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London Mayor Calls Sharon "War Criminal"

The mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, called Israeli Prime Minister General Ariel Sharon a "war criminal" and accused Israel of "ethnic cleansing,"
London Mayor Calls Sharon "War Criminal"

In an op-Ed published in The British Guardian newspaper, the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, called Israeli Prime Minister General Ariel Sharon a "war criminal" and accused Israel of "ethnic cleansing," saying Sharon should be imprisoned for the Sabra and Shatila massacres in Beirut. He also accused Israel of demonizing Muslims. In the Guardian piece, Livingstone rejected accusations of anti-Semitism arising from his confrontation two weeks ago with a Jewish newspaper reporter he likened to a German concentration camp guard. He accused Israel of spreading misinformation about the scale of anti-Semitism in Europe, and seeking to silence critics by calling them anti-Semitic. Livingstone wrote, "The reality is that the great bulk of racist attacks in Europe today are on black people, Asians and Muslims. They are the primary targets of the extreme right."

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London Mayor's attack is about nothing new

Sabra and Shatila again? That was 1982! AND the Israeli govt. ALREADY did a complete investigation and disciplined Sharon for his part.

Let me remind readers, that (despite malicious and false claims made to the contrary by Steve Argue) NO ISRAELI SOLDIER killed anyone at Sabra and Shatila. All the killing was done by the a Lebanese Christian phalanx.

And the people killed included vicious bloody killers as well as innocent civilians.

The Palestinian record in Lebanon is one of bloody murders, mass murder, ethnic cleansing, political assassination and terror.

Livingston accuses Israel of demonizing Muslims. But 20% of Israel are Muslim and have full citizenship rights and freedom of religion.

Areas under Palestinian control are 10% Jewish, but the effort to "remove the settlements" goes on constantly, which is an effort to ethnically cleanse Jews from the West Bank and Gaza.

As for anti-semiticism in Europe, it seems to have been increasing directly proportional to the number of Arabs who have migrated there.

For instance, in France, which has the highest percentage of Arab residents, anti-semitic attacks have increased the most.

Synagogues have been fire-bombed and Jewish cemetaries desecrated.

It is true that blacks, Asians, and Muslims have also been victims of hate crimes.

Where is the balance in Mayor Livingston's attack against Israel?

I'm cross-posting this comment posted at yesterday. --- Becky

The mayor of London is anti-Semite
by Sefarad Saturday, Mar. 05, 2005 at 1:38 AM

It was demonstrated long ago that Israel didn't commit the killings of Sabra and Shatila. The authors of those killings were the Christian Lebanese Phalanges.

Why was the invasion of Lebanon illegal? Israel and the legitimate government of Lebanon were allies. The Palestinians were massacring Christian Lebanese and launching terrorists attacks against Israel from Lebanon. That was the reason why Israel invaded that country. Once the terror problem solved, they withdrew.

At that time, Syria also invaded Lebanon. Its aim was to help the Palestinians with the massacres they were carrying out and with stablishing an Islamic regime. Syria is still there. What does that mayor think about it?

He says he had an important part in the recognision of the PLO as the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people. What a deed: the PLO was a terrorist organization.

And the Israeli government is right when it says that there is anti-Semitism in Europe, which is stated not only by Israel but also by some European intelectuals, mainly French, perhaps because in France the problem is more serious than in any other European country.

First he says what Israel is doing has nothing to do with Holocaust because Israel's aim is not to systematically kill Palestinians. However, his conclusion is that it is a Holocaust.

And why does he say that Sharon commits acts of terror against the Palestinians? If that was so, not one Palestinian would have been left by now.

Re: London Mayor Calls Sharon "War Criminal"

Becky, why do you care so much about Israel and how come anyone who posts opinions that Israel is not perfect press your buttons?

What would you do if you knew the Jewish holocaust was coming?

Imagine you were alive and paying attention to the events in Nazi Germany in the early 1930's.

Suppose you were smart enough, or savvy enough to figure out that if things continued the way they were going, millions and millions of people would be murdered.

Wouldn't you be moved to spend as much time and energy as you could to prevent such a tragedy from occurring?

What if you suddenly realized, that all your friends, allies, and people you admired were all working in a wrong-headed way?

What if your love for them, and your sincere desire to teach them the error of their ways welled up inside you and became, for the time being, the very path you know you must be on?

What would you do?

