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Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

03_StanleyWilliams.jpg
SAVE STANLEY "TOOKIE" WILLIAMS

International Day of Action

Wednesday, November 30th @ 7:30PM

UCSC

Earth and Marine B206

The State of California has set December 13th as the execution date for Stanely Tookie Williams, whose remarkable change from co-founder of the Crips gang to Nobel peace prize nominee was made into the movie "Redemption: The Stan Tookie Williams Story" starring Jamie Foxx. Foxx has spoken up for Williams, saying "We can't let it happen. We've got to do everything we can to get the word out."

Take part in the international day of action locally at a teach-in taking place at UC Santa Cruz this Wednesday, November 30th at 7:30PM featuring:

-Prof. Angela Davis

-Prof. Paul Ortiz

and a special performance from Rainbow Theatre

For more info about the case and the campaign please check out:

Camapaign To End The Death Penalty www.nodeathpenalty.org, www.savetookie.org and www.tookie.com
 
 


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Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Williams found the store clerk, Albert Owens, out front sweeping the parking lot. Owens, who now would have been a grandfather, was ordered back into the store where Williams told him to lie on the floor. It was after Williams collected less then $122.00, Williams shot Owens execution style in the back. He then shared the spoils of the crime with three others, who would later provide information about the crime to the police.

After the robbery Williams was quoted as having told his brother "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him!" Williams then made a growling noise and laughed hysterically.

A little over a month later on March 11, young Robert Yang woke up to the sound of screaming and gunfire. Robert lived with his family in a modest motel they owned on South Vermont Street in Los Angeles. Robert woke as Williams was robbing the hotel of $600.00. Before leaving, Williams murdered Robert's father, mother and his sister to prevent being identified. Williams used the same gun that he was identified as purchasing years earlier.

Let this guy burn in hell, no one ever completely changes.....A con artist is willing to con anyone who will listen. The biggest lie ever told is the lie that he would have you believe. He did horrible things to these people! and you want him to go free? Why don't you look online for the pictures of how he executed these people without giving a damn.....then see how you feel...

www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Hey fool, why don't you question your lying government and begin thinking critically about these sort of things? The man was framed. If you don't believe so, then go piss off, because no one wants to read your idiocy.
 

STOP THE EXECUTION OF STANLEY TOOKIE WILLIAMS!!!

SAVE THE PEACEMAKER - STOP THE EXECUTION OF STANLEY TOOKIE WILLIAMS!

The Socialist Worker newspaper, UCSC African/Black Student Alliance, Focus on the Death Penalty, Campaign to End the Death Penalty (CEDP), SaveTookie.org and others are participating in an international day of action to save Stan Tookie Williams on Wednesday, November 30. Mr. Williams’s execution date is set for December 13th at San Quentin.

We are calling on California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant Tookie clemency. Tookie, who co-founded the Los Angeles Crips gang when he was 17, has turned his life around while on death row. He has written nine children's books from his cell on San Quentin's death row about the harsh realities of gang life. He dedicated his life on death row to helping kids stay out of gangs. For his efforts, he was awarded a Presidential Call to Service Award earlier this year and has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times. Jamie Foxx, who portrayed Stan in the film “Redemption: The Stan "Tookie" Williams Story?, turns 38 on December 13, recently commented that there is only one birthday present he wants from California Gov. (and fellow actor) Arnold Schwarzenegger: clemency for Stan "Tookie" Williams. Recording artist and former Crips gang member Snoop Dogg remarked how inspirational he found Tookie to be and has taken up Stan’s case requesting clemency.

Two events are planned in Santa Cruz. At 12 noon, a protest rally at Santa Cruz City Hall will feature speakers from the ACLU, Santa Cruz City Council and Death Penalty Focus. Santa Cruz will be declared as a "World City Against the Death Penalty" by Santa Cruz Mayor, Mike Rotkin.

Wednesday night there will be an all-out rally and public forum at UCSC in the Earth and Marine Sciences building room b206 at 7:30pm. The “Rainbow Theatre? will present a special performance on Stan’s behalf followed by a public forum featuring - Professor Angela Davis (History of Consciousness) who is an activist and acclaimed author promoting women's rights and racial justice, class and gender while pursuing her career as a philosopher and teacher at the University of California at Santa Cruz and San Francisco University; - Asst. Professor Paul Ortiz (African American history, U.S. social and political history, social documentary, oral history, subaltern studies and theories of resistance, U.S. South, Latino studies, social movements, working class history.) Activist and author of Emancipation Betrayed The Hidden History of Black Organizing and White Violence in Florida from Reconstruction to the Bloody Election of 1920; and - Lance Lindsey the executive director of Death Penalty Focus. He has worked as a teacher, social justice activist, community organizer and non-profit manager for all of his adult life. He is a past member of the board of directors of the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty and founder of California People of Faith Working Against the Death Penalty and Californians for a Moratorium on Executions. The panel will address Mr. Williams’s case and the inherent racist and inequitable nature of the death penalty followed by a Q & A session. We cannot allow the state of California to silence Tookie's powerful voice for peace. Start planning now to show your support for the “Peacemaker.?

For information contact (831)212-4466
iso_santacruz (at) hotmail.com

Focus on the Death Penalty (831)469-3306
www.deathpenalty.org/
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Could you please describe exactly where Earth and Marine B206 is on the UCSC campus? Is it near the old Nat Sci II building?

Also, after hearing that a Southern CA AM talk radio station has dedicated one hour per day to a "Tookie Must Die" radio program, I have decided (when I get back on Friday 11/25/05) to update the www.pagesincolor.com chat room schedule for Nov and Dec (not updated since April due to my selling my home, moving, commuting etc). The new chat room schedule will have "Tookie Must Live" as the topic 24/7 until Dec 13th, 2005, except for the short periods of time when I have it dedicated to Bathrobespierre's Broadsides (www.freakradio.org or 101.1 FM on your radio from 6-8PM Thursdays and 9:30 AM to 1:00PM Sundays)

As to the facts of the case, I would reccomend checking out the FRSC interview about the case at
santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/19003/index.php
before you go mouthing off as to the "fact" that Tookie did anything to the people he was alleged to have murdered.

