.odaction.org/

Sons of the Country Movement (Harakat Abna' al-Balad)
www.abnaa-elbalad.org/

Spark (Iskra)
www.israel.marxist.com/

Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (Jabhah al-Dimuqratiyah li-Tahrir Filastin, DFLP) periodical Al-Hu
www.alhourriah.org/dflp_e.asp

(Palestine) Palestine Liberation Organization (Munazzamat al-Tahrir al-Filastiniyah, PLO)
www.nad-plo.org/

Palestine National Liberation Movement (Harakat al-Tahrir al-Watani al-Filastini, Al-Fatah)
www.alkrama.com/

Palestinian Democratic Coalition ( Tajammu' al-Dimuqrati al-Filastini)
www.tajamou.org/

Palestinian People's Party (Hizb al-Sha'b al-Filastini, PPP)
www.palpeople.org/index.aspx

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (Jabhah al-Sha'biyah li-Tahrir Filastin, PFLP)
www.pflp.net/
 

Arab War Movement

" "Ali" says there is no Arab peace movement. This is not true. There were massive protests across the Arab world prior to the U.S. aggression against Iraq."

LOL!!! Now the Arab peace movement is busy blowing up Americans AND Arabs...thanks for playing...
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

The anti-Arab racist says their name is, "Arab Nazis for Peace," and further claims, "The Arab peace movement is busy blowing up Americans AND Arabs."

Yet the racist fails to understand that peace in Iraq has become impossible due to the Anglo-American aggression and occupation. The struggle in Iraq is now one for liberation from imperialist control. As such, all foreign troops and Iraqi collaborators are legitimate targets in the struggle for Iraq's sovereignty.

Iraq to the Iraqis! U.S. Out Now!
 

The Zionist Movement Supported Hitler

The anti-Arab racist now re-posts the absurd Zionist propaganda entitled, "Nazi Roots of Palestinian Nationalism."

Of course the real roots of Palestinian nationalism are in the Zionist Israeli settler state occupying and eliminating the Palestinian homeland through terror and racist discrimination.

For the alliance between Nazi Germany and those who created the racist Zionist government, please read:

The Zionist Movement Supported Hitler
By Steven Argue

santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/13886
 

Fuck 'em, Steven!

To anyone who hasn't already been sucked into the zionist mind-warp, the arguments of maniacs like CT and "Just a thought" virtually refute themselves! I mean these guys are SO devoid of empathy. What the Israeli jackboots do with bullets to kids throwing rocks, these two TRY to do with words and meaning to anyone who challenges their personal taste in propaganda. Personally, I picture them sitting at the bar in a seedy little bistro in Vichy France, stiff in their starched SS uniforms, totally fucked up on Absinthe, screaming Hitler's latest into the face of anyone who even looks at them. i.e. stupid drunk on their own bullshit, and just as dangerous.

As for those who HAVE been sucked into the zionist mind-warp, forget them. It's like trying to preach agnosticism to a cult member.
 

Anti-terror not anti-Palestinian

Who are the terrorists? Steve Argue would say that the Israeli government is the terrorist. The Israeli people would say that Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, the PLO, Islamic Jihad, and any of a dozen other Palestinian terror groups are the terrorists.

So what do peace advocates in Santa Cruz say?

If you are truly an advocate for peace, then you advocate based on the following criteria:

1) Violence is only justified in the cases of self-defense or the defense of others.

2) Violence should only be used as a last resort.

3) Without justice, there can be no peace

If you look at the history and behavior of the Palestinian people and the Israeli people, you will find that in Israel, they greet each other by saying "Shalom" which means Peace in Hebrew.

Among the Palestinians, the highest honor is to be a (dead)martyr for the cause of Jihad. The word Sa'laam which is often translated as meaning peace actually means surrender to Allah, so it is not in any way intended as meaning peace to Jews or Christians.

In Judaism, any of its 613 laws can be broken to save a life, since life has the highest value.

The Palestinians encourage their own children to throw rocks at tanks, and to strap on explosives and commit suicide in order to kill Jewish civilians.

Terrorists maim and kill. They never "accidently" kill civilians. But their bigger purpose is to shock and scare a much larger population into some sort of political concession. Terror is no different than holding a gun up to a bank teller's head and saying "Give me all your money." No more noble. No more moral. It is wrong to extort cooperation from a person or a people.

Now Steve will only point at Israel's well-trained and armed IDF forces, and its apparent possession of nuclear weapons as evidence that Israel is "extorting" concessions from the Palestinians.

Look back up to 1) violence is justified in self-defense and the defense of others. If Israel wasn't armed to the teeth, do you really think the Arabs would allow them to continue to live peacably behind the green line? Before much of the security fence went in, the IDF was repelling an average of 21 terror attacks or attempted attacks a day. So Israel's self-defense claim is substantiated. Does anyone here think that Israel is NOT being attacked 21 times a day?

Am I anti-Palestinian for speaking out against the use of terror? Am I anti-Palestinian for saying people shouldn't get their kids to fight their battles for them? Am I anti-Palestinian if I think they should have an election every five years for a five-year term?

Am I anti-Palestinian if I say that the Jewish people have a right to the land of Israel. A land they have had a continuous presence on for the past 3,300 years?

Am I anti-Palestinian if I have grave doubts about Steve Argue's proposal for a secular democratic state since it would be run by the same people who brought you the Palestinian Authority? Wouldn't it likely bring the same results -- desparate economy, violent and dangerous, widespread corruption, lack of rights for women and gays, run by leaders who get "elected" once and then stay in office until they die?

If I simply look at the basic living conditions for the Palestinian people--- the unemployment rate, what kind of housing they have, how many are homeless, what kind of health care they get, what kind of education are they getting, etc. then the sheer weight of the evidence shows that the Palestinians had it best just before Arafat signed the Oslo accords. So the best they ever had it was when Israel occupied the territories, and administered them with their own mini-Marshall plan from 1967 to 1993.

Don't take my word for it. Gentlemen, fire up your google search engines!

Peace advocates in Santa Cruz should support Israel. For Israel most closely embodies the prinicipals of using violence only as a last resort and only in self-defense. Israel grants more rights than any Arab country so Israel is fundamentally more just than Palestinian society where you are rewarded for being a mass murderer.

If you are pro-Palestinian then you should be against terror.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Becky Johnson's most useful statement, "Don't take my word for it."
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

ROTFLMAO!!!
 

Peace activists are for Peace

Peace activists are for peace. Peace from both sides. We do not support the terrorist, but we don't support the Israeli Governments attacks either.

If you were for peace you wouldn't take sides.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

I am extremely pleased that I got to comment on this wonderful radio piece by George before the (not very) professional propaganda artists started their e-vandalism here in the comments forum.

If you're new around here and have managed to read this far, please be sure to listen to the interview and decide for yourself. The young men in this interview have a lot of wisdom to share with us. They provide a distinct contrast to some of the dogmatic and oppressive attitudes expressed above.
 

Meet the new resident idiot

Steven Argue has finally outed himself in the most resounding manner while indirectly admitting there's no serious Palestinian peace movement. He's seeking "liberation", an euphemism for revolution, which in turn is an euphemism for destroying Israel and driving as many Jews out as possible. Argue even plugged Palestinian terrorist (...er...."liberation") organizations like PFLP, DFLP and PLO along with their websites, as well as those of their Israeli collaborators. Then, true to his propagandistic inclinations, he repeats the slander that the Zionist movement supported Hitler and eliminated the "Palestinian homeland", and ignores that Palestinism indeed has Nazi roots in Hajj Amin al-Husseini's zealous collaboration with, support and encouragement of the Nazi movement and its extermination machine.

And then he is followed up by FtN's nonsense.

Did I refute myself because I'm allegedly "devoid of empathy", FtN? Why didn't you try pointing out where I supposedly refuted myself? You settled for the imagery your fertile and rather sick imagination could conjure up as you're unable to challenge the data I furnished and the assertions I based on them. Seems like truth in bountiful doses hurts you. To you evidently I must be spewing propaganda if I don't accept your pro-Palestinian line hook, line and sinker.

Anyone like the Israeli officer who took the law into their hands and murdered the 13 yr. old Gazan girl in cold blood needs to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. But alas to you and your likes, this sort of excessive use of force is the exception, not the rule. The days where duly protected Israeli soldiers would shoot rock throwing kids are long gone. I would only support shooting such kids in the few situations where soldiers happen to be unprotected and their life is in clear danger (e.g. being on foot patrol with no helmet and/or vest to don).

It's always easy to foam at the mouth when you can't refute your opponent's arguments, eh FtN? Your arguments are l--a--m--e.
 

Confusion regarding the word "salaam"

Becky Johnson mixed up the meanings of the words Islam and salaam. It's the former that means submission to Allah's will. The latter means peace. Dictionaries should verify my claim.
 

Is this Zionism?

If the views espoused by "Critical Thinker," "becky Johnson" and "Just a Thought" on this post are Zionist, then I understand why so many people around the world are proud to call themselves Anti-Zionist.

"Becky Johnson" legitimizes Israel's use of illegal extra-judicial assassinations, even when civilians are killed. I have no argument here, just wanted to point that out.

For a comprehensive report on Israel's use of extra-judicial assasinations see www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/2005/killing7.htm.

In general, I hope we can all agree that it is best to ally ourselves with human rights, international law and respect for humanity. If that means we are anti-Zionist, then so be it.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

I can't understand why someone who doesn't agree with Pro-Palestinian line must have been brainwashed and must be spewing up propoganda. I really hope that im exempt from the term 'professional propoganda artist' because maybe im just putting across my view point and on this self-proclaimed independent website isn't the range of opinions a positive thing and isn't my right to speak every bit as valid as Jake or Steve?

This thread has degenrated into personal abuse against people who support Israel...how dare FtN draw compare me to a Nazi when all of i've done is consistently advocate peace, said that there are two sides to the situation and most of all repeated again and AGAIN that personal abuse isn't necessary and isn't helpful. If you can't think of anything to say then don't say anything!

FtN tell me why i'm devoid of empathy but first read my posts. I'd love it if you attempted to challenge me on the facts, opinions and arguments which have been posted and not on simply resort to childish personal attacks.

Having got that out of the way...Zionist/Nazi collabortion is a myth propogated by the same people who gave us Holocaust denial. It is taking one fact out of context and twisting it every which way to form an argument. The only dialogue between Nazi's and Zionists was the one about how to get Jews out of Germany to save their lives. By the way its a shame other nations didn't do half as much to help and left it up brave individuals to save people.

Steve how academicaly sound is it to post a link to your own article? Not very and even less when your article is so awful it is simply beyond belief. You should be ashamed of yourself for writing it...if we excuse the lies, mistruths and constant twisting of facts (such as taking Ben-Gurion's quote COMPLETLY out of context) then we are left with a rant which includes as many of your political agende's as possible including a quick and irrelevant dig at capitalism! The details in your article are not worth responding but the main argument of blaming the Zionists for the holocaust is astounding. Maybe start by blaming the Nazi's, then move on to the silence of the Church/the allies/Hitler's allies/large elements of Eastern Europe. Then when shifting the focus back on to Germany don't forget then Mufti of Jerusalem and his famous quote; "G-d in heaven, Hitler on earth." You waste a whole paragraph working on the misconceptions that
A) Zionists had the means and knowledge to destroy the Nazi infrastrucre
B) They chose not to for the reasons you suggest and not because they were not prepared to kill the people in the camps by bombing them (which was an allied plan).
C) This is my favourite bit because you say they were going to drop ammunitions to the people in Aushwitz...are you aware of the average life expectancy in Aushwitz...about 6 minutes. How do you expect people who barely had the strength to stand to fight against fully armed soldiers and you're assuming they would have got the weapons.

Finally Steve you start your article by saing that "Hitler seized power in 1933 with a clear fascistic program that called for the annihilation of all socialists, communists, labor
leaders, and Jews." You've done very well to decide on the outcome of an enourmous historical deabte about the nature of the Holoucast in one line. Can you maybe explain to everyone in another article or in a post why it is that it was so clear and where the weaknesses of cumilitave radicalisation lie? Please just because you think some people with zero knowledge might read your article and believe it you should still have enough self respect to do the proper research before writing it!

This begin as a discussion on the situation in the Middle East but certain individuals, Steve for one, have done very well to shift the focus and hide the flaws in their arguments. Lets try to stay on track because there are many many questions still to be answered many which I have raised.
 

Why hadn't the Palestinian Authority addressed the problem?

"Human Rights" complains about "extra-judicial assassinations", yet he seems to have found no problem with the PA's refusal to arrest those assassinated terrorists, put them on a real trial so that the courts would sentence them to long prison terms, and to continuously crack down on Palestinian terrorists and their infrastructure. But then again, the PA has not only encouraged, financed and sponsored terror, it also engaged in it itself through the Palestinian Police (many of whose members have been simultaneously Hamasnikls and so forth) and Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.

Aside from omitting the terrorist nature of the aggressive acts by organizations like Hamas, al-Aqda and the rest, the Palestinian webpage "Human rights" clipped omits the Israeli citizens (including non-Jews) and other non-combatants targetted by the field-terrorists who had taken orders from the "political" leaders the IDF assassinated. It also seems to imply that planners and perpetrators of attacks against soldiers should enjoy immunity from reprisals and carry out their activities with impunity. That's an insult to the intelligence.

Furthermore, that webpage would have you believe Israel never attempts to apprehend the terrorists whom the PA refuses to arrest and invariably assassinates only those terrorists who are too risky to nab with military/police personnel disguised in Arab attire.

The Palestinian webpage also fails to mention the press briefings and interviews made by Israeli spokespeople who explain why this or that Palestinian was targetted for assassination.

And since so many terrorists, leaders or otherwise, purposely surround themselves with non-combatants or make a point of stayed in the proximity of so many non-combatants, there's no wonder some bystanders get hurt when the terrorists themselves are targetted. The alternative for Israel is to let these terrorists keep going about their activities causing more bloodshed and destruction, which "Human Rights" seems rather indifferent to.

Additionally, the nomenclature used by such websites is designed to entrap unsuspecting Western readers into believing there's a substantial difference between political or spiritual leaders and the "military wing". How many anti-Zionists would be willing to make the same distinction for Begin and Shamir or even Sharon whom they simply brand terrorists?

The post by "Human Rights" is yet another demonstration of the hypocrisy of those anti-Zionists selectively advocating or invoking human rights, or at best paying these lofty principles lip service. They usually disregard the transgressions against int'l law and human right, not to mention respect for humanity by the PA and the Palestinian terrorist organizations, some of which have even been slammed by Amnesty Int'l.

Unfortunately, all those people throughout the globe who express the opinions that "Human Rights" articulates here haven't gotten all the facts and/or their views are afflicted by hypocrisy.
 

Re: Why hadn't the Palestinian Authority

Amnesty International has in fact taken many principled stands on Human Rights in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Thank you "Critical Thinker" for drawing our attention to that.

For those that are interested, there are 10 pages of reports and press releases on the Amnesty website. The vast majority completely contradict what "Critical Thinker," "Becky Johnson" and "Just A Thought" have posted on this site. Check out Amnesty at:

web.amnesty.org/library/eng-isr/index

Or, if you prefer a Palestinian source, The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights has gained international respect for reporting on both Israeli human rights violations and Palestinian violations of law and democratic conduct:

_www.pchrgaza.org

Or, if youprefer an Israeli Source, B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, also reports on both Israeli and Palestinian violations of human rights and international law:

_www.btselem.org

It is no mistake that the vast majority of information released by all three of these internationally respected organizations cite Israeli occupying forces as the main usurpers of human rights and international law. But people should take a look and make up their own mind, don't you all agree?
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Interesting choice of Israeli source...typical of Israeli opinions on the matter? I don't think so. Come on people reading this aren't stupid.

What is interesting is that Human Rights has taken us full circle and we're back to the original point I made...in Israel groups like btselem are allowed to exist but where is the equivelent amongst the Palestinian people? Jake blames it on our ignorance of society but still doesn't explain why these groups don't exist... maybe he or Human Rights can explain it because it seems to be either

1) The entire Palestinian people agree with the use of terrorism against civilians and feel that the terrorists are free from blame in this situation.

2) They don't agree with the use of terrorism but aren't able to say anything for some reason.

Which is it?
 

Problematic record of human rights organizations

Let the readership be aware that the three human rights organizations cited by "Human Rights" (among others) have engaged in different types of faulty reporting about Palestinian human rights abuses that call their credibility into question.

I've already addressed problems with a report by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. There are compelling reasons to suspect its pro-Palestinian bias considerably mars its other reports similarly or worse.

Amnesty International also has been shown to have a somewhat questionable record. This is manifested in its occasional underreporting of some Palestinian violations and in a certain tendency to level trumped up charges at Israel. Some examples are as follows:

camera.org/index.asp
www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Jenin_Again!$.asp
www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Children_Under_Fire.asp

Next, Btselem's reporting has also been plagued by several problems like defining very loosely the meaning of an innocent Palestinian civilian or taking the Palestinian side, as seen from one contention by a member, Ya'el Stein: "The attacks must be stopped because of the large number of bystanders being hit." (www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/6675041.htm)

** For much worse and even more telling examples, see
www.camera.org/index.asp
www.camera.org/index.asp
www.camera.org/index.asp


In light of such problems with reports by those three organizations, readers should be cautious, especially reading reports authored by Palestinian organizations, and cross-check them with official Israeli sources.
 

Revolutionary Socialism Versus Zionism In The Fight against Hitler

The Zionist misnamed, “Just A Thought? (from here on referred to as “JAT?) thinks they are pointing out a weakness in the following quote:

JAT writes, “Finally Steve you start your article by saing [sic] that "Hitler seized power in 1933 with a clear fascistic program that called for the annihilation of all socialists, communists, labor
leaders, and Jews." You've done very well to decide on the outcome of an enourmous [sic] historical deabte [sic] about the nature of the Holoucast [sic] in one line. Can you maybe explain to everyone in another article or in a post why it is that it was so clear and where the weaknesses of cumilitave [sic] radicalisation [sic] lie? Please just because you think some people with zero knowledge might read your article and believe it you should still have enough self respect to do the proper research before writing it!?

Just because “JAT? has zero knowledge of the clear program that brought Hitler to power, does not mean that all are unaware of this important history. Likewise it does not mean that I have not done the proper research. Yet “JAT? insists I spell things out.

In 1932, before Hitler had taken power Leon Trotsky wrote of the situation in Germany:

“The system based on bureaucratic decrees is unstable, unreliable, temporary. Capitalism requires another, more decisive policy. The support of the Social Democrats, keeping a suspicious watch on their own workers, is not only insufficient for its purposes, but has already become irksome. The period of halfway measures has passed. In order to try to find a way out, the bourgeoisie must absolutely rid itself of the pressure exerted by the workers’ organizations; these must be eliminated, destroyed, utterly crushed.

“At this juncture, the historic role of fascism begins. It raises to their feet those classes that are immediately above the proletariat and that are ever in dread of being forced down into its ranks; it organizes and militarizes them at the expense of finance capital, under the cover of the official government, and it directs them to the extirpation of proletarian organizations, from the most revolutionary to the most conservative.

“Fascism is not merely a system of reprisals, of brutal force, and of police terror. Fascism is a particular governmental system based on the uprooting of all elements of proletarian democracy within bourgeois society. The task of fascism lies not only in destroying the Communist vanguard but in holding the entire class in a state of forced disunity. To this end the physical annihilation of the most revolutionary section of the workers does not suffice. It is also necessary to smash all independent and voluntary organizations, to demolish all the defensive bulwarks of the proletariat, and to uproot whatever has been achieved during three-quarters of a century by the Social Democracy and the trade unions.? (Vital Questions For The Germ Proletariat January 27, 1932) marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/index.htm

In another work by Trotsky before Hitler took power Trotsky wrote:

"Fascism has opened up the depths of society for politics.
Today, not only in peasant homes but also in the city skyscrapers,
there lives alongside of the 20th century the 10th or 13th. A hundred
million people use electricity and still believe in the magic power
of signs and exorcisms. What inexhaustible reserves they possess of
darkness, ignorance, and savagery! Despair has raised them to their
feet, fascism has given them a banner. Everything that should have
been eliminated from the national organism in the course of the
unhindered development of society comes out today gushing from the
throat: capitalist society is puking up the undigested barbarism.
Such is the physiology of National Socialism...Fascism has become a
real danger as an acute expression of the helpless position of the
bourgeois regime, the conservative role of the Social Democracy in
this regime, and the accumulated powerlessness of the Communist Party
to abolish it... Worker-communists, you are hundreds of thousands,
millions; you cannot leave for anywhere; there are not enough
passports for you. Should fascism come to power, it will ride over
your skulls and spines like a terrific tank. Your salvation lies in
merciless struggle. And only a fighting unity with the Social
Democratic workers can bring victory."

It seems that with Trotsky's historic and class analysis of society he had no trouble disserning the threat posed by Hitler.

Compare this revolutionary socialist position of Leon Trotsky to the role played by the Zionist movement. Here is my full quote that “JAT’ chose to attempt to attack:

“Hitler seized power in 1933 with a clear fascistic program that
called for the annihilation of all socialists, communists, labor
leaders, and Jews. Despite this fact the Zionist Federation of
Germany sent the Nazi Party a memorandum on June 21, 1933 stating: "…a
rebirth of national life such as is occurring in German life … must
also take place in the Jewish national group. On the foundation of
the new [Nazi] state, which has established itself on the principle of
race, we wish to fit our community into the total structure so that
for us, too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the
Fatherland is possible…." (Brenner, Zionism, pg. 48).

?The policy of supporting Hitler was later upheld at the World
Zionist Organization Congress in 1933 where a motion to take action
against Hitler was defeated 240 to 43. Thus the Jewish boycott of the
German economy at a time of economic weakness and vulnerability was
broken with the World Zionist Organization's Anglo Palestine Bank
resuming trade. In fact the World Zionist Organization became the
principal distributors of Nazi goods in Northern Europe and the Middle
East. (Ralph Schoeneman, The Hidden History of Zionism)
 

I Love Nazis!

Steve talks about Nazi Germany in 1933...blah blah blah..by 1938, the German Nazis made their intentiosn regarding the Jews clear at the Evian Conference...by that time, Arabs from "Palestine" also joined Adolph's quest...once the orgy of death actually started, negotiations ended and the murders began...gleeful participants were Arabs in the Middle East, and Moslems in Bosnia and Albania...
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

So the Zionist here is claiming that the origins of Palestinian nationalism are in Nazism. This is absurd. Of course the real roots of Palestinian nationalism are in the Zionist Israeli settler state occupying and eliminating the Palestinian homeland through terror and racist discrimination.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Steve Argue says:
"As such, all foreign troops and Iraqi collaborators are legitimate targets in the struggle for Iraq's sovereignty."