Johnson, Supporter Of Crimes Against Humanity

Radical Zionist and Dafka (Hebrew for “in your face?) member Becky Johnson wrote:

"Steve, so you have to go all the way back to 1982 to find a massacre to pin on the Israelis. And you have to fudge the facts to make even THAT work. They were not "innocent Palestinians" since a day or two before a group of them went into a Lebanese camp and murdered 65 men, women, and children. When the Lebanese Phalanx came up the road to the camp where the murderers were hiding, Ariel Sharon let them through. It was the Lebanese army that killed the Palestinians. Not a single IDF soldier killed anyone. Sharon was later disciplined by his own govt. who ruled that he should have known what the Lebanese were about to do and he should have tried to stop them."

Steven Argue responds on responds On Sabra and Shatila

Becky Johnson seems to think that the Sabra and Shatila massacre is not worth discussing because 1982 is supposedly ancient history. 1982 is hardly beyond the statute of limitations for crimes against humanity. I’m sure you don’t have the same attitude towards Nazi butchers of the Third Reich. While I could, and have, written about the most recent crimes of the Israeli government in Jenin and elsewhere, the Sabra and Shatila massacre is still worth talking about since the current crimes are only a continuation of the past. Likewise, Sharon’s guilt in the Sabra Shatila massacre is worth mentioning.

Becky Johnson shows here extreme ignorance by claiming that this massacre was carried out by the Lebanese government. The Lebanese government had nothing to do with it. The massacre was carried out both by the Israeli military under the command of Sharon and by Israel's allies in Lebanon, the Christian Phalangists.

With the testimony Mrs. Sersawi in the Belgium appeals court on the Israeli government’s war crimes, which I’ve posted twice, I've provided Becky Johnson with clear evidence of the involvement of both the Israeli government and Lebanese Christian Phalangists in this mass murder of unarmed civilians, many that had been slaughtered after being taken prisoner by Israel. Among the dead was Mrs. Sersawi’s husband. Yet you Becky have chosen to ignore this evidence I have provided you to absurdly claim that this mass murder was only the killing of combatants and that it was the work of the Lebanese government.

I will post Mrs. Sersawi’s testimony here once again at the end of this writing.

Prior to the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon both Ariel Sharon and Bashir Gemayel had declared that they would create a panic amongst Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon that would reduce the numbers living there from 500,000 to 50,000. The Sabra and Shatila massacre was part of this stated goal of ethnic cleansing.

Ha’aretz reported on September 26, 1982: “A long-term objective aimed at the expulsion of the whole Palestinian population of Lebanon beginning with Beirut. The purpose was to create a panic to convince [sic] all the Palestinians of Lebanon that they were no longer safe in that country.?

As such the people of Sabra and Shatila facing the Zionist slaughter of innocents, were to meet the same fate as the Palestinian towns of Dueima, Kibya, Kfar Qasim, and Deir Yassin from 1947 to 1950.

As Time Magazine admitted on October 4th, 1982, “On several occasions Gemayel told Israeli officials he would raze the camps and flatten them into tennis courts. This fits in with Israeli thinking. The Christian militia forces that were known to have gone into the camps were trained by the Israelis.?

Major Saqr of the Phalangist Militia bragged after the massacre, “The only way you will find out how many Palestinians we killed is if they ever build a subway under Beirut ... A good massacre or two will drive the Palestinians out of Beirut and Lebanon once and for all.? (Jonathan Randal of the Washington Post).

Yet the massacre was not just carried out by these murderous Phalangist militia trained and allied with Israel, Israeli forces were also directly involved.

On February 14, 1983 Der Spiegel carried an interview with one of the killers at Sabra and Shatila, who described direct Israeli participation along side his own. The article, entitled “Each of You Is An Avenger?, is a first person account of crimes against humanity:

“We met in the Schahrur wadi, in the valley of the nightingales Southeast of Beirut. It was Wednesday, the fifteenth of September ... We were approximately three hundred men from East Beirut, South Lebanon and the Akkar Mountains in the north ... I belonged to the Tiger Militia of ex-President Camile Chamoun.

“Phalange officers summoned us and brought us to the meeting place. They told us that they needed us for a “special action? ... “You are the agents of good,? the officers told us repeatedly. “Each of you is an avenger.? ...

“Then a good dozen Israelis in green uniforms without indication of rank came along. They had playing cards with them and spoke Arabic well, except that like all Jews they pronounced the hard “h? as “ch.? They were talking about the Palestinian camps Sabra and Shatila ... it was clear to us what we were to do, and we were looking forward to it.