To summarize, for those who don't have audio capability, Tookie has always maintained his innocence of these particular crimes. There is a bloody shoe print that does not match Tookie's shoes. The shot gun that was allegedly used is difficult for any kind of ballistics comparison to be made between one weapon and the shotgun pellets recovererd at the crime scene. Furthermore, the jail house snitch who testified in great detail was given the police file on the case before he came forward with his testimony about Tookie Williams confessing to him. Why would anyone confess in such great detail as the information given by the jailhouse snitch is a mystery. He even described the type and style of clothing of the vicitims. I hardly think that a madman who was busy killing someone and running from the cops would stop to take note of the exact color and style of the victims' clothing. There was another witness who testified at the trial who at the time of the killings, was beaten by the cops until he started "recalling" the "correct" version of what happened. The 9th circuit court of appeals ruled that such beating did not violate any procedural rule of witness intimidation actually affecting the trial since the beating occured 2 years before the trial. This witness was still shaking while describing this event 13 years later. Tookie is over 200 pounds, yet the witnesses described the killer(s) as being slightly built. How anyone could confuse them with Tookie is another mystery.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Quote from geoff:
"Hey fool, why don't you question your lying government and begin thinking critically about these sort of things? The man was framed. If you don't believe so, then go piss off, because no one wants to read your idiocy."

hey geoff, can't stand that this guy is a murderer? That's right, it's "ok" to think critically as long as "I believe" your opinion. Such bullcrap. The burden is on YOU to provide OVERWHELMING question of guilt. You have NO OVERWHELMING PROOF that this MAN is innocent. All of this is SPECULATION that he's innocent. Get a reality check. A jury found this guy guilty, don't even think about playing the race card either, it's irrelevant. IF this guy is such an inspiration, why can't he influence HIS OWN SON?

www.nbc4.tv/news/5331402/detail.html
His own son just got charged with allegedly raping a 13 year old girl. Things just don't seem so well for Williams & Company. As they say, the apple does not fall far from the tree. There is no doubt in my mind Stanley Tookie Williams is as guilty as Mumia Abu-Jamal for murdering. Both framed? I doubt it, lets just crawl into our little holes and pretend every black guy was framed by a white person..sarcasm.

Why don't we ask William's victims if he deserves clemency? Oh wait... we can't.... because they're DEAD! The clear issue here is not the plight of Stanley Tookie Williams, he is only the front of the agenda for you. You only support these people because of the issue of the death penalty no matter how depraved & horrific they are.

I see it now...if Charles Manson was reinstated for the death penalty (for the clueless, we're hypothesizing for the moment that the death penalty was not overturned for a brief period of time in US history), Indymedia and other leftist outlets would support him saying "Oh he wasn't so bad..., why don't we uhhh give him a 2nd chance?"

Any Democrat who values their political career in California is not going to say anything really about this execution because they KNOW it won't go over so well with the public. I don't see Senator Dianne Feinstein or Barabra Boxer on the bandwagon supporting Tookie William's innocence...

The only people supporting this guy really are overpaid, big-mouthed actors, rappers, and lunatics who want to be publicized in the media. But you say SNOOP DOG is supporting this guy! It's Economics stupid! Anything to sell more rap cd's on how the government is putting down the black man! He'll just tie in some lyrics about Stanley Tookie Williams. Let's just not hope for another crappy mix like "Drop it like it's hot"..

The point is, the people of the state of California elected THEIR government officials. The people of the state of California found Tookie Williams guilty for murdering 4 individuals. Justice is being served through the people, because the people MADE their decision on this guy.
 

"Tookie: From Chaos to Consciousness"

 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

There are limits to inspiration I suppose. Remember that it took Tookie 10 years of rotting in prison before he turned fully against the gang life. I'm dissapointed, but not suprised that his son may have done what is alleged. I would say that Tookie may be capable of swaying "swing voters" who are open to getting out of gangs or looking for a way out. But you can't lead a horse to water...

The specific issue here for me is weather or not Tookie, given a FAIR trial, is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I seriously question weather a jury with 3 black people on it (who were excluded from the original trial on the basis of race, and this was UPHELD by the 9th circuit court of appeals, and by default the US Supreme Court as being VALID or OK)would have convicted Williams beyond a reasonable doubt, if all that I mentioned earlier had been brought to light by good representation. It is true that in order to overturn a conviction based on evidence of innocence it is required to show overwhelming evidence of innocence, such as a DNA sample that does not match for instance. The person interviewed in the mp3 file I mentioned hints at such evidence, but unlike the case of Mumia where every detail appears to be aired publicly, these defense attorney's are playing their cards a little closer to their chest. However, it is not necessary to have overwhelming evidence of innocence if constitutional violations can be proved. If constitutional violations can be proved, then a new trial could be set and the standard for proving guilt would be reset to the level of "beyond a reasonable doubt". Unfortunately, it now appears that the 9th circuit and the US Supreme Court have explicitly shredded part of the US Constitution, making it ok to exclude blacks from juries on the basis of race, and making it ok for the police to engage in witness intimidation. The prosecutor in this case experienced having two of his prior convictions overturned precisely for excluding blacks from juries on the basis of race and he was repramanded each time by the court. But not this time. Go figure.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

The www.pagesincolor.com/chat.html chat room is now open for business. Come on over and let's chat about Stan Tookie Williams. Drop in any time. To be fair, there hasn't been much traffic durring Bathrobespierre's Broadsides, but there will be a host in the chat room at the following times through December 13th, 2005:

Mondays from 7PM-9PM
Tuesdays from 7PM-9PM
Fridays from 7PM-9PM
Saturdays from 7PM-9PM

There will also be a host or two during Bathrobespierre's Broadsides on 101.1 FM www.freakradio.org at 6-8PM Thursdays and 9:30AM-1PM Sundays. It is probably best to drop in Sunday if you are planning to visit during Bathrobespierre's Broadsides. Don't expect Robert to talk about Stan Tookie Williams all the time on the air, but the chat room can have whatever you want in there...
 

Location of Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I just got word back from the ISO about the location of the Earth and Marine Sciences building. It is just East of Nat Sci II, near the science library (new location or old location doesn't matter) for us old townies who don't know about the new campus buildings. A map can be found here:

maps.ucsc.edu/cm1b.html

A map of the entire campus can be found here:

maps.ucsc.edu/

Just click on whatever area you want to have enlarged, and a map simillar to the first one will appear.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

>hey geoff, can't stand that this guy is a murderer? That's right, it's "ok" to think critically as long as "I believe" your opinion. Such bullcrap. The burden is on YOU to provide OVERWHELMING question of guilt. You have NO OVERWHELMING PROOF that this MAN is innocent. All of this is SPECULATION that he's innocent. <

Actually, burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defense. NICE use of CAPS, though. Do you ALWAYS TALK like THIS?