So you support the murder of Iraqi communists?

www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11865426%255E1702,00.html

Why wouldn't you be supportive of elections in Iraq? For the same reasons you don't support free elections in Cuba? Do you have some Sunni connections?
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Everyone be sure and tune into the next segment of Club Cruz in Santa Cruz where we discuss Steven Argue above and the other whackadoodles in Santa Cruz who run around calling themselves "peace advocates" and "anti-recists" while citing their lvoe and support for terrorist groups like the PFLP, DPFLP, Hamas, etc. etc.

Indymedia truly is a joke. A forum for degenerates and misfits who spout "anti-Zionist" slogans a la Josef Stalin and support anit-Israel movements in favor of Islamic totalitarianism.

Fact: Israel is a Western style secular democracy the same as Great Britian and the US. The only difference is it is also a refuge for the world's Jews from historical persecution. Isrel has 15 recgonized religions all with freedom of worship including Christianity and Islam. The Ba'hais, persecuted by Moslems in Iran have their international headquarters in Tel Aviv.
Fact: The "refuseniks and Israelis who are opposed to a Zionist state are largely made up of Israel's communist party with clowns like Steven Argue and Jake. THey are divroced from reality, from the MArxist college crowd. Most have never served in the army. In the Bay Area, most refuseniks are fake Israeli expatirates like Amir Turkel who make a living off the PLO movement and never served in the West Bank. I revealed the truth about them on Isrel National News in an expose that can be heard on the Tovia Singer Show artchives on the Internet. Most "refuseniks" here never refused serving in the territories and we're never even Israeli soldiers. Theya are the equivalents of the
Jews who worked in the death camps to round up other Jews for the Nazis.
Fact: There is no genocide of Plaestiniana by ISrael. Israel provides 70% of the budget for the PA; ISrael provides water for the PA (despite the lie they steal it from them); The PLO popualtion
has increased. Israel is not a colony but a sovereign nation with most Israelis having been born in Israel; 55% of Israelis' ancestors are refugees from Arab progroms in Arab nations; The population of Arab-Israelis and Arabs in the territories has increaded exponentially since 1948 so accusations of genocide are rhtetoric. The PA constitution article 7 makes sharia law the only law of the PA, the same as the Saudi and Iranian constitutions and thus an exclusive apartheid regime like the Arab propagandists try to accuse Israel of in America's media; Peace advocates as are found in Indymedia all say peace can only be when Isrel is dismantled instead of two states side by side, hence they are really war adovcates as Israel will never capitulate willingly. The PA leadership steals foreign aid money from the Palestinian people.
Fact: The Jakes, Steven Argues, Georges and other degenerates in Santa Cruz merely spout anti-Israel communist rhetoric when their gripes are against Jews and demcoracy (while enjoying the benefits of living in democracy).

Fact: Such people are considered weirdos by the majority of a democratic educated society and only really preach to each other and the terrorist groups they endorse.

Fact: They are losing more ground every day. Even the ISM can't get recruits in the past because as A. Licoln said you can't fool all the people all the time.

Oh, yes, Steve, I support the killing of Iraqi communists when they murder US soldiers in Iraq.
You support the murder of US soldiers who rid Iraq of Saddam Hussein, one of your heroes because he hated Jews like you and wanted ISrael destroyed. Like you, Steve, Hussein was an admirerer of Josef
Stalin and his communist propaganda and tactics.

The endosrements of terrorist groups by the likes of Argue also point out his mental illness: most of those groups have murdered Jewish children as young as one yer old intentionally and specifically. Citing some children killed when the IDF tried unsuccessfully the first time to kill Yassin is specious, becasue Yassin murdered 100 children of ISraelis prior to his death and hid himself intentionally among Palestinian civilians.
Argue uses the rhetoric of these murderers to jsutify killing more Jews.

Really, now, educated people do not take Argue, Geroge or Jake seriously. These are neurotic people who want attention by being in their own minds "anti-authoritarian". They thrive on repeating the same lies found over and over on Arab dictatorship's websites attacking democratic Israel. The biggest joke about them is they are "wannabe communists" who aven't even the courage to live in the same communist or dictatorshp states they insist that other people overseas, especially Jews they say must lvie other.

And no lie is too great to facilitate that.

Watch the next Club Cruz where I expose them and what they are really about. You'll especially love the photo of the Muslim woman being prepared for stoning to death for violating sharia law. Ask yourself when you see the picture if the Jews and Christians in israel ahve something to fear from those who the Indymedia crowd work so hard to have dominance over Israel.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Sorry for the typos...basically I consider Indymedia a waste of time so don't bother to edit for typos...
Tune into Club Cruz on Santa Cruz cable every Tuesday and Thursday as we continue to expose the totalitarian cheering section of the Santa Cruz community who lie, lie, lie and promote war continually while claiming they are for "peace."
 

degenerates

Lee KKKaplan wrote:

"Fact: The Jakes, Steven Argues, Georges and other degenerates in Santa Cruz merely spout anti-Israel communist rhetoric when their gripes are against Jews and demcoracy (while enjoying the benefits of living in democracy)."

The term "degenerate" was used heavily in Nazi Germany, so it comes as little surprise to see Lee KKKaplan using the term.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Degenerate art

"In 1937, Nazi authorities purged German museums of art they considered "degenerate." They then took 650 of the works so condemned, and sent them on tour as a special exhibit of "degenerate art."

Lee KKKaplan wrote:

"...I consider Indymedia a waste of time....."

This "degenerate" indymedia reader knows that Lee KKKaplan is totally full of shit when he says that he considers indymedia a waste of time. If Lee Kaplan thought indymedia was a waste of time, then he would not spend so much time reading articles and comments and then replying to them. Lee, if you really think that indymedia is a waste of time, then go away. And get off our community television too.

Thanks to George, Jake, Vinny, Steve, Will, and everyone else working for peace and fighting for truth. Keep up the great work! Shalom!
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

http://www.dafka.org/NewsGen.asp?S=13&PageID=331

The term "degenerate" was also used extensively by your hero, Josef Stalin.

Please, don;'t go there. Those clowns you listed above are NOT fighting for peace and truth. Argue publishes a list of terrorist organizations like the PFLP and DFLP that murder children and openly state Jews should be murdered. Just how "degenerate" have you become. The term actually refers to people with no mental or moral fiber. Wikpedia is no final source.

As for your community television: do I bug you? You ain't seen nothing yet, baby. We're chanign things in Santa Cruz. We got rid of the degenerate mayor Scott Kennedy and we're going to tip off all the college kids on the hill about how you guys want war until Israel is destroyed instead of a settlement and support the enemies of America who kill our boys in Iraq.

Tune into Club Cruz every tuesday and thursday in Santa Cruz.

Maybe Indymedia isn't a waste of time...your articles and comments in here attacking me have increased our websites's exposure and gotten us donations from people to carry on our work...
take a look: www.dafka.org
 

Enemies of America

Agent Kaplan writes, "We're going to tip off all the college kids on the hill about how you guys... support the enemies of America who kill our boys in Iraq."

Since when have I said anything supporting Bush and his posse?
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Not being from Santa Cruz i've clearly got myself in the middle of some kind of turf war that I don't want to be involved in.

Steve, you and I have a very different understanding of history and historical facts. Quoting Trotsky doesn't prove a point. You can't possibly ignore the theories of cumilitive radicalisation put forward by so many distinguished historians. I was merely trying to point out to you and anyone reading this that this subject is FAR more complex then you are willig to admit, hence the plethora of printed works on exactly that question.

Your attempts to blame the Jews are massivly out of place and completly off the mark. I hope that you've never studied history because that gives you some kind of excuse for the quality of your arguments.

As i said at the start I was hoping for intelligent debate but seeing as on here its an argument between whoever you guys all are I don't want to be involved.
 

Two comments

1. Lee claims:
"Theya [Israeli refuseniks] are the equivalents of the Jews who worked in the death camps to round up other Jews for the Nazis."

This is a preposterous comparison, Lee. It's outrageous for two reasons: (a) those people never stooped to the moral abyss of those Jewish Kapos who willingly cooperated with the Nazis, and (b) most Jewish collaborators with the Nazis performed their roles reluctantly.


2. Argue distorts and lies:
"So the Zionist here is claiming that the origins of Palestinian nationalism are in Nazism. This is absurd. Of course the real roots of Palestinian nationalism are in the Zionist Israeli settler state occupying and eliminating the Palestinian homeland through terror and racist discrimination."

Again he's at his slick stunt.
I didn't claim earlier that Palestinism is entirely rooted in Nazism. I said Palestinism has certain Nazi roots in Hajj Amin al-Husseini's zealous collaboration with, and support and encouragement of, the Nazi movement and its extermination machine. Anyone can scroll up and see how the slick-trick Argue has distorted what I said.

I believe that aside from pointing out there's never been a Palestinian homeland, Argue's other nonsense has been amply refuted.
 

NO AMOUNT of suffering entitles one people to another people's home.

AS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN WHO ALSO COME FROM A PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN OPPRESSED FOR CENTURIES AT THE HANDS OF EUROPEANS (MAINLY BY CHRISTIANS, BUT OFTEN ENABLED/PRACTICED BY SOME JEWS), I CAN ADAMANTLY SAY THAT...

**NO AMOUNT** OF SUFFERING ENTITLES ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE TO MASS DISPOSSESS, TAKE, OR BE GIVEN THE LAND OF ANOTHER -- ESPECIALLY 3RD PARTY -- PEOPLE.

*NO*!!: ZIONIST JEWS DON'T HAVE A MORAL RIGHT TO SO-CALLED "SELF-DETERMINATION" AT ANOTHER PEOPLES' EXPENSE AND MASS DISPOSSESSION. *NO* ONE DOES!


AS THE FORMERLY ZIONIST, *JEWISH*, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY, ERNEST BEVIN, THEN ONCE SAID AROUND THE TIME OF ISRAEL'S FOUNDING (WHEN CLEMENT ATLEE WAS PRIME MINISTER IN THE 194O'S), "IT WAS EUROPE, NOT THE ARABS, THAT OWED JEWS RESTITUTION."
 

YAWN...

The above is an exact copy of a post JA, an antisemitic and anti-White racist, posted to Wendy Campbell's thread.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

So-called "critical thinker" is bored. I'm sorry, but we are not here to entertain racist Zionists like yourself. "JA" pretty much summed up the biggest issue we are dealing with, that Israel is built on the mass murder, forced exodus, and theft of the land of the original inhabitants. This is the original sin of Zionism that must be dealt with or there will never be peace. Instead the capitalist Israeli government just continues to carry out more of the same crimes.

Someone earlier stated that we should not take sides. This is wrong. It is the Israeli and Jordanian governments that are the oppressors and Palestinians are the oppressed. As such the struggle for the Palestinian people is for liberation. A first step would be the overthrow of Sharon’s bloody government.

End the 3 billion dollars in military aid the U.S. sends to Israel every year! End the 100 million in military aid the U.S. sends to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan every year! For the abolition of the theocratic Israeli state! Down with the Kingdom of Jordan! For a democratic secular and socialist Palestine in place of Israel and Jordan with federated Hebrew and Arab speaking republics where the rights of all ethnic groups a guaranteed!

Iraq to the Iraqis! U.S. Out Now!
 

You do entertain me, dummy :-)

Your frothing mouth emits all these groundless rants and unsubstantiated aaccusations, and I read them primarily for fun and giggles, for you have immensely divorced yourself from the truth about the Palestinian-Israeli dispute as attested by your repetative lies.

You're boring me too. What's even more laughable is that you actually think your rants have some sort of inmfluence on what's happening in the Land of Israel.
 

What Must Be Done?

The Zionist writes, "What's even more laughable is that you actually think your rants have some sort of inmfluence [sic] on what's happening in the Land of Israel."

Perhaps my influence is small, but the best I can do is present the truth and advocate what is needed, as I have been doing. I do, however, have comrades in the land to which you refer, and they do take interest in what I have to say. In addition, the primary role I see myself playing in the United States in regards to this matter is exposing U.S. imperialism and building the anti-imperialist, socialist, and anti-war movement in the United States.

All of these things are important and do have an impact, no matter how large or small. A long-term perspective is important. It was only a small number of people who were speaking out against the U.S. War of Aggression on Vietnam in the early 1960s and they had no idea that they would actually do what they set out to do, only knowing something needed to be done. In the end that movement ended the war when U.S. soldiers refused to kill Vietnamese in their own land or put their own lives on the line for a cause they did not believe in. Those drafted soldiers did not believe in the cause they were forced to kill and die for partly because the anti-war movement had told them the truth. By 1972 and 1973 Nixon could not continue the war because of the rebelliousness and low moral of U.S. troops.

Some say we must stick to what can be done. Yet almost all of the small reforms they fight for seem further and further away every day. I say we must stick to advocating what must be done. The world is unstable, and the lust for war by U.S. imperialism in the midst of economic stagnation is making the world more unstable every day. It is in this context I advocate what must be done.
 

Amnesty Intl condemns Palestinian Terror...sort of

Thanks to Human Rights for the link to Amnesty Intl. In the article I found this in, AI devotes several paragraphs detailing incidents with the IDF places, dates, how many killed, how many injured (the IDF viewpoint is not given)and any and all Palestinian suffering documented.

And at the very end, almost like one of those disclaimers on a pill bottle you read this:

Amnesty International also calls on Palestinian armed groups not to initiate attacks and armed confrontation with Israeli troops from amongst residential areas, as this puts the local residents at risk of return fire and retaliation from the Israeli army, and reiterates its call on Palestinian armed groups to put an end to attacks directed against Israeli civilians in Israel or in the Occupied Territories.

NOTE: They don't ask the Palestinian Authority at all to clamp down on their local terror groups.
 

Another FACT for Lee Kaplan's litany

Just yesterday, a Palestinian couple was living a scenario right out of American folklore: the wife was in heavy labor in the back seat of their car, and the husband was driving her to the hospital in a state of extreme panic. Now, every red-blooded American knows the cops are supposed to pull this guy over, determine his malfunction, and then give him a sirens-blaring escort to the hospital, right? I mean, that's what they always do in the movies (duh, slobber)

All of which makes the reality of this couple's experience that much more disturbing. It seems genocidal IDF stormtroopers don't view this scenario with quite the same tender sensibility. In this instance, the sub-insect in question drew a bead on the husband's head with his sniper rifle and deposited his brains as an aerosol all over the wife, who also took a bullet as the car now left the road totally out of control and crashed.

www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200501/s1281534.htm

A third occupant of the car also had a bullet wound, which makes three, and yet the IDF jackboots lie -- as always -- saying they never fired directly at the car.

This is only the latest in a string of utterly inhuman acts perpetrated by the IDF just in the past week. For instance, there was the IDF tank that blew seven Palestinian youths to pieces in a Gaza strawberry field. This kind of shit HAPPENS TO PALESTINIANS CONTINUALLY, ALMOST EVERY DAY. Can you imagine the kind of concerted howling that would issue from every television in sight if this couple had been Israeli and the shooter Palestinian? Why, you wouldn't see an end to all the screaming and drum-pounding for months! But it happened the other way, so you don't hear about it at all (the above article is AUSTRALIAN). And it happens ALL THE TIME. For Palestinians, it's the constant backdrop of life.

www.concert4palestine.org/warcrimes/index.html

By way of contrast, when was the last time you heard about a Palestinian suicide bombing? And you WOULD HAVE heard... Keep in mind this is the thing the Israelis and zionists keep holding up to sanitize their ruthlessness. Has such a thing even been attempted lately? When CT, JAT, Kaplan, etc. leap in to insist it has, blood dripping from their fangs, will you believe them? Why? All their "sources" are just like them, rabid ideologues

Hold up the day-to-day REALITY of all the different kinds of violence the Palestinians absorb, and compare it to that which the Israelis endure, and any way you cut it the Palestinians are being destroyed while the Israelis reign supreme.

So excuse me if I want to spray my monitor with puke when I see this invidious asshole Lee Kaplan talking about which category of government Israel falls into as if this absolves or defends a fucking thing. You know what, Lee, lying bigot asshole? The United States was a "democracy," too, during the 114 years in which we massacred Indians continuously from the Alleghenies to the Pacific. To justify their villainy to themselves, Americans told themselves all the same putrid lies you tell yourself:

"We're just liberating them from savagery"

"This land is too good for the likes of these heathens -- God wants US to have it"

"Well, we have to DEFEND OURSELVES!"

and so on. And just like yours, their lies didn't justify shit, not then and not ever. They were just the conceits by which we slithered around the simple truth that we were greedy bigoted murdering monsters. We haven't really changed or learned much since then, either.

There's no forgetting or forgiving crimes this enormous. Americans better hope and pray justice is never served on us for what we did to the Indians, because if it ever is, all our exalted "prosperity" and "greatness" will be so many ashes sifting through our fingers.

And so too with Israel.
 

Keep the Following in Mind About Argue the Dolt:

In the thread "exposing" Davka and Lee Kaplan he dubbed some Arab guests of one TV show "Arabs" since their views were more pro-Israel than he'd like. Yet he has the gall to call me racist.

_______________________________________________________________


*** Editors: I first wrote this post some 12 hours ago and you've censored it! Shame on you for doing partisan editing work. DON'T remove this post.

If you have any problems with me, at least show the basic courtesy and courage to tell me what's bothering you.
 

On a claim by the hyper-misnomered "Zionists are the new Nazis"

The deranged rabid pro-Palestinian raves: "By way of contrast, when was the last time you heard about a Palestinian suicide bombing? And you WOULD HAVE heard...blah blah Has such a thing even been attempted lately? When CT, JAT, Kaplan, etc. leap in to insist it has, blah blah blah, will you believe them? Why? All their "sources" are just like them, rabid ideologues"

Why, even al-Jazeera, that vehicle of rabid rightwing ideology, confirms that two Palestinian terrorists set off an explosion that killed 6 Israelis and wounded several others Jan 13 in a combined suicide bombing & shooting attack. See www.indybay.org/news/2005/01/1714512_comment.php

No wonder people like FtN, Jake, Steven Argue and the latest to join them cannot escape the grip of incessant derision and marginalization from the vast majority of the public.
 

On Racism and Dafka

Of course it is necessary for racists to turn reality on its head. Just as the Israeli oppressors who hold power try to make the themselves look like the victims and the people look like the criminals, so to do the racists need to make anti-racists look like the actual racists.

“CT? claims that I am a racist because I dubbed some supposedly “Arab? guests on Becky Johnson’s show as “Arabs?. Becky Johnson is a member of a radical rightwing group that works with various police agencies called Dafka. That group brags on their website about disguised members passing themselves off as people from the Arab region.

Likewise Dafka leader Lee Kaplan has tried to pass himself of as me on this site and on others, posting repentant apologies for my supposed hatred of Jews and telling the public about how Dafka has helped me see the light.

So you can see there would be reason for me to be suspicious of the authenticity of any rabidly anti-Arab and pro-Zionist “Arab? presented as a guest on Dafka member Becky Johnson’s show.

As for “CT’s concern about racism against Arabs, I recall you telling me that an analogy that included a Jew mugging and murdering an Arab was preposterous because Arabs are always the aggressors. When I called that racism you responded that the world is sick of my type of “PC crap?. Personally I think the world is much more sick of “CT’s? kind of racism and the genocide it tries to justify than the political correctness of those of us trying to make the world a better place.

I wish I had more time to answer more of the absurd accusations posted against me in this thread, but I need to get back to writing a book I’m working on at the moment.
 

Read the slick mendacious buffoon Argue in his own words

Steven Argue, the lying racist buffoon, is evidently experiencing a few pangs of conscience because he was reminded that his anti-Arab racism is a matter of public record and feels the need to exonerate himself. In doing so he's both lying (no novelty there) (also about my being a racist) and further entangling himself in his anti-Arab racism.

He's misrepresenting both what he said and what I said on that thread, santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/13401/index.php

I'm sure fair minded people will realize exactly what each of us said. By contrast, Argue's amen corner will obviously support every single word he wrote in his last post here.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

The Zionist suggests, “Steven Argue, the lying racist buffoon, is evidently experiencing a few pangs of conscience because he was reminded that his anti-Arab racism is a matter of public record and feels the need to exonerate himself.?

No, actually I just felt a need to respond to your slander. In addition, I have misrepresented nothing you Arab hating liar.
 

Arab, Pakistani, what's the difference according to Steve Argue

Actually, Lee Kaplan disguised himself as a Pakistani in order to get into an ISM organizational meeting and the Duke University Hate-Against-Israel conference. He did so as an undercover journalist. His articles are posted on www.frontpagemag.com

The "Arabs" I had on three successive shows were Walid Shoebat, a Palestinian Arab. And Nonie Darwish, a naturalized Arab-American who grew up in Gaza. Steve Argue would like to say I don't have the Palestinian viewpoint represented on my show, but in reality I just don't have HIS Palestinian viewpoint on my show. Not all Palestinians agree with Steve Argue.

Many Indyreaders also know that I have had Steve Argue on my show several times in the past as well. Does that make me a racist?

re: George's interview with Shimri Zamarit and Noam Bahat. First I note these young men are high school students. They are certainly idealistic and fervent in their cause, but as high school students, they simply don't have the depth, the experience, or the accumulated knowledge that many older people have.

The letter George read was signed by 300 "draft age" students. Hence, they really weren't Israeli refuseniks. All but five of them were just students signing a petition. Contrast this against the size of the Israeli army and reservists (186,500 troops and 30,000 reservists).

Do the math. That means 0% of the actual Israelis serving in the army or reserves signed the petition George read.

Peace IS possible writes about how articulate these young men are. Here is an example:
Shimri Zamarit: "(Israel is)using them (the Palestinians) also to get benefits from other places by the fact that whenever they want to get some support from some other making some small progress to peace, this is kind of what I meant."

Geez, was that articulate or what???

As for Noam Bahat, he wants a two-state solution as a preliminary so "people can stop dying and there is more freedom and democracy."

Of course the Palestinians have turned down an independent state every time its been offered.

And the reason people are dying is the Arabs keep attacking Israel and the Jews (and Israel defends itself from these attacks). As for freedom and democracy, the best example of a government in the mideast where these exist is in Israel. In the PA, they vote every 9 years for a five-year term of office. Opposition candidates get shot. Only PA approved reports are allowed on PA TV and news media. Women are routinely murdered by honor killings, which are rarely prosecuted. Gays can not "come out". And those who advocate publically to make peace with Israel are publically lynched in the streets as a gruesome reminder to anyone else who favors peace with Israel.

