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LOCAL Announcement :: Civil & Human Rights : Womyn

Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Overall, the Seabright Brewery seems like a fun, locally-owned brew pub that makes some decent beers on site. The employees and locals seem to like it and it's conveniently located in Santa Cruz near the beach. However, a peek into the women's restroom shows outmoded imagery that makes light of the victimization of women. Yuck! Looks like it's time to clean the crap off the walls of the women's bathroom at the Seabright Brewery...
Click on image for a larger version

hitthedeck.jpg
Hit The Deck: "Oh, look! A woman has fallen. Let's make her look sexually vulnerable and then make sexual innuendos about her physical injury."
Click on image for a larger version

flankattack.jpg
Here is another sexual innuendo, with the "goose" (a substitution for a man) sexually abusing a woman. The double entendre adds an element of humor to something that is not funny. In actuality it portrays something violating this woman's physical boundaries.
Click on image for a larger version

observationpost.jpg
Here are two postcards. The one on the right cleverly pokes fun at the stereotypes of the past. I think it's great! The one of the left is really troubling. Again, a nonperson is substituted in the image for a man. The insinuation with the caption "Observation Post" is that this substitution has pulled away the woman's clothing and is looking at her private parts. (Have you noticed a military theme in these images yet? )
Click on image for a larger version

pursuittype.jpg
"Pursuit Type:" the insinuation here is that this sexually stylized, terrified-looking woman with a short, very accessible skirt is the type of woman to pursue. From the omnious looking shadows behind her, you can reason that this "pursuit" means rape. To soften this insinuation, there is a very small mouse in the left hand corner. This is also a misogynistic message, insinuating that a female soldier is a deserting coward who runs at the sight of a mouse.
Some ephemera of the past is fun and provides a humorous glimpse into the past. Some of it is indicative of the sexist, racist and violent past which produced it.

Can you imagine the Seabright Brewery management posting exaggerated images of African-Americans eating watermelon? How about old, racist caricatures of Japanese, Jews or Mexicans? Why could anyone ever feel like images that sexualize the victimization of women are no problem? Personally, I'm shocked that the owner has been able to do business with this kind of imagery posted in his restaurant.

These postcards are just a few examples of hateful illustrations displayed in the women's restroom. This is particularly degrading since you cannot escape these images if you need to use the facilities.

These images are subtle, but make powerful statements about sexual violence against women. Little girls and young women use these bathrooms, too. What kind of messages do these images send to them?

It's time for the management of Seabright Brewery to start respecting females.

Call owner Charlie Meehan and let him know how you feel about these outdated images that are insulting to half of the population.

Tell him that you won't eat at a restarant that has disgusting bathrooms! It's time to clean up the women's bathroom and wipe the crap off the walls!

He can be reached at (831) 426-2739 during the day.
 
 


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Comments

Men's Room at Seabright Brewery Just As Bad.

The men's room is just as bad, if not worse.

What's up with this BS?
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

those pictures are wrong and they are an embarasing to look at for me.I think we should take all those pictures of and put pictures of people around the world and how they dress instead of posers
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

The posters are abhorrant! Making fun of minorities is no longer acceptable but some think its "OK" to ridicule women.

Women are 52% of the human population but are still treated like minorities are treated in a racist society.

Under global patriarchy, an overwhelming majority of women are kept in a childish state and are not allowed to travel alone, control their reproduction, work outside the home and are even forbidden to get an education in many nations.

Fortunately this is changing.
 

Sexism is Alive And Well

"Two things made this country great: White men & Christianity. The degree these two have diminished is in direct proportion to the corruption and fall of the nation. Every problem that has arisen (sic) can be directly traced back to our departure from God's Law and the disenfranchisement of White men."

- State Rep. Don Davis (R-NC), e-mailed to every member of the North Carolina House and Senate, reported by The Fayetteville Observer, 08-22-01
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

White christian men invented "god" and wrote the script (scripture") that they say is "gods" word. They use "god" as their cosmic ventriliquist dummy to grant themselves power over women. Their phony imaginary "god" is supposedly against abortion and womens rights. (do they believe in the easter bunny too?)

conservative men are against abortion because
1. they are afraid women would eventually drive them extinct if they chose to abort male fetuses.
2. fetuses keep the male dominated economy expanding by creating a surplus of cheap workers, soldiers and consumers.

The "right to life" warranty begins to expire upon birth (education, welfare and child nutrition programs underfunded) and is cancelled at age 18 when men send ex-fetuses to their deaths in the latest oil war.
3. a global surplus of males is wreaking havoc in many nations. When young males total more than 35% of a nations population, war is inevitable. Google "Male surplus". in india and China. They are called "bare branches" and are causing crime and violence.
 

Nothing a can of spray paint can't fix

Also vote with your feet. Money talks. Get your beer else where.
 

Sexy art is dirty?

Well gee, you figured out that there is some symbology in these 40's and 50's poster art. Aren't you clever! However what you choose to interpret into the symbology is your own fearmongering and "political correctness" of the downtrodden "minority". Sexual innuendo? Sure. Rape? I don't think so. You see, I remember when just exposing a knee was considered sexy. This art was considered racy and risque by the prudes of that era. I wonder what interpretation you would dream up for "Rosey the Riveter"? -- downtrodden victim of the white male war machine?

Have you listened to any popular music lately? Get some perspective. Even the successful women who have control over their careers are flaunting their sexuality because they realize they are happy sexual beings.

Also, women's magazines are some of the worst offenders of this kind of symbology and stereotyping. But it's the "powerful white men" doing all this to you isn't it? They have brainwashed all us women into buying this crap, right? If it were only that simple....
 

Re:Sexy Art is Dirty?

No, the issue is NOT that the images are "sexy," but that the women in these images are consistently disempowered and made to look helpless and/or vulnerable.

If this were a "cheesecake" photo of Jane Mansfield or a similar sexy star of the era, it would be somewhat different. Why? Because those images imparted sexuality without the female subject being harrassed or attacked. They often even gave the impression that she was wholly comfortable with and in control of her sexuality.

The images on the wall at Seabright Brewery seem only to consist of the images that disempower.

I hope you can recognize the difference.


internetdump.com/users/eldacur/Cheesecake-1.5-Classics.html

www.btinternet.com/~brmerc/Pinup1.html
 

Being Attacked Isn't Sexy

Typical. "not scared," who makes excuses for imagery which portrays violence against women, apparently can't read since s/he tries to turn around the point of this article from "condoing preying upon women is unacceptable" to "sexy art is dirty."

"Prude?" I think it is funny how quickly that epithet flies out of some people's mouth whenever someone remotely challenges *any* instance of the exploitation of women. The whole idea of "prude" (translation: "She's not giving me sex.") is a male-oriented, moralistic construct, as is "slut" ("She's giving other guys sex instead of me!"), "nymphomaniac" ("Shit! This woman can sexually outlast me!") and "bitch" ("This woman's got balls!") Think about it. Why are there virtually no male corrollaries for these terms?

Many (though not all) men, past and present, have attempted to own female sexuality. Sometimes it has taken the form of having unequal standards dress standards or controlling what women do with their bodies; the other extreme includes "allowing" women sexual freedom, so long as they serve (some) men's sexual desires without question. The moment someone starts to even question if something might be harmful or degrading to women, watch the gender-based epithets fly!

Funny. 'not afraid' accuses others of making moralistic judgements about sex ("sexy art is dirty?"), but s/he is actually the one making moral pronouncements.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I got a call back from Charlie on Friday night. I had left him a message telling him that I found these images offensive. He called me back, but he didn't seem at all concerned about them or about what I had to say.

He said that one of his managers (a female) had picked them out and seemed to think just because "the girls" said they were okay, then he wasn't responsible for them at all.

I told him that I had been to these restrooms and, while I thought many of the images were cool, several of them depicted violence against women. He didn't seem to care and then I asked him what he would think about putting up racist pictures of African, Mexican or Jewish Americans. All of the sudden he got really defensive and starting saying something like, "Well, what about the way white construction workers are portrayed?" And then he made another comparison about how he thought that white men were treated unfairly in media. He told me that he votes Democratic, but then said that I needed to "get some perspective". He seemed to be insinuating that he thought people made too much of sexist and racist imagery.

Honestly, I was pretty disappointed. Usually, business owners at least try to pretend that they care about the feelings of the customer, but I didn't get that impression from him. He said that he would look at the pictures on Monday to see if he thinks they need to be taken down.

We'll see what happens. Personally, I won't eat at a place that forces me look at pictures of women being degraded if I have to use the bathroom.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

geezuz, get a life mate, theres far more important things than this, if you dont like it, why do you go there?
 

Taken out of Context -- What do you know about the 50's?

These illustrations were created in the 40's or 50's. What do any of you know about the morals and customs of those times. Are any of you over 30 years old? What do you know about Illustrators of that era and their themes and reasons for the setup and setting portrayed? Obviously, very little. These illustrations need to be placed inside the proper context of the time of their creation and the mores and values of that era.

Another shocker for you. The illustrator is a WOMAN! Zoe Mozert. You're being oppressed by symbology created by a woman. But then she was mentored by a manipulative, oppressive man-mentor. She couldn't have actually enjoyed making this art except if she was used or oppressed by a man. (I'm trying to save you the effort of replying with the usual dogma tripe.)

You obviously are interpreting her art from your own time perspective, not realizing that the reason for the "attack" or "surprise element" of the illustration is because there was no other way a woman could be shown as exposing so much bare skin and still be depicted as an "innocent" back in those times. The short skirt with the attacking goose is just over the top. This was 20 years before the advent of the Miniskirt. It's a Fantasy setup, perhaps an homage to some other painting. Hint, hint. The goose could symbolize any number of things. Go ahead -- you pick the most exploitative one and run with that.

Before you jump to erroneous conclusions that your interpretation of this art has any bearing to the facts of the matter you should do some more homework. You get a D- for your shallow dogmatic efforts.

I'm a Victim! They're exploiting me! I'm being attacked by nasty, manipulative old white men! I'm a Victim! The sky is falling....
 

Deeper Context

OK, let's try this once more...

Check out the pin-ups at these sites:

internetdump.com/users/eldacur/Cheesecake-1.5-Classics.html

_www.btinternet.com/~brmerc/Pinup1.html

You'll notice that some of the images found there are even from... imagine this... Zoe Mozert! And look, none of the images involve women who are clumsy, afraid, and/or being pestered/attacked.

So give up on the "you just don't understand that era" bullshit. Try actually doing a little research before spouting off your uninformed nonsense.

There's a difference between healthy sexuality and that which is debasing, demeaning, humiliating...
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

these pics are a pretty obvious bad idea. im surpised that somebody would keep them up if people made enough fuss. as a side note, "images that are insulting to half of the population." As not part of that half of the population, im still pretty insulted.
 

Yuck! Dirty interpretations of Women's Art

The illustrations were created by a woman.

The art was chosen and installed by women on the staff (at least according to your conversation with the owner).

The illustrations have a military theme because they were created during the WWII era.

Your interpretation has no more validity than anyone elses.

Who hasn't been startled by a small little mouse? Is that so hard to believe? Or doesn't that scenario fit into your diatribe?

"From the omnious looking shadows behind her, you can reason that this "pursuit" means rape."

Dark "ominous looking shadows" mean rape? -- You are really twisted.

The goose is really just protecting her goslings from an invading attack by a homo sapiens. The goose is protecting her young from a destructive, invasive species that threatens its environment and its young. (you uncaring species-ist)

Please stay out of art museums and other public places so that you won't be attacked by similar threatening images. Then you will be safe. Lock the doors and don't watch any TV or listen to the radio. You may have your dogma attacked by open minds.
 

Insensitivity is not good for profits in SC.

If you look at a broader swath of Zoe Mozert's work, you'll quickly notice that this WWII-era series has a feel to it unlike the rest of her works.

Her other pieces (both before and after) are much warmer, engaging. They're usually of higher quality... more detailed. And they don't involve her subjects falling down, having their skirts pulled up, nor being chased or patted on the ass.

For example, take a look at these pieces from Mozert: www.thepinupfiles.com/mozert.html

Even the ones that are far more explicit (e.g., Bubbles) maintain a healthy, respectful quality.
There is never a suggestion that the subject is or should be harrassed, chased, or ridiculed.
 

Still Not Addressing the Issue

Zoe Mozert is a woman. Big deal. That's like saying black people *can't* oppose the No Child Left Behind Act because Armstrong Williams supported it.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Here is Charlie Meehans email address:

charlie (at) seabright.com

Flood him with emails!!!
 

Has anyone complained to the owner?

We are activists. Right?

Call Charlie Meehan at (831) 426-2739 and ask that he remove the images.

If he refuses then:

Pickett the place. Start a boycott.
Protest outside and demand the removal of the images.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I love your "interpretations" of Zoe's art - I wouldn't have everseen the flagrant abuse of women being portrayed without your generous insight. Seriously, are you serious?: "a goose sexually abusing a woman". Seriously - you are a joke. Where did you get this stuff? I'm betting these are replie from your Women's Studies class at UC, no? Do you really think that taking these images down is helping your cause, whatever that might be? I'm assuming you are against the objectification of women. The problem is, that it was women who created this art (yes, art), and women who chose to display it! The manager who posted these is a friend of mine, who is a feminist and a proud, strong and beautiful woman. Many of my hip female friends are into old pinup art, as it points to the beauty of women, and because they're not the insecure man-hater types, but rather, are independent, free-thinking women who can actually appreciate the beauty of the female form! If you want to help women - go help women. Go to the midwest, and fight anti-abortionists, or help educate young men on the proper way to treat women, invent a better tampon, anything other than whine about inconsequential media, which affects no-one, just because it happens to displease you because it isn't an image of a fluffy kitten hugging a lesbian... Please, leave Charlie alone. If you don't like the art, don't look at it. It sounds like you're going to the wrong bathroom anyway.
 

Seabright Brewery? No Thanks. Let's Go Somewhere Else.

>It sounds like you're going
>to the wrong bathroom anyway.

Actually, it sounds like we're going to the wrong business establishment.

If it's going to take this much effort just to try to get the mgmt/owner to recognize the offensiveness of the decorations, then I'll just go somewhere else. As will my friends. Will we put the place out of business? No. But we will take hundreds (and over time, thousands) of dollars of business away from SB and give it to someone else. Just the other day, I was headed out with a bunch (8-10) of friends; when someone suggested SB, I told them all about this issue and everyone agreed that we should go somewhere else. (There's a couple hundred bucks, right there.)

