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Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague, the Netherlands, gave its advisory opinion on the Apartheid Wall in Palestine on July 9th. In light of the recent opinion from the ICJ, the Israeli government is trying to manipulate the truth and disguise the colonial foundation of its racist apartheid policy. It has depicted a decision by its own High Court to move 30km of the Apartheid Wall as a Palestinian “victory?, but Palestinians see how, on the contrary, this decision validates Israel’s claim that the Wall is solely a security measure and how it states that the Wall can be built on Palestinian land.

The Palestinian Grassroots Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign calls on all people to remain critical of the ICJ opinion. Help bring the Palestinian grassroots struggle against the Apartheid Wall to the forefront of global action and amplify the claims of those resisting on the ground:

Tear Down the Apartheid Wall!
Stop the Occupation!
Sanctions and Boycott on Apartheid Israel!

Audio: Jamil Dakwar of Human Rights Watch speaks about the recent decision in the ICJ

[ International Court of Justice (ICJ) I Apartheid Wall I Stop The Wall ]
The International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague, the Netherlands, will give its advisory opinion on the Apartheid Wall in Palestine on July 9th. In light of the upcoming opinion from the ICJ, the Israeli government is trying to manipulate the truth and disguise the colonial foundation of its racist apartheid policy. It has depicted a decision by its own High Court to move 30km of the Apartheid Wall as a Palestinian “victory?, but Palestinians see how, on the contrary, this decision validates Israel’s claim that the Wall is solely a security measure and how it states that the Wall can be built on Palestinian land.

The Palestinian Grassroots Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign calls (.pdf) on all people to remain critical of the ICJ opinion, whatever the outcome. Help bring the Palestinian grassroots struggle against the Apartheid Wall to the forefront of global action and amplify the claims of those resisting on the ground:

Tear Down the Apartheid Wall!
Stop the Occupation!
Sanctions and Boycott on Apartheid Israel!

Four months of court deliberations have prompted international political immobility, but Palestinian resistance is growing. Whole villages have risen up to stop the Apartheid Wall and the devastating repression of the Israeli Occupation. It is up to us to resist this propaganda and support the Palestinian struggle against the Occupation and Bantustanisation of Palestine, land annexation, destruction and expulsion of Palestinian communities. The world has defeated apartheid in South Africa – it cannot tolerate it in Palestine.

Related links:

Call to action on 9/10 July and inform the Campaign about your initiatives.

IMC-UK feature on the opening of the hearings | Protests in Palestine during the opening of the hearings. Latest News on the Apartheid Wall at StopTheWall.org | Background info on the ICJ
 
 


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Comments

Israel should be allowed to protect its citizens from Palestininan violence

It's not a Wall (unless you define the barrier by how it looks for 2% of its path) It's not apartheid (as there are over a million Israeli Arabs on the Israel side of the barrier) and its not Palestinian land. An occupation means one country occupies with military force another country. There is no Palestine. The "Palestinian" Arabs have rejected offers for an independent state of Palestine 14 times since 1937. If Israel is "occupying" Palestine--then when was Palestine founded? What are its borders? Where is its capitol? What kind of government does it have? Who are its leaders? What kind of currency does it issue? Who is its UN representative?

The ICJ ignored that Israel needs to protect itself from the 20,000 attacks from Palestinian terror groups in the last 3 and a half years.

The Barrier is saving lives. Israel's high court ruled the barrier is legal and its sole purpose is to stop the violence against Israeli citizens. The ICJ never even took that issue up. Read the dissenting opinion of the American judge at the ICJ.
 

Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

Talking about Wall built by the Terrorist State
The Wall is Apartheid! It is wall much more than 2%, as you can relate to its map before posting false statements. It is built on Palestinian Land, related to as "Palestinian Occupied Territories" in the same institution that brought Zionist State to existence on the Palestinian land in 1948.

The Jewish-State, is building its wall on the Palestinian territories by almost daily destroying Palestinian owned homes and agricultural land "mostly filled with Olives" outside "Jewish State" representing Peace!

That same Jewish Terrorist State is responsible for death of 5 times as many Palestinian children than Hamas & Islamic Jihad are together of Israeli children.

Never did Palestinian groups stop Israeli pregnant woman from getting to Hospital, and enjoy the new born dying in front of them, as did Israeli Terrorist Forces number of Times!

My home in Akka, from which my family was expelled by Jewish terrorist acts of massacres then, and Jewish rejection of our Right of Return since, given by the same institution that brought the Zionist State to existence, is Israeli "Court of Justice"! Please define justice coming from court built ILLEGALY!
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

Please. There are two states in the former British Mandate of Palestine. One is Israel. The other is Jordan. There is no "Palestine". There is only unajudicated land between the two. Israel will take what it needs and wants, and the rest can go to Jordan. If the Arabs in the territories don't like living in Jordan, they are free to migrate to any country that will have them. You can't occupy land that belongs to no one. All the whining in the world does not change the facts.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

>> Please. There are two states in the former British Mandate of Palestine. One is Israel.

This is like saying that there was no 'country' when the europeons invaded the 'americas' and took what they wanted.

I believe that Israelis have a right to survive. I believe that Palestinians have a right to survive.
 

Arab Response

The 26-foot-high concrete and razor wire barrier down the hill from Najeh Abu Mukh's house cuts him off from relatives and the West Bank.


But the Arab Israeli gas-station worker said he doesn't mind, because the controversial Israeli barrier has done something years of failed peace talks have not: It has taken the bloody Israeli-Palestinian conflict away from his home.

Like many Arab Israeli citizens who live in northern Israel along the security barrier erected earlier this year, Abu Mukh agrees with the Israeli government that it's beneficial. The Israeli military claims the barrier has cut suicide attacks coming from the now-enclosed northern West Bank by 90 percent.

Abu Mukh questioned the International Court of Justice ruling Friday that condemned it as illegal and inhumane.

"I'm wondering if the judges ever have been here or lived here and understand the real reason for its construction," the 30-year-old asked, relaxing on his front porch with a cup of sweet Arabic coffee. "If not, they should listen and not judge."
 

If anything, way down deep, its Jewish land

reply to Shadi Fadda: you wrote:

"(The Barrier) is built on Palestinian Land, related to as "Palestinian Occupied Territories" in the same institution that brought Zionist State to existence on the Palestinian land in 1948."