“We had to swear an oath never to divulge anything about our action. At about 10 p.m. we climbed into an American army truck that the Israelis had given over to us. We parked the vehicle near the airport tower. There, immediately next to the Israeli positions, several such trucks were already parked.

“Some Israelis in Phalange uniforms were with the Party. “The Israeli friends who accompany you,? our officers told us “... will make your work easier.? They directed us not to make use of our firearms, if at all possible. “Everything must proceed noiselessly.? ... We saw other comrades. They had to do their work with bayonets and knives. Bloody corpses were lying in the alleys. The half-asleep women and children who cried out for help put our whole plan in danger, alarming the entire camp.

“Now I saw once again the Israelis who had been at our secret meeting. One signaled us to move back to areas of the camp entrance. The Israelis opened up with all their guns. The Israelis helped us with floodlights.

“There were shocking scenes that showed what the Palestinians were good for. A few, including women, had taken shelter in a small alley, behind some donkeys. Unfortunately we had to shoot down these poor animals to finish off the Palestinians behind them. It got to me when the animals cried out in pain. It was gruesome.

“A comrade entered a house full of women and children. The Palestinians screamed and threw their gas stoves on the ground. We sent the hard-hearted rabble to hell.

“At about four in the morning my squad went back to the truck. When there was morning light we went back into the camp. We went past bodies, stumbled over bodies, shot and stabbed all eyewitnesses. Killing others was easy once you have done it a few times.

“Now came the Israeli Army bulldozers. “Plow everything under the ground. Don’t let any witnesses stay alive.? But despite our efforts, the area was still teeming with people. They ran about and caused awful confusion. The order to “plow them under? demanded too much.

“It became clear that the pretty plan had failed. Thousands had escaped us. Far too many Palestinians are still alive. Everywhere now people are talking about a massacre and feeling sorry for the Palestinians. Who appreciates the hardships that we took upon ourselves ... Just think. I fought for twenty-four hours in Shatila without food or drink.?

Many of the mass graves were never opened, but over 3,000 people were murdered at Sabra and Shatila.

In addition to the scenes described above, Palestinians were also rounded up and systematically slaughtered in the thousands by Israeli troops in a Lebanese stadium.

As survivor Mrs. Sersawi testified in a Belgium appeals court on the Israeli governments war crimes, "The Lebanese forces militia [Phalangists] had taken us from our homes and marched us up to the entrance of the camp where a large hole had been dug in the earth. The men were told to get into it. Then the militiamen shot a Palestinian. The women and children climbed over bodies to get to this spot, but we were truly shocked by seeing this man killed in front of us and there was a roar of shouting and screams from the women. That's when we heard the Israelis on a loudspeaker shouting, 'give us your men.' We thought, 'thank God, they will save us.'

"We were told to walk up the road to the Kuwaiti Embassy, the women and children in front, the men behind. We had been separated. There were Phalangist Militiamen and Israeli soldiers walking alongside us. I could still see Hassan (her husband with whom she was 3 months pregnant) and Faraj (her brother-in-law). It was like a parade. There were several hundred of us. When we got to Cite Sportif, the Israelis put us women in a big concrete room and the men were taken to another side of the stadium. There were a lot of men from the camp and I could no longer see my husband. The Israelis went around saying 'Sit, sit.' It was 11 AM. An hour later we were told to leave. But we stood outside amid the Israeli soldiers, waiting for our men.

"Some men came out, none of them younger than 40, and they told us to be patient, that hundreds of men were still inside. Then about 4 PM an Israeli officer came out. He was wearing dark glasses and said in Arabic: 'What are you waiting for?' He said there was nobody left, that everyone had gone. There were Israeli trucks moving out with tarpaulin over them. We couldn't see inside. And there were jeeps and tanks and a bulldozer making a lot of noise. We stayed there as it got dark and the Israelis appeared to be leaving and we were very nervous. But when the Israelis had moved away, we went inside. And there was no one there. Nobody. I had been only three years married. I never saw my husband again."

Dafka Member Lee Kaplan, Zionist Stooge For War

By Steven Argue
In his pro-war and anti-Arab diatribes Dafka leader Lee Kaplan claims, “And as for the guy [Steven Argue] suggesting America is just in Iraq for profit, get a life. We can buy the oil cheaper than the cost of waging war.?