As for CK and others:
I'm not interested in wasting my time butting heads with small-minded idiots who, rather than listen to my points, just blather on about how I'm one of those "insecure man-hater types" who doesn't understand art history and/or the use and effect of propaganda, and who suggest that I would rather see "an image of a fluffy kitten hugging a lesbian." Go Fuck Yourself.

For the millionth time:
These images aren't about appreciation of the female form... at least, not in the way that most pin-ups are (even the other works by Zoe Mozert). This particular series of pin-ups consistently portrays its subjects as "pretty but inept" in that they are clumsy, cowardly, easily abused, and vulnerable to attack (in a way that makes light of their attackers).

Considering the (presumed) era that they were created (WWII), another related interpretation of the message sent in these images goes thusly:
"Imagine women in the military. They'd just screw everything up. Try to scrub the deck? She'd fall over and flail. In the field, the enemy would sneak up behind her and she'd never see them until they had their hand on her ass. Make her the "lookout" and she wouldn't see the enemy until they were lifting up her skirt. And as for combat, she'd run in terror at the sight of a little mouse, much less a firefight on the frontlines."

Look at Mozert's other works:
www.thepinupfiles.com/mozert.html
If you're paying any attention whatsoever, you'll notice that all of her other works treat her subject's in a completely different manner.

For myself, I like Mozert's work. Her style is undeniably impressive and, except for this series, her representation of her subjects is fun and respectful.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Obviously some hardbitten female with no sense of humor chooses to be offended again! They're a dime a dozen and I just wish I had the figure and face of these 1940s girls! There was a big war on...hence the military theme!!! Author must be to young to know the history! Art is art...beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Crankyness and pessimism vs light hearted optimism see the art as as glass empty/glass full! Go get a life! There's a real world out there who's heels you can hound!
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Hi La Lucha, don't waste you time trying to get through the thick skulls of sexist men and their Barbie Cheerleaders (men's little helpers).

Here are their standard responses:

1.Sexism is cute and OK if "the artist was a woman" (so by this "logic" opposing affirmative action is OK for blacks since a black man opposes it -Clarence Thomas)
2. If you object to anti woman sexism you are a "humorless feminist" aka "What's the matter cant you take a joke?"
3. white men are oppressed too
4. Sexism is "art"

You have the right idea. Boycott the brewery and encourage your friends to do the same.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

you bums don't come here to buy beer or anything else. you just come here to panhandle for money and to use the restroom "for free" we are considering pay or token stalls to keep all the bums out. take your freak show some where else
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Oh, La Lucha, your feline insanity will be so sorely missed at the Brewery (meow)! You're absolutely right, this issue is of significant importance and relevance to our community! Santa Cruz is chock full of sexist / racist types who are totally unaccepting and generally bad for the environment also. Seabright management and staff especially - are all just bad people. I think we'll hold our next clan rally there... I can't state how much I regret not getting to laugh at you picketting for this, uh, "cause", but thank you sincerely for adding some humor to my world.

Cheers BABE! (clinking sound of pint of ale)

ck
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention, I’m gonna boycott the Seabright Brewery along with the following

Galleria degli Uffizi in Florence – For showing Sandro Botticelli’s “Birth of Venus? Obviously this one portrays/encourages rape
www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/botticelli/venus/

Giraudon: Paris, France – For showing Picasso’s Les Demoiselles d’Avignon
Portrays women in Cubism (which I find offensive, makes me think of rape)
cgfa.sunsite.dk/picasso/picasso2.jpg

The Tate Gallery: London England – for showing Picasso’s Weeping woman
This woman shown in a submissive “weeping? state, probably after being raped (that Picasso was a bastard)
cgfa.sunsite.dk/picasso/picasso5.jpg

Metropolitan Museum of art in NYC – countless violations

The MOMA in NYC and San Francisco – Countless violations

All Public libraries – for having books with these images

All Bookstores – For having books with these images

So thanks again for bringing this to my attention. I say we start boycotting and picketing ASAP. Lets start at Seabright and work our way through the other museums and libraries until we get to MOMA in SF. Then we can hit the east coast and then Europe. Cause all the other stuff going on in the world pails in comparison to the FUCKING SEABRIGHT BATHROOM!
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

The best I can come up with to 'splain your article is that you took eight Womyn's Oppression classes at UCSC (and got A in each one) and took one Critical Thinking class and got a D-.

Your interpretations of the meaning behind the drawings is your OPINION -- which you certainly are entitled to. They have no basis in fact or relationship to the TRUTH (if there is such a thing). Art interpretation is an excercise in expressing the SUBJECTIVE feelings and emotions that the piece of art has upon the INDIVIDUAL. As such, each individual will have a different feeling about a piece of art according to their personal experiences, education, cultural background, family life, morals, values and countless other personal influences including brainwashing.

Please don't try to inflict your sick interpretations on the rest of society. This is the mark of a fanatic or zealot. The evangelical christians believe that anyone who doesn't take Jesus Christ as their personal savior is destined for eternal damnation. That's fine if they want to believe that but I'm not going to listen to their version of what living is all about. I've got my own ideas. I don't go to their church and tell them they are full of it and that they should listen to my personal philosophy. I don't like proselytizers. If an idea is good enough people will seek it out. If it is weak then people will be sent out to proselytize or propogandize for it.

Trying to force your world view and opinions on others is how fights are started. If that is what you are after you certainly have succeeded. You have stirred up a lot of animosity on both sides. The politicians that you hate are also good at this. Polarizing people who may have a lot of other things in common is not an honorable pursuit. But then you are "Activists" ... without a real cause, tilting at pinwheels.


A few questions:

What do you think was the artist's intent for these illustrations?

Do you think Zoe Mozert was trying to demean the women in these illustrations?

Did you know that the model in the first, second and last illustrations is Zoe herself?

Do you think art should be censored or removed from display because it offends a certain political interest group?

Do you think you will be missed at the Seabright Brewery?
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

This was the most entertaining 10 minutes of my life reading through all of this bullshit. C'mon now. I worked at the Seabright Brewery for over 3 years and Charlie was the best boss and most genuine person that I have ever had to work for. Have you ever heard of freedom of speech and expression, or was that one of the most integral elements of a modern art education that you simply slept through? Leave the Brewery alone and find a cause that is truly worth fighting for...look around at the state of the world today and try to tell me that there are not more important causes to rally behind. All you're giving the Brewery with all of this is free advertising...did you ever think about that genius?
 

Misogynists Can't Handle Logical Feminist Arguments

Hey smartboys,

Maybe you didn't notice this, but all anyone was hoping for was that some cheap-ass pin-up displays might get switched up with some different shit to take their place for a spell. Is that REALLY so much to ask for? Some folks were offended by the pictures. So, maybe, can we try something different for a little while? Then, when that "new" stuff has been up as long as the current ones, put up something else again. I mean, really, all you motherfuckers seem to argue that art is art and it's all totally subjective and any one person's opinion is complete bullshit, so I suggest that in place of the current art display there be a photo retrospective of women's marches of the last several decades. It's art, you know, so you won't have anything to say against it. Besides, you're all men, so you'll never fucking see it, anyway.


La Lucha Continua


PS: I love it when you mini-dicked misogynists assume what my gender might be. Hahahaha. You're such a bunch of losers.
 

keep backing down

Ha Ha! You silly gooses think you should have a say in what a local business displays in its bathrooms. Maybe you learned something today after all. Art IS subjective. What offends one person is exquisite to another person and is just plain uninteresting to someone else. Wow! What a revelation.

Harassment of the management is what you advocated. Now you're backing down and saying you were just trying to get the art changed. Why should you have any say in what goes on there? You made a lot of stupid assumptions about the art. Now they are all being revealed as a crock. You look like a fool so now you are backing down. Give it up whiner. Go struggle with your education. You've got a long way to go. You are wasting your bandwidth trying to fan the flames of pseudo feminism. Don't you have a term paper to download? Oh, that's right school hasn't started yet.

This must be your attempt at "How I Saved the Planet During My Summer Vacation". Sorry you couldn't come up with something that worked. Keep struggling.

Ad hominum attacks are your only defense. Try this one: You came to a battle of wits with a dry squirt gun.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

LA-LA-LA-LA LUCHA, No one ever assumed you were ever a female were all just bummed that your a male fighting for art in a restroom that you cant even shake your little wee-wee in front of. What happened to the million (wo)man march picketing art? Is that today? I'll be there....Bro! Just come inside I'll be at the bar eating some of tastiest fish-n-chips in town talking with the friendliest staff having fun! Sorry your missing out all because of art.
Your probably thinking I'm an idiot. Your Right! So before you reply La Quiche, let me just comment. I have no education, I'm stupid, I cant get laid, and yes I have a little pee-pee. I can't even recognize good art when I see it, nor construct a simple sentence and I use spell check, but I'll tell you what. I do have friends. I like the brewery they in turn like the brewery as well. So stay the fuck out of Seabright you little fruitball! Keep plugging the brewery, your the smartest guy i've ever met!
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Oh, this has been great - I truly enjoy making angry man-haters angrier. I guess that makes me a man-hater-hater. (Really, I'm just a hater-hater...)

You see, you assume that since these pics piss you off that it pisses off "half" the population, when in reality is pisses off about 1% of the population. You "ladies" think that since this one percent is 100% of the people in your drum circle last night, that the rest of the world should get equally as offended, but the fact is: no one cares, because this has no adverse affect on society in any way other than making over-zealous man-hating feminists cringe! Why should SB, or ANYONE cater to you, just because you have poor taste, and picked a useless major?! As a personal perference, I don't like purple, so should I boycott / protest every business that chooses to display the color?

The fact is that SB owners, managers and staff are truly wonderful people - I've known them for a decade now, and they are like family. You attack them, and I will defend them, even if you are just ignorant: blanket statements about men, small penises, our "Barbie Cheerleeders"... I don't think you all could have gotten even a D- in Critical Thinking, really. Your logic is so flawed, yet you point to us as "misogynists" and "sexists"? You are the most sexist people I've ever come across!!

Once again, thank you all, this has been absolutely precious... It's been some time since I've laughed so hard.

With Love,

ck (misogynist, sexist, small penis-owner, rapist)
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Having been in Michigan on a retreat with some female friends, I wasn't here to experience to initial article submitted by Hiraeth, provocatively titled Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery! It is tough to be shaken out of ones idyllic mode by such remarks as were contained in the article. I won't argue the fact that the pictures (which I had not seen) are in less than "politically correct" taste. Indeed they are not what I myself would have chosen. I will however, argue that it is unfair and incredibly biased to use your platform to condemn a man and his business because you happen to be insulted by or disagree with his (or in this case his female manager's) decor selection, in or out of the bathroom. Would you discard a friend or picket his house because you disapproved the art displayed in the home? Would you bang your drum and encourage your other friends to avoid a woman friend's house because of the images she had tacked to her bathroom walls?
This business has employed hundreds of people and contributed tremendously to this community since its inception nearly 18 years ago. You are unlikely to excogitate the number of suggestions, insults, comments, compliments, rules, taxes, city codes, directions, insinuations and general "this is what you should do" commentary and directions that Charlie has experienced since our opening in 1988.
It seems terribly unfair to me that you can showcase your ideas and perceptions behind the relative anonymity of your article; which is given credence simply because it exists in the type of format that it does; thereby reducing my husband to something less than he actually is. I consider it much more offensive for someone to attack another person and his livelihood because she/he might disagree with the decor in the bathroom. Your description of the "crap" on the bathroom walls was especially demeaning and execrable. You should probably be aware that in this era of social ills and unavailable public bathrooms in Santa Cruz county, we have made our bathrooms available to anyone who needed them. This, in spite of the fact that Charlie had his bicycle stolen from one person who he let in specifically to use the bathroom even before we had opened for business. This, in spite of the fact that I personally shared the bathroom (inadvertently) with an employee from one of the upstairs businesses who was smoking crack in one of the other stalls. Charlie has scraped human excrement off of the sidewalk in front of the brewery as well as in front of the office door on more than one occasion. We have had real life "crap" and vomit and all manner of vile excretous matter smeared on the walls. The bathrooms have had items stolen and graffitied, toilets have been dismantled and defaced. We continue to offer the service of our bathrooms to all of our patrons. Suffice to say that the pictures on the walls pale in comparison to some of the real-life "crap" we have experienced.
Charlie related to me that during your telephone conversation he indicated that the female manager had made the design decisions about the bathroom. He implied that she was in the best position (being female and all) to judge what another woman might find offensive. At this, I believe that you suggested that she was young and not old enough to understand the implications and subversive messages the art might propagate. I would argue that she is an adult female, intelligent and very well versed in our culture (and counter-culture)and that she chose the pictures because she liked them. Moreover, while I can't speak for her, I think I can safely say that she would be offended at your inference that she is not sophisticated (or old) enough to make a decision about how to adorn the bathroom walls at her place of business. Your entire position smacks of the kind of paranoid damaging stereotypical labling (sexist, racist et al) that so many people attach to those persons whose opinions they oppose or do not fully understand.
Your opening paragraph pretty much said it all. It's a pity that you didn't stop there. It seems like a shameful waste of energy for someone of your prodigious skills to be wasting them on such a non-issue as a BATHROOM in a local restaurant. How about you leave Charlie (a loving, humorous, gentle, caring, devoted father, husband, friend, son, brother, uncle and community supporter) alone and find us a new president or at the least, labor doggedly at something else more worthwhile and commensurate with your formidable talents. Your choice, and isn't it nice to have one. Sincerely, Gail Meehan
 

No Pickets Required...

>What do you think was the
>artist's intent for these
>illustrations?

Obviously, none of us can know for certain, but it does seem odd that this particular series of pin-ups differs notably from the rest of her work. Why? Perhaps it was at the request of the client who commissioned it.


>Do you think Zoe Mozert was
>trying to demean the women
>in these illustrations?

This is essentially the same question as previous. But I doubt that Mozert was consciously intending that these illustrations be demeaning towards women. However, an artist's intent or lack thereof to demean (or promote, etc) does not alone make it so. An artist can intend to impart something through their art, but fail to do so. Or, they may impart something unintentionally. I'm actually surprised that you would even ask this question after you took so much time and space to discuss the inherently subjective nature of art interpretation. If every person's interpretation of a piece of art is unique and equal, then the intention of the artist is totally irrelevant, isn't it? Further, if the only individuals that are going to view these pieces of art are women, then the fact that some men aren't offended by the works is, again, totally irrelevant.