BECKY: Do you mean the United Nations resolution in which the nations of the world voted to establish Israel in allocated portions of the British Mandate of Palestine? Hmmmmmm. Seems to me that that deal was completely rejected by Palestinian Arabs and all their Arab friends. The Palestinian Arabs were so busy trying to drive Jews into the sea they "forgot" to establish their own state.

So now you say the unallocated portions of the former British Mandate of Palestine became "Palestinian lands?" when? How? By whom?

Israel was founded on May 14, 1948.
The USA was founded on July 4, 1776
What is the date of the founding of the country of "Palestine"?

Oh, and here's a funny thing about olives. They require very little tending. You can pretty much come for about a 6 week period per year and harvest olives. That's about it. I'm sure the IDF can open a few gates.

You wrote: "That same Jewish Terrorist State is responsible for death of 5 times as many Palestinian children than Hamas & Islamic Jihad are together of Israeli children."

BECKY: Putting aside for the moment the issue of Arab violence, lets look at the relative death tolls of children among Palestinians and Israelis.
You are correct in reporting that the overall death figures are much higher for Palestinians than for Israelis. Last I checked, it was a little over 2 to 1.

Among Palestinians killed, 11.7% are youth aged 15 or younger. Among Israelis killed 57.5% are youth aged 15 or under. This data suggests that the Palestinian terrorists are deliberately targeting civilians and children while the Israelis kill children accidently. Even more telling is data on the gender of the dead.

Among Palestinian, 2.8% of the deaths are women. Among Israeli deaths, 25% are women.

The IDF has a strict policy of minimizing civilian causalties in all situations. Yes, they do break the rules sometimes. But not often, and if they do they are punished.

But analyzing the death stats reveals more about who is the terrorist and who is the defender than you probably would care to admit.

YOU WROTE: "Never did Palestinian groups stop Israeli pregnant woman from getting to Hospital, and enjoy the new born dying in front of them, as did Israeli Terrorist Forces number of Times!"

BECKY: Recently a terrorist group in Gaza shot a pregnant woman to death point blank and then killed her four daughters who were also in the car. But you are right, they didn't try to stop her from taking an ambulance to a hospital to deliver since she was already dead.

Putting that aside. Palestinian terrorist groups can and do use ambulances to transport weapons and wanted criminals across into Israel and around through war zones. The IDF has learned by experience they must check everyone and everything before allowing them to cross borders.

Let me remind the readers that there are 3.4 million Palestinians on the West Bank and they have a very high birth rate---one of the highest in the world. How many of these babies are born in taxicabs? The IDF checkpoints are there to save lives, not to inconvenience women in labor on the way to the hospital.

With the new barrier, there should be a lot less checkpoints.

Finally, you wrote: "My home in Akka, from which my family was expelled by Jewish terrorist acts of massacres then, and Jewish rejection of our Right of Return since, given by the same institution that brought the Zionist State to existence, is Israeli "Court of Justice"! Please define justice coming from court built ILLEGALY!

BECKY: I'm not sure what you mean by "court built Illegally." The Israeli Supreme Court was founded by the State of Israel which legally came into existance through a UN resolution in 1948. It may not be your cup of tea, but it is a legal court. As legal as any court in any country can be anyway.

Did you are your family apply to re-enter Israel?
Did you file an application with the immigration dept. of Israel? They have repatriated families like yours for dozens of years. 170,000 Palestinians have re-entered Israel and were granted citizenship (without religious conversion required) after having filed, been interviewed, presented documents such as deeds, birth certificates, or even mail received at an address in pre-1948 Israel are considered proof of residency.

If you are telling the truth (and I am not sure that you are) then what probably happened is you never cooperated with the "Zionist authorities" and spurned applying for re-entry in any formal way. Your Arab leaders encouraged you to sit in camps in poverty and misery, didn't they?
 

The Jewish People came from Judea

Reply to Sophie: You wrote: "This is like saying that there was no 'country' when the europeons invaded the 'americas' and took what they wanted."

BECKY: When the Europeans "invaded" the Americas they did not return to a land where their people had built its most holy site. They did not return to a land that was filled with archeological relics marking the presence of their ancestors (in Gaza and the West Bank too!) They did not return to a land their ancestors had been driven from in 135AD by Roman conquerors. They did not return to a land which had a continuous presence of Europeans living there for the past 3,300 years.

You are right Sophie. Its nothing like America.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

>>You are right Sophie. Its nothing like America.

This is not what I said of course.

To speak about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict so adamantly is a distraction. The real threat to the state of Israel is not the Palastinians (Philistines) but the surrounding Arab and Persian states.

I was in Israel and the West Bank. Israel seeks to control the West Bank not primarily from the suicide bombings but to protect it's eastern border.
 

the Arabs still want to kill the Jews

Second reply to Sophie: I agree. Israel has to concern itself with attacks from a lot more countries than the Palestinians.
 

Congress calls fence "response to terror"

Folks: The 60-page ruling of the ICJ only mentioned the 20,000 terror attacks twice, and then only in summerizing the Israeli position, but without validating that Israel put up the fence to stop the attacks. Here is what the US House of Representatives did:


House of Representatives Deplores "Misuse" of ICJ in 361-45 Vote

By an overwhelming vote of 361 to 45 (with 13 voting present), the House of Representatives Thursday passed a resolution deploring the "misuse" of the UN's International Court of Justice (ICJ) and its recent advisory opinion that Israel's security fence is illegal and should be dismantled. The resolution described Israel's security fence as a "response to an ongoing campaign of terror" and recognized that the barrier "has resulted in a dramatic decline in the number of successful terrorist attacks." The resolution also strongly reaffirmed America's commitment to Israel's security and backed Israel's right to self-defense. (AIPAC)
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

45 legislators voted against a bill denouncing the International Court of Justice’s July 9 ruling against Israel’s West Bank security barrier, the largest nay vote on a pro-Israel congressional measure in recent years.

When did we start using the US congress as a litmus test for 'right'. This is the same body that voted unlimited spending for the Iraqi war and other debacles.

This is a campaign issue and the majority of congress is going to roll over dead when it comes to bucking support for Israel in an election year.
 

Re:Terrorists are criminals

And as Palestinians openly engage in terrorism it has proven its self an out law state and not capable of self rule. above and beyond that fact, Palestine is not a real country. is occupies Israeli land. which nullifies their claim to being at war. this makes the p.l.o. and Palestinians collaborators international criminals.
 