The obvious point that Kaplan doesn’t want us to see here is that the billions spent on war and occupation do not come out of the pockets of those that profit off of it. The war is being paid for by us taxpayers, not Halliburton and the others. As such it is not just those American capitalists that are looting and privatizing the Iraqi economy that are gaining big profits, but also those who sell the hardware to the U.S. military.

Agent Kaplan claims, “Israel is a Jewish state, yes, but also a secular democracy ranked as democratic as the US and the UK.?

Who gives such rankings? The United States with its violations of the 1965 voting rights act, rigged elections, and political prisoners is far from democratic. Israel is much worse.

Palestinians do not have the right to freely travel. Reminiscent of chattel slavery, Palestinian families are often separated by Israeli officials who commonly do not grant necessary permits for
Palestinians to enter neighborhoods or towns where wives, husbands, or children live. In contrast the Hebrew population has full rights to travel.

Palestinians often do not have the right to keep their own homes, which are often confiscated or bulldozed. The bulldozing of houses is a common punishment of families whose children are accused of throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. Recently in Jenin houses were bulldozed
with people inside, an act that besides killing people also made an estimated 4,000 people homeless.

Palestinians do not have the right to freedom of speech and regularly face arrest, torture, and execution for their political views. Even Hebrew speakers who support rights for Palestinians or an end to Israeli wars have, at times, had their press shut down by the Israeli government or had their demonstrations attacked and beaten by Israeli soldiers.

Although the Israeli government claims that Palestinians have the right to own property, this is a lie. Ever since 1948 Palestinians in Israel do not have the right to own land, because their land is often confiscated by force for Hebrew settlement and agriculture. Water rights have been systematically cut off and diverted away from Palestinian lands and given to stolen Hebrew owned lands. Palestinian laborers are then denied by law the right to work the Hebrew owned
agricultural lands, although they are sometimes illegally employed as cheap labor with no labor rights.

The humiliating conditions of the Palestinian people were recently observed by former anti-Apartheid fighter Archbishop Desmond Tutu who wrote: "I have been very deeply distressed by my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in
South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young police officers prevented us from moving about.

"On my visit to the Holy Land I drove to a church with the Anglican bishop in Jerusalem. I could hear tears in his voice as he pointed to Jewish settlements. I thought of the desire of Israelis for security. But what of the Palestinians who have lost their land and homes?

"I have experienced Palestinians pointing to what were their homes, now occupied by Jewish Israelis. I was walking with Canon Naim Ateek (the head of the Sabeel Ecumenical Centre) in Jerusalem. He pointed and said: 'Our home was over there. We were driven out of our home;
it is now occupied by Israeli Jews.'

"My heart aches. I say why are our memories so short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment

In the 1940s Jews were only one third of the population of Palestine. The Arab majority had not yet been driven from their land. After independence from the Britain in 1948 the Zionist state began a massive expropriation of Palestinian land that has not ended. Becky Johnson's claim that, "the Arabs and Muslims who did not flee in 1948, but stayed in Israel have full citizenship, have freedom to practice their religion, own property, vote, have representation in the Knesset, and compose 18% of the population" is so utterly untrue as to defy common sense. Besides defying all facts, I ask why most of an entire people would voluntarily flee the land in which they had built flourishing towns, a rich agriculture, and a vibrant cultural life with nowhere else to go? The short answer is that they did not flee voluntarily. They had met the "Jewish bayonets" of Zionist Jabotinsky's "Iron Wall". To deny this fact comes in on the same level as those who deny the Holocaust of Europe.

Also See:
Lee Kaplan, Dafka Exposed

Repetive postings of what wasn't compelling the first time, Steve

Steve, you accuse me of abusing this process, but then you post, and post, and post, and post the SAME crap!!

It wasn't compelling the first time. Don't you have at least ONE other eyewitness that claims any Israeli killed any Palestinian at Sabra and Shatila???

Why did Mrs. Serwawi wait 21 YEARS to tell her story???

You give percentages, such as "In the 1940s Jews were only one third of the population of Palestine" but despite my repeated requests, you won't say where the borders of "Palestine" are.

When you say Palestine, do you mean the ancient country that was formerly Israel, but re-named by the Roman Conquerors as a punishment for a failed Jewish uprising in an attempt to throw off the Roman occupiers?

When you say Palestine do you mean the entire British mandate for Palestine which included all of Joran and parts of Iraq?

When you say Palestine do you mean the land that would have become Palestine in UN resolution 181 which partitioned what was left of Palestine into two states: Israel and Palestine?