>Did you know that the model
>in the first, second and last
>illustrations is Zoe herself?

I know that Mozert frequently used herself as the model for her artwork, but this is meaningless in regard to whether the illustrations tend to demean women.

>Do you think art should be
>censored or removed from
>display because it offends
>a certain political interest
>group?

Censorship is an act taken by a government, or a group in a dominant position of power. Obviously, that is not applicable here. But in general, as a society, we all apparently agree that it is acceptable that certain types of art -- certain subject matter -- is not allowed to be viewed by anyone (e.g., kiddie porn) or by particular viewers (e.g., Playboy, etc). If you disagree with this, then I urge you to stop wasting your time with this tiny little issue and instead engage yourself fully in the ongoing fight against very real and significant attempts to repress and/or censor ideas and artwork all over this "free" country of ours.

>Do you think you will
>be missed at the Seabright
>Brewery?

I could really care less.
I estimate that over the last ten years I've personally spent a couple thousand dollars at SB. However, because of the concerned and sensitive response from the SB owner on this matter, I estimate that in the next ten years I'll spend appx ZERO dollars there. That'll be my personal, private picket. And it sounds like I won't be alone in that decision.

>...LA LUCHA, No one ever
>assumed you were ever a
>female...

Yes, they did. Perhaps you should actually read the previous posts -- the ones that I was responding to -- before making ignorant comments.

However, that assumption may have been correct. Or, maybe not. Within the standard gender paradigm, you've got a 50/50 shot at it. My point was that those who identified as feminists were assumed to be women by (at least some of) the goons around here. That's a stupid and ignorant assumption to make, especially in Santa Cruz.

>Harassment of the management
>is what you advocated. Now
>you're backing down and
>saying you were just trying
>to get the art changed.

NO.
Getting the art changed was the point from the start. Expressing concerns and requests to the management was merely a logical method for achieving that end.
Duh.

>but the fact is: no one cares

Actually, you guys seem to care A LOT. Otherwise, why bother with all this?

>Ad hominum attacks are
>your only defense.

Personally, while I've lobbed a few insults at the "other" side, my argument, on balance, is not ad hominem. I've made a number of clear points that spoke directly to the issue; nobody reponds to those points. When they fail completely to repond to my points, *then* I lob insults.

La Lucha Continua


PS: When ck and Kenny admit (haha) to being sexist misogynists it lets me know that they don't understand what those terms mean. It's kind of like being racist klan members. Get it? One term is an essential element of the other... you can't be a non-sexist misogynist any more than you can be a non-racist klan member.
 

For Gail...

>to condemn a man and his business

It's more than a bit hyperbolic to claim that the initial article "condemned" any person or business. The suggestion was that people who agreed with the author should call the owner and tell him that they were offended by such materials and that they would discontinue patronage of the establishment if those materials continued to be displayed. Imagine the result if the "official" response had been something along the lines of "Hmm, I hadn't thought of it that way, but since you seem so concerned about it, I'll look into putting something else in its place." The next post on this list probably would have then extolled the virtues of SB mgmt and how reponsive and sensitive they were to these concerns. But none of that happened, did it?


>Would you discard a friend or picket his
>house because you disapproved the art
>displayed in the home?

If I was offended by the art, I would talk to him about it, ask him why he had it, what he saw in it, etc... Maybe he would explain it, teach me something about it I hadn't recognized. Or maybe I would learn something unpleasant about my friend. Depending on the issue, it might be the type of thing that would cause me to question how well I really knew this person and how much I really wanted to hang out with them.


>thereby reducing my husband to
>something less than he actually is.

I'd like to offer my personal apologies that the author, prior to publishing this viscious diatribe, failed to extensively interview your husband in order to portray his humanity in a full and compelling manner. It's truly shameful, isn't it? Oh, wait. The article is about some artwork in the women's bathroom at the business your husband runs. It's not about HIM.


>We have had real life "crap" and vomit
>and all manner of vile excretous matter
>smeared on the walls.

Wow! At a brewery? I'm shocked! I'm sure you never imagined that there might be some "accidents" involving shit and vomit in the restroom of an establishment where the central theme is the consumption of alcohol.

And, of course, what this has to do with the pin-ups on the wall is beyond me. Are you hoping we'll give up our simple request out of sheer pity for your janitorial hardships?


>female manager had made
>the design decisions

Personally, I don't really care about the manager's gender or age. Nor do I care that the manager made the decisions and Charlie just went along with it. It doesn't matter. And I don't think that either of them are bad/ignorant/sexist for putting up the images.

The issue is that some people find the images offensive... some people who have been, and could continue to be, patrons of your establishment. As such, it behooves you to seriously consider the request that the images be replaced. Really, put up _different_ pin-ups! They can all be pin-ups by Zoe Mozert. I don't care.


>How about you leave Charlie... alone
>and find us a new president

Is this really causing him mental anguish? Is it such an outrageous thing to suggest that the pictures might be due for a change up?
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

The defensive attitude of posters in behalf of the demeaning and sexist pictures is wierd.

Why would women defend the right to be ridiculed in poster "art"? Why do they slavishly defend those who insult them?

And all you manly men who post comments bashing feminists. What do you have against feminism? Feminism is advocating for equal legal, social, economic and civil rights for women.

(Look up "feminsm" in the dictionary).

If you are against womens equal rights than you are for dominating women. Also, how come none of you manly men don't post your real name and thus have the guts to own your your namecalling, spittle spewing, woman hating rants?

The real reason for the so called male controlled "pro-life"
movement (bowel movenent) is the fact that if every woman on earth had access to abortion and birth control, the number of women hating sexists would diminish-perhaps to extinction.

What would the world be like if male fetuses were aborted enmasse like female fetuses are in China India and other pro male nations?

For one, the male surplus (Google "surplus males"" would be reduced and there would be millions less guys who dress alike, start wars, kill each other and rape women.

Under global patriarchy, women's job is to manufacture men. Women are regarded as expendable incubators which is why mens last names are passed on (to achieve a kind of immortality) while women surrender their last names upon marriage (title change from father to husband)

Men's cultural universal virulent hatred of women is exposed in these hateful rants and childish attempts at ridicule.

As to being a "man hater" I dont hate the tiny minority of men who are evolved and are not neanderthals. The overwhelming majority of men are. The ones who rape and kill women deserve to be hated and viewed as vermin.
 

Always looking for the offensive...

WOW. Do you people always look for the negative in every aspect of your life? Are you one of those "my glass is always half-empty" people?
Do you search out to find something to offend you?
Why can't you see the fun and humor in the bathroom? I mean really, it's a very cool, fun bathroom. It's bright pink with black and white zebra print borders after all. That's right folks, your are talking to the creator of all this maddess!!! And guess what...i LOVE the bathroom. I think it's the neatest bathroom ever! It's supposed to have a 50's beauty lounge feel to it. It's SUPPOSED to be fun.
I wondered if and when i would recieve a complaint about it.I figured here in Santa Cruz, it would piss someone off, because everything always pisses someone off. To be honest, these are the 1st complaints EVER. In fact, i've gotten tons of positive responses for it from patrons....such as "wow, i love what you did to the bathroom" or " great bathroom!"
SO, i don't think it's fair for you to assume that most women/people feel the way you do, becuase obviously they don't. Besides, what you are really arguing here is taste and opinion, and the Supreme Court has already established that it is immpossibe to argue "taste" and "opinion."
K- as for your conversation with charlie. He explained to you the bathroom was created by women...your next response to him was something of "well, they are to young and stupid to know what they are doing." Not your exact words, but along those lines. Well, guess what, I'm just shy of 30 years old and I have a University Degree in Forensics. Not so young and stupid am I??
I also noticed you failed to mention and acknowledge our tampon dispenser (how could you miss it, it's pink!) with a huge sign on the front of it stating 20% of the tampon proceeds go to women with breast cancer and no insurance...what an unfeminist thing for us to do.
Look, this bathroom wasn't intended to offend anyone. It was meant to be fun, because the Brewery is a fun place to go. I've learned in life you can't please everyone. I'm truly sorry to lose your buisness over something as novel as bathroom decorations. However, i put a lot of time and effort into that bathroom, and i like it, so do others, and it's staying.
But if that's the way you feel, i understand. I've stopped patroning places over things that bothered me (it was usually over bad service or bad food...but to each their own.)
If you change your minds, come in and i'll buy you a beer. We just named one in your honor.. The Pin-up Amber.
 

find me some, and i'll put 'em up

By the way, as for putting up "diffent pin-up Girls"...you find them for me, and i'll consider putting them up. I searched high and low to find pin-up postcards, hours on the internet. Tons of posters, tons of books, tons of everything else, but just not a large selection of postcards. So really, that's the only reason i went with those pin-ups in the first place...they were the only damn ones i could find!
 

Skiing down the slippery slope

OK Elaine,

You must have taken that bumpersticker seriously. The one that says:

Teenagers -- Leave home now while you still know everything.

Critical Thinking
Part 2 - Slippery Slope

Wherein the person implies that if you believe such and such it will lead to thus and so and eventually it will lead to "the end of the world as we know it".

This is known as the slippery slope argument. A classic example of this is the "Domino Theory" that was used to justify the War in Vietnam. But you were still floating around in the ethers back then waiting for a suitable body to exploit. : )

If some of us are against you censoring someone's art then we are anti-feminist and women haters. Which means we are Pro-Lifers who only see women as baby factories for boys. That's very slippery. It's not me.

Not everything is black and white. I might be a feminist but not agree with your interpretation of what that means. You are one of the many possible kinds of feminists. You just happen to be very young and narrow-minded. You will grow out of it. Sorry if I sound patronizing, but I was where you are 35 years ago.

Did your Daddy beat you or molest you or abuse you? Did he take away the Visa card he gave you? Why are you so hateful of men? It's the powerful elite that run the world. 95% of men don't qualify as the elites. The elite have used some easily duped media types to turn class war into gender war. It takes the heat off them. That's my theory. Is there evidence support it? What do you think?

You say there are only a small number of men who are enlightened. You hate the rest. But you aren't sexist? What? Only men can be sexist? And I suppose only whites can be racist? I'm glad you've got it all figured out at such a young age.

In all seriousness. Your anger is going to hurt you. Please talk to someone who will listen and help you work through it. If you don't, it will eat you up inside. I know this from my own experience. If you don't believe me ask a wise feminist woman that you trust. One that has channeled her anger into something productive. If you hold on to your hatred it will come back at you in strange ways. Get rid of it. Channel it into something creative or helpful.
 

Why we post anonymously

Why do you want to know my identity? I don't care who you are or where you are from. I'm just here defending my version of what is real. It doesn't matter who I am or where I live.

A person never knows who is out there reading this and what kind of reaction they will have to a person's post. Do I really need to explain that there are some really dangerous people out there. I don't want to be "punished" by some sicko for expressing an opinion.

Let's keep our "activism" confined to words and not threats or harassment.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Dear God/Allah/El/Mary/Manitou/Gaia/Vishnu!
You all have the right to your opinion. People who don't like the art, stop patronizing the SB! This is your right and perogitive. You can interpret the art/drivel as you see fit and it is your right to not like it and interpret it in any way you see fit. Please realize the world will not always conform to your utopian ideals or your standards of what "art" is. Do not make the fatal mistake of expecting others to see the world as you do or to condemn a person as unjust for holding different standards in this regard. Misplaced outrage is not only dangerous as it obscurs real problems in society, but also serves to limit objective discourse and to cloud the real issues; in this case, violence to and the dangerous world it is for women.
Is this art sexual? Yes. Let us not forget that every psycology book written in the last 150 years shows that it is not sexual permissiveness that leads to sexual deviance (rape, battered women, serial killers, etc.), but sexual repression. One need merely examine those current societies where such imagry is taboo or even outlawed and contrast their treatment of women with our own (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Sudan, etc.). Do we have a long way to go with regards to better treatment of women? Yes again. But don't call the rose what it ain't.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I think this dsicussion has to be taken in the broder context of the morality of pornography, as thats what were effectively looking at... 50s soft core porn

That is certainly a debated topic, but there are quite a few thoughtful, liberal, intelligent and wel leducated feminists who argue that pornography is in fact a boon to the women's movement.

Historically in christian societies, sex has been labled as bad or sinful, and women being the focal point of 80% to 90% of men's sexual feelings, have gotten thus labeld as equivalently bad/sinful. The only ones who escape this are women who live up to totally unreasonable and inhuman levels of asexuality (the cult of the virigin.)

The argument for pornogrpahy is that pornography is one form of open and honest dialogue abotu sexuality and in a still primarily male structured society ANYTHING that brings sexual feelinsg out of the closet and into the light is nothing but good for the women's movement.

I believe it was Kinsey who reported that the single msot common form of male or female fantasies were bondage fantasies (both binding and being bound for both sexes). Given that power-play seems to be inhrently tied to sexuality isnt it better to openly disucss such things and how they fit into our goals of being good and equitable human beings?

Frankly, IMHO, the strident preachign of both feminists against pornigraphy and the religous reactionaries against pornography both come from a common root cause-- fear of sexuality. Theirs and others'.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

By the way....

For anyone interested in reading some of the serious pro-pornography femenist essays, this is a great booklet:

bookstore.autonomedia.org/index.php
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

This position paper from the FFE is also well worth reading.

www.ffeusa.org/html/statements/statements_pornography.html

Then look at the board of directors and consultants of the FFE. You might be surprised at who you find...
 

A few thought about "Victim Feminism"

First of all let me assure you that there is nothing wrong with American women. There is something very wrong, though, with American feminism "group-think", notably "victim feminism" (Oh, come on, is there *really* any other kind of influential feminism nowadays?) Which strikes me as very, very odd. Blame it on my European identity, cultural and ethnic, but the increasingly virulent rethoric of victim feminism makes absolutely no sense to me. It takes women who are born into one of the richest societies in the civilised world and clothes them in the garments of a Third World-esque "oppression". The irony is, of course, that most of these women have not met with much oppression during their lives and that they have a world of opportunities open to them in a way undreamt of by their ancestors, both female and male.