Palestine is not a country--never was either

Reply to Sophie: While I'm sure you jumped for joy to hear the ICJ's ruling condemning Israel for trying to protect its citizens from attack--consider this--- MOST of the countries in the UN voted AGAINST having the ICJ even consider the issue of Israel's security fence. In fact, ALL of the world's democracies voted against having the ICJ consider the case.

By contrast, ALL of the world's military dictatorships voted in favor of having the ICJ consider the legality of the fence.

Look who you are allying yourself with? Brutal, cutthroat military dictatorships with abysmal human rights records and vicious anti-semitic attitudes.

And you blame the USA congress???????
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

I’ve got no reason to jump for joy over any part of this situation at or to labor under the illusion that the world’s ‘democracies' (a description of what’s wrong with today’s ‘democracies’ would take pages) would support Israel or the Palestinians to if it didn’t serve their own purposes.

It would seem that the UN has reason to counter the US (and its allies) at this point in time.

Your statement:

“And you blame the USA congress????????

is misleading. I don’t 'blame' the US congress, I just don’t give them any credence as an assembly with clean hands. Please try to refrain from twisting other people’s statements. By approaching this with an ‘either your with us or agin’ us’ attitude discussion becomes impossible.

The ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, pure and defiled, the sacred and the profane, is very important in Judaism. To say that everything the Israeli government does is ‘right’ and everything done by its enemies is ‘wrong’ defies logic.
 

How about some facts people?

Reply to Sophie: You wrote: "To say that everything the Israeli government does is ‘right’ and everything done by its enemies is ‘wrong’ defies logic."

BECKY: I don't think I have done this. I try to research my points of view, address the issues on specific points, and refute arguments. What most people do, who are critical of Israel, is throw out a bunch of emotional statements unsupported by facts.

For instance, in the original article this thread springs from it says " the Israeli government is trying to manipulate the truth and disguise the colonial foundation of its racist apartheid policy".

Note, they do not say what "truth" the Israelis are trying to "manipulate." They make a highly disputable claim that the Israelis are "colonialists" and accuse them of "racist apartheid". I think this shows the authors to be a bunch of anti-semites, though I'm sure they would recoil at that accusation.

This doesn't mean I am saying that "everything the Israeli govt. does is right". I am simply responding point by point to the lies and misinformation written here.

I think its shameful the way some of the writers here engage in Jew-bashing while at the same time they consider themselves to be so moral and sanctimonious.
 

How about some facts, Becky?

Actually, Becky you are PERPETUATING the lies and misinformation written here on this site.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

It's not inaccurate to say that Sharon intends to wall in the remaining Palestinian land (about 12% of what the British granted in 1948).

This wall snakes through the area to the east of Israel's border in order to 1) protect the settlements and 2) to thwart any growth (economic, military) of the burgeoning Palesinian population.

This is not unlike what happened in Texas. Lucas Alaman, the Mexican secretary of state said "Where others send invading armies, [the Americans] send their colonists".

According to historian Benny Morris (and declassified IDF documents) Operation Hiram was an intentional 'cleansing' (official document word) of the 700,000 palestinians in 1947 (using methods involving rape and murder) in order to establish the Israeli state. This was up to a point condoned by Ben-Gurion who lost his stomach to complete the job. As much as it pains me to say this, Morris has stated in a Ha'aretz interview that it is only a question of time until all the Palestinians are removed from the land; that this would be the logical extension of what was begun in 1947 and the only way for the Israeli state to survive.
 

Israel has not and will not uproot the Palestinians

Sophie: I don't think Benny Morris is a good source. The 650,000 Palestinian ARABS who left in 1947-48 largely fled on the advice of their Islamic leaders. Very few were "driven out".Those who stayed, were not killed or raped. Israel is 20% Arab as a result.

How do you know where the barrier is going to go when the Israeli govt. has not released the final plans for the barrier? Of the location for the barrier which has already been announced, only 13,000 Palestinians (out of 3.2 million) will be on the "wrong" side of the barrier.

The barrier is purely defensive and is not meant to harm the Palestinian economy in any way. Any harm done in this way, is purely accidental.

UN resolution 242 called for Israel to withdraw from "lands" not from "all lands". They have complied by minor modifications from the Green Line in order to protect as many Jewish citizens as possible from Palestinian terror attacks.

Israel has not and will never "remove the Palestinians from the land." How can you bash Israel for something they are capable of doing (militarily) but have not done?

And to Vinnie: I notice you are hurling more invectives and insults but, yet again, lack a single specific of any "lie" or "misinformation" I have published on this site.

Vinnie---name one "lie" and I will gladly retract it. Name one piece of "misinformation" I have written and I will withdraw it. As usual, you sit in smug arrogance of your "superior" knowledge, yet you can't argue your way out of a paper bag on any real issue using facts and history.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

"I don't think Benny Morris is a good source. The 650,000 Palestinian ARABS who left in 1947-48 largely fled on the advice of their Islamic leaders. Very few were "driven out". Those who stayed, were not killed or raped. Israel is 20% Arab as a result."

The fact that you say "very few were driven out" should be an indication that something did occur. Here is the Haaretz interview with Morris:
www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/20040109bennymorris.html

"How do you know where the barrier is going to go when the Israeli govt. has not released the final plans for the barrier? Of the location for the barrier which has already been announced, only 13,000 Palestinians (out of 3.2 million) will be on the "wrong" side of the barrier. The barrier is purely defensive and is not meant to harm the Palestinian economy in any way. Any harm done in this way, is purely accidental."

From a New York Review article (2/04) by Henry Siegman in which he states "Sharon has approved the continuation of the fence to enclose Palestinians along the eastern (Jordanian) border as well":
www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview
You can also see maps of the fence here:
www.securityfence.mod.gov.il/Pages/ENG/route.htm


Here is an exchange between Morris and Siegman:
www.nybooks.com/articles/17029

"UN resolution 242 called for Israel to withdraw from "lands" not from "all lands". They have complied by minor modifications from the Green Line in order to protect as many Jewish citizens as possible from Palestinian terror attacks."


I believe this point (the language used in the resolution) was addressed elsewhere on this site:
santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/10142/index.php

"Israel has not and will never "remove the Palestinians from the land." How can you bash Israel for something they are capable of doing (militarily) but have not done?"