>The point is, the people of the state of California elected THEIR government officials. The people of the state of California found Tookie Williams guilty for murdering 4 individuals. Justice is being served through the people, because the people MADE their decision on this guy.<

Totally illogical on your part, sorry. First off, you’re confusing judges and the legislature, second off, the actions of the legislature don’t automatically reflect the will of the people. I could add something about “the voters? not necessarily representing the people, but I suspect it would detract from the issue.

In any case, you’re probably trolling, and I probably shouldn’t even be responding. Somebody feel free to pour cold water on me if I get sucked in.

Thanks to folks in SC for organizing around this. You rock!
 

More than just a Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I almost forgot to post this too, from the SCPEL:

At 12 noon (on Wed, Nov 30th, 2005) , a protest rally at Santa Cruz City Hall (809 Center st., Santa Cruz) will feature speakers from the ACLU, Santa Cruz City Council and Death Penalty Focus. Santa Cruz will be declared as a "World City Against the Death Penalty" by Santa Cruz Mayor, Mike Rotkin.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

"the actions of the legislature don’t automatically reflect the will of the people. I could add something about “the voters? not necessarily representing the people, but I suspect it would detract from the issue."

Let me do some speculating on my own. Aside from you, your hollywood cohorts, and some other rag tag fringe organizations standing behind a murderer, you would be surprised to know that most people would not dispute the fate of this man for killing 4 people. If the Stanley William's defense had a legitimate excuse as to his innocence, they would have used it by now. If it took him 10 YEARS to turn against gang life, well I don't think he's completely changed at all. Same old game, different story.

As far as I'm concerned, this trial is over. It has been over a long time. The Burden of Proof lies on the DEFENCE now since they're appealing his sentence. Get it? Tookie's going to have a hard time saying he didn't kill these people when the gun "he bought" was used to commit the crimes.

In the end, you can't convince people that "Happy Holiday's" is better than "X-mas" because it's more PC, nor can you convince them that Stanley Williams is innocent. Please do not refute with something like "thou shall not kill" is a Christian proverb, I am not religious, besides I find it hypocritical that liberal organizations such as the ACLU who try to remove Christianity from every reference in our society have the gall to use that proverb when defending this guy. Pure hypocrisy at its finest.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

:::from san diego.indymedia.org:::

"Wikipedia defines an Internet Troll as: 'either a person who sends messages on the Internet hoping to entice other users into angry or fruitless responses, or a message sent by such a person.' San Diego IMC strives to provide both a grassroots media resource as well as a forum for people to contribute to a meaningful discussion about local issues. Please, when posting comments, be respectful of others and ignore those trying to interrupt or discourage meaningful discourse. Thank you. --San Diego Indymedia volunteers"

Just thought it, er, relevant.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

>definition of "trolling"

::shakes off the cold water::

Thanks. Mmmm, refreshing.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

"Totally illogical on your part, sorry. First off, you’re confusing judges and the legislature, second off, the actions of the legislature don’t automatically reflect the will of the people. I could add something about “the voters? not necessarily representing the people, but I suspect it would detract from the issue."

Indeed, he was judged by a jury of his peers - and they saw it fit to find him guilty.

Perhaps showing potential gang members they will be executed for their lifestyle will be more effective than Williams writing books...

the only thing that should prevent him from being executed is if he's actually innocent of the crimes for which he's been charged.
 

Jury of his peers

Indeed, the only thing that should prevent his execution is evidence of innocence, unless it's evidence of misconduct at his trial. There is ample evidence of both:

Innocence: Main prosecution witness was a paid police informant who was supplied case information overnight before making his deposition. Bloody shoe print didn't match Tookie's. Fingerprints from scene didn't match Tookie's.

Misconduct at trial: Above evidence never introduced to "jury of peers," from which all possible black jurors had been removed (and there were only three in the total jury pool). Prosecutor had been admonished in past cases for racist comments. Moved Tookie's trial to a mostly white community, and in closing arguments compared Tookie to an animal at the San Diego zoo. Prosecutor removed black potential jurors from jury specifically because of their skin color.

As for his appeals being denied and all that, Chief Justice Robert's first case (Tookie's final appeal) was delayed while he was confirmed, then denied WITHOUT ANY COMMENT, which effifectively creates the precedent that openly racist prosecutors can remove potential jurors based on the color of their skin, and that racist comments in the courtroom are not grounds for retrial/appeal...

Having fun yet?
The man has been nominated for the Nobel prize not once, but NINE times.
See you at San Quentin: Midnight on December 13th (Monday night/Tuesday morning), come to San Quentin (Marin) to bear witness, to stand in protest, to stand in vigil, to listen and wait and watch while the state, with all its powers, forces a human being into a box and slowly (over eight minutes) kills him with chemicals. www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~tonya/spring/cap/frankie.htm

As for the death penalty's usefulness as a deterant, look up
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php
www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html

for more information on the death penalty:
teacher.deathpenaltyinfo.msu.edu/

Listen to the MP3 file above, a FRSC Interview with Barbara Becknell. There you'll find all the information that isn't in most of the mainstream discourse, and there you'll find the reason why indymedia is your media.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Kindness to the cruel is cruelty to the kind. Never,ever reward evil! No clemency for Tookie and no more idolizing of vicious murderers!
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I don't understand how his Peace Prize nominations mean a dang thing when it comes down to why he was tried in the first place. That does not forgive him for his crimes to his neighborhood.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Is it possible to oppose the death penalty without canonizing a demonstrably bad guy? Can't we simply hold that capital punishment is wrong without torturously twisting a lifeling criminal into some sort of savior? It damages credibilty when you try this approach. Indeed, it ends up justifying the status quo of capital punishment by arguing that the only reason he should not be executed is because he (fill in the blank). How about, we should not kill him because the death penalty is morally wrong? Even if he is guilty -- it's still wrong. Always. No matter what. Think clearly.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Anyone can be nominated for the nobel peace prize...
Just because you're nominated, doesn't give you a clean slate.