Not that I intend to deny that the odd male chauvinist still exists, but to claim that the way to eliminate anti-woman attitudes is by encouraging anti-male attitudes is unacceptable in my book. And for anyone with more than a nodding acquaintace with morals and ethics, it is not only unacceptable, it is positively totalitarian. Another thing that I find intriguing (and I say intriguing to avoid the over-emotional conotations of "downright angry") is this mindless connection of victimhood with power. I look at the real victims: at the Third World children who die of hunger in countries brimming with natural riches, at refugees that wait and wait for a peace that will never come, and wonder where does all this "patriarchal oppression" rethoric comes from. I have a little game to pose to those women who are bent on blaming men for their every personal shortcoming. And I have a little game to pose to those men whose feelings of self-loathing are so intense that they have to rationalise them into that tiresome "I am oppressive by nature, deserving of contempt, blah, blah, blah" mantra: --> how about growing up into a full human being for a while? How about starting to assume *full responsibility* for your actions once in a while?

Oh, I can sympathise with these trends. I can sympathise completely. It is easier to say "We live in a society that oppresses women" than to say "If I do not develop my full potential it is my fault". It is easier to say "I'm not being promoted because I am a woman" than to say "I'm not being promoted because I'm not qualified enough". It's easier to say "I'm not violent, I'm a victim of my heredity or experiences" than to assume responsibilty for your bad actions and accept the just punishment. But ultimately, this is counter-producive. It is only a form of neo-paternalism.

We need to be able to see through all that screechy rethoric and poke at the deep truths beneath it. We know that although there are certainly individual men and women who are victims of one thing or the other, neither women nor men are "victims" or "oppressed" or anything else. Real feminism was always about equality, about fairness for *all*, women and men, whites and non-whites, etc. It was never about moral superiority or claiming a privileged victim status. It was about realising how traditional sex-roles hurt both women and men, by imposing rigid behaviour rules and forcing them to follow expectations no one could keep. Where have those ideas gone? We live in a world of professional worriers. A bizarre world where people would rather distort the truth than to sigh in relief with the fact that, say, spouse battering rather than being a epidemic, constitutes unnaceptable and devious behaviour.

It takes bravery to promote gender equality, responsibility, and respect although I think there is a greater understanding of it here in Europe. It's unfortunate that we still have to contend with the screechy no-brainers of (mostly) "gender feminists" whose hate-rhetoric is protected by the very right to free speech they seek to abolish, simply for suggesting that men and women should work together to achieve common goals and that we should stop thinking about "women" and "men" and start thinking about "human beings".

Of course such ideas, given the present thwarted state of gender politics, usually come across as revolutionary. To me though, a woman fed on a diet of real equality and critical thinking, to whom humanity consists in assuming your faults along with your virtues and accepting the consequences of your deeds, these ideas come across as solid, commonsensical sanity.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

In response to Gail Meehan:

This article does not condemn Charlie Meehan or anyone else involved in the Seabright Brewery. Jn fact, it even compliments the brewery in the initial paragraph. It does, however, call into question his judgement about putting up images that demean females.

Did you know that I can actually edit my article? I would have been willing to update this article if there was a "new" ending, i.e. there was a willingness of Charlie Meehan to change to the images, etc. That is one of the great things about the open publishing style of indymedia. Also, if I were a restaurant owner, I think I would have embraced this opporturnity for free publicity and ran with it... He could have made a public statement here in this forum!

I stand by this article and the way I have written it. I have called attention to "art" (in the broad sense that the Spiderman comics are "art", I guess) that depicts the victimization of women. Meehan is a restaurant owner and local businessman, and is therefore a public figure. I did not say he was he was mean, -------, ------, unlike the way you have started to name call. He is just as able to make a public comment via this forum as is anyone else. Why doesn't he respond?

As for the comments that he gave to a poster who was in general agreement with this article, I am disappointed in his response. If a segment of your customers are offended by your art, it seems to me you have two options. You can either dig in your heels, leave up the art and then face what is coming to you -- a segment of the population who feels that these images are discriminatory and hateful. Or, you can take down these images, put up a few of millions that are NOT demeaning to women (and/or other people) and retain those customers. The choice to me would be very clear. Good business practice is not rocket science.
 

Still looking for a man to blame

Dear Hiraeth,

Why are you trying to engage Charlie when he had no say in what was chosen for the display in the women's bathroom? It was made clear days ago that the art was chosen and put up by JD, a female bar manager. Do want Charlie to dictate to her what art should be displayed in the women's bathroom? Wouldn't that be sexist, male dominant and oppressive to women?

JD has explained her reasons for choosing the art. She has challenged you to come up with pin-up art appropriate to her design intentions. Aren't you willing to contribute a little work or are you just about complaining?

As to the segment of people who are offended by the displayed art: I'm so sorry you can't understand anything outside your narrow minded interpretation of what this art means.

It's obvious to me that you intended to set a trap to catch a "male chauvinist" and you came up with a female illustrator and a female bar manager. You are still going with "the man is the problem" but it's not working. The man wasn't involved.

Contribute to the solution or shut up!
 

Pin-Ups Can Be Beautiful

JD wrote:
>By the way, as for putting up "diffent
>pin-up Girls"...you find them for me, and
>i'll consider putting them up. I searched
>high and low to find pin-up postcards,
>hours on the internet. Tons of posters,
>tons of books, tons of everything else,
>but just not a large selection of postcards.
>So really, that's the only reason i went with >those pin-ups in the first place...they were
>the only damn ones i could find!

Hey JD,

I'll go along with that. Really, I don't think you had "bad" intentions or anything else in putting up the particular pin-ups. But if you look at those particular pieces and compare them to other pin-ups, even to other Mozert pieces, do you see a difference in how the subjects are portrayed... regardless of whether or not you feel that portrayal to be problematic?

As for alternative pin-ups, the links below might be interesting and are of sufficient pixel dimensions that they could be printed to roughly the size of a postcard (at appx 150dpi, which is adequate):
www.swingandcountry.com/images/Pin-Ups/q-ra-005.jpg

www.swingandcountry.com/images/Pin-Ups/p-rarmstrong_1231a.jpg

www.paintedanvil.com/rbmcg/mcginnis22.jpg

www.paintedanvil.com/rbmcg/mcginnis40.jpg

www.paintedanvil.com/rbmcg/mcginnis132.jpg

Or just go to www.paintedanvil.com and look around, generally. There is some classic stuff there.
 

Now advocating the stealing of art!

Under the "fair use" guidelines for copyrighted material the originating artist is supposed to be compensated for her/his work. Copying things from the internet and printing them is ILLEGAL. The Seabright women's bathroom is a public place. They could be sued for ripping off copyrighted images. Duh! There are some exceptions to the fair use law; for example non-profit and educational use.

JD spent real money to buy the postcards she displayed -- she didn't rip off images from the internet.

I guess you are too lazy to do any real work or spend any money in trying to change the artwork. The images you suggested don't go along with the stated theme anyway.

50's Beauty Shop

Go back to art school or do some studing on your own. Kids!


This is the disclaimer from www.paintedanvil.com

All artwork on this site is copyrighted by their respective owners. This is a non-profit site for entertainment purposes only. If for any reason any of the owners of the artwork feel they would prefer not to have their work displayed at this site,

Please contact me via e-mail and I will comply immediately.

harry (at) paintedanvil.com
Thank you



In other words the website owner is saying if you catch me red handed I will remove the images that I stole from you and that you own. NICE one harry!

You reveal too much about yourself by suggesting:
www.paintedanvil.com/rbmcg/mcginnis40.jpg

Or are you just being playful? What a sense of humor you have developed! Are we having fun yet?
 

Victimist-Feminism robs you of your power

Let's just drop the "Feminism" part of the title because these women aren't real Feminists. They are Victimists. If they were strong caring women they would have tried to find out the facts before using some local internet resource as a forum for their Victimist political action. Publish first, find out the facts later. Don't tell me you are Journalism majors too!
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I find it strange that people could spend so much energy on unimportant issues. The SB is without a doubt one of the best places to go in SC.

Just a footnote. Since few of you have a sense
of history, those pinups held a purpose.They reminded all those farmboys (like my father) for which they were fighting.
Interesting, that some of you politically correct
folks have no trouble using bad language.
BTW , if you don't like what is on T.V. change the channel.

Bill Lucas
 

Be Careful Who You Flirt With!

Thanks for all of the great (dis)information I've been supplied with in this comment section, c!

Feminism is really just "victimism".... Feminists don't like sex. Feminists hate men. All feminsts are unhappy lesbians. People who speak up about what is wrong in their environment are whiners with a victim mentality.

Gee, if I didn't always see the glass as being half full (of SB beer, of course!), I would almost think that someone was trying to spam this article with garbage comments in order to detract from the fact that they can't make a cogent argument directly addressing the issue presented in the article.

P.S. -- I don't want to be a bummer, but I heard that those feminists hide in all sorts of bodies and faces. If you're not careful, the next cutie you start buying brews for might roll out her armpit hair collection right at the bar!! Eeeewwww ....REALITY!!! It IS Santa Cruz, after all!
 

Well, let's see. What is the story here?

After weeks, if not months of public display, a solitary "feminist" woman found 4 or 5 pieces of art (out of over 20 or more) in the women's bathroom that didn't meet her expectations of "Politically Correct Feminist" art. She took some photographs of this art and "Published" it to a local "alternative" internet news service. She didn't try to contact the "offending party" until after she attacked the establishment using this public internet forum. She said the owner was promoting sexist, racist and violent images. (Lots of incorrect assumptions were made.)

The reporter passed on her observance of the "offensive art" to her friends so that they could attack the proprietor of the establishment before they tried to find out who did it and why the art was posted. The art didn't pass their "feminist polititally correct standards" so they went after the owner of the establishment. Nevermind the context of the art or why this particular art of was chosen. It offended them and they are the arbitartors of what is permitted and what is forbidden.

After all censorship is OK when it is done in the name of defending the "oppressed" and censorship is also OK if you don't understand the context of the artwork like these politically motivated ignorant attackers. Heaven forbid that you should have to have an understanding of an era that you didn't grow up in. That's too much like thinking or hard work. Why should I have to give a damn about the past or what those people went through back in the "old days". Who does nowadays? Only crazy people. I don't have time for that.

My political philosphy is the only correct one and I wish all those other people would wise up. They are so stupid. Don't they read the same political dogma as me? If they don't they must be idiots because I know that my dogma is better than any one elses.

I know deep in my heart that some horrible man made this whole thing happen. I hope he gets his just deserts and some strong Victimist steps on his marbles. Then I'll feel better. If I keep explaining how offended I am then everyone will rally around me because I'M BEING OPPRESSED.

You know what? I don't even care what anyone else thinks about this art. I'm the OPPRESSED and I have the POWER. If you don't think this art is sexist, and demeaning then YOU JUST DON'T GET IT! I've told you what it means so PAY ATTENTION! My beliefs are the only ones that count.

I'm sorry I got so carried away but I hate it when people disagree with me. You'd think that this was a free country or something. Sheesh!
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Why waste our time with such trivial crap when real sexism exists.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Right your soooo fucking Opressed.
Some of you women set us all back 150yrs by so easily claiming the victim role, stand up and quit your whining.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Some 'feminists' seem like they wont be satisfied till all women are Victims. Get up off your ass and quit whining.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

First of all, I would like to thank you for speaking for me. I OBVIOUSLY couldn't fathom, on my own, that these are silly postcards that poke fun at the stereotypes women were held to IN THE PAST. I am just a woman, after all....so I would like to say thankyou....THANKYOU from the bottom of my little ol' heart for telling me that I'm offended. I thought I had a brain of my own and that these postcards were harmless. I never knew I was trapped....."unable to escape" these horrific images. Thank goodness you're here to tell me how I should have responded. I'll be more careful next time. And the next time I see a goose, I'll dial 911 and tell them that a man is following me, making obscene honking noises, which "clearly" represent the mating call of all human males. It's so obvious!
...and here I was....thinking for myself. What a fool I've been. Pity.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I didn't think bathroom pictures was such an important topic until i came across this posting and the gross, insulting, and yes, sexist, comments. You seeme to have hit a nerve. NOw i admit, i have never been to this bar, so i don't know that it's heaven on earth. I do know that soemone made some interesting criticisms of some artwork in s bathroom there. I also know that you mostly men, who presumably don't use the women's bathroom, got totally bent out of shape, and used every anti-feminist stereotypes and insults including som4 that Rush Limbaugh never heard of to degrade the maker of the criicism and her/his supporters. Like i said you hit a god-damn nerve.

It seems that war even the "Great War" brings out the worst in people. And accordignto one poster, it seems that politics of the war itself, against Hitler and Japanese invasion, couldn't be enough incentive for Johnny to ifght it, it needs a handful of meek women at home to show Johnny what he's missing.
The cry of political correctness is usually the cry of those who want to keep women/blacks etc. etc. in their place. With mysogyny comign coming otu right and right, some of these people might even ban women from going to bars unless they were there to suck someone's dick. With all the insults on Lesbians, you'd think this was Omaha and not Santa Cruz.

An explanation of sorts: I'm a guy from Berkeley, who doesn't even like Santa Cruz that much, I, as i said earlier, have never been to this bar. I don't know anybody in question. I just stumbled to this thrad and read some of the most vile sexist woman-hating ideas i've read in a long time. I thought i would give my two cents to this thread.
And, Gentleman, if its such an unimportant issue, why are you wassting so much time and bandwidth on reponding to it.
 

Start by talking to the owner calmly

I haven't had time to read through all the comments but here's a tip I learned from a co-worker: **Start by talking calmly to the person who can do something about it.** Maybe you can explain why you (and others) are offended by some of the cards, and the owner could replace them with more of the spoof cards. I used to love to rant and rave but I think speaking calmly can garner more results. Peace.
 

Why are men concerned about this issue?

It's the women's bathroom. Why should we care?

Because it's about censorship. That's why. It doesn't matter if we never see the art. I believe this attempt to censor the art in the women's bathroom is motivated by a narrow-minded political action group. I don't care if it's the Right to Lifers, the Victimist Feminists, the Evangelical Christians, or the KKK. I don't think any of these or any other politically motivated groups have a right to tell a business what should be displayed on the bathroom walls of either bathroom. If you want to call me sexist, racist, looney, pagan, stupid or misogynist -- go ahead. I know who I am. You can't define me. You can't offend me. Because I *choose* to not be offended by your name calling. It bounces off. I'm not a victim.

If you don't like what is on the walls you can spend your money anywhere you want. No one is forcing you to come to the Brewery. Tell all your friends. Maybe some of them believe the same thing as you do. They also have free choice. Maybe some of them don't agree with you. Fine. You don't like the art? Stay away! Others will come in support of our (my) views.