When you say Palestine, do you mean the areas that are currently under the administrative and civil control by the Palestinian Authority?

Or when you say Palestine, do you mean the current state of Israel which you refuse to recognize the right of its existance, and which you are working diligently to destroy?

Talking about percentages of "Palestine" mean nothing unless you are willing to first define the parameters of where the hell Palestine is in the first place.

this is something you have REPEATEDLY refused to answer.

And now you want to censor ME so that you wont have to face my questions????

Mrs. Sersawiâs Testimony vs. That Of Becky Johnson

Mrs. Sersawi’s Testimony vs. That Of Becky Johnson

1. Mrs. Sersawi was a witness to the Sabra and Shatila massacre.
1. Becky Johnson was not a witness.

2. Mrs. Sersawi is biased because her husband was murdered by the Israeli military. This has no bearing on her testimony, however, because this is the incident that she is testifying about.
2. Becky Johnson is biased because she was recruited to her job by a fake “homeless? “rabbi? that came through town. This has no bearing on her testimony, however, because she was not present at Sabra and Shatila.

3. Mrs. Sersawi, like the rest of the entire world besides Becky Johnson, is aware that the Lebanese Army had nothing to do with the Sabra and Shatila massacre.
3. Becky Johnson thinks that the Lebanese Army carried out the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

Becky Johnson also claims that I have not answered questions that I have repeatedly answered. She knows better, so these false questions and insinuations that I refuse to answer them is obviously for the benefit of those just now walking in to the discussion.

Re: London Mayor Calls Sharon "War Criminal"

Isnt there any other topic in the universe besides Israel????

The Lebanese Christian Phalanx killed all at Sabra and Shatila

Mrs. Sersawi SAYS she was a witness.

I have asked Steve Argue to post testimony from ONE other corroborating witness since EVERY OTHER HISTORICAL SOURCE says that it was the Lebanese Christian Phalanx that killed the Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila in 1982. And the death toll was about 800, not the 3,000 Argue claims.

EVERY OTHER HISTORICAL SOURCE says that no Israeli soldier participated in the massacre.

Before we believe the testimony of ONE WOMAN (posting it 12 times doesn't make 12 witnesses, Steve) which was made 21 YEARS AFTER the massacre, I think we should get some corroboration. Steve Argue doesn't think so.
He thinks that since we KNOW the Israelis are a bunch of murderers and child killers, why do we need more evidence??


How about posting a map of Palestine, Steve, so we can all see where the boundaries are???

Oh, and I asked you to describe for us how much freedom women have who live under Sharia or Islamic law?

Now I Can No Longer Claim That Johnson Is Incapable Of Learning

So now Johnson admits to the involvement of the Israeli armed and militarily backed Christian Phalangists in the Sabra Shatila massacre as opposed to the Lebanese Army. This is a step forward. Now you can’t say that I never taught you anything Johnson.

Yet Johnson still has troubles with the actual numbers that were murdered and the direct and indirect Israeli involvement in the massacre. I have provided several sources for Israeli involvement in what I wrote.

Likewise I have explained in the past that not all of the bodies were recovered, but based on estimates built by counting the dead and the missing, 3,000 is the best estimate of the dead. Israel’s ridiculously low estimate, and Becky Johnson’s desire to argue this fact, come as a result of both recognizing, but not admitting to Israel’s involvement.

My dearest dumb Becky, I have already answered your other questions many times. I actually do have a life, so instead of giving into your demands and wasting my time repeating myself to someone who does not have any desire to hear what I have to say I will direct you to go back through what I have written to you in the past. Then perhaps you could do me the favor of trying to discredit me by posting links to what I said as you just did in another string on this site.

Why do you hate the Jewish State of Israel so much?

Israel's involvement was extensively investigated, and by Israel!

I did, inititially, misreport that the Lebanese army did the killing in Sabra and Shatila, but I have corrected that in EVERY subsequent posting, but I guess you didn't notice until now.

My main complaint is you CONTINUE to claim that the Israelis were among those who massacred Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila. You keep posting and reposting those attempts to blame the Israelis for something that all historians and journalists at that time KNEW they did not do.

This was not an obscure event in history. There were lots of witnesses and plenty of journalists to record what actually occurred.

Your willingness to publicize and legitimize blatant attempts to propagandize and re-write history in order to defame Ariel Sharon are despicable.

Your hatred of Israel and contempt for the Jewish people's attempt to create a homeland where their ancient homeland existed is disgusting, and promotes continued violence.