When you abort babies, you kill innocent lives too! I'd rather give a unborn child the chance to live rather than this murderous scumbag! You can't be for "abortion" and against the death penalty at the same time. The crime that is worse is killing "those" who never had a chance to defend themselves....Stanley Tookie Williams had "many" chances to defend himself. He failed, it's game over man, game over! No reset button for killing 4 innocent people!
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

anti-death makes a good point. I think it is perfectly acceptable to be against the death penalty. But I find it sad that so many folks will raise this cold blooded criminal up to a hero status. Stand up for your beliefs, but don’t stand up for murderers.

And the abortion issue is a whole other can of worms….
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

When Williams took the lives of other individuals he lost his right to life.

He must now ballence the scales of justice and die. He has had many more years than his victims.

NO MORE.
 

stretch to fit justice?

Question for kelly... since we now know that the war on Iraq was fought on false pretenses and for Bush's greed, how many dealth penalties should he be sentenced to now that over 100,000 Iraqis have been killed? I think some people might want to be careful about what they wish for.

In my opinon there is no justice in taking life for life. It doesn't bring the deceased person back and it costs the taxpayers more money than life in prison when you factor in all the expenses with the processes involved. Gandhi said it best, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

"since we now know that the war on Iraq was fought on false pretenses and for Bush's greed"

That's your opinion, that's not a fact. What is a fact is that this monster Williams executed 4 people in cold blood. Why don't you contact their family members for their thoughts on this?
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

"and it costs the taxpayers more money than life in prison when you factor in all the expenses with the processes involved"

So make the process work quicker. I am all about being able to appeal a verdict, but it can get to the point where it is just a waiste of tax payers money.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Actually,

The war was fought on false pretenses, that is a FACT! There weren't, are not, and will not be any WMD's in Iraq unless the US government gives them to the new Iraqi army (You know, just like we did when Saddam was in power). This is a fact. Bush presented Iraq as a theat to the US and our allies based on these alleged WMD's. THEY DID NOT AND DO NOT EXSIST!! Ergo, the war was started on false pretenses. And, just in case my "opinion" isn't good enough, ever heard of the Downing Street Memos???
www.afterdowningstreet.org

Aside from that FACT, Gladiolus brings up another good point. Should we apply the same standard of justice to Bush as you would apply to Mr. Williams? 4 innocent lives vs over 100,000. Bush, and his whole adminstration could certainly be culpable by your own kill and be killed logic for their role in this mass murder of INNOCENT IRAQIS. What is the difference of state sanctioned killing (ie war) vs individual killings? Bottom line is this, it is wrong to kill to advance your goals, whether that is a political agenda or economic gain. I see the Iraq war as being both of these for the Bush Adminstration. The Neo cons have their political ideology to further and VP Cheney's ex company Halliburton certainly seems to be doing quite a lot of very profitable no bid business with the government. But again, maybe I'm just niave or something, so lets bring in the words of someone who'd know, a decorated vetran of the US marine corps, Major General Smedley Butler.

Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

Sooooo... what have we learned? Killing is wrong no matter who does it, except perhaps in very extreme circumstances. Killing for a profit is most certainly wrong. And, although I didn't touch on this much in this reply lets just say that killing to punish someone who kills is the hieght hypocrisy. Anyone to takes completion from the death of another soul after losing a loved one certainly needs some grief counseling and probably their head examined. The cycle of violence will only be broken by forgiveness which is obviously one of the hardest things for a person to do, but essential if they are to truly ever heal. This is hopefully more than your sick minded selves have thought of in a long time and while I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, sometimes you just can't help yourself. :-P
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

But Bush was also nominated for the nobel peace prize, so we should grant him clememncey.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Tookie williams needs to be executed. enough said. The only person Tookie is looking out for is himself. If it took him 10 years to admit to his wrong-doings and you think he's cured, then I have revelation for you...YOU ARE SUCKERS! PT Barnum wrote that a "sucker is born every minute" and by looking at this thread, this is true. Writing children's books does not free you from your past.

As for WMD's, what did Sadamn use to gas the Kurds again? hrmmmmm crayons? The plain fact that you leftists fail to recognize is that Iraq was in constant violation of UN sanctions and the UN basically didn't do jack about it, but issue more sanctions. Oh no, please don't hurt me with your....words! Meanwhile the Oil for Food scandal was going on in the background where nations such as France & Germany were involved. Any doubt why they opposed the war now? Lets not forget that Kojo Annon, Kofi Annon's son was involved too. You know it's funny how leftists will constantly ignore these facts when they're clearly present. You guys would rather defend common street thugs who murder innocents on their own free willthan those brave souls in our military fighting over there serving on a mission. Please all leftists, move to France and see what your socialist reality is really like. Hope you enjoy the bbq in the streets as police are hesistant to enforce law& order because of their weak appeasing government.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah, blah blah. Blah blah, blah blah, blah. Blah: Blah blah blah blah, blah.

Blah blah. Blah!
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I think that the govenor of california should give tookie clemency because he has done things to make up for the mistakes he has made by writing books for teens and he also dissolved the problem between bloods and crips and if the govenor lets him get executed then what's that look like i mean the terminator is the govenor of california and the terminator is a bad influence for kids it shows them to shoot up abandon buildings and ect, and that is my opinon and i am a high school student.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I'm glad high school students aren't running the country. You are justifying bad behavior. A right and a wrong does not make a right. Person commits multiple murders, then 10 years later Person writes children books, therefore Person is innocent because of helpful writing books. That's really bad logic. The guy had 10 years to debate his innocence. His loss for not proving his innocence.

How about I use your logic again on another real situation?

My family lives in a bad neighborhood. Recently people have stolen things from our yard and tried to break into the house. The people who steal these things give a couple bucks to a friend who needs food. Therefore they are INNOCENT & shouldn't be considered for stealing! Flawed logic. If anything, people who steal need a stiff sentence against them, not coddling because they came from a bad neighborhood. Criminals are not the victims!

People who murder need a harsh sentence. Stanley Williams has sealed his fate. That is all.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

"Anonymous Poster" is right, his 'good deads' of recent years don't forgive his crimes. I am glad high schoolers are engaged in thsi topic, I will however disagree with Ashley's conclusion.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I am a troll. The plain and simple fact is I'm too stupid and afraid to put a name to this demented logic. I obviously got schooled by un sandinista's logic so I ramble on about unrelated stuff having to do with socialsit countries. If I had any brains, I'd realize Uncle Sam gave those weapons to Saddam when he was our ally. I just love that photo of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam in the 80's. Oh how the times change. Anyway, thanks for clearing things up for me diligent indymedia commentors. I feel like I've actually learned something and promise not to spew hateful ignorant right wing talking points in the future.