I am not bashing Israel. I am discussing historical and contemporary events and documents. As you yourself have said:

"Saying criticism equals hating one's country makes as much sense as saying a parent who puts their child on time-out hates that child."
santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/10407/index.php

I beleive that this statement could be expanded to 'saying criticism equals hating *Israel or Israelis* makes as much sense as saying a parent who puts their child on time-out hates that child.
 

Criticism can be motivated by love

reply to Sophie: Thanks for the links. You are right that one can criticize an Israeli policy without advocating for the destruction of that country. In that sense, Israelis have a greater responsibility to criticize Israel than Americans do.

As for 1947-48 when very few of the 650,000 Arabs were driven out of Israel at gunpoint, it is true that some were. They were Arabs who were located along a strategic road between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The Israeli army did go into villages and order the Arab inhabitants to leave. They were ordered across the Jordan border which, at that time, was a few kilometers away.

David Meir-Levi, an Israeli-American historian, has documented some 7 waves of Arab emmigration occurring from 1947 to 1948 with only one wave resulting from Israeli coercion. It did happen. It was not widespread. In most cases, the Israelis begged the Arabs to stay and build the new modern State of Israel together.

Israel has since re-patriated about 170,000 of those displaced Arabs. The only reason, 56 years later, that the Palestinian refugees is even an issue, is because of the Arab countries refusal to assimilate any Palestinians into their own population or to rush to relieve the suffering of their Arab brothers. The camps are, it proves, just too useful as propaganda tools to bash Israel with.
 

I'm afraid it was not so clean and friendly as you describe

Point 1:

I included the article by Siegman because it was given to me by a 70 year old friend who is a 'conservative' Israeli supporter.

What do I mean by conservative? He supports anything that 'makes Israel more secure'. This included (in 2002) the Iraqi war.

When he gave me this article he said something to the effect of "this is the first time someone is talking publically about a second transference"; also remarking that while he was on a kibbutz nobody talked about transference, they talked 'about grapefruit'. By saying this he means a two state solution is not possible. Transference, to him, is a given.

And it is certainly not an uncommon idea.

Point 2:

To assert that the Palestinians leaving their homes had nothing to do with the Israelis is disingenuous or naive. Heavy fighting caused people to flee. Sometimes women and children were evacuated (by the Arab Legion) and the men left the abandoned villages rather than fight. Hazam Nusseibi,(Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948) told the BBC "As soon as [the people] heard that women had been raped at DeirYassin, Palestinians fled in terror."

To deny that atrocities of all sorts occur in war is a stretch. Reread the Morris article.

It is true that the surrounding countries have made no indication that they are willing to offer land to the Palestinians. This would approximate a peace treaty with israel, a recognition of Israeli's right TO the land. But where does this leave the Palestinians? With their backs, quite literally, against the wall.
 

Let's revisit Deir Yassin

Oh the harping on Deir Yassin!!! This is held up as "proof" of Israel's brutality against the Palestinian Arab population.

First, Deir Yassin was a battle. Iraqi soldiers were housed in Deir Yassin and firing on the vital road between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The Irgun had to win the village back for strategic reasons.

The standard procedure for the Israelis entering a village was to play a loudspeaker urging the civilian population to vacate prior to any fighting. There is some evidence that the speaker did not operate properly in Deir Yassin.

No Arab women were raped in Deir Yassin by Israeli soldiers.

About 120 or so people were killed, including men disguised as women.

The Arab nations at the time reported that over 300 had been murdered, including men, women, and children and that the women were raped.

The Arabs thought this would encourage the Arab civilian population to flee (which they wanted) and to stimulate the Arab men to rise up and fight more vigorously against the Israelis.

Part two backfired badly. The Arab men fled at the news as well.

What is interesting is that now the "new historians" now include these fraudelent reports of Deir Yassin by the Arabs at the time as the truth of what really happened.

What really happened was a battle in which Israel triumphed, took a town needed for strategic defense, and while a lot of people did get killed, it was no where near as many as the Arabs reported, did not involve women and children to the extent reported, and there were no rapes.

Why don't you ever write about "Black September" in which during a 10 day period, Jordan killed between 3000 and 5000 Palestinians?

Or in 1985, when the Lebanese militia attacked refugee camps killing 635 and wounded 2000 Palestinians?

Arafat promotes "martyrdom" for Palestinian youths. Where is the protest by the leftists?

But NO!! The leftists have to go all the way back to 1948 to find an Israeli "massacre" to bash Israel with. And they have to distort the record in order to vilify the Israelis.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall


DEIR YASSIN

"What is interesting is that now the "new historians" now include these fraudelent reports of Deir Yassin by the Arabs at the time as the truth of what really happened."

From the site:
PEACE a Mid-East Dialogue Group
www.ariga.com/dialog/

and their discussion of Deir Yassin where they discuss the material you have cited but come to a different conclusion:
www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/dycg.htm

"However in his new book, Righteous Victims, Benny Morris notes that Yizhak Levy, head of the Shai, reported to Haganah headquarters that Lehi members had told him that Irgun soldiers had raped and later murdered a number of girls, though Levy added, "We don't know if this is true."63 Levy did not cite this material in his own book. While this is certainly hearsay evidence, we cannot longer dismiss the rape claims as totally unfounded."

Of course Begin's Irgun and the Stern have been implicated in many war crimes.


WAR CRIMINALS


"Why don't you ever write about "Black September" in which during a 10 day period, Jordan killed between 3000 and 5000 Palestinians?
Or in 1985, when the Lebanese militia attacked refugee camps killing 635 and wounded 2000 Palestinians?"

Both horrible, horrible, despicable tragedies. All who are responsible are war criminals. Do you really feel comfortable bringing up Sabra and Shatila without mentioning Sharon's name?
 

Sabra and Shatila was in 1982

Sophie: I think you are referring to an earlier instance in 1982 to involved Ariel Sharon often called Sabra and Shatila. As you know, no IDF soldier killed anyone that day. The Lebanese Phalanx did the killing in retaliation for a Palestinian terrorist attack a few days prior that killed Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers. Sharon was held responsible by the Israeli govt. because they concluded he should have known what was going to happen and he should have acted to stop it. Not exactly the same as ordering the attack, is it?