Every report you make, is intended to degrade and villify the Israelis. There is absolutely NO BALANCE in your reports. You don't even address the arguments to the contrary, instead lapsing into name-calling and attempts to have your critics banned from this website.

How can a Jew living in Judeah be illegal?

How can you claim the Arabs were indigenous and the Jewish people not? I mean its the ruins of their temple at the Temple Mount.

Ariel Sharon was born in Israel. Arafat was born in Egypt. Edward Said was born in Jerusalem to an American mother and an Egyptian father, and he grew up in Egypt. Saeb Erekat was born in the USA. These are major "Palestinians" but none of them were indigenous.

Yet you claim the Arabs are indigenous and the Jewish people are not.

Israel incorporated its Arab population within its borders back in 1948. Any Arab who chose to stay, became an Israeli citizen, has full rights, and can practice his/her Islamic religion without interference.

Your repeated claims that the tiny Israeli army in 1948, initially outnumbered 10 to 1 by the invading Arab armies, drove out 650,000 Arabs at gunpoint strains credibility, did not happen, and was not the cause of the Arab exodus.

You fail to acknowledge that Israel has accepted back 170,000 of those who fled in 1947-48. So much for the "right of return".

You keep insisting Israel is "illegally occupying Palestine" but UN resolution 242 made the occupation legal. Its not really an "occupation" either, because that would mean Israel had taken over a sovereign country, which the West Bank is not, and has never been. And since 1994, and the setting up of the Palestinian Authority, Israel is no longer occupying the West Bank and Gaza, but only controlling the borders.

And as for your repeated references to "Palestine", there is currently no such country. The Arabs have rejected 13 separate attempts to set up the State of Palestine since 1937. Obviously they don't want an independent state. All they want to do is destroy Israel and turn it into one big Arab state of Palestine, eliminating the only Jewish state in the world.

And you are their big American cheerleader. You make me sick.

The murderers say they didn't do it.

Johnson says, Israel's involvement was extensively investigated by Israel! I guess that clears it up then: The murderers say they didn't do it.

Some countries don't bother with an investigation

Did Jordan investigate the Black September massacre in 1970 and find out who was responsible for killing 10,000 Palestinians in the course of three weeks?

Does that make Israel more or less conscientious than Jordan?

No, just better liars

Johnson asks, "Does that make Israel more or less conscientious than Jordan?"

Israel more conscientious? No, just better liars.

So Johnson, does your concern about Black September mean that you are going to finally join me in calling for an end to U.S. military aid to the Hashemite Kingdom? No? Then what right do you have to compare the governments of Israel and Jordan when you refuse to wash your hands clean of the blood that your nation has on its hands for giving military support to the governments both countries? NONE

Most investigations are internal

If you made a charge of police abuse in Santa Cruz, you would first hope to trigger an investigation by internal affairs.

A more distant investigation of SCPD abuse would be by the Sheriff's Dept.

Perhaps a State of California regulatory agency might take up the investigation.

A case of police abuse might go all the way to the Supreme Court.


Yet you want the readers to ASSUME that the Israeli report was biased to the point that people should disregard it without reading it because "they are just better liars."

Since no other country ever has "independent" investigations of their own internal allegations of excessive force or abuse of its codes of conduct, why do you have a special (double) standard for Israel?

Re: London Mayor Calls Sharon "War Criminal"

The internal affairs investigations by the SCPD are as useless as the the Israeli investigations into their crimes as Sabra and Shatila. These ARE good comparisons.

According to Steve it doesn't matter whether an investigation is done or not

since they are all "useless".

EXCEPT if you can blame the Israelis for NOT CONDUCTING AN INVESTIGATION as in the Brian Avery case.

NOTE TO EVERYONE BUT STEVE: The extensive Israeli investigation following Sabra and Shatila concluded that no Israeli soldier was involved in killing c. 700 - 800 Palestinians in 1982. The also concluded that the IDF military commander of nearby Israeli troops, Ariel Sharon SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THE DEATHS WERE ABOUT TO OCCURR AND SHOULD HAVE TRIED TO PREVENT THEM. For this he was removed from his post as a consequence.

This proves that Israel is willing to conduct self examinations of allegations of criminal conduct on the part of its own military.

Steve keeps bringing this case up because he needs to prove the Israelis are cold-blooder killers and have committed massacres. But he ignores far fresher massacres with much higher death tolls in order to find a case which he can accuse an Israeli.