Oh, and Abu Mazen,who was just elected? He was the money-man who paid the terrorists who murdered the Israeli Olympics team in Munich. His masters degree is from his thesis on holocaust denial. He called Israel the "Zionist enemy" the other day, and was carried on the shoulders of wanted criminals from the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

This is the kind of "freedom" and "democracy" Steve Argue, Noam Bahat, and Jake would have imposed on Israel.

His second phase is to "abolish racism" which is a fine goal and one I support, but as the old saying goes --easier said than done.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Please see for yourself the Al-Jazeera article the pathological liar CT pretended to link to earlier

english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4B23CBA7-926A-4935-B870-61987A9694DD.htm

It describes a Hamas attack on an unambiguous Israeli military target (a Gaza border checkpoint), for which Israel retaliates by firing two (Salon states three) missiles into the heart of Deir al-Balah refugee camp, totally destroying the Al Ehsan Charity Organization's facility and damaging a neighboring medical center and several houses.

Parsing this one, we have:

1) the Palestinians attacking a bonafide military target, killing six Israeli soldiers (comes in somewhat low on the 'aghast index' given that, face it, this is a war);

2) the Israelis counterattacking against a very soft civilian target (more definitive as an example of terrorism, even if they did use multi-million-dollar equipment);

3) and from this account the human cockroach CT comes away with a critique of only the Palestinian action, which he equates with a C-4 overcoat being triggered on a school bus.

Altogether, a classic zionist hatchet-job on the thing called reality.

Also, compare the hit count for news stories on the Karni bombing (1,080 hits) ...

news.google.com/news

to that of the expectant Palestinian father's hot lead lobotomy, which happened the same day (3 hits):

news.google.com/news

Israeli retribution has already been widespread and indiscriminate, and will certainly continue to be for weeks. Here's the only detailed discussion I could find:

www.noticias.info/asp/aspComunicados.asp
 

Becky Johnson, Older But Not Wiser

Becky Johnson said, "Arab, Pakistani, what's the difference according to Steve Argue." Yet I've never called any Pakistani an Arab. Becky, you're just getting too weird.

And now Becky Johnson wants to claim that she knows more about what is going on in Israel than 300 draft age people who are refusing to fight. Becky Johnson claims that she is older and wiser. Since she is so much smarter why doesn't she volunteer to go fight in this seemingly endless racist war? I say the kids are a lot smarter.
 

What the deranged pro-Palestinian is loath to recognize

The terrorist Palestinian attack wasn't really perpetrated against a military target. We're talking about the Karni border crossing through which humanitarian assistance flows in to Palestinian Gazans, while goods and merchandise from the Gaza strip to Israel and vice versa get transported through them daily.

Of more importance, both the casualties and the wounded were civilian, including two Israeli Arab fatalities.

I didn't use al-Jazeera in my post above due to its impeccable credibility; it has precious little of that attribute. Far more credible sources reveal what exactly happened in the terrorist attack on the Karni crossing, like
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite
 

ZioNazi boot camp filling up quick here! Hurry and sign up to live your dream!

Yes, of course, CT. The pro-Israel bias of the Jerusalem Post is as extreme as your own, so therefore you think this source is "credible." We already know this about your reasoning, i.e. that it's perfectly circular concerning certain subjects.

Here's another "gem" on this from the JPost:

www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite

"Dror Gizri, a security guard who was killed in a terror attack on the Karni crossing Thursday evening, was to celebrate his 31st birthday on Friday."
"The birthday cake is in the refrigerator," his wife, Michal, told Army Radio Friday morning. "Everything is ready for the party: snacks, surprises. We bought him a sweat suit, and new shoes.
"But my beloved husband is now gone."

Now, if the JPost were really "credible," wouldn't it strike up this maudlin violin concerto for Palestinians, too? Like for example the incipient father who'd now be enjoying his newborn if his brains just happened to still be INside his skull? His name doesn't come up on their site at all, and in fact they NEVER position the reader to see both sides sympathetically. The inconsolable victims are Israelis and settlers, the demonic killer beasts always Arabs. What a snug tidy picture of things!

When I surfed their site, every single page had a huge banner across the top advertising a super-neato paramilitary training camp:

www.icearmycamp.com/

This just says it all. The seven-day program culminates with the pupil living his fondest fantasy: "War Night," in which he gets to run around with a machine gun looking for "terrorists" (i.e. any Arab whatsoever) to blow away on sight. Quite the handy mind-control device, this "terrorism" construct. Take an average shmo and grind it into his brain long enough, and he's transformed into a psychopathic killer you can unleash against any target population, whose real crime is that they have shit you want (land; sovereignty; oil... ). How cool! You don't have to take any real risks yourself, either, in fact you can make a million bucks helping these fucking morons live their hate-crazed "fantasy." Simply brilliant!

Orwell warned us the future would be this way; too bad all the Westernist bigots assumed he just meant "communism."

As with most of American media, Jerusalem Post's paramount function is to to serve empire by whipping up murderous polarization in the 'little people.' That's why you like it. You're already on the extreme vanguard here; hoofing around selling your own values is all they're doing. OF COURSE you approve.
 

The psychopath's distraction won't rebuild his credibility

The deranged psychopathic pro-Palestinian is attempting the trick he was expected to resort to -- changing the subject. He got his ass handed to him for having lied so amateurishly and was shown that al-Jazeera's report wasn't sufficiently specific about the details, so now he's madly lashing out at the medium that covered the terrorist attack much better than al-Jazaara.

The reason for the JPost covering the Israeli side of things with a measure of sympathy it doesn't reserve for Palestinians is probably because most other media do the opposite in varying degrees. It may be claimed the JPost is applying a sort of emotional affirmative action.

But all that shouldn't distract anyone who cares about factual reporting from how bluntly the above fanatic pro-Palestinian lied. Notably, he lied that the Israeli casualties were soldiers even though al-Jazeera's report itself didn't attempt to make that claim.

How predictable that almost every abuse he hurls at me is a projection of his own traits, like "pathological liar".
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

"The reason for the JPost covering the Israeli side of things with a measure of sympathy it doesn't reserve for Palestinians is probably because most other media do the opposite in varying degrees."

Oh yeah? Where the fuck is that? It sure isn't true of U.S. media. If it's true of the world as a whole, maybe that's because most people don't like manipulative bully assholes who steal other people's land and then bawl "genocide!" when they fight back. You ignore this at your own peril. You had your day, keeping everyone fooled for decades, but now awareness and justice are swinging the other way. The more desparately you try to fight this, the more you're going to look like a bunch of vicious psychotics. Go ahead, pull all the September 11s you want to -- I for one am totally on to you, and so are a lot of others
 

Gaza Border Checkpoint located exactly where Oslo Accords agreed it would be

Factoring calls the Gaza Border checkpoint "a legitimate military target" and lies and tells us that only IDF soldiers were killed. That checkpoint is in exactly the location that Arafat and the PA agreed it would be when they signed the Oslo Accords in 1993.

He then tells us Israel's "retaliatory" attack was to destroy a charitable and humanitarian groups facilities. Wrong Wrong Wrong.

In the article which he provided the link to, it says that the IDF said it was attacking the building because Islamic Jihad was using the building to plan more attacks against Israel, NOT as retaliation for the Karni bombing. He says the charitable facility was destroyed and a medical center and several houses were damaged. The "medical center" damage, according to the article came from an unnamed "witness". NO houses were mentioned to be damaged or destroyed. Factoring just added that in to make readers think the Israelis are just pure evil. What is evil is the way he is lying about this.

He says "face it, this is war" but condemns the IDF for any military action on their part--- a clear double-standard.

This is such a good example of someone twisting the facts to put Israel in the worst possible light. I also think his calling CT a "human cockroach" is a good example of Factoring's own racism against a man who happens to be an Israeli and a Jew.

Think about it. If I called a black person a "human cockroach" wouldn't that be a racist comment?

The story about the man shot driving his pregnant wife to the hospital goes like this: Palestinian sources say he was shot in the head and his wife and a 2nd passenger were shot but not killed. Israeli sources say: IDF shot warning shots in a field, and the car crashed, killing the man.
Al Jazeera says: Palestinian doctor reported bullet wounds and the man had no scratches lending doubt to the IDF claim of the car accident.

Think about this. If the man had been shot in the forehead while driving at a high rate of speed, wouldn't he be likely to crash? No scratches? hmmmmm.

NOTE to STEVE: Lee Kaplan disguised himself as a Pakistani, not an Arab. I don't know that I know much more than these 300 kids, but their parents and grandparents certainly do. As you know, I am not Jewish and I have never been to Israel. But I am 50 years old, have watched a lot of history unfold, read a lot of articles on all sides, and can't be lied to about what "really" happened as many of the historians you recommend do. I do not have the obsessive goal of destroying the State of Israel, the only refuge in the world for Jews, like you do. BTW--I never heard your explanation about the dozens of quotes you used to link Jabotinsky to the Hagadah. CT accused you of grossly misrepresenting these connections where none existed and falsifying the sequence of events. You just let him make those claims with no response. Was he right and you wrong? What's the deal?
 

"CT accused you of grossly misrepresenting these connections where none existed"

???
I recall that I erroneously claimed the Haganah was never Jabotinsky's organization before Steven Argue proved he established and led it in its first year. Argue and I already talked it out. I now accept that I was wrong. Why is this being brought up now?


For the time being I've got no comment on the above hate consumed psychopath's tripe-crammed offal.
 

Okay Becky

The targets in Deir al-Balah refugee camp are discussed in more detail in the Noticias.com article I linked to, which you obviously didn't see.

And again you're quoting the IDF spokesperson version of why Israel attacked Deir al-Sabah as if this represents infallible truth, when in fact any impartial person can tell you this is about the least credible body on the planet. Your credulity regarding their blatantly false announcements is really weird. For example, you regurgitate their lie that they didn't shoot directly at the car bearing the pregnant woman. From whence, pray tell, O Becky, didst the bullets that caused their wounds issue? I suppose the other Palestinians at the checkpoint whipped machine guns out from under their garments and fired on the car while the IDF jackboots just stood there slack-jawed watching them do this ...? You exhort the reader to "think about this." Well it hardly takes a Sherlock Holmes to figure out the IDF simply had to do the shooting and they're just lying about it. It's the only remotely likely possibility. Your incoherent effort to summon an alternative possibility succeeds only as comedy.

Also, what I've been condemning, with great consistency, is not Israel's military actions per se, but its grotesque atrocities against targets that can in no way be called "military." Like the couple in the car, like the targets in Deir al-Balah, and no, I don't give a fuck what the IDF says. They've lied too many times, the truth of their claims can't be assumed. Israel has denied the Palestinians anything that can even rightly be called a military, so they've smuggled in weapons and are waging a guerrilla war instead. Under these conditions, Israel can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, and moreover doesn't care. It's a kind of situation that always produces obscene attacks on totally innocent civilians, a la My Lai, and I have every right and reason to criticize any government that does that shit.

As for my wanting "to put Israel in the worst possible light," actually I only want to portray it as badly as it actually is. The insanity called zionism is destabilizing the entire planet. If that means either Israel or the planet has got to go, then Israel gets my vote. You, on the other hand, want to excuse everything it does and portray it as the perpetual martyr and underdog. "Martyrs and underdogs" don't have hundreds of nukes, nuclear-armed submarines, huge inventories of supersonic fighters, attack helicopters, monster bulldozers, tanks, worldwide intelligence networks, etc., etc., etc.

The underdog here, O Dim One, is the Palestinians.

You know a very interesting amount about CT. I didn't know he was Israeli. What on earth is an Israeli doing gatekeeping a U.S. website at 4:00 AM every morning local time? He's adapted his schedule to that of the internet precinct he's patrolling, mebbe? I think you're keeping some very questionable company, Becky, and I'm going to tell your mom.

"Human cockroach" simply expresses my opinion of such a warped and venomous imperial apologist. You're right, though, it was inappropriate.

Also, I assumed the Israelis killed at Karni Crossing were IDF, and yes that was a mistake but it was NOT a lie. This is the first time I've ever heard of an Israeli checkpoint where the personnel were not IDF, and personally I smell a rat here. If they weren't IDF, what were they? Shin Bet? Private security contractors? Whatever they were, portraying them as "innocent civilians" seems rather disingenuous, in that familiar zionist truth-morphing way. At best, they fall into a strategically calculated gray area. It's just as likely your precious infallible Israeli media is lying through its teeth.
 

"Imperial apologist"? LMFAO...thanks for the laugh

I've added that offense to the collection of insults I sustain from the whacked weirdos on IMC.

Anyway, the damage control blitz "Factoring in" undertakes attempting to cover up his falsehood laden diatribes from before is pretty unconvincing, what with his continued transparent nitpicking so as to try and paint the Israeli victims as not innocent.
 

Yes, OF COURSE they're innocent! After all, THEY'RE ISRAELIS!!!!

You know, pal, it's enough to make my eyes bleed, dragging them across your tortured idea of prose. Your writing sucks dogshit through a rubber hose, just like your politics. Do everyone a big favor and lay off the thesaurus. Can't Mossad find anybody who's a native speaker or who can write worth a fuck? Jeez, I think I should complain to AIPAC about this.

And, NO, people who choose to staff the Empire's outposts are NOT innocent. They're A) severely brainwashed dolts like you and B) fair game. You want to stick your head in a lion's mouth, go right ahead. Just don't come around afterward, spurting blood onto me with your neck-stump, insisting I join your 'all lions must die' club.
 

You need to look at what EVERYONE says, even the IDF

to Wolfing Factor: You wrote: "Well it hardly takes a Sherlock Holmes to figure out the IDF simply had to do the shooting and they're just lying about it."

BECKY: I simply pointed out the only source for information about the people being injured by bullets was from a Palestinian source at the hospital.

Wolfie said: "Israel has denied the Palestinians anything that can even rightly be called a military..."

BECKY: Actually, after Arafat set up the Palestinian Authority, he was given 30,000 police officers. He complained he couldn't keep order without weapons. So Israel armed the PA 30,000 member police force. Of course, shortly after that, Israelis started getting murdered by Israeli-supplied PA police weapons.

Oh and Wolfie, thanks for admitting you were wrong. I don't know who CT is. I thought he said he was Israeli in one of his previous postings. But maybe I imagined it. I certainly am learning a lot from his posts.
 

Yes, assclown!! All Israelis = criminals, all Palestinians = innocent lambs!!!!!

That's what the propaganda-gripped and mind-warped deranged pro-Palestinian would have everyone believe.

No matter how more insane such anti-Israel people become, the simple fact is the Palestinians were the ones to initiate each round of violence since shortly after signing the Oslo accord in September 1993, just as Becky Johnson explained. The intifada is just the latest round begun by them.

Wanna see an end to Palestinian suffering at Israeli hands? Start yelling at Abu-Mazen to implement his newly declared pledge to prevent terror operations against Israelis forthwith and issue him periodic reminders. Use all your wasted passion on here to hold Abu-Mazen to his word, and you might notice a difference, you whacked assclown.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

I dont want to believe the editors of this forum removed my comments by purpose however it would seem so. soooo once again.
to say that Israel is or has stolen the palestinian homeland is ridicules the palestinian presence in the land of Israel only became significant (i.e. more than 150,000) during the turkish rule of the area most of the population imagrated during that time in search of work. Actually the people that call themselves palestinians are a collection of different tribes and families whose roots are scatered all over the middle east. if they didnt have somebody to fight they would be (and are)busy killing each other. Nobody seems to mention that every country these people have been in they have attacked tried to destabalize and generally destroyed. JORDAN-LEBANON-KUAIT-TUNISE-AFGANISTAN-IRAQ-ISRAEL
look at what is happining in european cities that have substantial palestinian populations.
They are attempting to define their identity
by destroying everything they touch.

ON THE OTHER HAND
The Jewish nation has been expeled from it's universally aknowleged home land numerous times
has gone to great lengths that no other nation on earth would do, to try to find a sollution ( other than suicide) to this problem.

The fact is that Israel the land all of it belongs to the jewish nation and allways will!!!
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Becky Johnson and Critical Thinker and the other pro-Israelis are the only ones with any sense here. The Palestinians are only terrorists. These pinko communist Osama lovers should all die along with all of their Palestinian friends. God gave Israel to the Jews, not the communists and stinking greasy Arabs.

Becky Johnson said:

"I simply pointed out the only source for information about the people being injured by bullets was from a Palestinian source at the hospital."

She is right. The Palestinians are all a bunch of liars. Their words mean nothing, but these commies love them and eat up every word!

Israel treated Arabs well, and only gott their hatred. Now it is time for all of them to go.
 

Yeah, that's the mentality, all right

"These pinko communist Osama lovers should all die along with all of their Palestinian friends. God gave Israel to the Jews, not the communists and stinking greasy Arabs."

Straight from Fox News to your computer, via the mind of some right-wing tool who'd have fit into Hitler's Germany like a hand into a glove. That goes for you and Becky, too, CT.

To all these latest ringers CT has called in (yeah, pal, I know all your sleazy Sayan tricks): you might want to get more serious about this little subject called H-I-S-T-O-R-Y, and stop letting cheesedick here feed you all your sources. The Palestinians represent a bloodline whose claim to this area is at least as ancient as the Jews. And since when do ANCIENT territorial count for anything, anyway? If they really do, all us Europeans better head back to Europe and take our grabbing greedy ways with us, and that includes half the Jews in Israel. What's that? You think that's excessive? Well then, you have a little hypocrisy problem then, DON'T YOU?

Also, The Middle East was quite stable for hundreds of years under the Ottoman Caliphs. There were Jews here (Sephardim) living intermixed with Arabs, and they got along fine. It was when the West, in the form of British imperialists, decided the Ottoman's domain needed to be THEIR domain that things went to hell here, and they've stayed that way because A) throughout the 90 years since then, the West has never stopped fucking with these people for two minutes and B) unlike you, they're not stupid assholes who believe Western religious and political rhetoric. They know they've been targeted for conquest by the major Western powers, and that's all Israel really represents, and they're furious about this, furious enough to lay down their lives if that's what it takes to make sure the West's greedy grabbing claws remain empty. They NEVER invaded you. YOU were the ones who did ALL the invading, in every single place "Asleep and Oblivious" mentioned. Now you've whipped up exactly the hornet's nest you deserved, and you want to pretend these people are insane so you can up the ante even more? Well, fuck all of you stupid scummy greedy assholes! I applaud the people of the Middle East for having the brains to see through all your weak-minded bullshit and the guts to give you EXACTLY what you deserve. May all your soaring fantasies of globalist grandeur come crashing down on your heads!
 

Genocidal Nationalists

The Zionist with the misnomer alias "Common Sense" writes, "God gave Israel to the Jews, not the communists and stinking greasy Arabs."

God gave Israel to the Jews? This reminds me of a quote from another murderous nationalist:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kompf, 1924.

Likewise in America they called it Manifest Destiny as this country was built on the bones and extermination of Native Americans.

The Zionist goes on to claim, "Israel treated Arabs well, and only got their hatred. Now it is time for all of them to go."

This is the murderous logic of Zionist nationalism. In reality Israel was born of terror and mass murder against the Palestinians. The Zionists have always treated the Palestinians like the U.S. government has treated the Sioux, except that the Zionists kept a few more Palestinians around as second-class citizens as cheap labor.

Palestine belongs to all who live there, not just the non-native Hebrew speaking population. Religion and the nationalism of the oppressors are tools used by the capitalist class to divide, conquer, and continue to exploit the majority.
 

Lying lunatic fringe assholes, incorporated

The paths of the deranged psychopathic liar and his less crazy comrade, the buffoon, have somehow converged and they ended up pounding jointly.

I have no idea what the "Sayan" is, neither do I know 'Awake and Aware'.
What's more, people like SF-IMC's "nessie" and "Factoring in" are the ones driven by Nazi-inspired animosity, which they direct at Zionist Jews. It's a classic act of rabid anti-Zionist projection -- they project their Nazi-like traits onto their most hated Zionist or Israel-defending foes. The Nazis are their Spiritual mentors.

Though I wouldn't resort to the colorful adjectives used by "Common Sense" ("pinko communist Osama lovers"), I nevertheless take delight in them.

The deranged "Factoring in" is simply a severe mental case that should be straightjacketed and confined to a closed psychiatric ward for the public's protection. Perhaps sedation will further help.

Reading the nut's historical claims, we see a variant of the anti-Zionist standard issue revised narrative. Let's get the facts straight:

1. The farthest in time the Palestinian bloodline can go back is to the mid 630s AD, when *some* of the ancestors of *some* of the people presently known as "Palestinians" emerged from the Arabian peninsula and occupied the Land of Israel a.k.a. Palestine in the course of an aggressive imperialistic occupation drive. There's no connection between them and the Cana'anites or the Philistines. The archaeologists and scholars of other disciplines have long refuted both theories propagated by Arab propaganda (i.e. Philistines-->Palestinians and Cana'anites-->Palestinians), but the hardcore anti-Zionist camp couldn't care less as they never wanted to forfeit a propagandistic tool.
During the first millennium BCE *none* of the ancestors of the people now known as "Palestinians" were present in the Land of Israel.

2. Another common lie (and sometimes misconception) is the argument that only Sephardi Jews were ever historically indigenous to the Land of Israel, but no Ashkenazi Jews. This claim goes hand in hand with the misunderstanding of what Sephardi means. Sephardim are basically the decendents of the Jews who lived in Muslim Spain in the Middle Ages.
In reality Ashkenazis began immigrating to the land as early as the 13th century when 300 rabbis from France moved there; the other Jews living in the land were Middle Eastern Jews or Mizrahim in Hebrew. Over the 2nd millennium AD both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, and later on also Yemenite and others who were distinct from both Sephardim and Ashkenazim immigrated to the land, joining their Mizrahi brethren.

In any case, all major historical Jewish communities, be they Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Yemenite or Mizrahi, have real roots in the Second Temple ere (515BCE - 70CE) Jewish population of the Land of Israel. So the nut's argument about how Europeans worldwide must get back to whence they came doesn't apply to the vast majority of Jews.

3. The Sephardi Jews, while adopting many Arab manners, including much of the mentality, clothing fashion and language, did NOT intermix with Arabs beyond living with them in some cities (Jerusalem, Hebron, Tiberias, Zafed, Jenin). The most commonly touted lie (and at times misconception) is that peace reigned between Arabs and Sephardim. In actuality all Jews were subject to daily humiliation, discrimination, sporadic bursts physical violence and religious persecution.

Apart from the Arab invasion of the 630s, there were a few other subsequent ones, such as the conquest by Egyptian Muhammad Ali in 1831 during which many Egyptians settled as far as Nablus. So much for the idiotic claim that Arabs "Never invaded you".