Oh that it were true.....
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

So I hope we can all agree on a few simple guidlines for life. It seems that both sides hold at least these ideas as truth(whatever that means anymore).
1. Do not kill or harm other people
2. Redemption and forgiveness are complicated issues
3. You can only speak to your own experience
Now, if we can at lest all stand on this common ground, or not, then this is my experience of the Stanley Tookie Williams issue.
I am a teacher in Watsonville. I did not grow up in the same world as my students, but I still have get past it and try to teach kids who come from homes where education is not as important because survival is the key. As children mainly of color, they are constantly under attack by society. Their self-esteem and culture are ground to a pulp everyday by the white friendly world we have created. I wish I had the magic words to make everything ok and let them know that it will be alright if they stick through it even though every thing around them screams that they are wrong for being who they are. So many of them are in gangs. I had students who lost crucial family memebers in gang violence last year. Still, they turn to gangs because they feel safe. They feel like someone is watching over them because everywhere else they turn, they only feel alone and attacked. I cannot speak to them because they know I have not been exactly where they are. Stanley Tookie Williams can. It frustrates me that someone who could help my kids in a way that I can't is being put to death. That resource is being taken away from my students who need his leadership for a gang-free life. Wanting his death is vengence, not justice. He is more valuable alive. This is an assassination of a very powerful leader of color. Once again teaching my kids that violence is the answer, death is justice, and speaking up isn't worth it if you aren't white.
If you are so bent on this man's death then I feel sorry for whatever wrongs have been done against you that you could actually lust for someone else's blood. If you are so against the deaths of the people he is convicted of killing, why are you so excited to see more death? I have no hate in my heart. I will not play God as you do and say who is fit to live or die. That is not our job. It should not be part of our justice system.
I am an optomist. I believe in redemption. So did Jesus, if you believe him. I hear a lot of people do. How sad life must be for those who walk around thinking that life never gets any better or that nothing ever changes. If this man dies, then I'm afraid my students will have no one to teach them that they don't have to stay stuck where they are. That there are better lives than the one they are facing.
So, I stand up for Tookie because he is a stand for my students and since that number of people could fit in a small utility closet, I find his existence worth while.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

It is not white society that is plaguing black america, but the mentality that has influenced african american culture to "play the victim". Programs such as affirmative action, racial quotas for the workplace divide people and cultures. If we are all created equal, why do certain races need benefits over others?

The answer is simple, No race deserves more than another. Yet, we find ourselves repeating in this loop over and over again. Tookie williams is not a vicitim of racism. He killed 4 people, 1 white person, and an asian family of 3. He wasn't fighting an injustice against the black man purportrated by the white man because he butchered an asian family.

The longer you keep Tookie Williams alive, the more you are promoting bad behavior. That's right! Kill 4 people and get nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize! Criminals often fake signs of mental rehabilitation nearing their execution. It's a common tactic because they don't want to die.

As for the poster above me, the teacher from watsonvillie, as much as I respect your opinion, you are an apologist. People should not apologize for being white or for living in the western world. Non-issue Racism has nothing to do with Tookie williams, it's a non issue. I have little remorse for those who harm innocent people. I am against the death of the innocent, not against of the death for those who would do harm to the innocent. I've said it once and I'll say it again, CRIMINALS ARE NOT VICTIMS! Homocide murderers do NOT need CODDLING! You live by your actions, you die by your actions. I like seeing justice served, verdict was given, appeal was given due time, criminal was unable to prove his case innocence after guilt, therefore, must suffer the consequences. I disagree with you, Tookie williams is more useful to us dead than alive. He can whistle the same tune, but at heart, he's still himself, no better after all he's been through, but just playing an elaborate ruse on you, to persuade you to save him pitiful life.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Here Here!
I agree with ‘Anonymous Poster’ (it would be swell if people at least used an alias however…) that it is nonsense to make this man into some kind of anti-racist hero. He was a cold blooded killer plain and simple, and while I understand that there are people who are opposed to the death penalty, I think they are shooting themselves in the foot by defending this man.

The teacher from Watsonville assumes that “As children mainly of color, they are constantly under attack by society. Their self-esteem and culture are ground to a pulp everyday by the white friendly world we have created.? Baloney. Its this kind of talk that has allowed and accepted our communities to be taken over by gangs. Thankfully, this is a minority opinion.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Someone told me today that granting clemency to Mr. Williams would be the "Christian Thing To Do."

Wrong.

The Christian Thing to do would be to forgive him of his sins, and to execute him under the law. The precedent for this is the story of Calvary, in which one of the two thieves was forgiven, yet he was still sufferred death by crucifixion. No one can cite 'Christian Ideals' in this case, and then reject those same ideals when it comes to abortion. You can't have it both ways.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Since you hide behind your annonominity to attack Tookie Williams in a way that is so institutionally racist that is almost not worth commenting on (why do I feed the trolls?) I feel obligated to do a little attack myself.
You're a coward. You hide behind ideas of equality and seem to believe that racism is not a problem in this society. BULLSHIT! The fact is white europeans RAPED, BRUTALIZED, SHAMED, and utterly DESTROYED entire cultures, religions, societal orders and whole peoples in the worldwide imperialistic pursuit of filthy dirty money. Colonialism, Imperialism, its had many names over the years but plain and simple its called GREED, and it dictated what those who have (and continue to have) power and potentially violent power over others do and say via their institutions and governments.
We are a product of our history and until IDIOTS like you recognize the great injustice done on this massive level, healing can never begin. Believe it or not we don't all have the same opportunties that some of us have in this culture, and to expect everyone to be able to compete on an equal footing is outrageous. We come from different histories and experiences, both in a larger cultural sense and an individual manner, and these differences need to be taken into account. We aren't all equal. It's a fact. I wouldn't want to be considered the equal of this sick racist coward who continues to post annonymously because he (cause this is a man, a white man posting this nonsense) knows that to say such things in public innappropriate. He even hides his identity from the online community he seeks to be a part of. He is racist, perhaps even unintentionally so, but extremely institutionally racist nevertheless.