No the incident in 1985 that I am referring to had NOTHING to do with Ariel Sharon. It was purely Arab on Arab violence. I'm not surprised you don't know about it.

For at the time, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded.

Pretty bloody violent wouldn't you say? But since Israel could not be blamed, it really doesn't rate as being very newsworthy, does it?
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

My mistake in misreading "Lebanese militia attacked refugee camps" and associating it with 1982 since the militia in 1985 was Syrian backed. Yes of course this is a horrible tragedy.

In regards to Sabra and Shatila.

The indictment of Sharon and his generals AS WELL AS Lebanese offenders goes farther than Sharon "should have known what was going to happen". It is nearly impossible to round up people, killing and raping, under the eyes and ears of the encircling Israelis without Israeli knowledge and cooperation.

I don't agree with you that those who oppose Israli violence condone violence by others. I believe that the subtlties and nuances of discussion are made somewhat impossible by your pedantic and accusatory tone.
 

Re: Criticism can be motivated by love

think of the wall as liberating palistine! it has the rest of the world to explore!
 

Some indymedia contributors should be more pedantic

Sophie: My point, and I think its well documented, is that Indymedia readers tend to blame Israel for everything under the sun, but are silent when it comes to much larger, more violent, more inhumane, more repressive actions on the part of Arab countries.

The fact that you have to go all the way back to Deir Yassin to find a massacre to blame the Israelis for (which occurred at the height of the war between the attacking Arab countries and Israel fighting to prevent their own extermination) just shows some kind of bias.

There are a lot of massacres that are a lot more recent committed by Arab countries which barely rate a snooze by indymedia readers.

Your objection to my research of various issues is telling. You perhaps would prefer if my entries were more like my fellow leftists and limited to emotional name-calling (e.g. the colonialist imperialistic brutal apartheid occupation of Palestinian lands by the Hebrew-speaking people).

I think a little more research on the part of some of the indymedia contributors is in order.

Sophie, you seem like a reasonable person, yet you are on the wrong side of this issue. If you started to research what you write, and found out the truth, you could be pillaried and vilified like I am.

I just have a bigger investment in the truth, in justice, and in righting a wrong than I do in being accepted as one of the crowd.

If this makes my tone accusatory, so be it.

I think lots of people here, at the RCNV, at Free Radio, at WILPF, and at UCSC have a lot of atoning to do. They have been promoting condemnation of Israel with a vengeance. ISM workers from Santa Cruz go and help Palestinians attack the Israelis and then call themselves "peace workers".

I have heard Free Radio commentators accuse Israel of committing genocide against the Palestinians. The commentator said that since the Israelis don't recognize Palestinian nationality (big surprise there since there is no Palestine and never has been) that they were basically "murdering their culture" and since they were murdering their culture, they were basically committing genocide.

This faulty logic is supposed to convince the listener that Hitler's gassing of 6 million Jews is the same as the Israelis skepticism over Palestinian nationality.

It's that kind of attempt to make Israel the bad guy despite the facts that I object to on these pages.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

Interesting retort but I'm going to have to add condescending to the list describing your tone.

First of all you completely ignore my comment about Sharon. "The fact that you have to go all the way back to Deir Yassin" and "If you started to research what you write, and found out the truth, you could be pillaried and vilified like I am." indicates an empathic inability. Sharon represents the current Israeli government and I am not proud of the man. I do not agree with you that there is no Palestine. Read my first comment in this thread. I do not agree that Israel has no blood on her hands.

Secondly, it is difficult for me to criticize Israel. You speak of the holocaust. My ancestors died in this holocaust. I don't know if any escaped to Israel but none who hadn't already left made it to the US . I grew up with lessons, pictures of this. Buying trees for the replanting. My opinions, which are shared by a substantial number of Jews, do not make me "accepted as one of the crowd".

I have a a bone deep interest in the survival of the Jewish people. Those like Richard Perl, Paul Wolfowitz, and Ariel Sharon do not help the cause. The Iraqi invasion does not help the cause. Maybe the 'Jew hating' divide will never be bridged. But facing off with no possiblilty of common ground does nothing to help the cause either. Stop insulting people. Offer your facts, your research. But people do not understand you. They do not understand what you represent because you do not acknowlege them as being creditable, decent in their own opinions.

Lastly, While Palestinians and Jews are both suffering, I believe that the Palestinians are being systematically destroyed. This is not compatible with the values with which I was raised.
 

UN resolution 181 was rejected by the Arabs

sophie: There is no Palestine. UN resolution 181 in 1947 was SOUNDLY REJECTED by the Palestinian Arabs and by the Arab neighboring countries.

Only Israel accepted UN resolution 181.

Its like this. Suppose I offered you a job, with an office, duties, wages, health and dental benefits. Instead of accepting the job, you drove your car through my office window and dumped gasoline on my files.

You're not going to get the job!
Nor is the job offering going to stay on the table for 56 years until you change your mind.

That is the legal situation with the so-called "country" of Palestine.

The Arabs have rejected an independent autonomous country 14 times since 1937 (documented by David Meir-Levi).

The first time the Arabs started to call themselves "Palestinians" was in 1968, twenty years after the birth of Israel!!

And, notably, right after the Arabs were soundly defeated by Israel in 1967 and they were forced to come up with a new tact.

There was absolutely no movement for an independent Palestine in the 19 years in which Jordan ruled the West Bank.

There are no legal borders to Palestine.
There is no government for Palestine.
There is no official language for Palestine.
There is no date to mark the founding of Palestine.
There is no president, prime minister, premier, monarch, or King of Palestine.
there is no constitution for Palestine.
There is no history of a country called Palestine.
There are no Palestinian artifacts to be found.
Palestine does not exist.

The Palestinian Authority was set up in the Oslo accords in 1993. This was phase one of a three phased plan towards an independent state of Palestine. Because of the continued terrorism by Palestinian groups---and the complete refusal of Arafat to reign in the terror groups as mandated by Oslo, they never got past phase 1.

Hence, there is no Palestine.

If the Arabs who live in what was once the British Palestine Mandate wish now to form a new national identity called "Palestinian" that is their right to do so. But to claim that they have actually accomplished independent statehood is completely false.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

The fact that the Jews for the most part (Irgun and and the Stern Gang were exceptions) joyfully accepted the Resolution and the Arabs rejected it should tell you something right off. The latter has been rebelling against the British since (the period most documented) the 1920's precisely because they feared a Jewish migration. In 1948 Arabs were unhappy with the amount and location of the land granted to Israel.