You launched a blindsided attack on some good friends of mine. I don't think it was justified. I think your interpretation of the art is politically motivated from a narrow-minded perspective. (see above reference to what I might consider "narrow-minded groups"). I don't think you represent mainstream feminism. But that doesn't matter either. It's just my OPINION. I have a right to disagree with your politics. I don't agree with your interpretation of the art. That doesn't mean I'm anti-Feminist. You just THINK it does. Fine. You have a right to your opinion.

We both have a right to our different opinions. No one has a right to inflict their opinion on the other person. You're not automatically right just because you are a member of an "oppressed" group; that doesn't give you special status in defining what art means or what other people have a right to say or display. The right wing has been sucessful in defining democrats as "liberals" -- they have almost made it into a dirty word. Similarly, your attempt to label this art as "degrading ... powerful statements about sexual violence against women" is a total misrepresentation of what this art really is TO ME and to the woman who posted it and I hate to be the one to break it to you -- the vast majority of the population. I get that you are offended. That doesn't mean you get to choose the art. Maybe you should open your own business. Then you might get an understanding that YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERYBODY!

Some people have called you names. You have used defamatory language too. It looks pretty even to me, but then I'm prejudiced. Look at the last couple of paragraphs of Hireath's "article". She doesn't exactly tread lightly. She clearly attacks the owner of the Brewery and these "hateful illustrations". You accuse him of promoting "sexual violence against women." I've known the man for over 20 years. Obviously you don't know a thing about him. You heckle him when he encourages and empowers his employees to express their own artistic style with his business space and his money. What do you really know?

So I should just let someone smear a great friend of mine in a "public forum" and stand back and watch? Not gonna happen. I have no desire to be a victim or of letting anyone blindside my friends. I would expect you to do the same for your friends.

You have a right to any kind of feminist politics that you wish to explore. You don't have a right to tell someone how to run their business. You have a right to take your money anywhere you like. You don't have a right to decide what is good art and what is bad art.

Don't expect to be able to attack someone without their friends coming to their support. You misjudged this "political action project" from the very start. I think you assumed that bad people had to be behind this display of so called "degrading art" -- you were very wrong about that. I know these people. I am proud to call them my friends.

Tinker Thinker
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

My opinion is that the images are sexist and do serve to objectify women. The owner of the Brewery has the right to continue posting the images but does so at the risk of alienating his customers. I spent $162 plus tip at the Brewery two weeks ago with my kids and family friends but I will refrain from patronizing this business until my entire community can feel respected here. The Brewery can dig its objectification art all it wants but this has STILL proven itself to be a controversial business decision which will carry consequences. I have never entered that bathroom before but my six year old daughter has. Out of respect for my daughter, her mother, and the individual who posted this concern I will not be back to the brewery until this matter has been addressed.

Again, this is merely my opinion but would like to offer a bit of advice to my male peers on this comment section. We live in a sexist culture with many male privelages. As men, the first step in changing our sexist behaviors is to become aware of them. I suggest that in the future when someone tells us our behavior is sexist we should avoid responding defensively and offer to consider our behavior. Eliminating sexism in our behaviors is not something we can do without a conscious attempt to become aware and make changes.

We are all now aware that some people find this art to be sexist. I will join these people in eating elsewhere until the Brewery makes amends.
 

Seabright Brewery employees, know your rights!

Nobody should be harassed at work or suffer in a hostile work environment. Judging by the grossly sexist and hostile remarks here in the comment section, presumbably from Seabright Brewery employees, it wouldn't be surprising if sexual harassment is an issue at Seabright Brewery.

Read more to find out more about sexual harassment.

What Is Sexual Harassment?

Any of the following unwanted behavior may constitute sexual harassment:

leering
wolf whistles
discussion of one's partner's sexual inadequacies
sexual innuendo
comments about women's bodies
'accidentally' brushing sexual parts of the body
lewd & threatening letters
tales of sexual exploitation
graphic descriptions of pornography
pressure for dates
sexually explicit gestures
unwelcome touching and hugging
sexual sneak attacks, (e.g., grabbing breasts or buttocks )
sabotaging women's work
sexist and insulting graffiti
demanding, "Hey, baby, give me a smile"
inappropriate invitations (e.g., hot tub)
sexist jokes and cartoons
hostile put-downs of women
exaggerated, mocking 'courtesy'
public humiliation
obscene phone calls
displaying pornography in the workplace
insisting that workers wear revealing clothes
inappropriate gifts (ex. lingerie)
hooting, sucking, lip-smacking, & animal noises
pressing or rubbing up against the victim
sexual assault
soliciting sexual services
stalking
leaning over , invading a person's space
indecent exposure

Compiled by Martha Langelan in Back Off! How To Confront And Stop Sexual Harassement


Stop Sexual Harassment and Harassers

Sexual Harassment and Workplace Issues

Sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination when it would not have occurred but for the person's gender. It is covered under Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act . Some of the most recognized forms of sexual harassment are:
Direct sexual advances or propositions, including higher-ranked employees asking for sexual favors.
Intimidating or excluding women employees to jeopardize their employment status.
Creating a hostile workplace for women by using sexist jokes, remarks, or pinning up sexually explicit or pornographic photos.

Sexual harassment is not mutual and is unwelcome. It is rude, demeaning behavior and is usually about the abuse of power. In fact, sexual harassment psychologically hurts the women involved and the work atmosphere. According to the National Council for Research on Women, women are 9 times more likely than men to quit their jobs, 5 times more likely to transfer, and 3 times more likely to lose jobs because of harassment (The Webb Report, June 1994). There may be serious economic consequences as a result of sexual harassment. A woman's job status may be jeopardized and and she may lose wages if she is fired or takes extended leave to avoid the harasser.

The 1994 Merit Systems Protection Board Study of sexual harassment noted that women in in traditionally male-dominated occupations such as construction, policing, the military are more likely to be harassed. Additionally, other studies have found that harassment is more commonly found in female-dominated workplaces where majority of women earn low wages and the management is predominantly male ( see Frank E. Saal, "Men's Perceptions of Women's Interpersonal Behaviors and Sexual Harassment" in Sexual Harassment in the Workplace: Perspectives, Frontiers and Response Strategies. Sage Publications: Thousand Oaks, CA, 1996.)

A victim of sexual harassment may file legal claim even if s/he has tolerated the behavior for fear of retaliation or losing their job.

The law remains unclear whether a woman "who is not herself the object of sexual harassment might still have a hostile environment claim." (Women and Sexual Harassment: A Practical Guide to the Legal Protections of Title VII and the Hostile Environment Claim by Anja Angelica Chan, JD, [Harrington Park Press: New York, 1994]).

Offensive and demeaning behavior does not have to be tangibly detrimental (ex. wage loss, passed promotion) to the job to be considered sexual harassment.

Preventing Sexual Harassment in the Workplace

Employer Liability

Employers are responsible for the conduct of supervisors and managers. Employers also have a responsibility to protect their employees from harassment by non-employees (e.g., customers, vendors, suppliers, etc). Managers are liable for sexual harassment between co-workers if they knew or should have known about it and took no steps to stop it. The existence of a company grievance procedure alone does not automatically insulate employers from liability. Employers should also take responsibility to take action against sexual harassment once they are aware it is occurring.

An effective sexual harassment policy stresses the illegality of sexual harassment and delineates a clear and appropriate complaint process while ensuring the confidentiality for the victim . Additionally, such a policy encourages witnesses or victims to report the behavior immediately and mentions that retaliation against persons reporting harassment is illegal and will not be tolerated.

Once finalized, an organization's sexual harassment policy should be distributed to all employees and a copy posted in an accessible and prominent location. Employers should also consider scheduling seminars or workshops on sexual harassment to promote company-wide knowledge of the policy.

Many states have drafted state prevention model policies for employer use. Other employer resources concerning may be obtained from federal employment discrimination enforcement agencies such as the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) and state fair employment agencies, or national organizations combatting sexual harassment, such as Legal Momentum, which offers an "Employer Legal Resource Kit".

Benefits of Sexual Harassment Policies

Ignoring problems of sexual harassment can cost the average company up to $6.7 million a year in low productivity, low morale, and employee turnover and absenteeism, not including litigation or other legal costs. Following clear and proactive formal policies against sexual harassment in the workplace is one way to prevent lawsuits and drops in productivity and efficiency. ("Sexual Harassment in the Fortune 500", Working Woman, Dec. 19, 1988).

Stopping Sexual Harassment

If possible, and if the harassment is not too severe or violent, directly confronting the harasser may be useful. Also, although having protested is not necessary for a claim, it would strongly strengthen a claim.

In Back Off! How To Confront and Stop Sexual Harassment and Harassers, Martha Langelan recommends taking these steps:.

*Do the unexpected: Name the behavior. Whatever he's just done, say it, and be specific.

*Hold the harasser accountable for his actions. Don't make excuses for him; don't pretend it didn't really happen. Take charge of the encounter and let people know what he did. Privacy protects harassers, but visibility undermines them.

*Make honest, direct statements. Speak the truth (no threats, no insults, no obscenities, no appeasing verbal fluff and padding).

*Be serious, straightforward, and blunt.

*Demand that the harassment stop.

*Make it clear that all women have the right to be free from sexual harassment. Objecting to harassment is a matter of principle.

*Stick to your own agenda. Don't respond to the harasser's excuses or diversionary tactics.

*His behavior is the issue. Say what you have to say, and repeat it if he persists.

*Reinforce your statements with strong, self-respecting body language: eye contact, head up, shoulders back, a strong, serious stance. Don't smile. Timid, submissive body language will undermine your message.

*Respond at the appropriate level. Use a combined verbal and physical response to physical harassment.

*End the interaction on your own terms, with a strong closing statement: "You heard me. Stop harassing women."

You may also file an internal complaint through the appropriate avenues offered by the organization's policy on sexual harassment if it has one.

If the victim is a union member, reporting the harassment to the union steward may garner support and secure a potential ally. According to the National Labor Relations Act, unions must represent and aid their members in stopping sexual harassment, a form of discrimination. There are strict limits on filing grievances. They must be filed with 6 months of the date of the incident you are complaining about. If the union is uncooperative, the victim may file a complaint (also within those 6 months) with the NLRB (National Labor Relations Board).

Documenting Harassment

Documenting the harassment is important for use as evidence in a case or complaint.

You should:

*Photograph or keep copies of any offensive material at the workplace.

*Keep a journal with detailed information on instances of sexual harassment. Note the dates, conversation, frequency of offensive encounters, etc.

*Tell other people, including personal friends and co-workers if possible.

*Obtain copies of your work records (including performance evaluations) and keep these copies at home

*Document amount of work given (shifts) before and after you make a complaint.

Legal Remedies

If you decide to file a complaint with an outside agency, it is advisable to consult an attorney, although you are not required to retain counsel in order to file. Attorney referrals can be obtained by contacting local (e.g women's centers, rape crisis centers) or national women's organizations, your union (if member), specialized employee interest groups, law schools, legal aid community services, state Fair Employment Practice (FEP) agencies, or state Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) offices. In addition, your friends and professional contacts may know suitable attorneys.
Interview all attorneys who may potentially represent you. At the very least, any attorney you choose must specialize or have experience in employment discrimination law. Ask the attorney if she/he has prior experience dealing with sexual harassment cases, and what the outcomes of those cases were. Pay attention to the attorney's demeanor and to your "gut" feeling about this person. Once you retain an attorney, pay attention to how she/he treats your case. Are your phone calls returned within a reasonable time frame? Does your attorney take your concerns into consideration as she/he develops your case? Like anyone else you may hire, you have the option of firing an attorney who does not adequately represent you.

For more information on dealing with attorneys see: "Lawyerland: The World of Attorneys" in The Frugal Shopper by Ralph Nader and Wesley J. Smith. (Washington, DC: Center for Responsive Law, 1992); "Legal" in Why Women Pay More: How to Avoid Marketplace Perils by Frances Cerra Whittelsey. (Center for Study of Responsive Law, Washington, DC, 1993) and "Lawyers and Legal Research" in Sexual Harassment on the Job by William Petrocelli and Barbara Kate Repa. (Nolo Press: Berkeley, CA, 1995).


Overview of Legal Options:

Remedies Under Civil Law

Filing your claim with the EEOC (under Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act).
You must file a claim with the EEOC within 180 days of the last incident of harassment to begin the process for obtaining relief under Title VII. An EEOC claim can be filed in a manner to protect the victim's identity. Title VII covers all public and private employers in the United States, as well as U.S Citizens working for a U.S. company based in a foreign country. Complaints can be filed through EEOC district offices are located across the United States. The Civil Rights Act covers only companies with 15 or more employees. State fair employment agencies (FEP) laws may be more generous and extend to smaller companies.

The EEOC conducts its own investigation of the company or organization. Through the investigation, the EEOC determines whether or not harassment occurred, whether harassment is provable in court, and whether other employees have suffered from sexual harassment as well. Upon finishing the investigation, the EEOC makes a determination. If the EEOC finds in the favor of the victim (agrees you were harassed), it can pursue (settle) the case for you (happens in less than 1% of cases filed) or issue you a 'right-to-sue' letter so you and your lawyer can file a lawsuit independently. If the investigation finds you were not harassed, you can appeal the EEOC's finding.

The EEOC investigation can be lengthy and take over a year. If you wish, you and your attorney can skip the EEOC investigation, but you must at least file a claim with the agency before you can obtain the right to sue letter that allows you to enter court.

Few sexual harassment cases get to federal court, and those that do can take years. Victims who win sexual harassment cases in federal court can receive the following remedies : attorneys fees; reinstatement of promotion; compensatory and punitive damages; pay for lost wages and benefits; injunctive relief (changes in workplace policy and practice to prevent future harassment). The amount of damages awarded depends on the size of the company.


Filing your claim under state Fair Employment Practice (FEP ) statutes

States statutes are modeled after Title VII. Most states have a Fair Employment Practice agency located in the state capital that is responsible for enforcing state statutes banning sex discrimination. Most states also have an investigative process which varies. Be aware that some states have weak FEP laws that provide for little or no remedy at all. Time limits for filing claims with FEP agencies range from 6 months to one year. Most FEP agencies do not protect the victim's identity.


Filing a common law tort suit allows victims to:
receive money for compensatory damages (personal injury, lost wages, or health care expenses), or money from punitive damages (money awarded to victim in order to punish company). Assault and battery or wrongful discharge cases can also file this suit. Confidentiality is not guaranteed, nor is the woman protected from company retaliation.
The EEOC and state fair employment practice agencies will first attempt to settle your case out of court.


Dual filing
Filing your case with more than one agency (both EEOC and state or local agency) is also an option. They sometimes work together or share information on cases. But the EEOC has a huge backlog and will often refer cases to local agencies or local FEP automatically.