Massive Arab migration into Palestine was mostly documented but also reliably deduced from census figures starting from WWI (late Ottoman period) through the British Mandate period in the 1920s and 1930s until the 1940s. There is ample proof for the existence of this invasion (or "invasion"). The Arab migration was even bigger than the Jewish immigration. These facts, however, are among the ones that will never be recognized by the anti-Zionist liars.

When the deranged pro-Palestinian nut is done with his historical overview he spouts the absurd drivel that Israel essentially represents conquest by major Western powers. He's just going to the required length to avoid recognizing here that Israel is the materialization of the age-old Jewish yearning to renew political independence ion the Land of Israel.

For most of the past 100 years the Arab rage has basically been one fueled by envy, pride and greed -- an uncompromising determination to deprive Jews of a state on ANY of the territory. Only during the past few dozen years increasing numbers of Arabs have slowly but surely come to adopt a more realistic attitude about political Jewish presence in the Land of Israel.

Evidently people like the above deranged whack will avoid recognizing and calling the insanity embedded in the acts of Palestinian terrorists even if their lives are at stake.

The person who encouraged me above sounds like an observant Jew and unfortunately made some racist remarks which I don't endorse. But the buffoon Argue voids his own credibility when he takes his extreme demands and dresses them as representative of the Zionist mentality as a whole. The comparison of the Zionist with the US govt. is almost as small minded.

Israel was the product of diplomacy and Zionist development of the land even more than anti-Arab terror.

I'm not going to waste time refuting and rerefuting the communist nonsense being spewed by the deranged liar and his buffoonish comrade ad infinitum.
 

You will STILL call me a racist

For the record: I do not want "all Palestinians to die." I do not support "transfer" unless its voluntary. I do not hate all Palestinians. I advocate for the rights of Palestinians (and all people) to have housing, food, medicine, education, and self-determination---unless that just means to kill Jews.

I do not think the Israelis are better or more important than any other nationality. There are good and bad people among any population. I do acknowledge the amazing contribution the Israelis and the Jews have made to medicine, technology, literature, theatre, and science.

I do believe press releases from the IDF are more accurate than those from the PA. I have read too many reports of the IDF "machine-gunning children in the street" or "shooting into a crowd" that were later completely disproved by the aerial photographs provided by Israeli drones.

One problem is that when anyone gets raped or murdered on the West Bank or Gaza, the IDF gets blamed EVERY time. Its hard to sort the real out from the fictional. Some of those crimes actually ARE committed by Israelis. But the source is so tainted, who can tell?

Remember, in 2002 when the IDF went into Jenin to take out the number one source of the suicide bombers, the PA said the IDF had killed 1500, then 1000, then 500 Palestinians. The IDF said 49 all along with 47 armed combatants. The final list of names provided by the PA??? 56!!

Not too long after that some leftist published a book about the Jenin incursion. He said "We will never know how many were killed" rather than admit that the anti-Israel propagandists were working overtime in Jenin and got caught in a huge fib. Even Scott Kennedy to this day claims that "between 50 and 500" were "probably killed." Why doesn't he just come clean and admit that the Palestinian sources fabricated the death toll?

But go on, just keep thinking the worst about Israel everytime and gloss over real, vicious, racist, brutal, cold, calculated violent attacks on civilians by Palestinian terror groups. That's what people have been doing. But what is that going to gain anyone in the end?
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Becky, if you believe so strongly in the Jewish right to own and control the land of Palestine after the Jews being absent from the land for so many centuries, then why do you not advocate also for the Native Americans to reclaim America from the white man? Native Americans owned this land exclusively until only 2 centuries again. Their claim is far younger and stronger.

Seems you are motivated by racial prejudice than a desire for justice. Surely the plight of the Native Americans is a greater injustice. They too were wiped out in mass murder. They too lost their land and their property. They too were victims of an attempted genocide.

If two people were homeless and hungry on the street, one being Jewish and one not, I guess you'd only help the Jew even if the other's need was greater?

I see racial prejudice.
 

Historical Revisionism: the History you wanted instead of the history that was

"The Palestinians represent a bloodline whose claim to this area is at least as ancient as the Jews."

BECKY: Few people here know that the PA recently passed its constitution (2003). One of the provisions is that the PA is an Islamic state. So for all of you who froth at the mouth about "religious states" where is your protestation about the PA? Oh, and why don't you protest Sweden too, while you are at it, which has a state religion too ---Lutheran?

As for history:

Since Mohammed, the chief prophet for Islam wasn't even born until 570 AD. Abraham, Judaism's patriarch, "bought land" in Hebron c. 2000 BC. (read your Bible/Torah). My math indicates that the patriarch of Judaism --Abraham lived 2570 years before Mohammed. So the Jewish people lived in Israel 2600 years before the Muslims.

Mohammed never visited Jerusalem in his lifetime. The name Jerusalem is not in the Koran. Jerusalem is in the Torah over 700 times.

The Jewish religion is over 4,000 years old, making it the oldest of the major Western religions. Islam is a relative late-comer.

Most Palestinians in Israel are Jordanian. Many are ethnically Lebanese, Syrian, Saudi Arabian, and Egyptian. Claims of the Palestinians being the indigenous people have been largely oversold. David Meir-Levi has written a very detailed analysis of available census data for the land of Israel and he found that the Arab immigration tailed closely the Jewish immigration, spurred on by the jobs the Israelis created in agriculture and in industry.

Nor has this been anything but a boon to those Arabs who were drawn to settle in Israel.

Palestinian Arabs today enjoy a much higher level of education than any other Arab country.
Under Israeli occupation (1967 - 1993) Per income capita grew ten-fold with unemployment at 5%. Infant mortality rates plunged by 2/3. Women voted for the 1st time in Palestinian Arab history. Illiteracy dropped from 50% to 30%. Palestinian population has tripled since 1967.

The 1949 UNESCO ruling declared that any Arab who had lived in Israel for at least 2 years prior to 1948 "counted" as a Palestinian Arab. That means a very large percentage of Palestinian Arabs are not indigenous to the area at all. Ariel Sharon was born in Israel. Arafat was born in Egypt. Mustapha Bargouti was born in the USA. Edward Said, was born in Jerusalem to an American mother and an Egyptian father, and then was raised in Egypt. Not much of a connection with "Palestine."

By contrast, Jewish connection with the land of Israel (which has exact borders written in the Torah)go back 3,300 years. Not only did Israel rule for over a 1000 years in ancient times, there has been a continuous presence of Jews in the area for over 4000 years. Hebron was a Jewish city until 1929.

Palestinian nationhood or a national identity as Palestinians came quite late and AFTER a crushing defeat in 1967, a full 20 years AFTER Israel declared its independence. Prior to 1967, the Palestinians called themselves "Arabs".

So much for the "indigenous" Palestinians and the "colonialist" Israelis.
 

Okay Becky

So what is it about religion that causes you to substitute it for racial identity?

Also, and for the second time, since when do 2,000-year-old territorial claims mean anything? "Palestinians, its simple" made devastating points about Native Americans. This is absolutely correct. You live in the U.S. don't you, Becky? Were your ancestors living here 2,000 years ago? No? Maybe you should leave then. You know, for the sake of the consistency of your arguments. Especially since the genocides perpetrated by Americans immediately after the 1849 gold rush were arguably the most vile in U.S. history. Twenty three unique cultures representing four LANGUAGE FAMILIES were erased from the earth forever. You don't want that blood on your hands, do you? Or does it not matter because they weren't Jews?
 

The Circumstantial Evidence is Over-whelming

Steve, do you think you are being clever comparing the Jews to Hitler? Believe me, its been done so many times its overdone. But that doesn't begin to address how outrageous that is to compare the same people who suffered the loss of 6,000,000 of their people to gas chambers, camps, and summary executions with the man who publically commanded these horrors be carried out. But putting Hitler aside for the moment, I wanted to seriously address the issue of whether God gave Israel to the Hebrew people.

Since matters of religion involve issues of faith, these will never truly be resolved among peoples of different religious faiths or those who do not believe in a supreme deity. I would like to address this issue from all three angles:

THE JEWISH PERSPECTIVE

The Torah, the religious text for the Jewish people clearly delineates God intervening on behalf of the Hebrew people, who were living in slavery in Egypt, far from their home. And through Moses, leading them (eventually) to a new land whose borders are clearly delineated.
These were roughly the same borders for the Kingdom of David about 1000 BC. They include the current borders of Israel plus Gaza and the West Bank, and the Golan Heights.

THE CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE

Needless to say, Christians incorporate Judaism by including the Old Testament in their Bible. That Bible also has text supportive of the Jews being given the Land of Israel by God.

THE ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE

Interestingly, verses in the Koran also claim that God had, for whatever unknowable reason, given that land to the Jews as well.

THE COMMUNIST PERSPECTIVE

Communists generally do not believe in a supreme being. They are largely agnostics and aetheists considering these beliefs as mere fairy stories or, more kindly as unknowable.

THE SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE

Yet even the aetheists cannot discount archeological evidence of Hebrew culture dating back thousands of years, right in the area where Israel is today.

THE POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE

UN Resolution 181 partitioned the remnant portion of Palestine (Jordan had already been carved out of Palestine, governed by the Hashemite Kingdom) into a Jewish State--Israel and an Islamic State---Palestine. What followed was the 1948 war.

The Israelis even revived a dead language, Hebrew, and today many many people in Israel speak Hebrew.

THE MANIFEST DESTINY PERSPECTIVE

Before the Zionists came to set up the national homeland for the Jewish people, Palestine was underpopulated, filled with malarial swamps, and largly a desert area with few natural resources.

After Israel declared her independence, the land bloomed with agriculture and industry, and an increased population of both Jews and non-Jews. A nation appeared out of nowhere.

Did God give Israel to the Jews?

While the answer to this question is very personal and unprovable, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.
 

I'm underwhelmed

I guess you think this addresses my point that you muddle religion with geneology, but this doesn't resolve that problem at all, it just sort of wallows in it. That ancient Israel was the seat of the Jewish religion has always been the zionist's public rationale for reclaiming this area, with the presumption of direct descent from those people usually being used to bolster the case. My point is -- and this is the third time I've had to restate it -- even if all that's true, since when is such a territorial claim still valid after having lapsed for 1500 years? That so ancient a claim can only be void is one of the basic postulates of modern political reality, and you seem to accept this in the general case. But when the case of Israel comes up, this total double-standard explodes out of you. Your way of resolving the inconsistency (in your own mind) seems to be that this is the divine mandate of your belief system, that any social or physical reality beyond this is irrelevant and meaningless, that you're taking Israel back and God's on your side and anyone who gets in our way will get the white-hot sword of zionist zeal slammed up their ass, amen, hallelujah. I'm sorry, but I don't find this even a little persuasive. It's a very closed circular argument that really amounts to what I've been calling it all along: racialist self-advocacy.

Meanwhile, were there Jews here in antiquity? Okay, sure. Are all present-day Jews descended from them? Different matter altogether, much cloudier, and ultimately irrelevant. Your argument is complicated further by the fact that the Jews were not the ONLY ancient inhabitants of this area. What about other such claims, some of which might be even more ancient and inclusive? By your (ridiculous) rationale, don't such claims take precedence over your own? The final nail in your argument's coffin, though, is that you end on the "manifest destiny" note as if this whole category of thinking is anything other than obscene. It's just pure bigot-think.

One of the best illustrations of this is the country that invented the term, the United States. Your argument here is identical to that of American's during the settler bigot phase. I already talked about this:

The United States was a "democracy," too, during the 114 years in which we massacred Indians continuously from the Alleghenies to the Pacific. To justify their villainy to themselves, Americans told themselves all the same putrid lies you tell yourself:

"We're just liberating them from savagery"

"This land is too good for the likes of these heathens -- God wants US to have it"

"Well, we have to DEFEND OURSELVES!"

and so on. And just like yours, their lies didn't justify shit, not then and not ever. They were just the conceits by which we slithered around the simple truth that we were greedy bigoted murdering monsters. We haven't really changed or learned much since then, either.

There's no forgetting or forgiving crimes this enormous. Americans better hope and pray justice is never delivered to us for what we did to the Indians, because if it ever is, all our exalted "prosperity" and "greatness" will be so many ashes sifting through our fingers.

And so too with Israel.
 

Re: Gaza Border Ceckpoint located exactly where Oslo Accords agreed it would be

I don't know much about all of this but I do know that the security wall is being built inside formerly Palestinian territory and Palestinian farmers are being forced to give up their land and their livelihood as a result. How "fair" does that seem to you Becky? Just because the movement of Palestinians off of their land, through the building of walls and settlements, is slower than if the Israelis simply invaded and occupied the remaining Palestinian territory all at once does not mitigate the charge of Genocide on the part of the Israelis against the Palestinians. The fact that the Palestinians want the Israelis to be driven into the sea in response may not be justifiable either. Some concessions of territory need to be made by Israel and then leave the Palestinians the hell alone. That would go a long way towards eliminating the intifada.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

" Palestinian farmers are being forced to give up their land and their livelihood as a result. "

That's the direct result of NOT giving up terrorism...
Intifada really sucks
 

The First Step to Peace is to recognise Israel

"Why do you not advocate also for the Native Americans to reclaim America from the white man? Native Americans owned this land exclusively until only 2 centuries again. Their claim is far younger and stronger."

BECKY: Hey! That's MY line! I have LONG said that the claim of Mexican and Indian peoples to both California and America is far stronger than the claim of the Palestinians to the land of Israel.

On a social justice position, America--both the government and the people---owe the Native American peoples and the Mexican people a huge debt. This rightfully should be addressed by identifying and rectifying past injustices as they manifest in the current Mexican and Native American peoples. i.e. We should effect public and private policy to address housing, employment, education, medical, mental health and complicity in their own decision making processes in these often, sadly poverty-stricken populations.

The United States has made and broken so many treaties to the sovereign Native American people, not to mention the actual genocide committed against them from Columbus on that preceeded US involvement. I have recently heard reports that indicate the slaughter of indigenous American people was more massive than we have previously believed. Americans have a lot of atoning to do.

The claim of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel is indeed, set in stone. The first step towards Peace is to recognise Israel.

p.s.
General question for anyone: When you say "Palestine" what land are you referring to?
 

Re: Gaza Border Ceckpoint located exactly where Oslo Accords agreed it would be

I don't know much about all of this but I do know that the security wall is being built inside formerly Palestinian territory and Palestinian farmers are being forced to give up their land and their livelihood as a result. How "fair" does that seem to you Becky? Just because the movement of Palestinians off of their land, through the building of walls and settlements, is slower than if the Israelis simply invaded and occupied the remaining Palestinian territory all at once does not mitigate the charge of Genocide on the part of the Israelis against the Palestinians. The fact that the Palestinians want the Israelis to be driven into the sea in response may not be justifiable either. Some concessions of territory need to be made by Israel and then leave the Palestinians the hell alone. That would go a long way towards eliminating the intifada.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

As long as the Israeli claims are set in stone, there will continue to be Palestinian resistance.

As far as the comparison with Native Americans and Mexicans in the US is concerned, there are parallels on both sides, but the anology does not justify the Israeli tactics or goals. I don't know where the borders of "Palestine" are or used to be. All I know is that the current situation has the Israeli settlements enroaching on the formerly (maybe relatively recently) Palestinian areas. If what Becky says is true where the Jews really have claim to the land from Biblical times, then asking the Palestinians to forgive the Israeli transgression is a bit like granting the Native American Homeless exclusive access to the land that the Santa Cruz City Hall currently sits on just because their ancestors had a burial ground there or used to live there. They don't live there anymore and they should have to buy it if they want it back. Should I be able to park a tank in front of the house where I grew up and demand to live there again or I will shoot? I would be arrested or blasted to bits on the spot, of course. That kind of enroachment and "negotiation" or "peace accord" has no place in the civilized world. I seriously doubt that the Palestinians aquired their current territory by forcing Jews from their homes in ancient times or otherwise.
 

Yah, I know all about "Christian Zionism"

"THE CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE ... [the] Bible also has text supportive of the Jews being given the Land of Israel by God."

All the Christians who really care about this are fanatical extremists. Their interpretation of scripture (an extremist whacko one... ) involves the Jewish reclamation of Israel as a prerequisite for the "Second Kingdom," their apocalyptic vision that any day now God will literally appear in the sky. I suppose they picture a ten-mile-long old man lounging on a cloud, stroking his flowing beard... As soon as He does this, they'll all literally physically float straight into heaven. This is God clearing the way so He can smite all the non-believers by destroying the planet -- yee-har! -- and this 'end of the world' is a GOOD THING so let's all get behind this ball and send it barreling along. Their support for zionism is thus unconditional and essentially amoral.

"Jews back to Israel, Ay-men! Jews caint do no wrong, just so long as thur a-helpin with God's Big Plan, yassir! Splatter them thur Ay-rab babies under them tanks -- it's God's will! Praise be!!"

Yeah, SURE this vicious bigot trash is going to heaven (rolling eyes)

Back in the early '50s, they claimed the zionists had fully satisfied this precondition by taking back part of Israel. God was going to 'rapture' them any day. But then He didn't, so they had to switch their story. God needs the Jews to take back ALL of Israel, yeah, that be it. This brand of bug-eyed Christian whacko has been switching stories continuously for the past 1500 years.

These people are deeply dangerously nuts, as nuts in their way as any bomb-wielding jihadist. Or ziomaniac ultranationalist, for that matter. The United States holds far and away the largest concentration of these people. They've even co-opted the government now. This is an extremely dangerous development, far more ominous than anything Islamic extremists have ever achieved. For one thing, the Islamists don't have nukes. Even the worst case scenario waved around constantly by Straussian pieces of shit like Wolfowitz is that they'll get maybe ONE, which they'll use immediately, thereby getting nuked back to the stone age themselves. The Christian lunatics of the West, on the other hand (and their zionist dupes), have tens of thousands of them, and unstoppable delivery systems, and also several other means of waging absolute worldwide terror. No one could stop them. Minus the part where they're levitated into heaven, they have the means to fulfill their insane prophecies without God's intervention...

Becky, your mention of their viewpoint as if it strengthens your case merely underlines your own extremism.
 

To John Thielking

Maybe history is beginning to pass you by. Abu Mazen has deployed 3000 police in part of the Gaza strip in a pilot trial to prevent Qassam launches and mortar shellings. If the experiment works OK, Palestinian forces will be deployed throughout all of Gaza for that same purpose prior to Israeli evacuation of the strip, with an option of deployment in Judea-Samaria too should the whole Gazan experiment succeed.

The reason I say this is, the PA's willingness to prevent attacks on Israelis may indicate the PA (and even nearly all secular Palestinians) has realized terror -- what you misleadingly brand "resistance" -- cannot gain the Palestinians any more than it has since the intifada broke out.

As for what you consider "Palestinian areas", know that Arabs owned only 3.3.% (!!!) of the territory in the Land of Israel on the eve of Israeli independence in 1948. Now who owned the rest? Well, by May 1948 8.6% was Jewish owned and the remainder was in the possession of the British Mandate rule that wrested it from the Ottoman rule that owned this land mass for 400 years. The likelihood that any genuinely Arab owned territory was ever usurped from local Arabs in Judea-Samaria and Gaza is almost zero, regardless of whether any Palestinians were ever uprooted from their land for Jewish settlement purposes. Interestingly, you yourself allow for the possibility that some areas have only recently become "Palestinian areas".

FYI, nearly every plot on which Jews immediately replaced Palestinians in the disputed territories was purchased from its Palestinian owners, regardless of the how genuinely those Palestinians had owned them. Cases in point are Siluwan, and E. Jerusalem which was ethnically cleansed of Jews during 1948 (a matter of fact). I have repeatedly heard and seen this on the news in Israel over the years.

I've told you what happened in E. Jerusalem in 1948. Guess what, something similar occurred elsewhere in the disputed territories: Hebron, the Etzion Bloc (4 villages south of Jerusalem), Kfar Darom in the Gaza strip and even Jenin. Actually the disputed territories as a whole were cleansed of Jews in 1948. Hebron had been rendered Jew-free already by 1936 through a process started by a massacre in 1929. All these facts are verifiable on the web and were duly documented.

The construction of the security barrier indeed necessitated some land confiscation that compromised some Palestinians' livelihoods, but the much greater injustice was Palestinian terroristic infiltration not only into Israel proper but also into Jewish communities bordering on the Green Line to commit terror. The security barrier's route doesn't meander that deep beyond the Green Line as some of you think.

The charge of genocide against the Palestinians is ludicrous as shown by all various posters in this thread and the "Exposing Dafka" one. All this bending of terms by the anti-Zionists so as to conjure whatever meaning they please into them is really tiresome and getting old.

Gaza's evacuation in itself, poised to be completed this summer, is already an Israeli territorial concession.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

"Gaza's evacuation in itself, poised to be completed this summer, is already an Israeli territorial concession"

Since it won't happen til this summer, and meanwhile Israel is still heavily engaged in Gaza, how is this "already"... ?

What's tiresome and old is your disingenuous way with "facts"
 

Alright, let me correct that

I shoulf have said it's an Israeli territorial concession in the making.

Why "in the making"? Because increasing numbers of Gazan Jews are being given compensation as part of the ecavuation plan as we speak. Some have even left Gaza altogether.

You know, Becky Johnson raised an important question you too should attempt to convincingly answer. I would put it this way: what kind of crap is it that many anti-Zionists refer to the entire Land of Israel west of Jordan as "Palestine" (the name given the whole land by the Romans in 135 AD), while many others apply this name only to the disputed territories?
 

Document your charges!

Factoring: I gave the Christian perspective because there are 2 billion Christians in the world. Are you saying all 2 billion Christians are deeply fanatical dangerous nuts? And you call ME a bigot???

To John: Document the so-called genocide that Israel has committed against the Palestinians. What percentage of their population has the IDF killed? Over what period of time? Were any of these deaths justified?

Then take a look at historical records on East Timoor, Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, Rwanda, Nazi Germany, and the current situation in Sudan.

Can you tell me, quantitatively how these other examples of real genocide compare with your allegations of Israeli genocide against Palestinians????

You wrote: "As long as the Israeli claims are set in stone, there will continue to be Palestinian resistance"

John, you are so close to actually getting it. The Israelis are not going to go away. They will not give up Israel and move back into the diaspora. If the Arab armies attack again, they will defend themselves down to the last man.

If the Palestinians actually recognize the right of Israel to exist, then the violence will stop.
Or if all the Jews are dead, then Arab violence against Jews will end but Arab on Arab violence and anti-Christian violence will continue.