Oh, on a final note. You mention this :
"I have little remorse for those who harm innocent people. I am against the death of the innocent, not against of the death for those who would do harm to the innocent." Then take a stand with me "brother" and condemn the illegal, agressive war of occupation that has killed countless thousands of innocent Iraqis. How about it? Where are you speaking out against this instutionalized mass murder of innocent civilians we now call war and occupation. You seem to fail to mention this important difference in killing innnocents. Or is it ok cause they're not us. They don't look like us, talk like us, believe everything we do, so just like our colonial masters I'm sure you think its OK what our Troops are doing there. To think that we could bring democracy to Iraq when we don't effectively have it here is yet another example of the racist "white man's burden".

People like you are what's wrong with this world. Slave revolt..... OUT!
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

am pretty confident that the people tookie killed in cold blood never knew his name or anything else about him, so why are u complaining about people posting anonymously on the net? Tookie deserves to die a slow and agonizing death.

Lets have justice for the victims
==================================

Albert Owens
Yen-Yi Yang
Tsai-Shai Yang
Ye-Chen Lin
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Los Angeles County District Attorney's Response to Clemency Petition

da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/swilliams.pdf
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Debra J. Saunders, who has followed the case for years, debunks the Tookie sympathizers' mythology:

The whole "redemption" line is a joke. As Williams' former prosecutor Robert Martin once told me, redemption requires an admission of guilt, facing up to what you did and expressing remorse. Williams has done none of the above, yet newspaper editorial pages (including The Chronicle's) and various do-gooders (including some Ninth U.S. Court of Appeals judges) have been pushing for the governor to grant Tookie clemency.

That would turn the whole concept of clemency on its ear.

Let me stipulate: While I support the death penalty, I can respect those who oppose it. But I can't respect those who lionize the most violent thugs as if they are prize sages. My advice to the anti-execution crowd -- and I have no doubt it will be ignored -- is to find some poor schlub who killed in a panic and doesn't belong on death row, and seek clemency for that person.

Don't put a cold-blooded killer on a pedestal. Don't denounce a government killing as barbaric while you laud a cold-blooded thug. And don't ask for clemency for a killer who won't fess up to his crimes.

Williams' co-author, Barbara Becnel, told the Los Angeles Times, "What Stan presents is hope that they, too, can change. He is worth far more to society alive than dead."

Wrong. He is worth more to society dead. The message from the Tookie-philes is that you can kill innocent people and be a star. An execution says you can kill innocent people and pay the price.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Dang, folks need to post with a name. There are too many Anonymous posters in this thread!

I did chuckle a bit when I read this however: “The fact is white europeans RAPED, BRUTALIZED, SHAMED, and utterly DESTROYED entire cultures, religions, societal orders and whole peoples in the worldwide imperialistic pursuit of filthy dirty money.?

Yes imperialism of the new world was bad. We got it. Do you want to now make the argument that because Tookie was black it was ok for him to kill 4 innocent people? 3 of which weren’t even ‘white devils’ you seem to despise with such vigor. Are you going to be so ignorant as to think that your world view and acceptance of cold blood murder is going to make this a better place?!
Time and time again the imperialism defense comes up. I can almost always count on it to pop up regardless of what topic we are discussing. Using that same logic, are all minorities who end up as functioning members of society ‘uncle toms’? Does wanting to get gangs out of our streets, and the murders who have lead them, make us racists?

No, it does not. I would say the racist comment would be the one that excuses crimes because of someone’s skin color.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

And for the love…..stop calling anyone who disagrees with you a ‘troll.’ A troll is a person who disagrees with you. If you can’t discuss a topic like a reasonable individual, don’t go blaming someone else for your hot head.

I love that Santa Cruz Indymedia allows folks to discuss the articles. It may be the only reason I keep coming back! If a lot of these articles were allowed to go unchallenged, their would be a travesty.
 

People's Clemency Hearing 10AM Dec 8th

I attended the teach-in and it was a success. The room was packed and Rainbow Theater gave a kick-ass performance.

There will be a rally presumably before the meeting where Arnold S. will consider Clemency for Tookie Williams. This will happen on the Capitol steps in Sacramento from 10AM-12noon on Dec 8, 2005.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Quick thought: Maybe Mr. Williams would not have had to write all of those books or defuse the "situation" between 2 rival gangs or talk kids out of joining gangs if he had never helped form the world's most violent gang in the first place.

As some others have said, he had his chance to porve his innocence. He got his appeals. Now it's time to pay up.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

"world's most violent gang"

depends on how you define a gang... I purport that the "world's most violent gang" would unequivically be the US military...
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

The reason "huh?" could care less about the formation of the crips or any other gang for that mater, is that he most likely comes from a lily white neighborhood.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I think Tookie should actually be freed from the hell of prison and be able to walk the streets as a free man! For many years whit folks have killed and walked freely to have live thier lives! The evidence shows he is not guilty! But since you want to say he was tried by a jury of his peers.....
Why was O.J. found not guilty of the murders but made to responsible in another court? He was found not guilty remember!
White people have gotten away with any and everything for years! Killing and raping and what ever else they have desired....Remember Emmit Till? I can tell by the responses that a lot of the Kill Tookie wishers are white hateful demons who are just mirrors of their evil grandfathers who brought innocent people from thier country to work and build this bullshit of a country where they have all the rights! And if he did SOOOOO what! My skin has to bear this light color becasue of some white demon who wanted to please his flesh!!! Get these old ass white men who even confess of thier killings and put them to death!! LET TOOKIE LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

john & ken have posted images of the victims. For those supporting tookie. Take a good look.

*****Warning very graphic************

www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim1adweb.jpg

www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim2adweb.jpg

www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3adweb.jpg
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Trina, what in the world are you talking about? Do you have a clue as to how the legal system works?
In fact, the incredible nonsense of your post also leads me to believe you don’t know how schools and libraries work either.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

i believe tookie should live because being incarcerated for 24 years by then you would realize the wrongful things you have done. i believe tookie is innocent and for him to sit patiently behind bars he should continue to sit there and encourage and educate the youth!!!!
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

"I think Tookie should actually be freed from the hell of prison and be able to walk the streets as a free man! For many years whit folks have killed and walked freely to have live thier lives! The evidence shows he is not guilty! But since you want to say he was tried by a jury of his peers....."

Did Charles Manson go free? What about the OKC bomber? Both were white! Nope, Your logic has been debunked. Quit making this a race issue, you only show your stupidity by playing the blame game.