And even though he had to go back 23 years to find an "Israeli" massacre, all he can find is a reprimand of Sharon for failing to stop an massacre by a Lebanese Christian Phalanx.

Re: London Mayor Calls Sharon "War Criminal"

The Israeli investigation of Sabra and Shatila is a whitewash of Israel's crimes against humanity in the mass murder of 3,000 innocents.

The case of Brian Avery was also a crime and I don't need an official Israeli whitewash to lie to me on that case either.



For Arab residents of south Lebanon, PLO rule was a nightmare. After the PLO was expelled from Jordan by King Hussein in 1970, many of its cadres went to Lebanon. The PLO seized whole areas of the country, where it brutalized the population and usurped Lebanese government authority.

On October 14, 1976, Lebanese Ambassador Edward Ghorra told the UN General Assembly the PLO was bringing ruin upon his country: “Palestinian elements belonging to various splinter organizations resorted to kidnaping Lebanese, and sometimes foreigners, holding them prisoners, questioning them, and even sometimes killing them.?6a

Columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, not known for being sympathetic toward Israel, declared after touring south Lebanon and Beirut that the facts "tend to support Israel's claim that the PLO has become permeated by thugs and adventurers."6b

The columnists talked to a doctor whose farm had been taken over without compensation by the PLO, and turned into a military depot. "You ask how do we like the Israelis," he said. "Compared to the hell we have had in Lebanon, the Israelis are brothers." Other Lebanese — Christian and Muslim alike — gave similar accounts.

Countless Lebanese told harrowing tales of rape, mutilation and murders committed by PLO forces. The PLO "killed people and threw their corpses in the courtyards. Some of them were mutilated and their limbs were cut off. We did not go out for fear that we might end up like them," said two Arab women from Sidon. "We did not dare go to the beach, because they molested us, weapons in hand." The women spoke of an incident, which occurred shortly before the Israeli invasion, in which PLO men raped and murdered a woman, dumping her body near a famous statue. A picture of the victim's mangled corpse had been printed in a local newspaper.7

Dr. Khalil Torbey, a distinguished Lebanese surgeon, told an American journalist that he was "frequently called in the middle of the night to attend victims of PLO torture. I treated men whose testicles had been cut off in torture sessions. The victims, more often than not, were...Muslims. I saw men — live men — dragged through the streets by fast-moving cars to which they were tied by their feet."8

New York Times correspondent David Shipler visited Damour, a Christian village near Beirut, which had been occupied by the PLO since 1976, when Palestinians and Lebanese leftists sacked the city and massacred hundreds of its inhabitants. The PLO, Shipler wrote, had turned the town into a military base, "using its churches as strongholds and armories" (New York Times, June 21, 1982).

When the IDF drove the PLO out of Damour in June 1982, Prime Minister Menachem Begin announced that the town's Christian residents could come home and rebuild. Returning villagers found their former homes littered with spray-painted Palestinian nationalist slogans, Fatah literature and posters of Yasser Arafat. They told Shipler how happy they were that Israel had liberated them.9


The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16-17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.15

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians.16 The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.17

Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision. The Kahan Commission of Inquiry, formed by the Israeli government in response to public outrage and grief, found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, including the dismissal of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff.

The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy....There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode."18

Recently, efforts have been made in Belgium to try Sharon for his role in what happened in Lebanon. The appellate court there, however, threw out the case.[fn Radio Free Europe/Radio Free Liberty, (June 26, 2002).] The European campaign appears designed to smear Israel in general, and Sharon in particular, and is particularly odious given that Israel's own democratic judicial institutions already dealt with this tragedy.

Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000 people, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed — the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War.19 These killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.19a


Re: London Mayor Calls Sharon "War Criminal"


By Robert Fisk

What we found inside the Palestinian camp at ten o'clock on the morning of September 1982 did not quite beggar description, although it would have been easier to re-tell in the cold prose of a medical examination. There had been medical examinations before in Lebanon, but rarely on this scale and never overlooked by a regular, supposedly disciplined army. In the panic and hatred of battle, tens of thousands had been killed in this country. But these people, hundreds of them had been shot down unarmed. This was a mass killing, an incident - how easily we used the word "incident" in Lebanon - that was also an atrocity. It went beyond even what the Israelis would have in other circumstances called a terrorist activity. It was a war crime.