As for land concessions by Israel, look at the 1979 Peace Treaty with Egypt. Israel gave back 94% of the land it conquered in 1967 to Egypt. Does that count as a land concession? Setting up the PA amounts to a land concession. The Oslo Accords, had they been properly implemented, would have amounted to a land concession to Palestinians 5 years after the ink was dry. It didnt happen because Arafat didnt stop the terror attacks.

You are woefully uninformed about some very basic and important points to be making the serious charges you are making.

Start with explaining how the disputed territories came to be land "owned by the Palestinians."
 

Oh, please

"Are you saying all 2 billion Christians are deeply fanatical dangerous nuts?"

No. I guess your reading comprehension isn't too good, so I'll repeat myself. Sound it out this time: "All the Christians who REALLY CARE about [Israel's theological significance] are fanatical extremists." This refers to the 'Christian zionist' phenomenon, which is made up entirely of followers of the more apocalyptic Protestant denominations (e.g. Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses), and the part about them being fanatical extremists is a simple statement of fact. Any faith that dwells on the 'end of the world' as a good thing merits questions as to the mental health of its followers, and this is where all of Israel's hardcore Christian support comes from.

www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4930.htm

These people are also George Bush's hardcore support, which no doubt explains why his tongue is always slapping up and down in Ariel's butt-crack. Without the massive electoral power of the Christian zionists working for it, Israel wouldn't have 1/10th the political clout in the United States.

www.villagevoice.com/news/0420,perlstein,53582,1.html

What a lovely imperial triad this is: zionists, Christian extremists, and extreme-right corporatists. I call it the Axis of Stupid.

People from other categories of Christianity e.g. Catholics just don't give Israel that much thought. Aside from being a geopolitical doomsday bomb, it's just not that important.
 

Everything Little Tommy Needs To Know About Politics

(to be read aloud with a thick outer borough accent)

Dear Tommy,

So, I hear you wanna grow up to be President. This is good; I must get half my business this way. I want you to do as much dama- uh, BE AS SUCCESSFUL as possible, so let me help you get started with some inside information:

All is not as it seems. This democracy thing started off as a disgustingly noble idea, but with some artful misdirection on my end, it's now turning into a squalid shit-heap just like the rest of human history. My minions among the living, known to you as the 'Ruling Class,' are now in league with the Religious Right in such a way that the American Democratic Ideal has been reduced to a mythology.

Go outside and look around your neighborhood. See all the pretty houses with the fussy lawns? SUVs in the driveways; kids with too many toys; TVs murmuring in just-so living rooms. These people are slaves. A few of them know it, but most of them don't. Hell, they don't want to know it; the easy marks are always afraid of the truth. You need to pay attention to the lies these people are telling themselves, because wrapping yourself in those lies is the secret to becoming their master.

Notice the schmucks that go to church and put little fishes and shit on their road boats. Study them carefully. These boobs are telling themselves the biggest lie of all -- the one that will bankroll your every egomaniacal fantasy. I'm especially fond of these people for two reasons: 1) the herd instinct is their entire mentality; 2) they blanket the North American continent like flies on shit. With the proper handling, they can be made to unite behind almost any agenda, and their domination of huge numbers of voting districts means that when they do they become a terrifying political force. Thanks to the ambitions of people like you, my young friend, they HAVE and they ARE...

All of which leads to certain matters you should address before you begin your career in earnest. These suckers have all been told to 'value education,' and most of them imagine they do, but in fact they despise people who actually THINK, versus those who just mindlessly follow the Rules, like they do. If they see any sign that you're a person who actually thinks, your career will be toast, okay? All this is exactly according to my plan; keeps the goddamn Liberals in Never-Never Land, right where they belong.

So if you want your ambitions to be more than just a fading twinkle in Mommy's eye, you're gonna have to start living by these Rules, see, and I'm telling you this because already you're screwing this pooch:

Rule number one:

Presidents are born and raised in NormanRockwellville, USA.

Since you're NOT, you need to go there right now and whack some kid so you can assume his identity. And make sure it's not just any kid; lineage will be important to those who will rubberstamp your rise to power. It's too bad your dad isn't a CIA high-roller -- you could just point your chubby little finger at some rich kid and then Daddy would make him go boom-boom, big time. Ah well. Let me know when you find your new hometown, and I'll see what I can do.

For obvious reasons, the best states to be from are all in the Bible Belt, and this is where you should go. Don't go anywhere near the Northeast; all these chumps think it's one gigundo city, and view all Northeasterners as sodomites. That's why no president has come out of the Northeast for over forty years, which is exactly how I plan to keep it. Another thing: quit with all the big words and grammar and shit. These hicks want presidents who are veritable paragons of hickitude, so you need to develop a 'yokel from over yonder' kind of persona. Trust me on this. Also, collect guns. And start cultivating sneaky, disparaging opinions of commies, niggers, and faggots.

Don't worry too much about the Bible boobs -- once you have them believing you're an authentic product of the "American Heartland" and all that crap, they'll just gulp down any horseshit you hit them with. After all, these people's defining characteristic is they believe what they're told to believe.

That's about everything you need to get past this invincible voting block I've created. The other party you'll need to win over is a much harder nut to crack: the multigigabazillionaires who are your TRUE constituency. In the presidential role, these people demand a shallow mouthpiece with no ability to comprehend history or develop original ideas -- too threatening! Satisfying them will require more than just acting stupid; you must actually BE stupid. You have an advantage here in that, due to your tender age, your nervous system isn't yet fully developed. Instead of allowing that development to proceed without incident, you can easily derange and retard it by jacking yourself up with massive amounts of certain substances. Alcohol and cocaine are a proven combination. As for obtaining this stuff in large quantities, again I have to say it's a pity your dad isn't a CIA big shot...

Once you've entered the career phase, you will be more and more visible to the public, so put some effort into maintaining the illusions that got you there in the first place. First of all, you have to keep all the milling morons as convinced as ever that you too are a card-carrying superstitious imbecile. Fortunately, this is a task any shit-for-brains can handle: just keep a few Lordy-Jesus types on the payroll to represent the millions of boobs you're shystering, soak up as much of their biblical horseshit as you can stand, and regurgitate choice bits in the presence of as many people as possible, hopefully into lots of microphones. Piece a cake! In addition to puking religious homilies, you should build them into laws whenever you can. This is what the boobs want to see most, and what the hell -- they're only laws! It's not like these are ever applied to ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY MATTERS!

This Glory of God shtick is most of what's needed to satisfy your keepers, as well, especially if it's done earnestly, as if your brain really is a fried canoli. Never forget that the image you present to the people shoveling money at you is your only real priority. If they ever suspect that the victims aren't putty in your hands, or that you aren't putty in theirs, you'll end up like the Kennedy Brothers, and for the same reason -- commie faggot assholes!

Oh, one more thing: DO NOT FAIL to observe a certain bit of malarkey the Bible freaks take very seriously, though they never bring it up in public: according to a certain interpretation of scripture very popular among lunkheads, the zionist conquest of the Middle East is a key sign that all the Second Kingdom bullshit is about to hit the fan. In other words, the boobs all think Israeli tanks driving over babies and shit is simply God's will made manifest. Fuckin rubes, go figure! So if you were to, say, stand up and condemn the recent actions of Sharon and the IDF, all the nut-jobs would instantly KNOW:

Random nut-job #1:

Remember that shameless bible-thumping demagogue we voted into office last year?

Random nut-job #2:

Which one?

RNJ #1 (using a palmtop):

Uh ... number four thousand seven hundred and ... eighty three.

RNJ #2:

Oh yeah. The one with the sword.

RNJ #1:

Right. Well, it turns out he's been criticizing Israel!!
Yes! He isn't spellbound by the Glory of God's Word!!!!

RNJ #2 (brandishing a gun):

Please stop before I have to shoot both of us! That son of a bitch!!
When he goes straight to hell I hope Satan shoves a white-hot crucifix up his ass!!!

Again and again!!!!

THROUGHOUT ETERNITY!!!!!

See there -- they'll turn on you just like that, bing! And your prospects for re-election will fizzle. And the Forbes 400 will stop shoveling money at you. Now how will you continue to realize your every childish egocentric fantasy? No more hookers and cocaine?? Fuck that shit!

Don't take my word for any of this: go check out Senate resolution 247 ( www.ujc.org/content_display.html ) and House resolution 392. 94 of 96 Senators and 352 of 373 Representatives signed off on these pieces of shit. If there's one thing these people know, it's which buttcracks to slop their tongues into, so take a lesson.

The great thing about all this is that the Bible boobs, by clinging to their mealy-mouthed delusions, are actually engineering the total destruction of the planet! Ever since the Israelis got their own nukes, see, the Middle East has been like World War III all set to go, hair trigger style, so all these schmucks are really doing is pushing the whole enchilada right over the edge. I love it!

Okay kid, look, I gotta go. I been watching you steal money from your ma and shake down the little kids with a razor, so I know you got what it takes. You pay attention to this advice here, and you'll be in there, ya got it? If you ever need any help, like say some hippie rat-fuck liberal is giving you a hard time and you want them to disappear, you just say the word to your Uncle Lou -- I will be MORE than happy! And don't you worry about any crucifixes, white-hot or otherwise. I don't allow those down here.

Your Friend,

Lou C. Furr
 

God Gave Me Your Home

Becky Johnson, God told me to skin you alive and take your home. If you don't let me do it that will prove that you are against my people and my God. That will justify me skinning you alive.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

My definition of genocide includes involuntarily displacing people from their land, as when farmers have their trees uprooted by settlers taking over their farm that happens to be on the wrong side of the security wall. I'm really not sure how the Palestinians aquired the land they now occupy. Then again, I'm not sure how the land in Santa Cruz was aquired by the Beach Boardwalk either. It is disturbing to me to hear claims that the Jews in the area now called Israel/Palestine were displaced in or around 1929-1936-1948. If true, that would count as genocide against the Jews. I'm not sure that an eye for an eye is appropriate here however. It was my understanding that it was the Israeli govt that built the settlements and offered cheap housing to immigrant Jews and other immigrants. It seems to me that the Israelis continue to promote expansion of their territory by hook or crook. It is not outright rappid displacement, but gradual through various policies. This is why I was struck by the comparison of the Israeli conflict with the Native American problem in the US. Israel appears to be gradually slicing away teritory simillar to the way the US expanded and disrupted Indian territories in the 1800's. It would be interesting to see if the Gaza experiment mentioned really works, and Israel reverses its expansionist trend. Maybe Israel is not so closed minded after all.
 

Anyone can empty any definition of meaning

I pity you so much, it's hilarious. If every person on Earth is going to make up their own definitions, you might as well define a square as a circle. You're also confusing Palestine in its entirety west of Jordan with the disputed territories (i.e. "West Bank" and the Gaza strip). I didn't claim the Jews in all of Palestine were displaced in during 1929-1948. I told you they were ethnically cleansed from the disputed territories. And no, that does NOT count as genocide, though that doesn't detract from the crimes committed by local Arabs and Jordanians who destroyed 56 synagogues in Jerusalem's Old City and desecrated much of the ancient Jewish cemetery, and prevented Jews from accessing their holy sites in Jerusalem and Hebron until June 1967.

But there was an Arab attempt at genocide made by the "Palestinians" and Arabs from elsewhere in the Middle East in 1948. The day after Israel's independence declaration, 5 armies of neighboring Arab states augmented by contingents from several other Arab states invaded Israel to commit genocide (for real) and cleanse the land of Jews.

Much of the territory in Judea-Samaria or the "West Bank" is up to grabs and disputed. It NEVER belonged to the supposedly indigenous Palestinian population, much less exclusively. For Israelis to settle there is no less legitimate than for Palestinians to set up residential areas on the same locations.
 

See, John, there it is

You've tried hard to keep it nice and respectful, while sustaining and expressing your own convictions, and that just doesn't work with these people. They always turn nasty once it's clear you'll keep resisting their bullshit, because their own racist metaphysics is the only thing in the universe they value.

Here, assholes, try this for genocide:

www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Fatalities_Lists/Is_by_Pal_eng.asp

In their typical way, they rigged the game for you going into this "debate" because they framed it as "how many have the IDF killed." Most of the genocide is actually being perpetrated by settlers, who tend to be incredibly vicious and essentially above the law.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Publicly stating a position for the enlightenment and encouragement of others is one thing, but if you people redirected even half of all this energy into real actions instead of dumping it down the rat hole of an Indymedia thread, I wonder what might change out in the real world where injustice is a tangible, bleeding, starving, suffering thing instead of merely a subject over which to argue.
 

Possibly racist metaphysics: accusing "settlers" of genocide

The aptly named "Fuck these pricks" -- expressive of a sentiment I've been harboring for some time now -- refers us to a partial list of the Israeli intifada casualties by B'tselem as an example of genocide. I guess that mistake (Israelis instead of Palestinians, but no genocide) offsets the effect of the text preceding that link.

The patently hilariously absurd claim that the Jewish residents (settlers) have committed most of the "genocide" -- well, if that statement didn't originate in genuine metaphysical hatred for some of those Jews, I don't know what does.
 

Name one village which an Israeli settlement displaced

Uprooting a tree is not genocide. Displacing a people from their land is not genocide. More Jews were displaced from Arab countries following the 1948 war than Palestinian Arabs. About 900,000 Jews were purged from Arab countries, their property confiscated without compensation. Israel took them all in. They haven't been refugees since the early 50's.

By contrast, the Arabs that fled Israel in 1948 were NEVER integrated into their host countries--Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt--- but left to languish is squalid camps, simply to be used as PR against Israel.

John---you have not provided a single example of genocide committed by the Israeli govt.

You don't have a clue how the disputed territories of the West Bank (called Judea and Samaria by the Jewish people for thousands of years) came to "belong" to the Palestinian people.

Nor have the Israelis practised "an eye for an eye" here. Israeli policy has always been driven by either a mini-Marshall plan for the Palestinians (1967-1993) or their own self-defense with the protection of human life as the highest value.

The Palestinians, who you support unquestioningly hold the suicide "martyr" as exemplifying the highest value in Palestinian society.

Are you for life or death?

If you are for life, you should be supporting Israel.

Israel has built lots of housing for the Palestinians. The neighborhood where Rachel Corrie died was built by the Israelis and its not the only one.

The settlements include Jewish communities that have been on the West Bank and in Gaza sometimes for centuries. The newer settlements were either built on empty land (hence no displacement of any Palestinians) or on land in which the Palestinians livig there were compensated--even in cases where "title" to the land was fairly unclear.

To prove this---- I challenge you to give a single example of a Palestinian village or town that was displaced by a Jewish one. If you can't find a single example, I expect you to come back here and retract your statement.

Why can't there be Jewish communities in the West Bank, even if the land turns into a Palestinian State? There are lots of Muslims in Israel (20% of the population). Why can't there be Jews in Palestine?

If you are against having any Jews in Palestine, then you favor ethnic cleansing as long as its Jews who are being ethnically cleansed.
 

Jewish settlements are on only 1.7% of the West Bank

Reply to F**k those Pricks:

you wrote: "Most of the genocide is actually being perpetrated by settlers, who tend to be incredibly vicious and essentially above the law." Of course the link you provided actually documented "settler" Palestinians committing murders against Israelis.

So where is the list of Palestinian deaths at the hands of the "evil" Israeli settlers?

BTW the settlements, which some here think justify the suicide bombings against Israeli civilians are on 1.7% of the land of the West Bank with municipal borders governing only 6.8% of the land. Why these Jewish communities that have displaced NO Palestinians are justification for the murder of innocent civilians is beyond me.
 

Well, that wasn't the page I wanted

The following data is adapted from a b'Tselem data sheet available at
www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Al_Aqsa_Fatalities_Tables.asp

First, the Israeli deaths. This includes all the people listed in the page I posted by mistake earlier. The second number represents that portion of the first number that were minors under age 18:

09/2000 1 0
10/2000 10 0
11/2000 18 0
12/2000 8 0
01/2001 6 1
02/2001 4 0
03/2001 2 1
04/2001 3 0
05/2001 12 2
06/2001 8 1
07/2001 7 1
08/2001 12 0
09/2001 9 0
10/2001 4 0
11/2001 8 2
12/2001 11 1
01/2002 3 0
02/2002 27 4
03/2002 37 0
04/2002 33 1
05/2002 7 3
06/2002 20 5
07/2002 18 4
08/2002 6 0
09/2002 7 0
10/2002 7 2
11/2002 17 0
12/2002 7 1
01/2003 5 0
02/2003 8 0
03/2003 6 0
04/2003 5 0
05/2003 10 0
06/2003 9 0
07/2003 0 0
08/2003 4 0
09/2003 5 1
10/2003 6 0
11/2003 4 0
12/2003 2 0
01/2004 5 0
02/2004 1 0
03/2004 1 0
04/2004 2 0
05/2004 19 4
06/2004 2 0
07/2004 2 0
08/2004 1 0
09/2004 9 0
10/2004 3 0
11/2004 0 0

Totals: 421 34


Now compare this with what's happened to Palestinians:


09/2000 15 4
10/2000 102 29
11/2000 110 40
12/2000 51 10
01/2001 18 2
02/2001 20 4
03/2001 26 5
04/2001 24 8
05/2001 45 7
06/2001 13 4
07/2001 34 7
08/2001 34 4
09/2001 62 12
10/2001 82 7
11/2001 36 9
12/2001 67 14
01/2002 24 2
02/2002 76 7
03/2002 239 21
04/2002 249 26
05/2002 44 12
06/2002 59 11
07/2002 40 13
08/2002 52 11
09/2002 49 9
10/2002 62 21
11/2002 45 12
12/2002 64 12
01/2003 53 12
02/2003 69 11
03/2003 82 15
04/2003 58 12
05/2003 60 18
06/2003 60 5
07/2003 4 1
08/2003 24 3
09/2003 33 7
10/2003 57 14
11/2003 31 11
12/2003 48 10
01/2004 27 8
02/2004 51 3
03/2004 80 18
04/2004 53 16
05/2004 112 35
06/2004 39 6
07/2004 57 17
08/2004 39 9
09/2004 113 26
10/2004 140 24
11/2004 42 6

Totals: 3,074 610

Israel killed 7 times as many Palestinians, but out of these 18 times as many were kids.

It's the killing of so many children, especially, that gets people mad enough to call Israel's policy "genocide." While it may not meet the body count criterion, an outraged response is absolutely justified. Palestinian killings of Israeli children are incidental and very rare, while the opposite occurence merits description as deliberate, malicious, and routine. The death of Iman al-Hams epitomizes this ( see www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml ). We know about Iman only because two IDF soldiers who witnessed her murder were themselves so disgusted by it they ratted the killer out. How many times have such things happened when no one with a conscience was present? Yes, I've seen all the vile apologist drivel about this before, and I don't care to see it again.

Ya know, On second thought, GO RIGHT AHEAD. 'Educate' us...

Merriam-Webster defines genocide as "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group." This doesn't say "killing," it says "systematic destruction." In non-lethal ways, especially, Israel's policy satisfies this definition. Its impacts on the Palestinian economy, social fabric, and morale, for example, are at the same time systematic, deliberate, and intensely destructive.

For that matter, even if you put 'killing' in this definition, it still doesn't entail 'killing all.' is 3,000 people in 4 years not enough?
 

Holy smokes! That's outright manipulation!!

For starters...I don't know why B'tselem stopped counting the dead at November last year. That however doesn't excuse using only their data. And you're obviously omitting the Israeli casualties of the suicide bombers within Israel proper (and also a few hundred Palestinian casualties of course)!! Talk about gall!!!

So what have we now? The Israeli death toll has been trimmed down to 421 (!!!) whereas the anti-Israel www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html puts it at 1,041!!! (Note that both count since Sep 29 instead of Sep 27, but that's a minor issue here.)

You're way off the mark with your assertions about how Palestinian children get killed as opposed to the manner Israeli kids do, so you're about to read some more apologia.
When looking, one the one hand, at the Israeli side of casualties, fact is that murders of Israeli children have become far less frequent ONLY due to the security measures the Israeli military and police forces have taken. Just recently a 17 year old girl was murdered by a Qassam rocket; just a few months ago 4 kids were shot point blank along with their mother. Murder of Israeli kids occurred much more frequently prior to 2004, at times in a much more savage manner than those 4 children's murder (e.g., bashing their skulls beyond recognition). Those Israeli minors have been invariably murdered viciously, as you put it.
On the other hand, most Palestinian children killed are either combatants or unintended victims killed when combatants are targeted. Murdered children like 13 year old Iman al-Hams are a very rare exception. While there may have been a few other cases where Palestinian kids were murdered, no evidence, much less conclusive, exists to justify calling this phenomenon "routine".

To continue: I don't know why Merriam-Webster doesn't specifically mention murder or killing, but common sense dictates you cannot commit genocide without murdering a VERY substantial percentage -- at least 50,000 (*) people -- of a given population that has strong common denominators bounding its members together. It's ridiculous to assume genocide can be accomplished mainly through non-lethal ways.
Many of course believe Israel has been trying to destroy the Palestinian economy and society and break the collective Palestinian morale in a deliberate and systematic manner, but no level-headed and serious pundit in Israel -- not even among the leftists -- would agree with that.

__________________________________________________

(*) The reason I used 50,000 as the bottom figure for genocide is because various international bodies began considering the Darfur massacre a genocide when that death toll was reached.
 

Some alternate stats on deaths of Israelis and Palestinians

Fatality numbers from September 2000 to May 2002 show that 2.8% of the Palestinian dead were women. 25% of the Israeli dead were women. 11.7% of the Palestinian dead were minors under age 15 while 57.7% of the Israeli dead were minors under age 15.

I'm sorry I don't have a more current breakdown of death statistics. If I find one that is more current, I will post it.
 

More recent stats for you to brand "Zionist" and then ignore

Breakdown of Fatalities: 27 September 2000 through 1 May 2004

TOTAL DEATH TOLL THRU MAY 2004
Palestinians 2806 Israelis 921

Number of Palestinians who were female 126
Number of Israelis who were female 285

Number of Palestinians Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side 985 of which 91 were female
Number of Israeli Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side 715 of which 280 were female

Palestinian Combatants killed by Opposite Side 1326
Israeli Combatants killed by Opposite Side 187

Palestinian People killed by actions of own side 365
Israeli People killed by actions of own side 22

Palestinian Non-Combatants below age 12 80
Palestinian Non-Combatants below age 12 36

Palestinian Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29 535
Israeli Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29 176

Palestinian Non-Combatants Aged >= 45 82
Israeli Non-Combatants Aged >= 45 226

source: www.ict.org.il
 

Deaths of Children and contributing factors

"Israel killed 7 times as many Palestinians, but out of these 18 times as many were kids."

Outrageous, right?