"depends on how you define a gang... I purport that the "world's most violent gang" would unequivically be the US military..."

Scuse me? The very people who protect your freedoms from an asskicking & enslavement from the pure evil in this world is nothing more but a gang? The only reason you have freedoms in this country is because of the people who protect those rights aka the military.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

"The only reason you have freedoms in this country is because of the people who protect those rights aka the military."

No, the only thing they protect are what Parenti calls the "fifth freedom" the right to pillage, rob, rape and decimate foriegn lands and peoples of their resources and labor. The US military are nothing but hired guns of the rich, they protect no freedoms in this country. All the freedom's we have in the US were gained through hard fought struggles of the multitude of workers, and the "under-classes." The precious few freedom's left are quickly being stripped away by legislation such as the Patriot Act, and other short-sighted laws...

And FUCK you nationalism. People across the world are starting to unite, not about borders, but about justice and survival.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

"No, the only thing they protect are what Parenti calls the "fifth freedom" the right to pillage, rob, rape and decimate foriegn lands and peoples of their resources and labor. The US military are nothing but hired guns of the rich, they protect no freedoms in this country. All the freedom's we have in the US were gained through hard fought struggles of the multitude of workers, and the "under-classes." The precious few freedom's left are quickly being stripped away by legislation such as the Patriot Act, and other short-sighted laws..."

I think you're living in another reality opposite of which most people live in. The military protects no freedoms in this country? You are on crack. They are the only reason you have freedom since they protect your right to speak. Without them, you would have no freedom at all. Think you can "defend freedom" with words? That's a load of crap and you know it. If you hate this country so much, please leave, no one is forcing you to stay in America. Do yourself a favor and move to North Korea instead of bitching about America's oppression of everything. Why don't you start bitching about france oppressing muslims or something?
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

geoff's only argument said the government was lying....therefore he must be for the death penalty if the allegations were true....my expectation is geoff wouldn't put anyone to death...not even for murdering his loved ones...our system isn't perfect...but it is our system....Tookie was convicted of murdering four innocents...and should pay with his life as the law demands...if not...be assured all those on death row will have new revelations, start publishing children's books etc....however...since our governor has granted parole to more violent felons than Gray Davis ever did...my guess is he will be given clemency
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I incorage all my brothers to burn LA to the ground if they execute Tookie.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I BELIEVE TOOKIE CHANGED HIS WAYS BECAUSE HE IS ENCOURAGING OTHERS NOT TO BE IN A GANG BECAUSE HE DOES NOT WANT US KIDS TO END UP LIKE HE DID. WE LOVE YOU TOOKIE!
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Tookie has been denied clemency, that is all.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

This is un-American. Every leader of the KKK wouldn't be given the same treatment. Nothing be a double standard.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

yes perk its a double standard, but the answer is not to let tookie go but to go after the klansmen and deliver the same punishment.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

I am so sick of these people pulling the racist card over the execution of Tookie. Grow up and realize that this man is a murderer and now he must die for his actions. It is sickening to hear "I incourage all my brothers to burn LA if Tookie is excecuted". If this man that wrote this garbage could even spell at a 3rd grade level, I am positive he wouldnt have said something so foolish. Pay your price like a man Tookie!!!!!
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

The official time of death was 12:36
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Maybe all you all should just read the "letters to the youth" he wrote. That should answer all your questions. even if he murdered all those people, we should now remember what he was trying to teach the people. not only us black people. "We`re heading to another form of slavery" as 2Pac said. "Stop complaining and start claiming" RIP "Tookie"
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

good bye tookie, hope u ended up where u belong
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

A lot of "red herring" issues were dragged into Tookie Williams' appeal for clemency -- everything from his race to quality of his trial to his value to society. It sure looked to me like an attempt to cloud the real issue. Murder. The best justice system humanity has ever come up with has found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Governor Schwartzenegger's only grounds for granting clemency would be a mistake or injustice in the trial process. He could only pardon Williams if the trial was unfair, and not because Williams' life may have had value to society. The responsibility of deciding to grant clemency or not is a HEAVY one, and if Governor Schwartzenegger granted it because Tookie had turned his life around, we would have every criminal and his grandma writing books from prison:
"Don't Throw Your Kiddies Off A Bridge Like I Did",
"Don't Tie A Black Man To The Bumper Of Your Truck And Drag Him Behind You Til His Body Falls Apart Like I Did",
"Don't Kill Your Eight-Months Pregnant Wife And Throw Her Into San Francisco Bay Like I Did"

Even if Williams' change was genuine, he must make restitution for what he did. If our little kids steal candy, we at least make them give it back or pay for it. If you steal someone's life, if you force their future to cease to exist, what can you do as restitution but to make your own future an absolute zero as well??
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Tookie has paid the price or what he has down in his life. The liberals on here want the people to believe they are not responsible for their own action, but rather to blame society, in the deaths of Owen and the Yangs. Its not tookie's fault the devil made him pull the trigger, yea right.

They cannot comprehend that each person is possesses a free will and will create his or her own salvation or damnation. Certainly a society can influence but it does not control that person to pull the the trigger against a fellow human being. Tookie took delight in being gangster just like many youngsters are doing today. Now he has paid the price for his actions. Let him stand as an example that if you sin against your brothers and sisters you will be punished.

Tookie is now the 12th person to be executed for his crimes in the state of california. Why only twelve when thousands are murdered each year. Thousands are sitting in prison and thousands are being released back to prey on us. Why build prisons for those that for all that is right should be lined up to the chopping block? The money invested in the feeding and housing of slim should be better spent on the honest people still struggling to make it.