Ben-Gurion stated "after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine" In 1948, Menachem Begin said, "The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever".

It's more like this:

I take your job because my children are starving, homeless, and exposed to unimaginable dangers.
I do it not because I'm a horrible person, but because I'm desperate.
When you become desparate I can help you only to a certain extent.
My own survival is my priority.
 

Disputed territories not Palestinian land

Sophie, Sophie, Sophie. Your quotes are interesting. But they don't mean anything today. They are so much water under the bridge since all of the parties who said them, later changed their views. Menachem Begin later became prime minister. Did he object to the partition then and refuse to serve? NO!

Remember, Palestine was partitioned twice. The first time, the Brits made Jordan (actually trans-jordan) out of what had been promised as a Jewish state. Then, they partitioned the partition again. Divding the Jewish half into halves again. No wonder some Jewish leaders at the time were unhappy with the deal.

You missed my analogy about the job offer.
Certainly the Jews after WWII were desparate, starving, homeless, and exposed to dangers. A Jewish homeland was considered a solution to the Zionists. But the establishment of Israel was done through lobbying, purchase of property, and a UN resolution, not by military conquest.

It was done without displacing the Palestinian Arabs living there at the time. No Arab was ordered to leave (except during battles).

It was the Arabs who rejected the deal and waged war.

You still have not answered my question. When did the land become "Palestinian" land?
Under what legal agreement, title, deed, declaration, treaty, or whatever did the Land of the west bank and Gaza become the property of the Palestinian Arabs?

I claim they never took title to it despite the fact that they were offered the land again and again if they would only make peace with Israel.

Resolution 181 was rejected. that offer is no longer on the table.

The land is disputed territory with no party having a clear title to it.

And looking at the mess of the Palestinian Authority, it should be obvious to all that the Palestinians STILL don't have it together to create their own nation in any kind of functional way.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

Begin, of course, was not going to refuse the office. This does not mean that he changed his views. Your comments are hyperbolic. As a matter of fact you often make unsupported statements and expect people to accept them.

Weizmann accepted the best deal he could get from Churchill (League of Nations Mandate) while looking toward the building of a state.

As 1948 approached Jews owned very little of the land. Of course we are talking about a context in which *very little of the land was owned*. The semitic peoples are historically nomadic within the lands available to them. This land was not won militarily by the Jews, as you say, because the British had done just that.

You don't have to order people to leave an area to make them unwelcome and to limit their economic opportunites. I'm sure you are familiar with some of the (above mentioned) activities by Begin and those like him.

Your last comments in the post above combined with some of your other comments elsewhere on this site are outright racist in tone. I wonder what your true motivation is. It does not seem to be peace as I know it.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Build it higher faster and stronger

" The fact that the Jews for the most part (Irgun and and the Stern Gang were exceptions) joyfully accepted the Resolution and the Arabs rejected it should tell you something right off. "

You got that right Sophie...it should clearly speel out that "palestinians" are a fabrication, invented after combined ARAB forces lost 5 aggressive wars against Israel...
Had the ARABS been successful in ANY ONE of their wars, there would NEVER be a "palestine"...the ArABS living there would be Egyptians, Syrians or Jordanians...
Indeed, today, the majority of "palestinians" hold Jordanian passports
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

Not very many people know about Saudi Arabia's Apartheid Wall being built on its border with Yemen...
Nor do they know about the Apartheid Wall being built by Thailand, which is nearly a mirror of Israel's security fence...
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

"it should clearly speel out that "palestinians" are a fabrication, invented after combined ARAB forces lost 5 aggressive wars against Israel"

The British mandate was called the 'Palestinian Mandate'. The land was divided in two. What you name it or call it doesn't change the fact that people lived there and still live there.

Sharon's government is instituting extreme policies with this wall, one of which is the separation of people from their water supply. Some village wells are now on the other side of the wall. Israel also plans on trading desalinated water for fresh water. Sound fair?
 

Israel is a good country with good values

Sophie. I can tell you care and care deeply for what happens in Israel and to the Jewish people. You want there to be a peaceful coexistance between the Arabs and the Jews. I do too. I don't want any more people to die.

And you are Jewish. So you feel responsible for what Israel does. So many are accusing Israel of doing so many wrong things --- bulldozing houses, shooting children in the street, cutting people off from their water supply. You feel super-responsible BECAUSE you are Jewish.

Jewish values tell you that you are supposed to be working to relieve human suffering, not out causing it.

But, because you care so deeply, you have not been paying attention to the swindle. Cynical people with lots of money who hate the Jews fund a lot of these "peace" organizations and spend umpteen hours going ad nauseum over every move Israel makes. They make up a lot of stuff that just isn't true.

The charges never pan out. Its been smoke and mirrors all along. The Jews are not a bad people. They are a good people. Israel is not a rogue nation trodding on the civil and human rights of the Palestinians.... but a tiny country with lots and lots and lots of internal differences struggling the best it can to survive while always having to stay armed to the teeth so that the Arabs won't wipe them out to a man at their first opportunity.

You called me a racist. That's a pretty serious charge. Are you sure about that? Have you independently investigated any new fact that I have said?

I'm a Bahai. As a Bahai I believe in the unity of mankind. I believe we are all brothers and sisters. As a Bahai I believe that we are different colors, races, and even religions because just as a garden is more beautiful with flowers of many different colors, so the world is more beautiful with people of different colors.

I dont hate Arabs. I hate that they teach their children to hate Jews. I hate that they preach from their mosques the duty of each Muslim to kill his Jew. I hate that they strap explosives on young beautiful teenage boys and girls and send them to their deaths as mass murders of criminal pizza eaters and coffee drinkers.

Golda Meir said that the Arab-Israel wars will end when "the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews."