But using the stats I in my previous post which have been broken down between men and women, minors and adults, combatants and non-combatants, AND factors in those killed by their own side, those numbers, if accurate, indicate that:

1) Israel has killed 2.7 times as many Palestinians
2) Israel has killed 2.2 times as many children age 12 and under
3) WDI makes no provision for minors who were armed combatants at the time of their deaths yet numerous instances of kids throwing rocks, carrying ordinance, or firing weapons have been documented.

Israel has always contended that innocent deaths are accidental and every effort is taken to prevent them. Sadly, many young Palestinians, especially boys, are encouraged to take up arms, throw stones, and become suicide bombers. Undoubtedly these deaths have been included in the statistics of deaths of children, but it is not fair or rational to condemn Israel, when the culpability surely lies with those adults who promoted these practices.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

You Are All Sick Fucks. Maybe if all you people put some of this energy into finding solutions, instead of trying to out do each other....
Stop ALL The KILLING and noone will have to argue about who killed more!
 

In addition...

No honest pundit can consider 3000 casualties over 4 years genocide when the overwhelming majority of these were either combatants or collateral damage. If the intifada rages on for a few hundred additional years, a Palestinian death toll exceeding 50,000 will surely be reached, but it couldn't be credibly labelled genocide if Israel sticks with its current rules of engagement, which are, like it or not, the most benign of the armies currently engaged in conflicts the world over. What has occurred in Darfur (and certainly Rwanda) is deliberate and systematic massacre that occurred within a very short time span.

To "sick of you all" I suggest to aim his/her fury at the pathetically ignorant anti-Zionists on this site. If it weren't for all the crap they regularly spill here, I would be hardly saying anything. Really, why are these supposed peace activists wasting so much time and energy trying to outwit people like Becky Johnson and myself?
 

re: 'sick of you all'

Oh, but guy, the zios don't want to 'find solutions.' They want to keep everything just as it is, with the palis killing mad and lashing out in nihilistic rage. It's what sustains their prime excuse for killing "terrorists" year after year, until every Pali with a trace of political spine is dead. This is the same eugenics program used by U.S. genocidal bigots on populations of indigenous victims for 229 years, present action in the Persian Gulf being only the latest of hundreds of examples.

Meanwhile, zionist operatives like CT and Becky need to run around and try to stifle any analysis that might threaten this plan. I for one am outraged by the policing of leftist sites by these blatant supremacists, and I'll keep combatting them whenever I see it. I'll shut up when they shut up, and if that's never then so be it.

What's most telling about their "rebuttals' to my last point is that neither one really suceeds in reversing the impact of those statistics. Both their sources ALSO indict Israel much more than Palestine, especially when you add in the 'per-capita factor' (Israel has 4.8 million Jews; the occupied territories have 3.4 million Palestinians). But of course Becky and CT are slimy snakehole-slithering ideologues, so they both posture as if they've scored another big coup.

It's really quite interesting that CT points the reader to www.ifamericansknew.org . Absolutely, positively, go check it out, it's great. Check out their home page overview, though, not just the single-issue page he gives you. The site www.concert4palestine.org has an even punchier point-by-point comparative analysis ( www.concert4palestine.org/goliath/c.html ) and also a great historical overview of the 57-year orchestrated destruction of Palestine ( www.concert4palestine.org/palestine/c.html ). The last is an essay in the criminality of both the Israeli state and its Western imperial sponsors.

CT's reference to ifamericansknew.org is interesting because this can only mean he had no other choice. To 'contradict' my stats, he HAD to show you an "anti-zionist" source because the genocide-promoting sources he prefers don't trade in such comparisons at all -- they're inherently too damaging. All of this is useful in weighing his remarks about "honest Israeli pundits" -- as if in his hands this is anything but an oxymoron.
 

Another reason Becky and CT won't give up

The people who write their paychecks are watching this thread.
 

Your arguments from before are crushed and you know it

Your only recourse is hollow flaming. And as usual you dish out the Israel-hating cornucopia of delusions.

Your pitiful rants just crack me up. You're wrong on all counts, including about me in particular.
 

Why the Palestinian death toll is higher than the Israeli death toll

More Nazis died in World War II than Americans. Did that mean the Germans were the victims and the Americans the perpetrators?

Obviously to really understand what is happening we need more information.

Israel has done everything possible to avoid hurting innocent civilians. It targets terrorists who intentionally (not accidentally) hurt women and children. Palestinian terrorists not only detonate themselves in Pizzarias, buses, and nursery schools but also use Palestinian children as human shields. Israel laments the accidental casualties of war. In contrast, Palestinians (and not just the terror groups) take to the streets and celebrate Israeli or American casualties.

Palestinians are taught that if they are killed by the IDF while fighting, they will be instantly transported to paradise and be rewarded with 72 willing virgins. They can see the PA govt. handing out $25,000 checks to the families of suicide bombers. They can see streets and schools named after "Martyrs for HOly Jihad". This means, that especially among young men aged 14 - 29, there is great pressure to wage individual or group attacks at any Israeli, soldier or civilian including acts which could easily get them killed.

The Israelis on the other hand value life ---every life---and take great measures to protect the lives of their own citizens as well as their own soldiers.

The differential in the death toll does not prove that the Israelis are at fault.

The fact that you grossly inflated these numbers show you are willing to use falsified information to make your point rather than arrive at the ultimate truth about the situation.
 

Warning: mucho bullshit being exploded here

"More Nazis died in World War II than Americans. Did that mean the Germans were the victims and the Americans the perpetrators?"

You seem to be using 'Nazis' and 'Germans' interchangeably here. If you could get over your reflexive hatred of WWII Germans for one minute, you might see that all sides of that conflict qualify as BOTH perpetrators and victims. WWII was NOT about the Holocaust, okay? Get over yourself. It was just one of the larger upheavals in a multigenerational contest among superpowers to see who would claim the big enchilada, the entire planet, as their empire. This contest began with WWI and is still raging. All the big players were much more equivalent than your goo-goo baby idea of history allows. The only reason you know every overwrought detail of how evil the Germans were is because they lost, so they didn't get to write the history.

Did the evils of the Nazi party excuse the horror of Dresden? No. The Germans had already lost the war at that point; Dresden was just pure viciousness. I suppose YOU think Dresden was justified, but that's because this is one of that constellation of subjects in which you will never think freely and without malice.

And then there's what the U.S. did to Japan: 67 Dresdens, including the two that were achieved by dropping single devices. Funny, isn't it, how the schoolbooks never discuss the Holocaust of Japanese civilians... As for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan had already lost the war; again, we didn't really need to do that. The canned apologia for it doesn't hold up either, because nor did we need to invade them. We had already secured a total blockade around their islands and were destroying their last military resources; we could have just closed them off and starved them into submission. The only really plausible explanation for the atomic bombings is that they were experiments, the most monstrous in world history. They make Mengele's work look almost innocent by comparison. This fits perfectly not only with the realities of that historical moment (vs the mythologies) but also with the monstrous experimental culture that prevailed within the Pentagon, Manhattan Project, and AEC, starting then and continuing afterward for at least two decades. This is massively documented in the book "The Plutonium Files."

You see, we didn't take Hitler down because he was "the Bad Guy." No, no, no, goo-goo baby. We did that because he was a RIVAL. We did that so we could rip the Global Domination ball out of his hands and run it all the way back to HIS end-zone.

The kind of total bastards who play this global domination game don't care about the Holocaust, any more than they care about the equally vile U.S. genocide of Native Americans in the 1800s. This is a personality type that revels in absolutely amoral depths of corruption, i.e. "pragmatism," and is able to rationalize anything to itself. If you imagine Israel has set Jews free from such people, you are a perfect fucking fool. Sharon is such people; George Bush is such people; the entire class that dominates international power transactions is such people. Their psychology is a black cancer on the earth, and they're proving it now by rebuilding the menace of fascist global empire right before your eyes. Everyone knows this but the zionist Jews and the shithead Americans, who see it benefiting them, just like the Germans did...

Join ranks with these megalomaniacs, and you relinquish your soul. The whole zionist movement is just a big pawn for them, another mass of people they manipulate by whipping up their bigotry because bigotry is custom-made for that. It's how you get them to fight wars at all. Your zio-God Leo Strauss said nothing less. He was one of them.

"Israel has done everything possible to avoid hurting innocent civilians."

Iman al-Hams, Jeff Hurndall, Rachel Corrie, Sabra & Shatila, Deir Yassin, al Qibya, a hundred zionist terror bombings, etc., etc., tell me that this is a lie. Again, you're painting a simplistic binary picture when the real world is much more complicated and ambiguous.

If you had said "Israel has done everything possible to avoid hurting innocent civilians WHILE PURSUING THE HIGHER PRIORITY OF TAKING EVERY SQUARE INCH OF BRITISH-MANDATED PALESTINE," that would have been a hell of a lot closer to the truth. Doing "everything possible" to avoid hurting them would include things like rolling back the territorial map to the 1947 partition plan, or never gobbling that land up in the first place. In addition to being the legally honorable thing to do, I suspect an olive branch this gargantuan would pacify them tremendously. Hell, even returning their territories to the Green Line would probably work. It's not that it's "impossible" to do such things, it's just that it's anathema to the thing you relentlessly refuse to acknowledge, i.e. the pig-headed religio-bigot agenda that is zionism's true heart. "We want what we want and this is only about us and we will never acknowledge injustice in this area unless it's injustice to US that we can use to manipulate YOU." You're so far into this Sherwood Forest of lies, you don't even fucking know what daylight looks like anymore.

"Palestinians are taught that if they are killed by the IDF while fighting, they will be instantly transported to paradise and be rewarded with 72 willing virgins."

Yeah I've seen this dehumanizing propaganda before. It's very telling that you accept it uncritically. If you did not despise these people so viscerally, you might recognize that no one living a good life in an intact society would find this the least bit compelling. It may be the reality of how suicide bombers are recruited, but what tips the scales to make it actually work is the past six decades of ever-expanding humiliation under the jackboots of a blatant imperial project, combined with the prospect of subjugation and cultural annihilation in the future. Their other option is to wage war down to the last man by throwing their lives away in nihilistic acts of defiance. I believe you've bragged that Israeli Jews would do the same thing, and I'm sure they would. Which further illuminates your failure to recognize what it's really about. In your moral universe, Jews are to be identified with and empathized with, and Palestinians simply aren't. This makes it impossible for you to engage with them constructively. For one thing, they're NOT stupid, they're NOT animals, and they're always going to pick up on it and react in kind. I'm sure the same charges can be leveled against them, but the childish dialogue of entrenched resentments never ever resolves anything. You have ALL the power, which you've used mercilessly to take and take and take from them; this saddles you with most of the burden of making peace by giving some of it back. This is far and away the most substantive thing that could happen, and it's all on you.

When I see you making some such REAL concession instead of using every new situation to slam another shank up their ass and break it off so you can scream "terrorists! wuAAAAAuh!" every time they consequently go nuts, I'll believe you're sincere about "finding solutions." Until then, I have no real reason to accept this. That was addressed to you, CT.

"The fact that you grossly inflated these numbers show you are willing to use falsified information to make your point rather than arrive at the ultimate truth about the situation."

Uh-huh. The 'ultimate truth' of those numbers still being that your side is incriminated most, which you still absolutely refuse to acknowledge, so what does that show?
 

The war in Palestine is caused by the extreme injustices

Becky Johnson hates Palestinians and thinks that some non-existent all-knowing "God" in the sky gave Palestine to the Zionists. With this she denies that the Palestinians were the original inhabitants that had a vibrant culture, agriculture, and civilization before the Zionists began murdering, terrorizing, and evicting them from their land.

She says this is not true, that there is archeological evidence from 3,000 years ago… blah, blah, blah. Archeological evidence? So what? There is also evidence of Homo erectus inhabiting the land about 700,000 years ago. This is just relevant to the debate on whether or not Palestinians should have equal rights to Jews.

The nonsense "logic? of Becky Johnson generally refutes itself.

Then Becky Johnson had to come up with this one: "More Nazis died in World War II than Americans. Did that mean the Germans were the victims and the Americans the perpetrators?"

The difference you lunatic Zionist is that the Nazis had power and the Palestinians do not.

Yet the Zionists will claim that the little PA Bantustans with no base for an economy and their hand picked Uncle Tom PA capitalist leaders constitute Palestinian power.

The war in Palestine is caused by the extreme injustices of the Zionist government. It is not a result of something inherently evil in the character of the Palestinian people, as these raving Zionists would have us think.
 

This is addressed to you, "F*** these pricks"

Apart from the realm of opinions which is separate from facts and therefore everybody is entitled to their own, you're wrong about more than 80% of what you claim are the facts of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Yes, Rachel Corrie, Sabra & Shatila and Deir Yassin are all lies.

Your post is an astounding mosaic of historical facts, lies, personal opinions (at time masquerading as fact), delusions, moral equivalence and apology for terror against innocents.

Becky Johnson is correct on each assertion she's made about Palestinian society which you're contesting and not even willing to examine critically. I've seen and heard ample proof for the veracity of these claims over the last decade also on the Israeli media. You see, I've been in Israel decades, you haven't. I can honestly corroborate Becky Johnson's correct claims about Palestinians and the PA whereas you can't credibly refute them. You're in acute denial and by that I don't mean the river in Egypt.

To his credit, I must say John Thielking has been willing to be open the possibility he didn't know it all and that he might be wrong about certain conceptions he had had. You, conversely, are too steeped in your anti-Israel dogma to recognize, let alone admit, your misconceptions and repudiate the lies you repeat.
 

Another Red Herring from a F*ckin' Pr*ck

to F**k these pricks: You missed my point (probably intentionally) that simply a higher death toll does NOT prove who the main culprit was. You're turning this into a geo-political discussion of World War II shows that you can't challenge the many arguments I laid out for you.

As for your brilliant argument "If you imagine Israel has set Jews free from such people, you are a perfect fucking fool." why don't you ask the Israelis if they are happy the Zionists set up the State of Israel. Its really not my place to judge that. I am not Jewish or Israeli.

Then this gem: "The whole zionist movement is just a big pawn for them, another mass of people they manipulate by whipping up their bigotry because bigotry is custom-made for that."

BECKY: You want to dismantle the entire Jewish State of Israel--the only Jewish state in the world. That makes you look like a bigot to me. An anti-Jewish bigot.


BECKY: About the 13 yr old girl killed by the IDF "on her way to school" This is from an AP news story: "Soldiers fired at the girl, Iman al-Hams, as she approached a military observation post near the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip on October 5. The soldiers said they thought she was planting a bomb. The girl's family said she was on her way to school.

According to the five-count indictment, the officer approached the girl after she was shot and fired two rounds at her from close range in an outlawed practice known as "verifying the kill". He began walking away, turned around and shot her again, the indictment says.

The soldier's defence lawyer, Yoav Mali, said the girl was not innocent and had been there to "to take part in a terrorist attack".

BECKY: This incident just happened in October but there are already nearly 6,000 google hits almost all of them condemning the IDF.

But do we have all the facts?

First, she was in a forbidden zone clearly marked. Second, though she was on her way to school, she suddenly deviated from her route, and walked directly into a closed military area.
Third-the officer involved was exonerated because of the additional circumstances involved. The 13 yr old girl, who looked more like ten, walked directly towards the guard tower, ignoring warnings to leave, yelling angry things at the soldiers. This was only a day or two after two suicide bomb attacks so the soldiers were unusually jumpy. She then took her bookbag off and threw it in the direction of the officers. thats when she was shot.

What if cynical Palestinian militant groups talked her into being a suicide bomber? What if they told her to walk towards the tower and that the bomb was in her backpack?

They knew she would be shot and they could really publicize the "brutality" of the IDF "shooting a school girl on her way to school"
They knew in advance how ridiculous it would sound for the IDF to say that an unarmed schoolgirl walking to school was a lethal threat.

Hmmmmm. Thats exactly what they did do.

As for the soldier shooting her more than once. That is so brutal and shocking. But these soldiers encounter people wired with explosives every week. What would you do in the same situation?
 

The war in Palestine is caused by the extreme injustices

Reposted minus typos:

Becky Johnson hates Palestinians and thinks that some non-existent all-knowing "God" in the sky gave Palestine to the Zionists. With this she denies that the Palestinians were the original inhabitants that had a vibrant culture, agriculture, and civilization before the Zionists began murdering, terrorizing, and evicting them from their land.

She says this is not true, that there is archeological evidence from 3,000 years ago… blah, blah, blah. Archeological evidence? So what? There is also evidence of Homo erectus inhabiting the land about 700,000 years ago. This is just as relevant to the debate on whether or not Palestinians should have equal rights to Jews.

The nonsense "logic? of Becky Johnson generally refutes itself.

Then Becky Johnson had to come up with this one: "More Nazis died in World War II than Americans. Did that mean the Germans were the victims and the Americans the perpetrators?"

The difference you lunatic Zionist is that the Nazis had power and the Palestinians do not.

Yet the Zionists will claim that the little PA Bantustans with no base for an economy and their hand picked Uncle Tom PA capitalist leaders constitute Palestinian power.

The war in Palestine is caused by the extreme injustices of the Zionist government. It is not a result of something inherently evil in the character of the Palestinian people, as these raving Zionists would have us think.

As for Becky Johnson's support for the murder of a 13 year-old Palestinian child, people who think that her arguments may be persuasive would do well to ask Becky Johnson for sources on her endless stream of made-up facts.
 

Watch out you don't get struck down by a lightening bolt!

Steve Argue says: "Becky Johnson hates Palestinians and thinks that some non-existent all-knowing "God" in the sky gave Palestine to the Zionists. With this she denies that the Palestinians were the original inhabitants"

BECKY: I don't hate Palestinians. I have had Palestinians as guests in my home and on my tv show. I understand my denial means nothing to you.

I understand that YOU are not religious. But you just insulted 2 billion Christians, 1.3 Billion Muslims, and 14 million Jews. Are you really THAT much smarter than all of them? And frankly Steve, who the fuck really knows if there is a God or not?

The story goes that God gave Canaan to the Jews, not "Palestine" which was a name the ROMANS gave to ISRAEL after they burned down the (2nd) Jewish temple in JERUSALEM and killed every Jew they could find in 135 AD.

For a history "expert" you sure don't know much.

Steve, why arent there any archeological artifacts for Palestinians in the area of ancient Israel where Jewish artifacts are found in abundance? If the Palestinians are so "indigenous" wouldn't you find some tangible evidence of it? You switched to the argument of "who cares? it was so long ago" but bristled when I used the same argument for something that happened in 1982.

Thank-you for your admission that the death toll alone does not automatically determine who is at fault in a conflict. One must consider other factors as well.

I'm surprised you find Mahmoud Abbas "an uncle Tom." I thought he would be your boy. Look at his resume. He was the money-man for the murder of the Israeli Olympic team in Munich. He got his PhD for his essay on holocaust denial. While running for office, he was carried on the shoulders of members of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade who had warrants out for them by Israel. Also in his acceptance speech, he refered to Israel as the "Zionist enemy". You say he is an "Uncle Tom"? Well, since you are so much smarter than all of us, Steve, as you keep telling us, you must be right.

I think CT is right. The war in Israel is caused by Arab pride, envy, and greed.
 

Why did she drop her backpack?

This is from the Independent in the UK:

"The army admitted shortly after the shooting near the Girit outpost that it had been a mistake. The girl was carrying a bag which the army said that the soldiers had thought contained explosives, but which was found to contain schoolbooks. Although the family is at a loss to explain why she had wandered into a dangerous prohibited zone, they say she was on her way to school at the time."

CTV.ca says "She was killed on Oct.5, as she made her way to school. Her friends say that, because they were running late, they took a shortcut -- a route that ventured dangerously close to an area deemed off-limits by the Israeli army."

Why the two stories? Was she shot while "on her way to school" as the family claims?

Or was she "taking a shortcut dangerously close to the IDF off-limits area?

We need to look at a map and find where the school is, where her home is, and where the most direct route to the school is. Was she just cutting corners as the one "eyewitness" says. And what about her behavior of walking towards the guard tower? How do you explain that? Why would she "drop her backpack" if she was walking to school?

After reading nearly a dozen accounts of the killing (Steve calls it murder. But that is just his opinion. The Israeli courts have cleared him of the charges)there are still too many unanswered questions to automatically condemn the IDF soldiers involved. Soldiers who when interviewed afterwards were shaken up and told reporters that their "hearts ached for the little girl."
 

Zionist Johnson Says Killing Little Girls Is Good

No Becky Johnson, I did not say that I am smarter than everyone, but obviously I am smarter than you. Your thought is so riddled with stupidity as to be a waste of time to refute.

Your whole point on Nazi Germany versus America misses two key points. One, not all Germans were Nazis, especially the civilian victims of the U.S. bombing of Dresden, nor the victims of concentration camps. Two, the brunt of the war took place with the Soviet Union as a result of Nazi aggression against that country. Just as the Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany, they also paid for that victory against Nazism in many more lives than the United States.

If you want to compare casualties of Nazis you should count all civilians (German and otherwise) versus the Nazis. The Nazis killed more than the casualties they took. This is a similar comparison to what the Zionist government has been doing to the Palestinians.

As for your support for the murder of little Palestinian children you are as bad as a Nazi. I don’t care how scary looking a backpack of books looked on a 13 year-old girl to the soldiers that in a civilized society would be stationed to protect little girls. All the repeating of official Zionist lies will not prove a thing to those of us with our eyes open. The murder of this child is part of a deliberate pattern of targeting children for murder by the Zionist military.

And of course you think that the Uncle Tom leadership of the PA is putting up a fight against Israel, for this is also the official Zionist line and part of the excuse the Israeli government is using to go to war against the entire Palestinian people, killing their children in large numbers to demoralize them and attempt to force population transfers.

Equal Rights To Palestinians! Long Live The Intifada! Death to the Capitalist Governments of Israel, Jordan, and Egypt! End Billions of Dollars In U.S. Military Aid To Israel, Egypt, and Jordan! Forward to the United Socialist and Democratic Republics of The Near East! End U.S. Imperialism Through Socialist Revolution In The United States!
 

Blowing up more bullshit

CT: "You're in acute denial and by that I don't mean the river in Egypt."

Yeah, and when I say you're projecting, I ain't talking home movies.

BECKY: "You want to dismantle the entire Jewish State of Israel--the only Jewish state in the world. That makes you look like a bigot to me. An anti-Jewish bigot."