Criminal Remedies
If the harassment crosses over into the criminal realm (e.g., sexual assault and rape), you should report the incident(s) to the police.

For more information, see:

www.joshuafriedmanesq.com/lawyer-attorney-1030728.html

www.discriminationattorney.com/hostile_env.shtml

www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-sex.html

www.eeoc.gov/charge/overview_charge_filing.html
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I'm amazed at the response of the manager/owner(?) of the SB! Shame on you Mr. Meehan. As a matter of fact, I'm amazed by the arrogant and defensive attitude I see in management everywhere! Perhaps it's the "Karl Rove-Halliburton School of Business" that is where this training comes from.
As someone who formerly worked in restaurant management, we used to have a saying...no, a basic philosophy, "the customer is always right." Of course the customer may not seem correct to the manager, but the philosophy was that you can't run a business by insulting and arguing with your customers. What kind of manager listens to a complaint and doesn't do something about it? I would have immediately taken the pictures down with an apology and a comped drink or meal....regardless of my own opinion....it's the essence of business. Is Mr. Meehan aware that his potential customer is everyone? I won't go back to a mismanaged restaurant just on principle! I'm so sick of the atmosphere and denial I see in the govt....why would I take my business to a place that is defensive and argumentative with their customers.
For the employee that wrote what a great and generous manager CM was....I simply say to you, "Ask for a raise....make sure you get paid what you are worth." Restaurant workers are typically the least taken care of or cared about, poverty level employees around. Something tells me that CM as owner/manager(?) makes a lot more than he is obviously worth; how about the waiters, bussers and cooks?...not to mention the dishwashers. I doubt any of them are paid what they are worth compared to the money they are making for the owners. The SB is not as great as many of you have written. When I've gone the service was weak, the menu weak, and the food mediocre....surely a sign of unhappy, poorly trained employees and general mismanagement. I won't waste my time rthere until they get a professional management.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

To:

Seabright Brewery employees, know your rights!
24 Aug 2005
by Sexual Harassment is Illegal

Please keep your description and rights of Sexual Harassment gender neutral.

some example from your post:

"sabotaging women's work"

"excluding women employees to jeopardize their employment status"

"*End the interaction on your own terms, with a strong closing statement: "You heard me. Stop harassing women.""

I personally have been involved with friends in "female" dominated fields that have the unfortunate pleasure of sexual harassment by females. On top of this there is a population that doesn't describe themselves in the male/female dichotomy. But besides that your post was very complete and useful.

On a different note... The Brewery is private property and a private business. If the employees do not believe in their option that they are being sexually harrassed... well then that is it... go else where or start your own Brewery.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I love it...you are saying -- it's OK that females are harassed because I once heard of some males being harassed.
You're right that harassment is not gender exclusive (hmmmm...I wonder which gender is more harassed, and which does the most harassing?)...you're wrong in condoning harassment....and it is outrageous that you would conclude your remarks with the private property and a private business bullshit. That if the employees do not agree to submit to harassment, they may "easily" go elsewhere or start their own Brewery. Perhaps we should stop the prosecution of Enron for wiping out their employees (as well as California)..."hey, private business...you can screw anyone you want!"
You are a seriously callous dinosaur with no compassion or moral sense. Get some moral values!!!
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Wow...

The last comment about being gender neutral was in order to be inclusive in the conversation about sexual harassment. Do to the fact that the description by "Sexual Harassment is Illegal" was over all very well laid out, I would have like to have seen it be completely inclusive. Since it is given that not all cases of sexual harasment are exclusively done on one gender by another gender. People of the same gender can sexually harass people of the same gender (Male on Male and female on female).

The second part which is independent of the first.

A private business on private land is displaying "Art" and this should be the context of the discussion.

The employees(workers) have a special relationship under the law that basically says that then need to be protected from abuse (physical/emotional). That is why we have min. wage, working hours, sexual harassment laws, etc. So if the worker feels harassed then we have a legal issue.

The person off the street has different relationship with the private business. You found something offensive in the private property that you were a guest on. Ok what happens now... well you make your complaint to the business, go else where. You then if you wish can make some noise get your friends not to go and tell people about your issue.

Santa cruz is a very creative place and many business display art everywhere (including bathrooms). So what we have here is to be accepting of each other's ideas of what "art" is. For example one can walk into a number of other business (coffee shops jump to my mind) and see paintings, photos, etc containing images that my offend some people and make them feel harassed. A naked body, upside down cross, use of animals as food, etc... we are all being free citizens, we should be able to give each other a respect of expression in for the sake of "art". In other words it is the private citizen (read here business owner) that can choose what they want as art on their own private property. Or would you rather see no art or some government(please note the hint of distrust) decide on what is ok and not.
 

Perspective

I've read a lot of talk about what is freedom of speech and how people need to be more tolerant.

What I would like to know is, does anyone care that I was sexually abused and when I see these images they take me back to the feeling of being abused and humiliated by my abuser? Charlie, to be blunt, it makes me feel even worse to see these images when I am vulnerable, literally with my pants down.

I've spent hard-earned cash to get therapy and I've done a lot of forgiving. I do not blame other people, only my perpetrator. I do not hate men. I look at them as other living beings that I am sharing the planet with who can suffer similarly. Still, I continue to have flashbacks and I know that I'm not the only one who goes through the aftermath of being abused.

Charlie, have you ever been molested, raped, fondled, grouped, stalked or physically hurt against your wishes by someone more powerful than you? Has it ever happened to any of your loved ones? Since you have not chosen to address the issue of these images -- not as pornography (that is not the problem) but as depictions of women being humiliated and/or abused -- , I assume that you feel like the humiliation of people is okay. If that is the case, why aren't there any cartoons of men being humiliated posted in your men's bathroom? Why aren't there depictions of you bending over to pick up the soap you dropped in an Army shower room? Or a "fun" picture of a scantily-dressed young man bent over in front of a priest? Why aren't those male-oriented "suggestive" images part of your humorous repretoire?

You might think that I'm biased because I have been abused, but I've seen way too much to believe that it is just coincidence or I've got some kind of bad luck.

Someone wrote that we need to get some perspective. Here's mine. A partial list of victims of abuse that I've known in my life.

1. Sexually Molested. Best friend, age eight years old, by an older (adult) relative of a neighbor. Prosecuted after he went on to molest two other girls.

2. Sexually abused as a child and raped as a teen. Close relative. This happened in the "good old days", just about when these postcards were made. Offender never prosecuted. No help for the victim.

3. Raped and physically abused by husband. Close relative. He moved her out to the country, practically kept her under lock and key. She suffered several broken bones and contracted stds from him. Never prosecuted.

3. Raped. Best Friend, age 16. Violently (premeditated) raped by the CAPTAIN of the baseball team. Recieved little help and support. He was not only never prosecuted, he remained the captain of the baseball team.

4. Sexually molested and physically abused. Best friend. Sexually abused by her cousin starting at age 8 for several years. No support from anyone dealing with this. Married at early age to escape. Husband was physically abusive. No one prosecuted. Abuser actually tried to contact and harass her again as an adult.

5. Violent physical assult and rape. Neighbor. I had to intervene on more than one occasion. Abuser used her position as a destitute immigrant with an expired green card to keep her with him.

6. Rape and fatal stabbing. Another neighbor. An incredibly loving and optimistic physically disabled woman was preyed upon, raped and then stabbed to death.

7. Sexually abused. Friend. Male who was molested as a child. Perpetrator never prosecuted.

8. Sexually abused. Friend. Molested as a child. Still dealing with the aftermath of the abuse.

9. Sexually molested by her adoptive father for years. Perpetrator never brought to justice.

10. Sexually abused through voyeurism. Friend. Own father secretly watched victim. Never persecuted.

11. Sexually abused by a grandfather for years. Friend. Didn't get any family support. Though she had near-genius abilities in mathematics and music, she is now serving in the military because that is the only job that would accept her because she is so messed up.

12. Spousal abuse. After trying for years to get out of her abusive relationship, she waited until the husband went out of town for a day and had to move out all of her stuff on a moment's notice. Perpetrator never prosecuted.

13. Violent sexual assault. Kidnapped and sexually molested, friend's brother. The perpretrator was never found, but recent evidence points to former school beat cop who was recently convicted of (you guessed it) molesting boys from the school.

14. Sexually abused. Boy (about age 10) exposed to nudity and forced to fondle a female babysitter. Went on to have many sexual partners at a young age and fathered a child at the age of 14. Perpetrator never prosecuted.

I could keep going on and on. When these things happen at first, you are totally shocked and outraged. After a while, you begin to realize that these aren't just some isolated incidents. They are happening all over and to a lot of people.

All of these incidents happened to middle to upper level income families. Many were from educated families. All of them happened in "safe" communites or the "good" part of a town. Of all of the people that these things happened to, most would be considered very good looking by most people. (It seems almost like they were hunted like animals.) I would also add that people rarely share this stuff with others. I've only shared my abuse with a handful of people, primarily because it's like experiencing the hurt all over again when someone treats you like you're being a big baby or that you should shut up about it when it is actually the most painful thing that has ever happened to you. That is the hardest. I actually don't talk about it to other people for that reason.

After reading some of the cruel things people have said about women here I felt that I needed to write something to help people understand that, even though they might have never experienced abuse, it is very, very real and prevalent.

If you truly care about other people but have a hard time believing that abuse is real, please ask a close female friend if they know anything about being abused. What they have to say might really open your eyes... you may even learn how your wife, mother, sister, etc. have been suffering in silence for years. Your listening and support might help them heal and perhaps even reclaim the wonderful enjoyment of sexuality that someone once tried to steal from them.
 

Lost in Translation

I am a little surprised that in as sophisticated a population as Santa Cruz the satirical element involved in placing 1940’s pinup art in the year 2005 woman’s room is completely lost on everyone who has posted to this list. sat•ire ( s²t“ºr?) n. 1. a. A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit. b. The branch of literature constituting such works. See note at caricature . 2. Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity. [Latin satira probably alteration( influenced by Greek satur satyr,) (and satyros burlesque of a mythical episode) of (lanx) satura fruit (plate) mixture, from feminine of satur sated, well-fitted; See s ³- in Indo-European Roots.] I suggest that you review the second (2.) description above and find that it defines the mission of these postcards brilliantly. When you notice that the parody images with overlaid text make up the majority of the postcards in the woman’s room you can’t help but appreciate the satirical statement. However given the poor behavior exhibited by so many in this forum even this additional perspective is unlikely to interrupt your diatribe or elevate the plane of cognition.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

There is so little understanding going on in this thread of posts. It is ripe with personal attacks and generalizations. So many people here need to take a deep breath, walk around a bit, and then with a clear mind post their thoughts. Too many of the posts here are written with the intent to inflame rather then discuss and understand.
 

still at it???

hula.jpg
wow, still at it, huh?? i haven't checked this site in awhile because, i've BEEN TOO BUSY DOING MORE IMPORTANT THINGS. do you see the picture i posted??? it's a postcard grouping called "hula Honeys" the postcards that are in question now, replaced a grouping of postcards that were from the hula honeys. can you believe those postcards were in the womans brewery bathroom for 10 YEARS and never recieved one complaint!!!
i find it hard to believe that people that are so offended by the postcards now (pin-up girls) thought that the one before were totally acceptable. WHY??? those hula girls, were actually a sterotypical hawaiin girl, brownish color, with coconut shells as a bra and a scantily clad straw thing as a skirt. really showing much more skin than any of the postcards that are in question now. why didn't we hear hoopla (no pun intended) about that??? i really don't understand. i mean really, there were up for 10 years, and nothing, not a word. Are girls in almost nude beach attire ok, but not a short skirt???
And speaking of beach attire.....hello, we live in a beach town. are you parents, who are so upset about your youngen' seening those pin-up girls,...don't you ever take your kids to the beach. the swimsuits out there these days, well, do i even have to say it??? they are much worse than anything on our bathroom walls. and those are real people, not art!!! and what about all our teen idols(i.e brittany spears, jessica simpson ect..), barely clothed on the cover of people, or any other magazine in the reach of a 5 year old!! i mean come on. this whole thing is ridiculous.
Biz Sense....you talk about unhappy employees. Do you have any idea what our employee turn over is??? it doesn't exist. there isn't one. because our employees love working here. it's the best place i've ever worked. and yes, we're very well taking care of. charlie and keith (the other owner) are the most amazing bosses i'ver ever worked for in my entire life. not only are they wonderful to their employees, they contribute a hell of alot to the community. do you ever wonder where all those donations come from??? if everyone worked for people like them, everyone would be happy were they worked. do i plan to work for the brewery for the rest of my life, no....i have other carrer plans ahead of me. and you know what i hate about that....not being able to work for charlie and keith any more. it pains me to envision not working for the brewery one day. i even tried to convince charlie to open up a buisness in my careeer path so i could work for him. he is like family to all employees...so don't you dare talk bad about him or try to tell me i am unhappy.
as for sexual harrasment in the work place...sorry to disapoint you all, it doesn't exist. in fact, the whole "the customer is always right" thing, what a horrible philosophy.
the customer is not always right, especially when they are sexually harrasing my staff. if someone is unhappy with food or service, yes i will do my best to accomidate them. but when they just grabbed the ass of my server....no they are not right. yes it does happen. doesn't that seem a little more real than a few postcards on a womens bathroom wall (that men shouldn't be looking at in the first place, we're not the saturn cafe, we don't have same sex bathrooms).
as for the molested comments....i'm sorry that happended to you, guess what...it happened to me too. but i'm not going to spend my life looking for things to upset me. i've moved on. i'm to strong of a person to let a few postcards upset me.
i'd also like to point out,that half of the postcards in the bathroom, one of the last ones posted in the beginning of this ridiculous artile, was done by Anne Taintor. and guess where i purchased those cards??? at santa cruz's most beloved bookstore, or should i say book stores. i don't really need to name it do i?? you all know what i'm talking about. yes, this bookstore is frequented by homosexuals, liberals, feminists, yada, yada, yada, and surprise!!!! they sold me many of the postcards in question.
i'm sorry if you aren't recieving the response you were expecting to get out of management. we, at the brewery do a great job at making sure our patrons are happy and have a good time at the brewery. but i can't change the way some of you feel about art. that's personal opinion. and this has become a personal attack on me. you are basically telling me that something must me wrong with me if i find these postcard beautiful. and i do. i think they are lovely. this has nothing to do with service or food, but you are trying to find ways to bring those issues into this because you are not getting the response you want.
i'm sure some people somewhere in the world find the statue of david offensive. do you agree?? do you find it as ridiculous as i find this entire aricle??? what about the women in morrocco??? i was there and watched them shame me for wearing shorts and a short sleeve shirt. do you wear shorts or a short sleeve shirt?? you would be a disgrace over there. but not here in our great country of america. because we're free thinkers over here, right??? or so i thought.
there are so many important issues out there that need to be addressed. i really think if you folks spent 1/2 the time and energy that you have on this issue, you might really do some good out there. -jessica
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

An anonymous poster writes of the thread, "No real argument no real point just angry ranting with no real point."