There is no Palestine. There is only Israel.
Jewish law tells you that you must investigate everything and independently verify your information. I can tell you that you still have some homework to do.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

If one said,"I don't hate Jews. I hate that they teach their children to hate Arabs. I hate that they send their young men to kill Arabs in their towns and villages. I hate that Jews legally permit torture of Arabs and that Jews shoot missiles into Arab houses and demonstrations. I hate that Jewish rabbis and politicians preach racism and speak of "transfer" (ethnic cleansing), as a means of solving the "Palestinian problem" (as Jews such as Ben Gurion called it). I hate that Jews control the water (in the OT) and sell what's left over to the Arabs. I hate that Jews demolish Arab homes after repeatedly refusing them a permit to build". If I said all that, I would be rightly called a racist.
There are some Jews that do these things. There are also some Jews that oppose these acts and some that are unaware of them. The same is true of Arabs. They are humans just like Jews and have the same feelings, needs, intelligence, varying veiwpoints, nationalism or lack of. Some are racist, some are cruel, some are accepting, some are kind. Some are a mix of these things. You belittle and degrade a people when you lump them together and paint them all with the same brush. Whether you are talking about Jews, Arabs, Chinese, Pakistanis, women, queers etc. Becky reveals her racism in her ignorant rhetoric about "Arabs".
If I want to know what is going on in Palestine/Israel, I will not turn to Becky. I trust "peace organizations", such as Yesh Gvul (www.yeshgvul.org) far more. Israeli soldiers who have lived the reality of "service" in the West Bank and Gaza and who have participated in and seen things done to Palestinians that disturbed them so deeply that they cannot participate in it anymore and have become "refuseniks". They are not "making up stuff" and do not "hate the Jews". They love their people and their country, which is precisely why they are speaking out. Nor do they have alot of money. They actually end up suffering financially and socially for their act of refusal to commit aggressive acts in the occupied territories. Check out their website and read about Israelis that are truly committed to their country and to peace.
I think that Becky has some homework to do. She has not read a history book on the Middle East, nor has she been to the area. All her info comes from extreme right wing zealots like those at dafka.org and David Horowitz etc. Despite her claims to have independently verified her info. She thinks the IDF website is a good source. That is like asking the cops what happened after a police shooting and taking their version at face value.
By the way, Golda Meir is a right wing racist who denies the existence and history of the Palestinian people and who has written that the land was empty when Jewish immigrants arrived, an outright lie.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

About the aparthaid wall - what is your opinion on the drastic decrease in terrorism in locations where the wall has been constructed?

Do you assign any blame to the Palestinians, under Yassar Arafat's corrupt leadership? Or Hamas?

When it comes down to it, a wall is no where near as bad as blowing up a market place, or bus full of innocent civilians.
 

Based on lies

Yonni: You wrote: "I don't hate Jews. I hate that they teach their children to hate Arabs.

The Jews don't teach their children to hate Arabs. Can you show me a passage in an Israeli schoolbook which teaches hatred of Arabs? I certainly can show you passages in Palestinian schoolbooks that deny the existance of Israel, call Jews "pigs" and glorify suicide bombers.

"I hate that they send their young men to kill Arabs in their towns and villages."

Israel sends its young men (and Women!!) to defend Israel from constant Arab attack.

"I hate that Jews legally permit torture of Arabs"

Israeli courts have ruled that only sleep deprivation is allowed. All other coercive measures are illegal under Israeli law.

"Jews shoot missiles into Arab houses and demonstrations."

The IDF shoots into houses where armed gunmen are shooting at them. Israel did not shoot at the demonstration in Rafah.

"Jewish rabbis and politicians preach racism and speak of "transfer" (ethnic cleansing), as a means of solving the "Palestinian problem"

Jewish rabbis and politicians have engaged in hundreds of attempts to make peace with the Arabs. No such "tranfer" has occurred despite multiple warnings on these pages that transfer was imminent.

"...(as Jews such as Ben Gurion called it).

What? are you going back to 1952???

"Jews control the water (in the OT) and sell what's left over to the Arabs."

Israel was the country that installed the water system in the first place. they share the water but there are always charges by the Palestinians. Israel is not going to cut off water to 3.2 million people.

"Jews demolish Arab homes after repeatedly refusing them a permit to build"

Jews demolish Arab homes because: 1) it was the home of a suicide bomber 2) armed gunmen repeatedly shoot from that home 3) the home is used as a bomb factory 4) the home is used to plan further attacks against Israeli citizens 5) the home was built without permits often on land belonging to someone else 6) the home is used to conceal a tunnel entrance

Palestinians can apply for permits and have just as much of a chance in prevailing in Israeli courts as any Jew/Israeli does. Many, however, refuse to "cooperate with the Zionist enemy" and go ahead and build without permits.

So Yonni--you see? I don't agree with your premise and if any of what I have written is factually incorrect, let me know. If you just want to call me a racist, naive, ignorant, etc. then just kindly fuck off. You are a useless bag of skin.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

Yes Becky I check your statements. Oftentimes they are among the first few returns in a google search.

You are, of course, free to analyze information in any way you choose. My major concern in having a dialogue with you is that you have rarely responded to facts raised.

The water issue for example.

There is a plan to transport desalinated water from the west coast and to 'trade' this water for the fresher water from the West Bank. This has become a frequent topic of conversation among ardent Israel supporters *in this community* who would never think of contradicting the present Israeli government's intentions or actions.

And yes I believe you have made many statements on this site that are racist (definition - the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.)

BTW I think your psychological profile of me is conjectural at best.
 

Don't buy into the propaganda, Sophie

Sophie: the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is not about water. It is about whether Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish State or whether it will be overrun by Arabs who want to murder every Jew there.

Of course they are going to use every propaganda issue they can pitch. Water is just another one.
Israel has a very large agricultural industry. In California, the most populous state in the Union, only 11% of the water is used for residential use. The rest is for agriculture.

Ditto in Israel. The Israelis will not cut off water to the Palestinians. This does not mean there aren't disputes. Israel is leading the world in new technologies for desalinization.

Sophie---your very existance is due to Jews who had to survive tremendous hardship, discrimination, pogroms, and even genocide. You owe them your life. The very least you can do is try to investigate these issues before you pass judgement on Israel. There are many who hate Jews and have devoted this negative energy into villifying the Israelis with information that is highly questionable.

I have never met you so I don't know what your psychological underpinnings are. I just find Jews who condemn Jews to be a sad phenomenon. Its like all the Jews who came to American, changed their names, and turned secular. Anything to escape the prejudice and the persecution. But justice has nothing to do with it. Justice demands that right-minded people defend Israel from those who spread this kind of propaganda.
 

Water and Land

"The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is not about water."