Look, bonehead, I've said this before: Israel is wildly destabilizing the entire global political equilibrium. There is no getting around the fact that Israel is far and away the largest grievance Islamists have with the West, is all but causative of this movements very existence, and as such is almost certainly the largest reason 9-11 happened. Take away Israel's existence, or our inconcievably huge support of same, and I daresay 9-11 would not have happened. 9-11 in turn has transformed the United States, the most powerful country in history, into a nation of reactionary "kill 'em all" meatheads led by a cabal of gloating overt fascists. You know what, Becky? ISRAEL ISN'T WORTH THAT. Israel isn't worth what this country is turning into now, isn't worth what this country will make the rest of the planet turn into simply by way of surviving. Unlike you, I don't make Israel the centerpiece of my entire belief system. I truly love this planet, I desperately want it to be whole and sane, so I don't want to see it spiral down the shitter just so 15 million Jews can get their age-old political fantasy fulfilled. And no, that's not about Jews. It could be 15 million Greenland Inuits. Take your 0.23 percent of humanity from wherever you wish, the same logic still holds.

When you insist that yes, that 0.23 percent should get everything they want, even if that means jackbooted global empire for the other 6.4 BILLION, well Becky, THAT'S WHAT I CALL BIGOTRY. You see, being a bigot doesn't just mean you hate some other group. Even more than that, it means your sympathies go out disproportionately to one particular group, usually your own.

If Israel's creation, existence, and posture were actually defensible, I don't think this case could be made, mainly because if that were so Israel would not have so severe a destabilizing effect.
 

No, you're the bullshitter

It's radical Islam, closely followed by the rogue Iranian regime trying to achieve nuclear capability, that's been jeopardizing the planet's stability. Al-Qaida would have perpetrated the 9-11 attacks even if Israel hadn't existed, for the main objective on their agenda is to destroy the entire Western way of life, to subjugate the whole globe to their radical version of Islam. Don't take my word for it -- ask the Islamists and Bin-Laden in particular whether or not they're troubled first and foremost by Western Freedom as a threat to their belief system. Likewise, the current Iranian theocratic regime would have attempted to develop a nuclear arsenal even if Israel hadn't existed. That regime knows Israel isn't a threat to Iran.

The one thing I concur with you and the clown Argue (who's just made himself even more of a laughingstock) about is that Israel shouldn't receive US foreign aid. But then, my condition for that to happen is the cessation of US foreign aid to the PA and Arab states.

What you fail to realize is, if the Bush administration hadn't started dealing with the Islamist threat, Israel would have had to step into the fray to protect itself from this menace, even if that meant conducting military operations anywhere around the globe.
The same goes for the Iranian threat. If Bush is ultimately remiss in his attempts to deprive Iran of nukes, Israel would have to send its air force to take out their nuclear facilities. Mark my words.

Read my lips: as long as significant numbers of Palestinians resist just like you to Israel's very existence and keep trying to murder and displace the Israeli Jews, there will be no Palestinian state and no honorable existence for Palestinian society, probably the most racist, indoctrinated in hatred and among the most violent worldwide.

Your comical quip to me is in lieu of a credible way to refute my previous arguments.
 

inteligence ??????

why is it that all the pro israel comments seem to well written by articulate people and all the pro palestinian comments are full of 4 letter words and blather ???
 

Articulate People?

A Zionist wrote earlier:

Becky Johnson and Critical Thinker and the other pro-Israelis are the only ones with any sense here. The Palestinians are only terrorists. These pinko communist Osama lovers should all die along with all of their Palestinian friends. God gave Israel to the Jews, not the communists and stinking greasy Arabs.

Becky Johnson said:

"I simply pointed out the only source for information about the people being injured by bullets was from a Palestinian source at the hospital."

She is right. The Palestinians are all a bunch of liars. Their words mean nothing, but these commies love them and eat up every word!

Israel treated Arabs well, and only gott their hatred. Now it is time for all of them to go.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

awake and aware begs the question... "why is it that all the pro israel comments seem to well written by articulate people and all the pro palestinian comments are full of 4 letter words and blather ???"

BECAUSE YOU AGREE WITH THEM.

To me, their comments are indicative of psychosis, and paranoia, but we all have our perspective, don't we.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

example of a really intelligent, zionist comment: (look up sarcasm on dictionary.com)

"The Palestinians are all a bunch of liars. Their words mean nothing,"
 

Possible, probable, and certain

It was tragic that the little 13 year old schoolgirl died when members of the IDF opened fire and killed her. But who is to blame?

Steve Argue would have us believe that it was "part of a deliberate pattern of targeting children for murder by the Zionist military."

First, if its deliberate, then why do all the directives given to IDF soldiers instruct them to take all efforts to avoid civilian deaths? Steve would have us believe that EVERY IDF member is keeping the REAL policy of the IDF secret. That's 186,500 troops and 30,000 reservists. Is this likely?

Next, he accuses me, a mother of three children herself, of having said that killing little girls is good (Steve has no children). I urge people to scroll back to see what I really said. There is nothing good at all about this situation. I just didn't rush in knee-jerk, string 'em up, judge/jury/executioner-style to automatically blame Israel. Note, CT has not rushed in to defend Israel either at this point, no doubt waiting for all of the information to be known before he draws HIS conclusion.

CONSIDER THIS:

We KNOW that there have been over 100 suicide bombers who have been successful(?!), many of them were under age 18. Many more who were caught before they could cause any harm. We know that recruiters started to use female suicide bombers at some point. In the Jenin incursion of 2002, a 10 year old boy was used as a suicide bomber.

None of us really knows what happened on October 5th. We can only look at the evidence and listen to the different witness statements, and wait to hear what the investigators and the courts say.

We must sort out what is possible, what is likely, and what is certain.

We can't ever get closer to the truth than that.

It's possible the IDF saw a little girl in the forbidden zone and saw it as the perfect opportunity to kill yet another Palestinian child. Its possible, but not likely.

It is possible that Iman al-Hams was recruited to be a suicide bomber. It's more than possible. It's likely.

It's possible that she was told there was a bomb in the bag when there wasn't. All parties agree, there was no bomb in her backpack.

All parties agree she walked into a forbidden zone and was warned to leave.

All parties agree, she dropped her backpack before she was shot.

Again I ask. Was the place where she was killed directly on the route to her school or was she way off the track? If she was way off the track, that means its likely she was put up to it.

If she was put up to it by cynical adults, who wanted to use her bullet-ridden body for all the PR it would generate, and all the anti-Israel sentiment it would generate, then the true culprits are those adults who put her up to it. If this is true, then that means she WAS murdered with the murderers being the adults who put her up to it.

One thing we all know for certain. If she was put up to it, then the murderers were Palestinian.
 

Incredibly sick

Becky, you state this

"All parties agree, there was no bomb in her backpack."

whilst slithering your way toward this:

"It is possible that Iman al-Hams was recruited to be a suicide bomber. It's more than possible. It's likely."

Here, I'll clear it all up for you: you're insane, bitch. No, really, I mean it this time. Absent any evidence that she actually had a bomb, your whole case that Iman was in fact a suicide bomber becomes pure conjecture of an incredibly vicious sort. This is your most hate-poisoned apologetic demonstration yet. Congratulations.

Likewise with CT's total categorical refusal to acknowledge the validity of Palestinian grievances and anger. When I read this:

"Palestinian society, probably the most racist, indoctrinated in hatred and among the most violent worldwide."

and juxtapose it with the real history of zionist land theft since 1947:

www.concert4palestine.org/palestine/c.html

I know the true dimensions of CT's hatred, which is the only meaningful way to describe an abscence of empathy this total.

Oh, you two disgusting shits are probably going to realize your sick dream of liquidating the West Bank entirely. You might nuke Iran, too. But don't go imagining these things will solve all your problems.

People as hateful as you two won't ever stop making new enemies...
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

Arguing about Jews and Israel is a foolish excercise. Israel was not created by Jews, or the United Nations, or Zionists. It was created by Allah (swt).
As revealed by Allah (swt) through his Final Prophet Muhamed (pbuh)and displayed for all to see in the Holy Qur'an, Israel belongs to the Jews:
THE HOLY QUR'AN SAYS:

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-10

It is ironic that it is Muslims both Arab and non-Arab who defy and deny the Will of Allah (swt)
For it was HIM who created Israel Masha'allah.
The Arab Muslim's quest for land and domination is contrary to His Will.
 

Hey, Asshole

"Your comical quip to me is in lieu of a credible way to refute my previous arguments."

What "arguments?" You didn't present any "arguments," you just puked forth a blanket dismissal in your tired familiar "I know everything" manner. Presenting an argument means taking definite positions, committing to details, sticking your neck out, etc. You did none of that, and because you didn't do it you didn't actually refute anything I said, either. You just imagine you did. This is your pattern; most of your "arguments" are shallow and facile in this same way. It's very symptomatic of severe narcissism.

You see, when you swagger around in your closed little world and regally declare your unqualified opinions, and then all of reality like buckles and contorts to mold itself to your preference, us mere mortals don't experience it quite the same way.
 

Re: No, you're the bullshitter

You know, it's really delightful how this "argument" of yours has its own refutation on multiple points built right into it. Thank you for this testament to the flimsiness and dishonesty of your thinking. For example, at one point you say: "... the current Iranian theocratic regime would have attempted to develop a nuclear arsenal even if Israel hadn't existed. That regime knows Israel isn't a threat to Iran."
Then two paragraphs later: "...if the Bush administration hadn't started dealing with the Islamist threat, Israel would have had to step into the fray to protect itself from this menace, even if that meant conducting military operations anywhere around the globe. The same goes for the Iranian threat. If Bush is ultimately remiss in his attempts to deprive Iran of nukes, Israel would have to send its air force to take out their nuclear facilities. MARK MY WORDS [emphasis added]."


So which is it, bullshit freak? Does Iran need to see Israel as a military threat or not? Make up your mind.

Similarly with your opening argument. You describe the Islamist posture toward the West in two different and conflicting ways.
First: "...the main objective on their agenda is to destroy the entire Western way of life, to subjugate the whole globe to their radical version of Islam."
And then: "...the Islamists and Bin-Laden in particular [are] troubled first and foremost by Western Freedom as a threat to their belief system."

So first you'd have me believe they're theocratic imperialists, then you're telling me their motivation is to defend their belief system from Western influence. At best, this is very muddled, and in truth its totally manipulative. I don't think our "freedom" has anything to do with it, because for one thing Westerners aren't half as free as ideologue shitheads like you pretend. What freedom is that? The freedom to work sixty hours a week so we can buy all this bullshit we don't need so all the other brainwashed morons will think we're cool? Wowee. What we are is privileged, which comes from living on the sugar-dumpling end of the global colonial order. There's a big difference. A narcissist like you will never understand the distinction, but there it is.

The natives of the Middle East have excellent reason to worry about the West screwing with them: that's all we've done there since before the Postmodern Era. Israel is front and center in all that. It started out as the centerpiece of our design to stymie the Arab reunification movement, and since then has made itself useful in lots of other ways. The Western empires just LOVE proxies, they help them look so innocent and nice... Then there's the toppling of Mossadheg in Iran in 1953, replacing him with one of the most vicious dictators of the 20th century, the Shah -- a total Western secular whore. Likewise in Iraq ten years later, when we toppled Qassem and installed the semi-fascist Ba'athists, more Western secular whores. And all the landings by Marines in the eastern Med in the late '50's, '60s, and '80s... The formal statement of geostrategic domination called the 'Eisenhower Doctrine'... The CIA's assassination plots against Nasser... our inhumanly obscene oil conquest in Iraq over the past 14 years, killing on the order of half a million people... Reagan's terror war against Libya... And of course all this Islamist stuff got a gigantic shot in the arm from the CIA's terror war on the Soviets in Afghanistan in the '80s... And the bases we set up in Saudi Arabia and then didn't want to relinquish... This is just off the top of my head. I could go on this way in lavish detail for about fifty pages.

There's a very simple reason for your refusal to acknowledge that any of this has contributed to Islamism: you're a manipulative lying asshole piece of shit. And you're just unshakeably convinced, in this symptomatic zionist way, that no one could possibly be smart enough to figure that out. Perhaps this comes from lying so thoroughly to yourself...

Your opening sentence even betrays the very thing you would deny: "It's radical Islam, closely followed by the rogue Iranian regime..." Okay, stop right there. First of all, this a false distinction. 'Radical Islam' and the Iranian theocracy are inseparable. Furthermore, the extremism of the 'rogue Iranian regime' is absolutely a product of Western policy toward that country over the past 60 years. Go back to 1979. The Shah. SAVAK. 26 years of rampant state-sponsored murder, torture, imprisonments, unspeakable brutality, religious and political suppression. Now go back to Mossadheg and his dream of a truly democratic Iran, a thing the Western empires would never allow. Enter Kermit Roosevelt, pedigreed U.S. aristocrat/spook. Presto chango no more Mossadheg...

The Iranian revolution is the all-time greatest example of a thing called 'blowback,' Mr. River in Egypt, and this is the framework in which all of Islamism exists. I don't think they're crazy, or that they want to take over the world, or that they "hate us for our freedoms" (puh-leez). Above all, I think they just want the West to get the fuck out of their faces and leave them alone. That's completely rational and legitimate. They may also be hysterical and dangerous now, but that's a pretty natural response to decades of upheaval and frustration. Your own people are hysterical and dangerous, too, so just stuff your knee-jerk denials up your ass. Getting out of their faces and leaving them alone is necessary if they're to recover their sanity. Iran, for example, has settled down considerably in the years since the Islamic revolution, even despite the West's best efforts to keep them suffering and crazy mad.

Of course, disengaging in this way would be absolutely contrary to the Western empires' agenda, so of course the rabid screaming zionist dupes will never so much as glimpse this logic...

Know what I mean, fuckhead?
 

To the morbid, hate consumed, foulmouthed Mr. Bullshit

Mr. Bullshit: "Likewise with CT's total categorical refusal to acknowledge the validity of Palestinian grievances and anger."

You took the liberty to reach such a sweeping conclusion without evidence. You know, by evidence I mean what it means outside of the world of Indymedia bullshitters.
I do empathize for example with the relatives of every Palestinian casualty of IDF and border police murder, or abuse. You don't know fuck about most of my sentiments, yet you act here as some sort of dimestore psychologist determining precisely what I feel. You're an idiot.

You quote me saying:
Palestinian society, probably the most racist, indoctrinated in hatred and among the most violent worldwide.

This has been true for as decade or so. This is a cold hard fact.


Mr. Bullshit: "I know the true dimensions of CT's hatred, which is the only meaningful way to describe an abscence [sic] of empathy this total."

You don't know beans, idiot. You're just a wannabe psychologist, that's all.


CT: Your comical quip at me is in lieu of a credible way to refute my previous arguments.

Mr. Bullshit: "What "arguments?" You didn't present any "arguments," you just puked forth a blanket dismissal in your tired familiar "I know everything" manner. " "You see, when you swagger around in your closed little world and regally declare your unqualified opinions, blah blah blah blah"

Whatever.


When you proceed to quote me on Iran and radical Islam, you yourself are pulling one heck of a manipulation pretending I'm refuting my own arguments and contradicting myself where's there's no contradiction so you can appear to have won the debate. But this is to be expected from someone who has divorced himself from reality, due either to communist ideology or extreme anti-Zionism, or both.


Mr. Bullshit: "A narcissist like you..."

uh ugh, the dimestore psychologist has spoken again.


Mr. Bullshit: "It started out as the centerpiece of our design to stymie the Arab reunification movement"

"Our design"? What are you, British? There was no American scheme to do any such thing back them, hateful lying lamer.


Mr. Bullshit: "Reagan's terror war against Libya..."

Some may be fascinated at how the hateful workings of your mind have managed to turn it 180 degrees around, but a bold faced lie remains a lie no matter how much you actually believe the crock you just spouted.


Mr. Bullshit: "There's a very simple reason for your refusal to acknowledge that any of this has contributed to Islamism: you're a manipulative lying asshole piece of shit. And you're just unshakeably convinced, in this symptomatic zionist way, that no one could possibly be smart enough to figure that out. Blah blah ..."

Again, Mr. Bullshit Hatemonger, you've jumped to conclusions courtesy of your morbid anti-Israel impulses. Had you asked me, I would have acknowledged some of these events had a certain influence on the emergence of Islamism. But you would seem to posit that Islamism's anti-Western, global subjugating agenda are a justified reaction, or at least excusable, and this is where our thoughts part ways. Of course, you put the brunt of the blame of the US-led West and Israel in particular, as if Israel shares some blame in the emergence of that phenomenon. That's simply Israel-hating baloney, at best. At worst, it's yet another manifestation of the idiotic "blame the victim" mentality that plagues the radical Left in Western countries, including in Israel.

You do have merit where you correct me, saying: "First of all, this a false distinction. 'Radical Islam' and the Iranian theocracy are inseparable" .
I partly accept this observation. The theocratic Iranian regime indeed is a radical Islamic one. But it's a Shi'ite one which doesn't share much of al-Qaida's agenda.

While Khumaini was alive and the Cold War was still being fought, the Iran's theocratic regime's Western apologists had considerable merit claiming its extremism was the necessary response to Western policy toward that country in the preceding decades. Not so since the early 1990s, Mr. Bullshit.


Mr. Bullshit: "I don't think they're crazy, or that they want to take over the world, or that they "hate us for our freedoms" (puh-leez). Above all, I think they just want the West to get the fuck out of their faces and leave them alone."

At least you're not trying now to pass your personal opinion off as fact. But you're nevertheless wrong. And get this, lamer: all the limits to freedom in the US and Israel notwithstanding, they're still a helluva better package deal than what the Tabilan offered and the Islamist vision al-Qaida is propagating.

My people -- and I assume by that you meant the Israelis -- have some valid reasons to be a bit hysterical given what millions of hatred driven, willfully ignorant, denial opting, Islamism apologizing people like you are capable of and would be causing Israel if it weren't for diplomatic protection the US extends to Israel. But dangerous the Israelis are not. You're simply somewhat echoing the absurd line subscribed top by most Europeans who said Israel is the greatest menace to world piece and stability. Anyhow, the truth remains -- that's bullshit.
I assume Israel was "dangerous" when it destroyed Iraq's nuclear facility in mid 1981 and saved itself and much of the planet from nuclear blackmail. I assume Israel will be just as "dangerous" if it winds up doing the same to Iran. But then again, maybe you'll make up some excuses for Saddam during the early 1980s along the lines of, "well, I don't think he was dangerous and would have tried to blackmail the West and Israel, or even Iran, with his nukes." Perhaps you have some similar excuses in the ready for the Iranian regime if they end up with offensive nuclear capabilities.

Stating the reasons of Islamism's growth and the argument over how much of it is the West's or even Israel's fault miss the point, which is that presently that movement poses the greatest threat to world piece and stability.


Mr. Bullshit: "Iran, for example, has settled down considerably in the years since the Islamic revolution, even despite the West's best efforts to keep them suffering and crazy mad."

You start a sentence correctly asserting a historical fact only to throw in a falsehood. The West hasn't done anything to cause Iran any hardship over more than a decade now. Sure, Iranian funds and assets are still frozen in US banks if I recall correctly, but if anything, the US has relaxed some of its economic sanctions against Iran, not the reverse. To say nothing of the other Western states who have been much more open to Iran than the US.

You and others posting to this IMC (and others of course) represent a malaise in Western life which is potentially very dangerous, one of whose facets is the attitude of appeasement of Islamism, rogue Muslim regimes threatening Israel and the West at just about any cost based on understanding them and their motives. Some of you underestimate or play down the Islamist threat and lulled us into complacency prior to 9-11. The West might be unable to triumph over Islamism because of your attitude, so you and your ilk are a grave danger to everyone who rejects the Islamic way of life.
 

Parting shot

Oh my God, my impulse is to build understanding with them and seek reconciliation and peace. How insane of me! Uh-huh.

The impulse you represent is immensely more dangerous, scramble-brained asshole: that which hates them unconditionally and would hound them to the ends of the earth. 100 years ago, nothing like Islamism existed, or if it did, it was an obscure fringe of nuts with no public following. What brought this movement into the Islamic mainstream was the clear presence in their midst of implacable anti-Arab bigots like yourself, armed to the teeth and eager to kill them wholesale given any excuse. Now that you've produced this reaction, you want to pretend you had nothing to do with it -- this is just another of your trademark lies. Motivated by hatred, of course, along with a virulent nationalism that is absolutely immune to honest analysis. Cuz you're just not honest.

I'm "blaming the victims?" How is it the Israelis qualify so clearly as "the victims" for you, relative to the groups they've opposed? Is it because of the Holocaust? Well the Palestinians didn't fucking do the Holocaust, did they, Einstein? This is the standard zionist formula: wave the Holocaust around and keep all the goy schmucks loaded up with huge ladle-fulls of 'Great Victim' schmaltz, when in fact the Holocaust HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. You're trying to play this shtick on the wrong guy. The Middle East is a separate scenario altogether, and in this one YOU are the transgressors. More and more people are discovering the truth of this all the time, and there's no stopping that; it's what good honest people are bound to do. You just keep right on screaming out your virulent hate-driven lies for all to hear. You'll only continue to alienate good people everywhere. That's why the only solid support you have left now is from American demagogues and their constituents, who tend to be either as corrupt and dishonest as you or just deeply stupid.

See you next time, asshole.
 

Thanks for proving just how much of a dolt you really are

You are probably a pacifist, guided by the same impulses that drove Chamberlaine to try to appease Hitler at the expense of Chechoslovakia to the detriment of the whole free world. We know what followed -- Hitler's appetite for conquest was further whetted, he overtook Chechoslovakia and then became emboldened to occupy much of Poland (in partnership with the USSR), a move that plunged the free world into a war it was fortunate to have won, but at what huge costs!

You'd rather the US and other Western powers take a similar approach toward al-Qaida and its followers even after what occurred on 9-11. You and your cohorts subscribing to this view are, at the hazard of repeating myself, a grave danger to the free world, i.e. the part of our planet where Islamic law or part of it doesn't rule non-Muslim populations.

By contrast, my impulses don't impel me to try to make futile gestures toward implacable enemies who can't be appeased and aren't seeking reconciliation and peace other than in converting you and me to Islam and forcing a very strict interpretation of Islamic law on everybody. Islamists are like a tiger and a tiger can't be placated through negotiations. But then again, I'm being realistic whereas you prefer to delude yourself. The only problem being, you're endangering the rest of us who prefer not to engage in your utterly foolish delusions.

Of course, you're so clairvoyant as to paint me as an anti-Arab bigot. This behavior on your part must be kneejerk, not something you can help. It doesn't upset me considering your political identity, your knowledge of the Palestinian-Israeli dispute, your command of the other Arab-Israeli disputes and Israeli life, and why you're even "debating" me -- just because you don't want me to day the last word. That's why you'd rant baseless crap like "bigots like yourself [i.e. Israel], eager to kill them wholesale given any excuse." and "Motivated by hatred, of course, along with a virulent nationalism that is absolutely immune to honest analysis. Cuz you're just not honest."