Jenkins and Tveit were so overwhelmed by what we found in Chatila that at first we were unable to register our own shock. Bill Foley of AP had come with us. All he could say as he walked round was "Jesus Christ" over and over again. We might have accepted evidence of a few murders; even dozens of bodies, killed in the heat of combat. Bur there were women lying in houses with their skirts torn torn up to their waists and their legs wide apart, children with their throats cut, rows of young men shot in the back after being lined up at an execution wall. There were babies - blackened babies babies because they had been slaughtered more than 24-hours earlier and their small bodies were already in a state of decomposition - tossed into rubbish heaps alongside discarded US army ration tins, Israeli army equipment and empty bottles of whiskey.

Where were the murderers? Or to use the Israelis' vocabulary, where were the "terrorists"? When we drove down to Chatila, we had seen the Israelis on the top of the apartments in the Avenue Camille Chamoun but they made no attempt to stop us. In fact, we had first been driven to the Bourj al-Barajneh camp because someone told us that there was a massacre there. All we saw was a Lebanese soldier chasing a car theif down a street. It was only when we were driving back past the entrance to Chatila that Jenkins decided to stop the car. "I don't like this", he said. "Where is everyone? What the f**k is that smell?"

Just inside the the southern entrance to the camp, there used to be a number of single-story, concrete walled houses. I had conducted many interviews in these hovels in the late 1970's. When we walked across the muddy entrance to Chatila, we found that these buildings had been dynamited to the ground. There were cartridge cases across the main road. I saw several Israeli flare canisters, still attached to their tiny parachutes. Clouds of flies moved across the rubble, raiding parties with a nose for victory.

Down a laneway to our right, no more than 50 yards from the entrance, there lay a pile of corpses. There were more than a dozen of them, young men whose arms and legs had been wrapped around each other in the agony of death. All had been shot point-blank range through the cheek, the bullet tearing away a line of flesh up to the ear and entering the brain. Some had vivid crimson or black scars down the left side of their throats. One had been castrated, his trousers torn open and a settlement of flies throbbing over his torn intestines.

The eyes of these young men were all open. The youngest was only 12 or 13 years old. They were dressed in jeans and coloured shirts, the material absurdly tight over their flesh now that their bodies had begun to bloat in the heat. They had not been robbed. On one blackened wrist a Swiss watch recorded the correct time, the second hand still ticking round uselessly, expending the last energies of its dead owner.

On the other side of the main road, up a track through the debris, we found the bodies of five women and several children. The women were middle-aged and their corpses lay draped over a pile of rubble. One lay on her back, her dress torn open and the head of a little girl emerging from behind her. The girl had short dark curly hair, her eyes were staring at us and there was a frown on her face. She was dead.

Another child lay on the roadway like a discarded doll, her white dress stained with mud and dust. She could have been no more than three years old. The back of her head had been blown away by a bullet fired into her brain. One of the women also held a tiny baby to her body. The bullet that had passed into her breast had killed the baby too. Someone had slit open the woman's stomach, cutting sideways and then upwards, perhaps trying to kill her unborn child. Her eyes were wide open, her dark face frozen in horror.

"...As we stood there, we heard a shout in Arabic from across the ruins. "They are coming back," a man was screaming, So we ran in fear towards the road. I think, in retrospect, that it was probably anger that stopped us from leaving, for we now waited near the entrance to the camp to glimpse the faces of the men who were responsible for all of this. They must have been sent in here with Israeli permission. They must have been armed by the Israelis. Their handiwork had clearly been watched - closely observed - by the Israelis who were still watching us through their field-glasses.

When does a killing become an outrage? When does an atrocity become a massacre? Or, put another way, how many killings make a massacre? Thirty? A hundred? Three hundred? When is a massacre not a massacre? When the figures are too low? Or when the massacre is carried out by Israel’s friends rather than Israel's enemies?

That, I suspected, was what this argument was about. If Syrian troops had crossed into Israel, surrounded a Kibbutz and allowed their Palestinian allies to slaughter the Jewish inhabitants, no Western news agency would waste its time afterwards arguing about whether or not it should be called a massacre.

But in Beirut, the victims were Palestinians. The guilty were certainly Christian militiamen - from which particular unit we were still unsure - but the Israelis were also guilty. If the Israelis had not taken part in the killings, they had certainly sent militia into the camp. They had trained them, given them uniforms, handed them US army rations and Israeli medical equipment. Then they had watched the murderers in the camps, they had given them military assistance - the Israeli airforce had dropped all those flares to help the men who were murdering the inhabitants of Sabra and Chatila - and they had established military liason with the murderers in the camps


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