I haven’t read everything here, but I’ve seen two obvious points made. I think one point was that this artwork at the Seabright Brewery is sexist and should be removed. Another point was made that these pieces are so absurd as to be obvious satire that should not be taken so seriously.

To me there is a problem. Personally I feel that if this is in fact satire or a statement on the past the owners of the Seabright would do well to mix it up with images of strong women and statements such as pictures with provocative signs and people marching for women’s rights. This would be thought provoking and bring some symbolic clarity.

The current display has naturally provoked this outraged response.

A similar attempt at humor can be found at the Santa Cruz Diner where a sign is up telling hippies to use the side door. (There is no side door and even if there was...) Some want to act like this is just a funny joke, including people with long hair that would be labeled hippies by such people and potentially face their violence.

Should we ignore blatant expressions of underlying hate just because some people think that it is funny or too weird and old fashioned to represent the real living sexism of today? I just don't feel comfortable with that. Similar racist art would not be tolerated if some sort of anti-racist message did not accompany it. I think that we should hold the same standard here.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

After reading JD's most recent post I must add:

JD misses the entire point. What the women are wearing or not wearing in these pieces is not the point. The statements made in some of the pieces are what are offensive.
 

move on

Steven, you say mixing up the images with other images might bring some clarity. well, it actually is exactly that way in the bathroom. the pictures posted in the first posting are incredibly biased, and i should have brought this up sooner. on almost every side surrounding a pin-up image...there is an image poking fun at men and the steroetypes of the 50's. such as.....a women holding a casserole and smiling, and the caption says "it's a casserole silly"; or a man stading by a open refrigerator, the women digging in it and the caption "male refrigerator blindness takes another victim" ; another one with a woman standing in front of an emtpy chair, and the caption reads "i like imaginary men most of all"
not all are about men either. some say "my garden kicks ass" and other say things about love for shoes ect...ect.... it doesn't get anymore satirical than that. so yes, these images are definatly surrounded by others that SHOULD make the whole thing light hearted and fun. ( i guess no one wanted to point this out before) oh, and again to point out, right in the middle of all this, is a tampon machine, stating big and bold on the front that 20% of profiits go to women with breast cancer who have no insurance. that doesn't sound very hateful to me.
i'd also like to add that some of these posts haven't gotten just so far out there. this is my last and final post. i'm done with this thread.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

The pieces don't make any statement. That's the point; the original article projected one interpretation as though it were a truth. Rather than stay open to the interpretation of others the author said, basicly "I see it this way so remove it". The article is very demanding, telling others what to do, think, and feel.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Why is a shadow rape?
Why does a woman in uniform running sugnify desertion?
Why does a goose biting a woman signify an unwanted sexual advance by a man (specialy since a goose is female)?
Why is a woman afraid of a mouse degraded (mice can be scary little critters)?
Why is the observation post a male unwanted sexual advance, bieng the stick is an inanimate piece of wood (which would be rather sexist to refer to men as)?
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Thanks for the clarification JD. I’m not sure that other pieces showing a man’s ineptitude in the refrigerator (around the house) is really what I was getting at in terms of presenting an anti-sexist message. It is, however, a good example of how sexist stereotypes are often damaging to both men and women.

It is weird to me that the sexism in some of this art is not obvious to all. From messages of a woman’s career is in the home to a woman in the military being terrified of a mouse to the symbolic “humor? of a woman being pinched in the ass, a common form of sexual harassment, there is an avalanche of offensive symbolism here.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

P.S. While this is completely off topic I should also point out in reply that Geese are both male and female. While the term gander applies to the male of any species of goose, goose can apply to both males and females.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

they may be sexist but i dont see rape or male unwanted sexual advance of any kind.
the darkness lies within
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

"Blah blah", Thanks for admitting these works are sexist.

"Goose", I don't know how you missed it but I already answered your question when I said, "While the term gander applies to the male of any species of goose, “goose? can apply to both males and females."

"4 got my blinders", claims, "You can't be a person living in the 40's -- seeing a reflection of what this art meant at that time. You can't see past right here and now. You're stuck."

Actually I can see what it meant for people living in the 40s. It meant horrible oppression for women. That meaning does not change with time.

Sexism does not age into a smooth brandy. It does not become funny. Fortunately time, or more accurately a vocal and militant women’s rights movement buoyed by the anti-war movement in the 60s and 70s has changed some things for women. Silence in the face of sexism would have left us in the same sexist mindsets of the McCarthy era 50s when husbands were encouraged to check their unruly wives into mental hospitals for electro-shock “therapy?.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Actualy Webstaer and steve differ. The dictionary definition for goose is specifically female. Now can we please move past it.
 

The Genus Anser, Geese (Plural), Goose (singular)

Updated: (Please delete the almost identical post above and not this post.)

Actually Webster agrees with me.

My copy of the Living Webster Encyclopedic Dictionary has a very similar definition as the one someone posted above. That has now been deleted but can be found at: www.answers.com/goose&r=67

As I pointed out, and as definition (a) agrees, “goose? includes both males and females, unless you want to now argue that the genera Anser and Branta include no males.

The species shown in the art, Anser domesticus, also contains both males and females and any member of the species is properly referred to as the "Domestic Goose", or simply “goose? to be less specific.
 

One sided story

Everyone wants this art to be interpreted according to whatever their own political bias may be. Maybe it's not all about you. Maybe it's about getting outside of your chosen bias. Maybe it's about questioning your bias. Maybe it has become a mirror to point out your bias but you don't realize it because you are unable to see that you are wearing blinders. You can't see outside of your own small little world because of your fears. You can't be a person living in the 40's -- seeing a reflection of what this art meant during those times.

You can't see past right here and now. You're stuck. You carry your baggage everywhere you go and you are ready, willing and agitated enough to punish anyone or anything that doesn't conform to your bias.

So your reality bubble is the only correct one and everyone who doesn't see things your way is ignorant, clueless, oppressive, or unenlightened.

Please give me a brain transplant so I can be exactly like you. You are so intelligent and so enlightened and so perfect.

Please do all of us customers and friends of the Seabright Brewery a favor. Allow us to be imperfect. Allow us to have a sense of humor. Allow us to be tolerant of different times, places, peoples, and viewpoints. Allow us to keep our own point of view after listening and respectfully disagreeing with your ideas. The Seabright Brewery is not your house. Don't tell us how to decorate it. You can leave any time you want. We all like it here. We are not offended and we think the people who are must be blinded by their chosen prejudices. That's your problem.

Some people have creativity and a sense of humor. How delightful! Some are robots to their chosen belief system. I'm so sorry that you choose to live in such a dark little room....

Please feel free to buy your drinks and burgers anywhere you like. Telling a business how they should decorate is silly. Do us a favor. Go somewhere else.
 

Sexual Harassment?

SAN FRANCISCO
Sexual motives not necessary for sex harassment
Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Saturday, September 3, 2005

Sexual harassment doesn't have to be motivated by sex -- or even by sexism -- to be illegal, as long as the harasser abuses one sex more than another, a federal appeals court ruled Friday. www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi harassment&sn=001&sc=1000


So how come there aren't sexual pictures of men in the restaurant?
 

Re: Sexual Harassment (not)

Sexual Harassment is a workplace issue between an employer and an employee or between employees dealing with the same employeer. This issue is between a customer and a business. Get it? It's not Sexual Harassment.

This whole issue is really about a customer trying to censor the art displayed by a business because the customer doesn't like the art (or possibly because they don't like the business or business owner).

Have you ever had a job? Did you receive training about Sexual Harassment? Did you sleep through it?

Once again.

The real issue here is censorship
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I agree with: Taken out of Context -- What do you know about the 50's? This is a completely ridiculous argument. Honor and recognize history for the mistakes that were made and change TODAY. But don't disrespect those that came before you. This is the reality of the 50's so stop trying to dismantle it. This is how the world used to be, if you don't like it, take a piss somewhere else. There is also a lack of adequate public bathrooms in Santa Cruz, so think about your fucking privilege when you are boycotting one of them, as it may hurt alot of people in the community when they decide to charge for entrance or lock the door. Don't like the art? Take a piss somewhere else and get over yourselves! You PC idiots! I may sound like an old codger but your cell phones are really fucking annoying, so I guess you don't mind if I destroy yours, do you? IT REALLY OFFENDS ME. 2005 SUCKS ANYWAY! lET HISTORY BE! You want a revolution get out of your little ghetto bathroom and see and participate in the real world and against REAL SUFFERING! You all go to UC probably and are indoctrinated with this crap so much you can't take a step or open your mouth without fear of offending someone. Don't destroy art, destroy those things that are fucking up the planet. Art is art, don't be so afraid of images that conflict with your "enlightened world view," college students. Once you spend some time off campus, you'll figure out what's really important. There IS life outside your Women's Studies Class. I hope you find it. Peace.
 

Old Stinky Sexism Is Not Better Than The New

"Udder Side", claims, "You can't be a person living in the 40's -- seeing a reflection of what this art meant at that time. You can't see past right here and now. You're stuck."

"Grumpy Old Codger" makes the same mistake.

Actually I can see what it meant for people living in the 40s. It meant horrible oppression for women. That meaning does not change with time.

Sexism does not age into a smooth brandy. It does not become funny. Fortunately time, or more accurately a vocal and militant women’s rights movement buoyed by the anti-war movement in the 60s and 70s has changed some things for women. Silence in the face of sexism would have left us in the same sexist mindsets of the McCarthy era 50s when husbands were encouraged to check their unruly wives into mental hospitals for electro-shock “therapy?.

"Grumpy Old Codger" claims, "There IS life outside your Women's Studies Class. I hope you find it." I much prefer a society where we now do have women's studies classes and some expectation of equality in employment. This did not come about by laughing at this kind of sexist (not sexual) crap.

Pass The ERA! No to the confirmation of Roberts! For a boycott of the the Seabright Brewery until some feminist art is displayed or the sexist is taken down!
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

"Goose" are you too dumb to not read all of the different definitions?

Steven Argue has already schooled you on this. Now drop it!
 

Gotta love them blinders

Dear Steven,

Since "Political Correctness" is the new McCarthyism and the new way to try to control the dialog of who is "right" and who is "the enemy" maybe you can help Joe McCarthy make a come-back and make sexism into the new communism.

You and Joe have a lot in common. You both claim that we are in mortal danger from these insidious forces of corruption. That your cause is the one and true cause that Americans should follow. That anyone that disagrees with you is a "xxxxxxxx-ist" -- in your case "sexist" -- in Joe's case "communist".

Your both try to claim that your belief's represent "truth, light and the American way". All others are corrupt and degenerate. Give me a break. Sell your narrow-minded crap to the mentally deficient -- not free thinkers. If you don't understand the art get an education -- don't blame the art for not fitting into your "Politically Correct" version of what all art should represent or portray. The Communists also had a government that determined what art was "politically correct" and what art was "degenerate". Just because you don't understand the context doesn't mean it is evil or sexist. Holy cow! Please! Don't tell me what kind of crap you would make out of a Macy's advertizement.

The Politically Correct way is just another way to try to keep people from thinking outside the narrow definitions of your political dogma and keep them from exercizing their minds. Your blinders are showing again. Oh, that's right, you can't see them because you are in denial. I hope they give you great comfort. You apparently will be wearing them for a long time.
 

pucky suns

Udder Side who sounds like Charlie,

You can cram your fingers in your ears and sing at the top of your lungs, wishing your way back into 1940s, but it won't do any good. Women can get divorced, have control over their bodies and expect to get paid as much as men. Black people are allowed to go the same school as your child, Mexican-Americans can eat at the same restaurants as you and Asians can own guns.

Even though you hate the idea of anyone infringing on your white male privilege and you surround yourself with "yes" people, it will eventually dawn on you that the world is changing. Toto, we're not in Kansas (1940's) anymore.

McCarthyism? That is hilarious. Who is actually doing the persecuting here?
 

You people are incredible

I left SC 10 years ago and one of the things I miss is the Seabright Brewery and it's atmosphere. One thing I don't miss is the pervasive attitude of imposing an impossible standard of political correctness on everything and everybody. The people who took pictures of the inside of the bathroom (I'm assuming w/o permission) ought to be ashamed of themselves, if not thrown in jail. If one feels the pictures are "abhorrent" (OP spelled it incorrectly) or "pornographic", DON"T FUCKING GO THERE! "The goose represents a man"? Listen to yourself! I'm thinking of making a special trip to CA just to have a burger and beer at the Seabright Brewery to show my solidarity. You people are incredible.
Kevin
PS Stop playing the victim and sign your names to your posts, or is that degrading to your self?
 

Lazy "Victimists" are "Keyboard Activists"

All these lazy victims are good at is using their fingers to whine through their keyboards. I talked to Charlie on Friday. He says this attack has only helped business. The "Pin-Up Art" is a new marketing and advertising opportunity for them. There will be pin-up designs on Brewery T-shirts soon. There is already a new beer called Pin-Up Amber.

The "Activisim" so far:

One call to Charlie. Period.

No complaints to the Managers. None.

So keep up the good work. If I didn't know better I might accuse Charlie of dreaming up this whole "controversy". You "Politically Correct" UCSC activists are so out of touch with real life that you can't realize that none of us locals are brainwashed into your "Victimist Philosophy" and can see it for the disempowering passivity that leads to a few weak bleating sheep like you.

Thanks again for the laughs! It's been fun.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

As for "Udder Side" comparing me to the racist, sexist and anti-communist McCarthy, it just doesn’t fit. The actual repression against women in the 1950's was very much connected to the political repression of the U.S. government led by McCarthy. McCarthy led your cause against women’s rights, not mine for freedom.

It is weird to me that the sexism in some of this art is not obvious to all. From messages of a woman’s career is in the home to a woman in the military being terrified of a mouse to the symbolic “humor? of a woman being pinched in the ass, a common form of sexual harassment, there is an avalanche of offensive symbolism here.
 