If you're so adamant that Israel shoulders some of the blame for the emergence of global Islamism, I'm humoring you and awaiting real proof. Or is this too great a challenge for you to handle, lamer?

When you proceed to discuss your blaming the victims, you ignore what I said and take my words out of context, grafting them into another context of a different topic. How typical of a lamer that is trying to score a point through any means possible. Just like the Arab propagandists, you're going back to the Holocaust. But wait, I'm now stumbling on the biggie: you're juxtaposing the Zionist against the goyim. This shows, as much I hate to say it, that your anti-Zionism is partially driven by antisemitism and you're partially anti-Semitic. Deny it all you want or try damage control; won't work. I've debated and read material penned by some staunch anti-Zionist critics of Israel who aren't antisemitic and have learned to tell the antisemites apart from those who aren't. You're an antisemite (probably "lite") masquerading as a bona fide anti-Zionist. Well fuck you, it ain't working. You're full of shit and your head is way up your ass, and you're probably unable to pull it out anymore. At best, you're a brainwashed fool in the simplistic black-an-white way you see Israel as the transgressor.

I have noticed that ever increasing numbers of fair minded people are learning the truth about the Palestinian side, no thanks to the mainstream US media which you so laughingly portray as pro-Israel biased. When they get to read website like Palestinian Media Watch or MEMRI or CAMERA or Honest Reporting, they realize just how misleading the mainstream media's coverage is. Israel has made mistakes, but the Palestinian side, the Syrians and Hizballah are the aggressors. Just today more evidence, very recent evidence, of that was posting as an article to this site. I know the evidence drives you mad, 'cause you can't handle the truth when it looks favorably on Israel.

One of the most impartant differences setting us apart is I do my darndest to stick to the truth whereas you employ lies whenever you feel its necessary, which happens quite often judging by your posts here. A liar like you charging others with lying is always an amusing spectacle to behold.

You forgot the support Israel receives from those Australian "jackboots", didn't you? I've noticed another thing whose importance is lost on you: Canada, breaking an apparently old pattern, recently voted against a Palestinian UN resolution draft.

How lucky you must be not to need to post to out-and-out racist rightwing fora, you antisemitic sleazeball.
 

9-11?

How the fuck do I know YOU ASSHOLES weren't behind 9-11?

You pass the 'cui bono' test way better than some rabble of fanatics stuck in the mountains of the most backward country on earth.

ww1.sundayherald.com/37707

THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.

Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.

Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli cause.

After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: “It’s very good.? Then he corrected himself, adding: “Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel from Americans].?

If Israel’s closest ally felt the collective pain of mass civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists, then Israel would have an unbreakable bond with the world’s only hyperpower and an effective free hand in dealing with the Palestinian terrorists who had been murdering its innocent civilians as the second intifada dragged on throughout 2001.

[Yup. Until 9-11 went down, criticism of Israel was mounting in this country as never before. Israel was facing a real crisis of popular support here, where they need it most. Then, boom! No more crisis. It was like a huge paradigm shift, with everyone forgetting they'd ever looked at Israel critically for one moment]

It’s not surprising that the New Jersey housewife who first spotted the five Israelis and their white van wants to preserve her anonymity. She’s insisted that she only be identified as Maria. A neighbour in her apartment building had called her just after the first strike on the Twin Towers. Maria grabbed a pair of binoculars and, like millions across the world, she watched the horror of the day unfold.

As she gazed at the burning towers, she noticed a group of men kneeling on the roof of a white van in her parking lot. Here’s her recollection: “They seemed to be taking a movie. They were like happy, you know ... they didn’t look shocked to me. I thought it was strange.?

Maria jotted down the van’s registration and called the police. The FBI was alerted and soon there was a statewide all points bulletin put out for the apprehension of the van and its occupants. The cops traced the number, establishing that it belonged to a company called Urban Moving.

Police Chief John Schmidig said: “We got an alert to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down.?

By 4pm on the afternoon of September 11, the van was spotted near New Jersey’s Giants stadium. A squad car pulled it over and inside were five men in their 20s. They were hustled out of the car with guns levelled at their heads and handcuffed.

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters – the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who’d flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.?



His name was Sivan Kurzberg. The other four passengers were Kurzberg’s brother Paul, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. The men were dragged off to prison and transferred out of the custody of the FBI’s Criminal Division and into the hands of their Foreign Counterintelligence Section – the bureau’s anti-espionage squad.

A warrant was issued for a search of the Urban Moving premises in Weehawken in New Jersey. Boxes of papers and computers were removed. The FBI questioned the firm’s Israeli owner, Dominik Otto Suter, but when agents returned to re-interview him a few days later, he was gone. An employee of Urban Moving said his co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. “I was in tears,? the man said. “These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, ‘Now America knows what we go through.’?

Vince Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the CIA, says the red flag went up among investigators when it was discovered that some of the Israelis’ names were found in a search of the national intelligence database. Cannistraro says many in the US intelligence community believed that some of the Israelis were working for Mossad and there was speculation over whether Urban Moving had been “set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists?.

This makes it clear that there was no suggestion whatsoever from within American intelligence that the Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers – simply that the possibility remains that they knew the attacks were going to happen, but effectively did nothing to help stop them.

After the owner vanished, the offices of Urban Moving looked as if they’d been closed down in a big hurry. Mobile phones were littered about, the office phones were still connected and the property of at least a dozen clients were stacked up in the warehouse. The owner had cleared out his family home in New Jersey and returned to Israel.

Two weeks after their arrest, the Israelis were still in detention, held on immigration charges. Then a judge ruled that they should be deported. But the CIA scuppered the deal and the five remained in custody for another two months. Some went into solitary confinement, all underwent two polygraph tests and at least one underwent up to seven lie detector sessions before they were eventually deported at the end of November 2001. Paul Kurzberg refused to take a lie detector test for 10 weeks, but then failed it. His lawyer said he was reluctant to take the test as he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.

Nevertheless, their lawyer, Ram Horvitz, dismissed the allegations as “stupid and ridiculous?. Yet US government sources still maintained that the Israelis were collecting information on the fundraising activities of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Mark Regev, of the Israeli embassy in Washington, would have none of that and he said the allegations were “simply false?. The men themselves claimed they’d read about the World Trade Centre attacks on the internet, couldn’t see it from their office and went to the parking lot for a better view. Their lawyers and the embassy say their ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands died were due to youthful foolishness.

The respected New York Jewish newspaper, The Forward, reported in March 2002, however, that it had received a briefing on the case of the five Israelis from a US official who was regularly updated by law enforcement agencies. This is what he told The Forward: “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it.? He added that “the conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs?, but the men were released because they “did not know anything about 9/11?.



Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.? But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?

We are now deep in conspiracy theory territory. But there is more than a little circumstantial evidence to show that Mossad – whose motto is “By way of deception, thou shalt do war? – was spying on Arab extremists in the USA and may have known that September 11 was in the offing, yet decided to withhold vital information from their American counterparts which could have prevented the terror attacks.

Following September 11, 2001, more than 60 Israelis were taken into custody under the Patriot Act and immigration laws. One highly placed investigator told Carl Cameron of Fox News that there were “tie-ins? between the Israelis and September 11; the hint was clearly that they’d gathered intelligence on the planned attacks but kept it to themselves.

The Fox News source refused to give details, saying: “Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.? Fox News is not noted for its condemnation of Israel; it’s a ruggedly patriotic news channel owned by Rupert Murdoch and was President Bush’s main cheerleader in the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq.

Another group of around 140 Israelis were detained prior to September 11, 2001, in the USA as part of a widespread investigation into a suspected espionage ring run by Israel inside the USA. Government documents refer to the spy ring as an “organised intelligence-gathering operation? designed to “penetrate government facilities?. Most of those arrested had served in the Israeli armed forces – but military service is compulsory in Israel. Nevertheless, a number had an intelligence background.

The first glimmerings of an Israeli spying exercise in the USA came to light in spring 2001, when the FBI sent a warning to other federal agencies alerting them to be wary of visitors calling themselves “Israeli art students? and attempting to bypass security at federal buildings in order to sell paintings. A Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) report suggested the Israeli calls “may well be an organised intelligence-gathering activity?. Law enforcement documents say that the Israelis “targeted and penetrated military bases? as well as the DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, including secret offices and the unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel.



A number of Israelis questioned by the authorities said they were students from Bezalel Academy of Art and Design, but Pnina Calpen, a spokeswoman for the Israeli school, did not recognise the names of any Israelis mentioned as studying there in the past 10 years. A federal report into the so-called art students said many had served in intelligence and electronic signal intercept units during their military service.

According to a 61-page report, drafted after an investigation by the DEA and the US immigration service, the Israelis were organised into cells of four to six people. The significance of what the Israelis were doing didn’t emerge until after September 11, 2001, when a report by a French intelligence agency noted “according to the FBI, Arab terrorists and suspected terror cells lived in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as in Miami and Hollywood, Florida, from December 2000 to April 2001 in direct proximity to the Israeli spy cells?.

The report contended that Mossad agents were spying on Mohammed Atta and Marwan al-Shehi, two of leaders of the 9/11 hijack teams. The pair had settled in Hollywood, Florida, along with three other hijackers, after leaving Hamburg – where another Mossad team was operating close by.

Hollywood in Florida is a town of just 25,000 souls. The French intelligence report says the leader of the Mossad cell in Florida rented apartments “right near the apartment of Atta and al-Shehi?. More than a third of the Israeli “art students? claimed residence in Florida. Two other Israelis connected to the art ring showed up in Fort Lauderdale. At one time, eight of the hijackers lived just north of the town.

Put together, the facts do appear to indicate that Israel knew that 9/11, or at least a large-scale terror attack, was about to take place on American soil, but did nothing to warn the USA. But that’s not quite true. In August 2001, the Israelis handed over a list of terrorist suspects – on it were the names of four of the September 11 hijackers. Significantly, however, the warning said the terrorists were planning an attack “outside the United States?.

The Israeli embassy in Washington has dismissed claims about the spying ring as “simply untrue?. The same denials have been issued repeatedly by the five Israelis seen high-fiving each other as the World Trade Centre burned in front of them.

Their lawyer, Ram Horwitz, insisted his clients were not intelligence officers. Irit Stoffer, the Israeli foreign minister, said the allegations were “completely untrue?. She said the men were arrested because of “visa violations?, adding: “The FBI investigated those cases because of 9/11.?

Jim Margolin, an FBI spokesman in New York, implied that the public would never know the truth, saying: “If we found evidence of unauthorised intelligence operations that would be classified material.? Yet, Israel has long been known, according to US administration sources, for “conducting the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any US ally?. Seventeen years ago, Jonathan Pollard, a civilian working for the American Navy, was jailed for life for passing secrets to Israel. At first, Israel claimed Pollard was part of a rogue operation, but the government later took responsibility for his work.

It has always been a long-accepted agreement among allies – such as Britain and America or America and Israel – that neither country will jail a “friendly spy? nor shame the allied country for espionage. Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at Boston’s Political Research Associates and an expert in intelligence, says: “It’s a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn’t do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always visa violation.?

What we are left with, then, is fact sullied by innuendo. Certainly, it seems, Israel was spying within the borders of the United States and it is equally certain that the targets were Islamic extremists probably linked to September 11. But did Israel know in advance that the Twin Towers would be hit and the world plunged into a war without end; a war which would give Israel the power to strike its enemies almost without limit? That’s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps. But the unpleasant feeling that, in this age of spin and secrets, we do not know the full and unadulterated truth won’t go away. Maybe we can guess, but it’s for the history books to discover and decide.
 

How ironic that you bring up Chamberlain...

...when it's the goosestepping fascists of Israel marching arm in arm with the goosestepping fascists of America who are most equivalent to the Nazis in today's world. We're the ones with the most formidable military in the world; the Islamists are WAAAAAAAAAY down that list. Likewise with the whole 'global domination' thing. The Islamists can pipe-dream about that prize all they want to, but another party has already claimed this after spending six decades pursuing it monomaniacally. I'm talking about the U.S. Empire. That's the U.S.E., not the U.S.A. That's almost certainly how historians of 2100+ will refer to it.

Also, Chamberlain's miscalculation was tragic, yes, but his motive was unassailable: avoiding a repetition of the inconcievable horror of WWI. Whipping out this venomous effigy of Chamberlain the Pussy, Chamberlain the Appeaser, is so diagnostic of a twisted militaristic mind like yours. Your incurable mental disease blinds you to the full context of that episode...
 

You're a wannabe psychologist with a shrunk & racist mind

If your posts in this thread are anything to judge by, you're the mentally crippled racist person sympathizing with the Islamic Jihad and Hamas Islamo-facists goosesteppers who has the gall to lie so brazenly accusing all Israeli rightwingers of being the "goosestepping fascists of Israel" when you know very little about most of these people apart from the wealth of misinformation and disinformation you read about them in your radical leftist sources. You (and your cohorts) are the one who needs professional help pronto.

Chamberlain was a naive fool, but it can be argued that he at least meant well and didn't have the benefit of hindsight. The thing is, the second excuse for his behavior can't justify the misguided pacifist appeasement-at-any-cost mentality employed by antisemites like you now that we all have the benefit of hindsight. You and your sorry ilk should have learned from Chamberlain's mistake and drawn the proper conclusions, but instead we're witnessing you not only making excuses for him but even refusing to admit his approach isn't adequate to apply to the present Nazis, the Islamists.

I believe in reasonable Israeli self-defense, If that makes me a militarist in the minds of radical leftist terror apologizing antisemitic scumbags like you, so be it. Out there in the real world my belief represents a healthy instinct you'll apparently never comprehend.

What a sorry company of antisemites, apologists for terror, and Islamist appeasers you belong to, sleazeball.
 

Oh, I somehow forgot one really important detail...

You also have the audacity to spout the nauseating lie that the neocons are "most equivalent to the Nazis in today's world". Immensely indicative of just how utterly divorced from reality you and your looned cohorts are.
 

Re: Israeli Refuseniks Speak Out

This makes the second time I've brought up 9-11 in this way and you've responded unusually by declining to puke forth your obligatory hysterical dismissals. What's wrong, shit-brain, are you afraid of this subject? Is it too close to the truth or something? Wow, this is MOST interesting! It's always good to find one of your weak spots
 

Another thing:

"Out there in the real world my belief represents a healthy instinct you'll apparently never comprehend."

It's called C-O-W-A-R-D-I-C-E. And no, it's not healthy, it's a disease of childish neurotic minds, and it's bigotry's corrupt mediocre heart.
 

"reasonable Israeli self-defense" ???

What do 400 nukes have to do with "reasonable" when your opponents don't have any? Huh, lying fuck? You don't believe in "reasonable," you believe in massive overkill and the kind of imperial intimidation it makes possible, just like your fascist heroes of the U.S. Empire.
 

Oh, also

"mentally crippled racist persons" don't identify and sympathize with people well outside their own identity group, as I do. Instead, they do what you do: identify ONLY with their own group, and respond to any tension with another group with the exact type of rabid demonic kill 'em all characterizations you employ. Do you get it now, Nazi boy?
 

You never responded to my challenge from above

I challenged you to produce proof that Israel shoulders some of the blame for the emergence of global Islamism and told you I was awaiting it. All that I've seen is racist ravings from a fucktard who can't deal with his own antisemitism.

You're infatuated with radical Palestinians at least as much as you're racist toward Jews. I'm done with this thread, at least until I see something posted herein civilly written and worth replying to.
 

Zionist Johnson Says Killing Little Girls Is Good

Amnesty International has frequently condemned violence against Palestinian and Israeli children. In a 20 November 2004 statement, the organization said:

"Many killings of Palestinian children by Israeli armed forces have been unlawful, as wilful, killings resulting from acts including reckless shooting, tank and aircraft shelling and bombardments and house destruction. As such these killings are grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention and therefore war crimes. Such killings have been part of widespread, as well as systematic, acts against Palestinian civilians. They have been carried out by Israeli armed forces pursuant to government policy, evidenced by the knowledge and approval of government authorities who are fully aware that for over four years such practices have consistently resulted in the killing or injury of civilians and who have declined to take effective steps to prevent such killings of civilians. They, therefore, meet the definition of crimes against humanity under international law."

Amnesty also highlighted that:

"In their daily lives, Palestinian children throughout the Occupied Territories have also been exposed to an increasingly high level of violence and violations of many of their rights including the right to education, to an adequate standard of living, to the highest attainable standard of health, to safe and secure housing, and to freedom of movement. For four years many have been confronted with Israeli army aircraft circling the sky or launching missiles, and with Israeli army tanks outside their homes and schools. Their villages and neighbourhoods have been kept under siege and they have often been confined to their homes for days and weeks at a time by curfews and closures. They have been forced to go through military checkpoints to get to school or to take long detours and to climb over blockades or in and out of ditches in order to visit relatives or to go to the doctor."

Source: web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE020022004


The vast majority of killings are never investigated and rarely are the killers punished by Israeli authorities.
 

Is John Dine Steven Argue or vice versa?

An post almost identical to the one right above is found on santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/14711/index.php, only under the name John Dine.

Obviously one of them is forging the other. If Steven Argue is the forger, he's one hell of a psychopathic puppy.
 

Fucktard?

I haven't seen you use that one in many months. I must really have you at the end of your rope.

You never challenged me in any such way, you lying pussy piece of shit, because if you had I would have sent your stupid ass flying into space on the first lunar mission in 33 years, and you know it.

"Our work targets world infidels. Our enemy is the crusader alliance led by America, Britain and Israel. It is a crusader-Jewish alliance."

— Osama bin Laden, from a TIME interview, 1998

original article here:
www.time.com/time/covers/1101010924/wosama.html

The article goes on to state: "Bin Laden has spoken out against Israel, which he, like many Muslims, regards as an alien and aggressive presence on land belonging to Islam. Lately, he has lauded the current Palestinian uprising against Israel's continued occupation of Palestinian territories."

Also Rachid al-Ghannouchi, a Tunisian Islamist leader:

Zionism, then, nurtured by and in turn nurturing this global pseudo-civilization, represents a secular onslaught on the heart of our Islamic nation. The Islamic project, by contrast, is its polar opposite, representing the hope that human civilization can be rescued from this new worship of the golden calf To speak of saving Palestine from the Zionists is to speak simultaneously of one's hope for a global liberation. The 'Palestinian cause' does not signify the simple reconquest of a patch of territory occupied by aggressors. It is not even about peace and war; Its implications go much further. For to strike at Zionism in Palestine is to strike at the enemy in its new citadel, which it has constructed at the center of the world, in the very heart of our Muslim nation, in a land which has always been of unlimited strategic and spiritual fecundity. The West, as a civilization, seems set to extend its influence to the heartland of the Old World, the better to destroy the surviving traces of spiritual resistance which have remained intact there, and finally to obliterate mans remaining hopes for the rebirth of a civilization which is qualitative and humane, rather than quantitative and secular."

Full article here: www.iap.org/globalagenda.htm

And I found both of these within two minutes. There's way more out there. You want to keep playing, or does your ass hurt enough already? C'mon, punk, make my day.

Hey, everybody, the zios pulled 9-11. CT doesn't want you to think about this, which only lends more weight to it. Good job, schmuck, you're a real hero.
 

Oh yah, good point about John Dine / Steven Argue

Yeah it takes a real "psychopathic puppy" to not put their REAL NAME on an internet post. Good point, Becky.
 

Here's another one

This one's about the Islamic Brotherhood, one of the leading Islamist organizations in the world, which gave us Ayman Zawahiri (Osama bin Laden's deputy) and sheik Omar Abdel Rahman (the WTC bomber of 1993):

"Muslim activists who know current and former Brotherhood sympathizers in this country say bitter opposition to Israel is a key part of Brotherhood beliefs. Law enforcement sources say hundreds of current and former Ikhwan supporters nationwide are under federal investigation for alleged financial support of Hamas and other Palestinian groups deemed terrorists by the U.S. government."

from middleeastinfo.org/article4735.html
 

More quotes from above article

"For years federal agents paid little heed to the Brotherhood, but after Sept. 11 they noticed that many leads went back to the Brotherhood. "We see some sort of nexus, direct or indirect, to the Brotherhood, in ongoing cases," said Dennis Lormel, until recently a top FBI counterterrorism official."

"The architect of the Sept. 11 strikes, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, told U.S. interrogators that he was drawn to violent jihad after joining the Brotherhood in Kuwait at age 16 and attending its desert youth camps, according to the report released in July by the national commission that investigated the attacks."

"Brotherhood radicals in Germany and Spain are suspected of organizing logistical support for the al Qaeda cell that carried out the attacks. Western governments subsequently shut down a huge banking network in Switzerland, Liechtenstein and the Bahamas that was set up by a leading Brotherhood figure, citing its numerous financial ties to al Qaeda and other terrorists. The founder, Youssef Nada, denies wrongdoing."
 

Ya know, you gotta be pretty far gone to believe....

When 19 Saudi Arabians, all Arab, all Muslim, hijack planes and crash them into office buildings killing 3000 Americans, ya instantly think "Gee, I think Israel is behind this somehow."

Israel got 19 Arab/Muslims to commit suicide just to make Arabs look bad?

How did Israel convince them to do this?

The next charge is that Israel knew 9/11 was about to happen and failed to warn the USA.

Its possible Israel did have intelligence on Al Qada and the Bin Laden network, but remember, the FBI and the CIA weren't even sharing intelligence. It would be hard to get that information to the right person at the right time. I think its highly probable that Israel had more intelligence than the USA. However, it seems more key that the Bush administration had told govt. authorities to lay off of our "allies" the Saudis, hence the absolute pants down effect of all US govt. agencies to the 9/11 attack.

Heck, the two places on earth where there was dancing in the streets on the news of our huge civilian death loss on Sept. 11th were in Baghdad and Palestinian cities. Maybe the Palestinians were behind the 9/11 attacks?

Did some Israelis witness the attack and make videotapes of it? Yes. Lots of people witnessed the attacks and took videotapes of the attack. It happened in the city in the United states with the largest Jewish population in the country. The fact that some Israelis, seeing the historical nature of the attack, acted to record the events, hardly proves they were behind the attacks.

The last point, that it was our support of Israel that triggered the Bin Laden network to attack the USA. While gripes about Israel were on Bin Laden's list, they were no where near the top of the list. US troops on Saudi soil was Bin Laden's #1 complaint. But even if it were Bin Laden's #1 reason for attacking America --and we determined that he is a megalomanical demented enemy who doesn't function in the rational sphere-- that should not shake us in our support for Israel. We should be against unlawful gangters whereever they are.
 

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