That's exactly what it's about. Water cannot be separated from land. You show no sign of even having thought about what I said. Until you investigate there is no point in repeating myself.

You say "The Israelis will not cut off water to the Palestinians."

No one has even suggested this.


You say "Of course they are going to use every propaganda issue they can pitch."

This was not pitched. I repeat, this is being discussed among the Jewish community *here* in Santa Cruz. This is where I learned of it.

You have given a strange analysis of what it is to be a Jew. You depict anyone who dissents, or basically disagrees with you, as a self hating naive traitor not in their right mind. I find it odd that you are instructing Jews as to what they must do.

Again, not the way to win friends.
 

Also see: "BECKY'S BRAIN!!: An Amazing 'Interview' With Becky Johnson of Santa Cruz"

-

"BECKY'S BRAIN!!: An Amazing 'Interview' With Becky Johnson of Santa Cruz", by JA

www.indybay.org/news/2005/02/1719944_comment.php

SHE'S A REAL CHARACTER IN SANTA CRUZ!!


For more, later, see (Becky Johnson):

Examiner ad demonizes Palestinian children, shows young girl with gun
santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/14842/index.php


Albert Einstein Condemned Israeli Nazis
santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/15529/index.php


Elise Cohen of The Fellowship Of Reconciliation talks about upcoming delegations to Israel
santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/14711/index.php


... YYYEP...!! SHE'S A *WACKO*!!

-
 

Does Israel steal "Palestinian" water?

Sophie, you are wrong when you say I have not even investigated this issue. Consider the following report. Please DO come back and "correct" any misinformation in this report or add any serious ommissions:

DOES ISRAEL USE 'PALESTINIAN' WATER?

Media coverage of complex and explosive water issues regularly neglects the facts.

By Alex Safian, Camera Media Report, Winter 2000 In recent years, press accounts have charged Israel with unfairly and illegally draining water from "Palestinian aquifers," enabling Israelis to enjoy green lawns, and full swimming pools, while leaving Palestinians with barely enough to drink. Thus, in the summer of 1998, the New York Times reported that for Palestinians:

…most taps ran dry a month ago… That would have spelled misery anywhere, but what has made it worse on the West Bank is that Palestinians cannot help but notice that they are the only ones so parched. There is no sign of a water shortage in the Jewish settlements just outside Hebron. There, and in Israel as a whole, residents still water lawns and wash their cars. (Douglas Jehl, 15 August 1998).

More recently, in a July 27, 1999 story, National Public Radio reported that Israel is:
Violating international law… [by] helping itself to most of the water that runs beneath Palestinian lands… the average Israeli consumes about six times more water than the average Palestinian… Israeli officials say that their policy is to ensure Israelis get sufficient water to live properly and develop economically. It's unfortunate, they say, if there's not enough water left over for the Palestinians.

Other news outlets, such as the BBC and the AP, have reported similarly. But the facts tell a different story, Israel has never "helped itself" to water "beneath Palestinian lands." Israel obtains roughly 30 percent of its water from the Sea of Galilee and the Coastal aquifer, both of which are entirely within Israel's pre-1967 borders. Another 30 percent comes from the Western and Northeastern Aquifers of the Mountain Aquifer system. These aquifers straddle the Green Line separating Israel from the West Bank, but most of the stored water is under pre-1967 Israel, making it easily accessible only in Israel.

Thus, even in the 1950s Israel used 93 percent of the Western Aquifer's water, and 82 percent of the Northeastern Aquifer's water. Today, Israel's share of these aquifers has declined to 83 percent and 80 percent, respectively. That is, under Israeli administration the Palestinian share of these aquifers has actually increased.

In addition, over 40 MCM (million cubic meters) of water per year from sources within Israel is piped over the Green Line for Palestinian use in the West Bank. Ramallah, for example, receives over 5 MCM annually from Israeli sources. Israel sends another 4 MCM annually over its border for Palestinian use in the Gaza Strip. Thus, it is the Palestinians who are using Israeli water.

And not just the Palestinians. Despite its own meager supply, Israel annually provides 600,000 CM of water to ten otherwise dry villages in South Lebanon, and, as a favor to the late King Hussein, more than 55 MCM annually to Jordan. Perhaps no other country, facing the severe shortages that Israel does, has shared so much water with so many of its neighbors.

BECKY: Sophie, considering the number of mainstream sources which have reported that Israel is "stealing" Palestinian water, I can understand why you were so misinformed. In order to get at the truth in this contentious atmoshpere, you really have to dig to get to the bottom of the situation.

Also: Have you read any recent reports? Israel has gotten record rainfall this winter ending 10 years of drought. There is now no reason to fight over water as there is plenty for all. Of course, Palestinians have already blamed Israel for flooding which they claim is caused by the wall!!! Instead of dancing in the streets thanking God for ending 10 years of drought, they are blaming Israel!!

NOTE TO JA: Get a life!
 

Sophie, put up or shut up

SOPHIE WRITES: "You depict anyone who dissents, or basically disagrees with you, as a self hating naive traitor not in their right mind."

Hmmmmmmmm. This is what I wrote to you above:

"But, because you care so deeply, you have not been paying attention to the swindle. Cynical people with lots of money who hate the Jews fund a lot of these "peace" organizations and spend umpteen hours going ad nauseum over every move Israel makes. They make up a lot of stuff that just isn't true."

So where did I call you (or anyone else)a self-hating traitor not in their right mind?

Please post a single example of where I said this. If not, please come in here and post an apology.
 

Re: Justice for Palestine: Tear Down the Apartheid Wall

"spend umpteen hours going ad nauseum over every move.... They make up a lot of stuff that just isn't true."

Sounds *just like you*, BJ... Why did you wait more than SIX MONTHS to reply to Sophie? Are you THAT obsessed?
 

Because they do, I must

To Reader: Because there are so many false or tainted reports out there, I feel moved to try to hold some of you accountable.

There was no special reason for waiting so long to reply to Sophie other than JA had sought it necessary to post his endless repost which he believes is proof I am a whacko. (Frankly, I think he is proving HE is a whacko), but anyway, I looked to see what he had written only to find Sophies completely off-track and ill-informed ramblings---but she is SURE Israel is to blame!!

Kind of sad, really.

Why do I spend umpteen hours writing? I'm a writer. Duh! Somebody on IMC should be concerned about the truth.
 

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