Re: Yuck! Ignorant Blowhards at Seabright Brewery

Am I the only one who has noticed what the sexist men on this this thread fear most of all?

Smart women... women who read books and go to school. Women who think for themselves and are willing to speak their truths.

That's what they're _REALLY_ afraid of.

Look, how many posts in this thread have tried to belittle their opponents by claiming that those opponents "go to UCSC" or are "Women's Studies" majors," huh?

It's pathetic.

==

Quick to judge and quick to anger
and slow to understand,
ignorance and prejudice and fear
walk hand in hand
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I dont think these posts show inteligence at all. Yes ignorance and fear like you said but it's the ignorance of the victimists I fear.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Since I didn't know what a victimist is I thought I'd look it up in the dictionary. I was not at all surprised not to find the term.

The far right has made up this word to try to pigeon hole all victims of discrimination (be they women, Blacks, Native Americans etc.) as whining losers any time that they stand up against their oppression.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

"All of the sudden he got really defensive and starting saying something like, "Well, what about the way white construction workers are portrayed?" And then he made another comparison about how he thought that white men were treated unfairly in media. He told me that he votes Democratic, but then said that I needed to "get some perspective". He seemed to be insinuating that he thought people made too much of sexist and racist imagery."

Good for him. Go somewhere else to drink if you don't like the atmosphere. Grow up people. You Portland-IMC people are a f-ing joke.

And if you really give a f about sexism (to say nothing of racist stereotypes) you should be getting upset about the tripe that passes for hip-hop music these days. Of course you "activists" say nothing about this garbage b/c that would be "racist". Go figure...
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

"You Portland-IMC people are a f-ing joke."

Should read:

You SC-IMC people are a f-ing joke.

Sorry for the typo. And, for the record, the Portland-IMC and peanut gallery *is* more of a joke than this one. I'll give ya'all that much...
 

CAUGHT in the act of trolling!

This is hilarious!

Check it out! The TROLL has forgotten what site he is on!!

'yo' first writes:

"Good for him. Go somewhere else to drink if you don't like the atmosphere. Grow up people. You Portland-IMC people are a f-ing joke."

WHOOPSIE! Mr. Troll, who apparently goes to both scimc and portland imc quite frequently, has mixed them up because they both use a light green background and a dark green font. UH-OH!

Now watch as 'yo' the Troll deftly tries to cover his blunder:

""You Portland-IMC people are a f-ing joke."

Should read:

You SC-IMC people are a f-ing joke.

Sorry for the typo. And, for the record, the Portland-IMC and peanut gallery *is* more of a joke than this one. I'll give ya'all that much..."


Wow, that is so touching! While the Troll has truthfully acknowledged that SC-IMC readers are a "f-ing joke," he kindly apologizes for his ERROR of not realizing what the hell site he was on in the first place!

Gee, Mr. Troll, I hope this doesn't interfere with your CIVIL SERVICE PROMOTION. You were a good speller, unlike most, "I'll give ya'all that much."

(LSHIPMP!)
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

As you know, you share more than the same light green background. Your politics--while not as positively loony as those in Portland--are quite similar. Winess the knee-jerk responses about "sexism" here. Anyway, my point remains, if you don't like the venue, DON'T DRINK THERE!
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

The anonymous toll that goes by “Yo? says, "Your politics--while not as positively loony as those in Portland--are quite similar... Anyway, my point remains, if you don't like the venue, DON'T DRINK THERE!"

Anyway if you don't like this venue...

Besides I think this second point about not eating or drinking there was the one we were making.
 

Victimism does not equal Smart Women

How "thinkin feller" can make "victimism" into "smart women" is laughable.

Smart Women are strong, vibrant, caring, compassionate, supportive, giving, tolerant, understanding, open-minded, literate, wise, inclusive, unafraid of challenges, and willing to act on what they believe.

I see little of that in this attack on the Brewery and its art display in the women's bathroom.

If people keep mentioning the "UCSC students" and "Women's Studies" classes it's because some of us have watched this contingent try to manipulate, censor and control the art, politics and cultural dialog of this town FOR THE LAST 35 YEARS! The whole Politically Correct "movement" is traceable to the campus "Thought Police" of the PC movement. We recognize it when we see it.

One of the greatest UCSC professors, Gregory Bateson, talked sometimes about the importance of "Pattern Recognition" to advanced species such as Homo Sapiens. It's the ability to create and recognize a "whole" from just a few small parts of it. It takes time, experience and a mind that's able to analyze and "connect the dots" to be able to assemble this "whole" from just a few clues.

We have more than enough clues to put the pieces together. This whole attack on the Brewery smells like UCSC Women's Studies types. The Politically Correct diatribe is self-rightous, attacking and nasty.

The blindsided personal attack you see at the top of the page was published first. Then someone at IndyMedia Santa Cruz called Charlie to tell him they had published this cheesy "article". There were no polite phone calls or "sit down and talk" with Charlie or JD. They want him to "respect females" but aren't willing to give him any respect or allow him to explain his reasons for putting up the art in the first place. Attack first -- ask questions later. Nice Politically Correct tactics. I suppose you don't need to be fair, inclusive or find out the facts when you are so perfect and Politically Correct.

Your tactics and philosophy go hand in hand. No tolerance for other's beliefs and a zelous disregard for other's rights. Not everyone is as weak-brained and inexperienced as you.

We love strong women at the brewery. Strong women don't have to be told what to believe, they can figure it out for themselves. Playing the victim is not the sign of a strong woman. The manager who designed the bathroom and put up the art is a strong woman. She just doesn't buy into your Victimist Political Philosophy.

When you view all art though the lens of your political philosophy you narrow your understanding of the world and the artist. You are like the priests of the middle ages who belived that the universe revolved around the Earth. You are Victimist-centric in your worldview. Travel. See the world. Open your eyes. Put yourself into someone else's worldview. There's a big world out there. It's not all about you.
 

We recognize it when we see it

The claim was made, "You are Victimist-centric in your worldview."

Since I didn't know what a victimist is I thought I'd look it up in the dictionary. I was not at all surprised not to find the term.

The far right has made up this word to try to pigeon-hole all victims of discrimination (be they women, Blacks, Native Americans etc.) as whining losers any time that they stand up against their oppression.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

At least they come up with cool words, quite apropriate in the given situation. Victimist or how about "do nothing victimists".
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

These are whining losers standing up for nothing and standing against even less.
 

Lazy Literalist Victimist

Oh, now we have the brainiac Thought Police saying that if a word isn't in the dictionary then it doesn't count as a word. Maybe it doesn't even exist since it's not in the word bible. It doesn't surprise me that you can't figure out what a victimist is since your brainwasher hasn't told you what to believe about the truth of this idea yet.

The dictionary is always behind the times since a panel of language usage experts have to agree on the meaning and usage of a new word. Language evolves faster than the dictionary. If you look in the dictionary you will see the suffix "-ist" listed. Look under "i". From dictionary.com:

-ist
suff.
1. a. One that performs a specified action: lobbyist.
b. One that produces, makes, operates, plays, or is connected with a specified thing: novelist.
2. A specialist in a specified art, science, or skill: biologist.
3. An adherent or advocate of a specified doctrine, theory, or school of thought: anarchist.
4. One that is characterized by a specified trait or quality: romanticist.

In this case I mean to use the word according to the third definition but you live the word in accord with the fourth definition.

If you don't understand "victim" I'll let you do your own make-up homework since you were so lazy about trying to understand the "ist" part of the word.

As for "-centric", another suffix. I'll save your lazy ass the trouble of typing in another search -- in case you are dyslexic or disinclined. (look it up)

-centric
suff.
1. Having a specified kind or number of centers: polycentric.
2. Having a specified object as the center: geocentric.
3. Focused on or viewed in terms of a specified area, subject, or culture: anthropocentric; Afrocentric.

Here I am using the third part of the definition. If all of this is beyond your ability with the english language and the ways of finding the meanings of words then perhaps you should go to a library and ask one of the reference desk librarians to help you with it. I realize that schools have deteriorated over the last couple of decades but this may have as more to do with the popularity of video games and television than the quality of our teachers and educational institutions.

I had a great teacher at a local high school who taught us the meaning of the word "ethnocentric" during the first week of our junior year Sociology class. Its a powerful word that opened my mind to the idea that a wise person tries to see beyond the limits of the small part of the world that s/he grew up in. Travel, wide ranging reading and an ability to see past the bullshit of the current "groupthink" are some methods of opening to the more grand scale of living your life and being open and flexible... that and nuking Fox News.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

Nope, your definition doesn't fit. I've seen your made-up word used in context. Here is the proper definition:

The far right has made up this word to try to pigeonhole all victims of discrimination (be they women, Blacks, Native Americans etc.) as whining losers any time that they stand up against their oppression.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

It seems to me you've taken these images totally out of context. This cheapens your message and does nothing but hurt your cause.
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

How have I taken these images "totally out of context"?
 

There Is Only One Possible Context: Sexism

Everything in the world that is wrong can be cured by claiming to be a victim and then complaining as loud as possible that someone is oppressing you.

If it wasn't for all the oppressed people complaining nothing would ever change.

Whining and complaining are the best weapons to defeat the oppressors.

Writing messages on this board will cure all the ills that the Seabright Brewery is forcing upon the downtrodden and oppressed people who shouldn't have to drink beer and pee in some place with pictures of rape and oppression on the wall of the women's bathroom.

There is only one valid viewpoint and that is the view that all bad things in this world emanate from the oppression of old, rich, powerful, white males of european descent. (OK, we can leave out the "old, rich and powerful" part. We wouldn't want to discriminate.)

I don't have to listen to any other person's point of view because none of them are as enlightened as I am.

When I look at art I can tell what symbology and hidden meanings are being promoted by the artist, the exibitor and their supporters.

Every form of expression should be measured against the values and philosophy of my Politically Correct belief system. There are no other relevant ways to measure anything.

If I keep repeating my beliefs, over and over, soon all people will understand and come to believe as I do.

We should blame all of the oppression in the world on the ignorant and hateful people that are older than me because they are the cause of all the suffering and oppression of the downtrodden and exploited minorities and cultures. They want to keep the system the same because it favors all their ignorant prejudices.

Our generation is the only generation to really fight for and stand up against the oppression of the dreaded white powerful elites.

All men are potential rapists. All whites are potential racists. All men desire to oppress women and use them as baby factories for making more males.

If I wasn't so oppressed I could succeed in life. The weight of all the oppression of the world is too much for me to fight against. I deserve special considerations and accommodations since I have been so damaged and hurt by my oppressors.

I can't believe it but some ignorant women actually don't understand my views on sexism and exploitation. They must be brainwashed by oppressive and controlling men. I will try to tolerate their misguided actions but only because they haven't yet seen the one true light of Political Correctness. I still hold out some hope for them.

I have the right and responsibility to correct the mistakes and trespasses of others in the name of releasing them from their unfelt oppression. I will explain to them how and why they are being exploited and try to raise their awareness of their plight. It is my duty to explain to them how they are being victimized.

In order for the downtrodden to have the opportunity to flourish and attain equality it is necessary for special considerations to be made so that their lack of appropriate skills and knowledge can be compensated for in order to make up for past acts of discrimination. My incompetence at work is the fault of my oppressors and has nothing to do with my natural abilities.

We, the oppressed minority, can only reach equality if we can "take down" the white male oppressors that are controlling the system. They are the cause of all oppression and behind all of our failures.
 

Hey Heni!

Dude, you sound a little too mainstream and weak to me. Get some attitute!!!
 

Get some Perspective!

A liberal is a conservative who's been arrested. A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. ~Wendy Kaminer

Education is indoctrination if you're white - subjugation if you're black. ~James Baldwin

Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world. ~Arthur Schopenhauer, "Studies in Pessimism," Psychological Observations, 1851

A woman who sells herself to buy bread for her aged mother or her child, stands upon a higher moral plane than the blushing maiden who marries a money bag, in order to gratify her frivolous appetite for parties and travel. Of two men, he is the less deceived, the more logical and rational, who pays his companion of an hour in cash, each time, than he who gets a companion for life by the marriage contract, whose society was purchased as much as in the former case. Every alliance between man and woman in which either one is influenced by the substantial or selfish advantage to be gained by it, is prostitution. ~Max Nordau, Conventional Lies of Our Civilization

A pedestal is as much a prison as any small space. ~Gloria Steinem

The pyramids will not last a moment compared with the daisy. ~D.H. Lawrence

I know what I have given you. I do not know what you have received. ~Antonio Porchia, Voces, 1943, translated from Spanish by W.S. Merwin

The highest virtue here may be least in another world. ~Kahlil Gibran

The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes. ~Marcel Proust

The reverse side also has a reverse side. ~Japanese Proverb

There are always three sides to every story: your side, the other side, and the truth. ~Author Unknown

There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so. ~William Shakespeare, Hamlet, 1600

Travelers never think that they are the foreigners. ~Mason Cooley

We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. ~Anaïs Nin

We judge others by their behavior. We judge ourselves by our intentions. ~Ian Percy

What we see depends mainly on what we look for. ~John Lubbock
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I think that all of you are overreacting get over it .. women were supressed in the past who cares and art is allowed to be expressive ... weather you like it or not.. this is whats wrong with the world ... you wont let go of the past and try and make today a better place. If people feel the way these paintings are expressing things are correct you can change anyone... and by talking about something does nothing.. Why not think about how we can better our future not dwell on the past
 

Re: Yuck! Dirty Bathrooms at Seabright Brewery

I have to say that I have seen by far more demeaning commentary to women from the people perporting to be offended because these images are demeaning to women.

These images are art, like it or not. Just like "Piss Christ" and "Yo Mama’s Last Supper" which I'm sure you would all have fought gladly for regardless of how offensive because it was "art".

It is relevant to put the artist into the perspective in their work. These are done by a woman. Because you're offended she's less of a woman? What an absolutely idiotic concept.

Because I actually enjoy these depictions I support the subliminal message that it's acceptable to rape women? Not only as a woman, but as a victim of rape I am disgusted by that unfounded, ridiculous accusation.

Why don't you "ladies" grow up. There is so much to be made better in the world. There are people starving, there are women who are being abused. There are women and children out there who need real help - not this kind of petty "crap" that you seem to think is some kind of brilliantly devised plot against women by women.

The ironic thing is in your support of women, you have actually managed to become offensive to women.

Good grief - ignorance can be shed - let's hope you people manage it successfully.
 

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