Of course the average joes and janes do not make the headlines that politicians crave for. It was the common people that reintroduced the death penalty, yet pseudo-enlightened radicals, anarchist, and politicians would have everyone believe that they know what is best for society. If they care not for the death penalty put it to a vote of the people. The same people that do not have the luxury of 24-hour, seven days a week security. The same people that do not hide behind their books dictating what some Marxist theorist says how society should function. Let those that deal with the real deal day in day out make the decision how to punish murderers, rapists, and thieves.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Tookie recieved an unfair trial.First of all,his jury was not a jury of his peers. 10 of them were white,1 phillipino and the other a latino.In our goverments efforts to provide a fair trial, they didnt even bother to include 1 black on the jury. Secoundly, when has the testimony of criminals (who testified in hopes of cutting deals or gaining celebrity) ever been substantial evidents.No one knows who murdered those poor people, but you cant just go re-creating history,charging and executing innocent people for these crimes. The family should know how it feels to lose a loved one and not provide the ammunition to murder him.As far as his founding of the Crips goes,that is totaly irrelevant.It was wrong,as he stated in his interview with CNN,but very irrelevent.Tookie took many steps to reverse his creation(novels,visits,speeches)but a mistake is a mistake.Who are we to judge people? For all you suppposed Bible beaters ,God says vengenance is his and we are wrong when we seek our own vengenance.So if Tookie has a spot in hell, so do you.From a 16 year old girl
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

My pie in the sky fantasy:

Negotiate a fair deal with aboriginal tribes in Ozland's remotest outback to rent some of their land, round up all the nigger-haters and cracker-bashers, dump them on the land and let them have their way with each other. When they've killed each other off, sell all their assets and give the money as the rent payment to the aboriginals.

Le Sigh. If I ruled the world...
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Me, this might seem like a boring read, but if you bear with me, you can decide for yourself what you think of the fairness of juries.

The government doesn't pick juries in trials. Attorneys do.

In a criminal trial, the attorney that represents welfare of The People (you and me) is called the District Attorney. The person accused of a crime gets a free defense from an attorney called the Public Defender or hires their own attorney. Both attorneys pick the jury from a pool of people. This pool is made of registered voters and licensed drivers over 18 summoned at random from the area near where the trial will be held. The attorneys for each side have the right to veto the other side's choice a limited number of times (or some trials would never start). When it becomes known that a potential juror has any connection at all with any attorney or defendent, that person isn't allowed to serve.

As far as Williams' jury, is it fair to say that black people are Tookie Williams' peers? Most black people I see respected the law, work hard, pay their taxes and do their best live good lives. At least that's what I see around me. A jury of Tookie Williams' peers would have to be made up of gang members (black or white), but I'm guessing that few are registered to vote and the adults with driver's licenses would rather not serve on a jury. You can't pick the trial you'll serve on, serving can be boring, and the pay is LOUSY.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

For those who feel he deserved to die and that he was guilty beyond reasonable doubt, I would like to present you with an important challenge.

Instead of forming an opinion to end a life based on what the media presents, or statements by governmental officals, or anyone that already has formed their opinion. Search out the court documents, they are online, and read them from beginning to end. Form your own opinion regarding the information you find in those, do not base it on the ruling of the court base it on the evidence supplied within them.

Keep in mind, he was never charged with being a member of the crips. That information is irrelevent to the charges and conviction and as such should not be used for the determination.

The charges are that he murdered 4 people.

The goal to determine not only guilt beyond question, but also that the proceedings were carried out fairly and with justice. When reading the appeals,that were denied pay attention to the reason for the request, the evidence supplied, if that evidence is valid or not, don't base your opinion on the denial but do read the reason for the denial. Decide if the denial is appropriate based on the evidence set forth or not. Allowing it, allows the case to be reheard, denial allows the case as originally determined to continue with no change and the evidence hold no baring.

Keep in mind while doing so that this is about justice, and could be applied to anyone's case even someone you are friends with or yourself. Because how our courts handle these things are not exclusive to just him, the same can be applied to any of us, in fact deviation from past rulings that are allowed in this case, form a precident that can and will be used from this time forward on any case.

Also consider that justice not only serves to remove the guilty party from society so they can't harm others, it's a means to ensure that the person who commited the crime is who pays for it, if it's not the person who committed the crime but the execution is carried out, it's murder, and finally for the family of the victim. Imagine the pain the family would endure knowing that the person executed for the crime, was innocent. They would live with the guilt of of that murder being carried out in their name.

Now go read and decide armed with information unbiased by the media or either side and form your own opinion. This way you can ensure that the opinion you voice is YOUR opinion and can feel confident that your statements are based on your knowledge and investigation...rather than voicing someone else's and risk looking idiotic if theirs is found outrageusly wrong.

Good luck :)
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Two reasons why I ask that people do that.

This is a very controversial subject, there are two very strong sides on this.

One side is that he was proven beyond a doubt guilty and deserved to die, by our courts, they examined everything thorougly to determine this, and that in itself is sufficent proof.

The other side says that he was innocent, that the members of the legal system took steps to create evidence of guilt and the courts acted inappropriately in responding to evidence, biasing the case towards guilt.

If there is any chance that the argument for innocence is valid, then we have a nearly untouchable faction that has the power to put someone to death, acting on whatever agenda they please.

Before you say ....that type of thing could never happen I have faith in our justice system. Read over the case of Rolando Cruz. He was convicted and sentanced to death for a murder, twice and each time the surpeme court reverse the sentance in view of insufficent evidence, and sending it for retrial.

Eyewitness accounts that Rolando made statements indicating guilt, were strong evidence in the case. The eyewitnesses were law enforcement personnel. The 3rd trial, one of them stated doubt in regards to his memories of the event, on investigation it was found that not only did he not witness this, he wasn't even in the same state at the time. 7 members of the justice system were indicted in this..later let go and Cruz acquitted, but lost 11 years of his life to prison on death row.

To add fuel to the fire..a couple of months after the initial conviction a murderer confessed to the crime off the record..he refused to do so on the record unless given immunity of the death sentance. No one would do so, instead the public was lead to believe that Cruz was without doubt guilty. And believed it completely, having total faith in all members of our legal system, until the witness confessed to not witnessing it.

In November this year ..20 years after Cruz's conviction the murder serving out sentancing for 2 other murders was indicted in this one, the evidence includes DNA testing along with enough that the prosecuter feels the case is rock solid this time and Justice will be done, asking that the public understand the length of time it took to bring these charges but this time they wanted to make sure that a conviction was competely just.
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

Tookie did not deserve to die! prison is there to put the people who are acting up in so that they can find themselves, not to be killed . Tookie spent his days making children books to keep them from making the same mistakes as him the state of California is wrong for killing him
 

Vollzug der Todesstrafe: Stanley Tookie Williams wurde umbegracht!

Vollzug der Todesstrafe: Stanley Tookie Williams wurde umbegracht!
at.indymedia.org/newswire/display/54825
 

Re: Save Tookie Williams Teach-In Nov 30th!

i belive stanley tookie william should be put to rest once a killer alaways a killer
 

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